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Blink stalkers + observer(s) can typically force a base race against robo compositions on most maps. You keep an obs near his ledge and a spotter at his front door and blink in to his main any time he tries to move out. If the robo player takes his natural, he opens himself up to harass. The blink player can constantly poke back and forth at both fronts picking off pylons, probes and robo facilities and then blink back to safetly. If the robo player tries to split his force to defend the dual-pronged harass, the blink player abuses his superior mobility to combine his stalkers and isolate the robo player's split forces. Ultimately, the robo player is inevitably frustrated by the constant pestering and moves his whole army as one to attack the blink players base. Initiate base race.
Meanwhile, a smart blink player can design his entire strategy around forcing and winning a base race. Instead of taking his natural, he spreads out his bases on opposite corners of the map and takes islands if they're available. Because he never plans to fight head on, he can skimp somewhat on army spending in the mid-game and take extra bases. These tactics give the blink player a huge advantage in the base race. The blink player will be in the robo player's main as soon as the robo player leave his base, allowing the blink player to take out the robo player's production and economy before the robo player makes it across the map. This allows the blink player 2-3 extra rounds of production. The robo player will also have taken his natural allowing the blink player to trade his main for the robo player's main and natural. This will leave the blink player with 2 spread out mining bases while the robo player will be on 0 bases. The blink player also has a huge advantage in mobility which can pin a robo player's army to his last remaining structures while the blink player is free to split his forces.
If the robo player attacks too early, the extra rounds of production may give the blink player the superior army which is an auto-win for the blink player. If the robo player waits too long, the blink player will greatly out-macro the robo player with double the bases which is nearly an auto-win for the blink player.
I've played 10+ games at high diamond, and this works really really well. I'm not sure what a robo player's best response is. Going collosus+blink stalker and accepting a macro disadvantage?
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Would depend a lot on the map wouldn't it? I don't see this working on SoW for instance.
But assuming I was already going robo either I'd split my forces up if I had enough of any army or turtle on 1-base for a bit until you can get enough. I also would get charge instead of rushing to colossi since colossi in few numbers w/o a heavy immortal support gets picked off by blink stalkers quite easily. Then I would keep a group of chargelots in my main which will rip apart any stalkers blinking up there since blink will be on cooldown.
Other things I might do are proxy pylons in/near your base (which is good to do vs any sort of contain) as well as attempting to snipe your observer.
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KcDc, If you harass me with blink stalkers, I save up 400 minerals, pull all my probes and stomp you with 3+ colossus( this has happened to me in games, and this is what I have learned from myself and from professional players which I have asked )
EDIT:: I take your main instead of my natural.
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The first thing I'd try is just building lots of obs. If you can remove their ability to blink around your ramp you are in a lot less danger.
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On January 07 2011 03:42 Skyro wrote:
Would depend a lot on the map wouldn't it? I don't see this working on SoW for instance.
But assuming I was already going robo either I'd split my forces up if I had enough of any army or turtle on 1-base for a bit until you can get enough. I also would get charge instead of rushing to colossi since colossi in few numbers w/o a heavy immortal support gets picked off by blink stalkers quite easily. Then I would keep a group of chargelots in my main which will rip apart any stalkers blinking up there since blink will be on cooldown.
Other things I might do are proxy pylons in/near your base (which is good to do vs any sort of contain) as well as attempting to snipe your observer.
Yeah, SoW doesn't work. I've had a lot of success with it on LT and XNC. I've also lost to it multiple times on Metal. It works best on maps where there's a big cliff to blink over that's relatively far away from the ramp and natural.
As for leaving a force to defend your main, it's harder than you'd think to split your army effectively. Blink stalker is only a little weaker than robo, and with its mobility advantage, the blink player chooses when and where to engage. If robo splits his forces, blink can bring all of his stalkers together and attack the smaller force, so in order for the split to work as intended, the robo player needs to double the blink player's army strength so that each force can handle the full blink force. Otherwise, you're just giving the blink player free units.
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On January 07 2011 04:18 Kefka.dancingmad wrote:
KcDc, If you harass me with blink stalkers, I save up 400 minerals, pull all my probes and stomp you with 3+ colossus( this has happened to me in games, and this is what I have learned from myself and from professional players which I have asked )
EDIT:: I take your main instead of my natural.
Taking the opponent's main is a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem. The blink player is still more mobile and spread out than you are.
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Also, if people haven't tried this on ladder, you really should if only to see how it works. It's a little strange to make your gameplan around the idea that you'll be losing your main, but it's surprisingly effective. If nothing else, people on ladder don't respond to it well, and you'll get a lot of comeback wins picking off free units.
I don't know if a strategy involving losing your main should be your go-to build, but it's a great way to fight back into a game after a 3-gate blink rush fails. You just get a robo facility and take spread out expansions putting a few gateways in each base and suddenly, your paper army is incredibly hard to beat.
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Can you upload the replays? It sounds interesting, but I think that it is pretty hard to actually contain the opponent at one base if he snipes your observer. And once the observer is gone, the robo player can just chase the blink stalker player away.
Something he can also use for instance is a warp prism drop while reinforcing it. Once the blink stalker army is forced to go home to defend it is basically game over as he will be overrun by colossi.
Edit: It would be interesting to try at ladder, but every game is either cannonrush or 4gate.
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On January 07 2011 07:19 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 03:42 Skyro wrote:
Would depend a lot on the map wouldn't it? I don't see this working on SoW for instance.
But assuming I was already going robo either I'd split my forces up if I had enough of any army or turtle on 1-base for a bit until you can get enough. I also would get charge instead of rushing to colossi since colossi in few numbers w/o a heavy immortal support gets picked off by blink stalkers quite easily. Then I would keep a group of chargelots in my main which will rip apart any stalkers blinking up there since blink will be on cooldown.
Other things I might do are proxy pylons in/near your base (which is good to do vs any sort of contain) as well as attempting to snipe your observer. Yeah, SoW doesn't work. I've had a lot of success with it on LT and XNC. I've also lost to it multiple times on Metal. It works best on maps where there's a big cliff to blink over that's relatively far away from the ramp and natural. As for leaving a force to defend your main, it's harder than you'd think to split your army effectively. Blink stalker is only a little weaker than robo, and with its mobility advantage, the blink player chooses when and where to engage. If robo splits his forces, blink can bring all of his stalkers together and attack the smaller force, so in order for the split to work as intended, the robo player needs to double the blink player's army strength so that each force can handle the full blink force. Otherwise, you're just giving the blink player free units.
I agree I've both tried it and played against it and it will cause a lot of mistakes from players who are not used to dealing with it. But at the same time if your strategy is to base trade don't you kind of have to expand yourself too? There's no sense of urgency to expand or push out unless you make them think you are going to win via superior economy.
But I'm surprised you didn't list Jungle Basin as one of the maps you have success on. It's like tailormade for early blink abuse since you don't need an obs to blink into their natural.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Would be interested in seeing some reps actually.
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On January 07 2011 08:02 Plexa wrote:
Would be interested in seeing some reps actually.
As am I, would be nice to see some examples of this in action.
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did a similar strat once in PvT. In LT i would expand to another main, keep like 2 sentrys in each ramp to continually ff and with like 3/4 phoenix i would force some turrets, counter drops and always keep track of Ts army. problem was that terran would only need 1/3 of his army to kill all my stalkers (marauders imba ^^).
I also used blink in PvP on shakuras (IMO the perfect map for this), kill the backdoors rocks and attack his front and back randomly and then try to out macro him with 3 bases.
this builds really excels against less skill oponnents, against top players they are kinda gimmick...
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played against some guy at my mid diamondish level who did this against my robo build on LT. While 3gate robo crushes this on one base, an expo makes it amazingly annoying to defend, with the only advantage being that stalkers take absolute ages to kill a nexus, so an expo is relatively safe. The key to defend this on 2 bases I think is to leave zealots in the main, while immortals and stalkers defend the expo. The reasoning behind this is that any stalkers that blink into the main can be held off by zealots for quite some time while the rest of the army gets up, and stalkers don't really ever want to go up against a multiple immortals. The key is just to let econ and tech advantage kick in with multiple robo's until immortals hit high enough numbers to just waste stalkers.
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I've experimented with using blink some in PvP but never used it much like this. I would love to see a replay demonstrating this.
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United States8476 Posts
oGsMC and NsPGenius's response to blink stalker from a robo build is to go twilight council. In MC's case, when his observer scouts the enemy base, he notes whether there's robo or not. If there's a robo he goes blink himself. With blink, he breaks his contain. If his opponent put up an expo already, push the expo. If not, put up your own expo and gain an economy lead. The thing is, if your opponent invests enough minerals to go 3 gate blink stalker plus a robo, his expand will be somewhat late.
Btw these are the games I'm referring to:
oGsMC vs Pooh on xelnaga, gisado KOTH day 2, game 3-this is probably the best demonstration of this counter strategy.
oGsMC vs some other protoss on xelnaga, gisado KOTH
NexGenius vs AnyproPrime on LT, GSL code S
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Thanks I really wanted to try this last night and it was the first time in the history of Starcraft that I didn't get ANY pvp's. Ill try again later.
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Any decent player will have an observer before you, possibly even 2, and will snipe yours. You can't contain the player without the observer as only 2 immortals + gateways units will totally wreck you...
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When i start a game, i aim for a solid win. Not a base race.
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On January 07 2011 23:15 PatouPower wrote:
Any decent player will have an observer before you, possibly even 2, and will snipe yours. You can't contain the player without the observer as only 2 immortals + gateways units will totally wreck you...
I'm pretty sure blink stalkers have the advantage when it comes to observer sniping.
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Certain openings end up in base races depending on your opponents moves; I am not quite convinced that in this situation the blink player wins, based on the trading mains thing (this has happened to me). I don't think the blink player can fight head on and win, which eventually must happen at some point.
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On January 07 2011 23:25 NeoAlmost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:15 PatouPower wrote:
Any decent player will have an observer before you, possibly even 2, and will snipe yours. You can't contain the player without the observer as only 2 immortals + gateways units will totally wreck you... I'm pretty sure blink stalkers have the advantage when it comes to observer sniping.
Hah, yeah, was going to say the same. Having the earlier obs isn't an advantage. You just have to be more alert and get your units there quicker. Also, the blink player isn't using his robo, so it's less painful to make observers.
I have a couple replays I could upload, but I'm not very practiced with the strategy, so it's not at all clean. In the first replay, I make a mistake by taking my natural. My third is wisely spread out which wins me the game, but imagine how much stronger my position would have been had I taken the two unused mains as my 2nd and 3rd.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179046.jpg)
In the other game, I was waaaaaay behind after not realizing he had an expo for a while, blinking into death mutliple times, and just generally playing poorly. I also stupidly cut economy which I do when I'm planning to defend my base, since you need every possible unit against the collosus timing push. However, he tried to take multiple expansions and split his army to defend them, so I was eventually able to whittle him down for the win. I played terribly, but it shows how you can move your stalkers around to get free kills even when you're way behind. There's a lot of movement, so it's a fairly entertaining game.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179050.jpg)
If I play a cleaner game, I'll upload that too.
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Good fortune. The first game I played today was a PvP where I went blink and he went robo. I felt a little vulnerable before my obs got to his base, but once it was there, I was pretty sure I'd win. I managed to pin him in his base until I was spread out across the 3 mains, and when I took the island, he had no way to win a base race. The way it worked out, he left my macro unchecked for too long and I was able to defend comfortably rather than base racing, but I would have liked my chances had he forced the base race earlier.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179071.jpg)
Pick holes in the strategy. I think the best way to deal with it is probably to either all-in ASAP with 1 collosus to break forcefields and bring probes to take the opponent's main or to get blink yourself.
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On January 07 2011 06:17 sti wrote:
The first thing I'd try is just building lots of obs. If you can remove their ability to blink around your ramp you are in a lot less danger.
If using Blink Stalkers/ Obs, you can pick these "obs" you will have around your base. Which will cause you more gas to build more, which will lower your collosi count.
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And again:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-179092.jpg)
This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units.
For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well.
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I'd like to see some replays vs good 4 gates. all blink stalker builds are kind of designed around beating robo-based builds through good timing. Now you're adding a robo and trying not to fight them, which makes sense, but if they are taking the fight to you before you have blink what is your angle?
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 07 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:
Blink stalkers + observer(s) can typically force a base race against robo compositions on most maps. You keep an obs near his ledge and a spotter at his front door and blink in to his main any time he tries to move out. If the robo player takes his natural, he opens himself up to harass. The blink player can constantly poke back and forth at both fronts picking off pylons, probes and robo facilities and then blink back to safetly. If the robo player tries to split his force to defend the dual-pronged harass, the blink player abuses his superior mobility to combine his stalkers and isolate the robo player's split forces. Ultimately, the robo player is inevitably frustrated by the constant pestering and moves his whole army as one to attack the blink players base. Initiate base race.
Meanwhile, a smart blink player can design his entire strategy around forcing and winning a base race. Instead of taking his natural, he spreads out his bases on opposite corners of the map and takes islands if they're available. Because he never plans to fight head on, he can skimp somewhat on army spending in the mid-game and take extra bases. These tactics give the blink player a huge advantage in the base race. The blink player will be in the robo player's main as soon as the robo player leave his base, allowing the blink player to take out the robo player's production and economy before the robo player makes it across the map. This allows the blink player 2-3 extra rounds of production. The robo player will also have taken his natural allowing the blink player to trade his main for the robo player's main and natural. This will leave the blink player with 2 spread out mining bases while the robo player will be on 0 bases. The blink player also has a huge advantage in mobility which can pin a robo player's army to his last remaining structures while the blink player is free to split his forces.
If the robo player attacks too early, the extra rounds of production may give the blink player the superior army which is an auto-win for the blink player. If the robo player waits too long, the blink player will greatly out-macro the robo player with double the bases which is nearly an auto-win for the blink player.
I've played 10+ games at high diamond, and this works really really well. I'm not sure what a robo player's best response is. Going collosus+blink stalker and accepting a macro disadvantage?
You can do that, or you can just blink up, snipe the Immortal and win.
This does seem like a reasonable way to go about it if you have to abort your attack tho, since you are quite a long way behind.
Best responce for the robo player? Scout the hidden expos and forse the blink player in to a defencive position with harassment before attacking with the bulk of his army.
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On January 07 2011 23:23 Uni1987 wrote:
When i start a game, i aim for a solid win. Not a base race.
A base trade that leads to a victory is a straight win just like any other. Will be trying this btw, thanks kcdc
How does this run vs 4gate though?
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What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 05:17 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:23 Uni1987 wrote:
When i start a game, i aim for a solid win. Not a base race. A base trade that leads to a victory is a straight win just like any other. Will be trying this btw, thanks kcdc
No he has a point. I disagree with any gameplan that involves the "loose my whole fucking base" transition. Thats why I will not expand before I attack with blink stalkers, like OP did, rather use his strategy as a back-up plan in case I get stoped.
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough.
In gold league - sure.
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I like to push early with my first immortal, zealot, stalker, and proxy pylon, so I'd like to ask: does this build have a long startup time?
I've seen 4 gate pushes with ~6-8 stalkers, which would likely beat the push that I use, but with the need for blink and robo, it would drop to 3-4 stalkers which could leave you open to an early push unless you use sentries, at which point I fall back to get another immortal and an observer- which still beats blink stalker composition (immortals are supposed to be the hard counter, no?) so tell me, does this sort of build work against this?
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Ok, I've been using this today as my go-to PvP build to generate replays, and in non-4 gate games, I believe I've won 5 of 5. The closest I've been to losing was when my opponent went immortal-blink stalker. He managed to take out all of my bases and still had the stronger army, but having my extra base longer left with with a lot of minerals and scattered probes to buy time. He was down to 1 building and was guarding it with a force I couldn't beat, but I blinked in from an unexpected angle and was able to snipe it for the win. When I wind up going robo against bilnk, I'll be teching blink for sure. It was definitely a good response.
As for 4-gate, I don't recommend going straight to blink against a 1-gas opponent, particularly one that's saved chrono or has cut probes. The first priority in PvP is always holding the 4 gate. The nice thing about this spread/harass transition, however, is that unlike the 3-gate blink all-in, you don't need to hit that super-early timing window with blink where he only has 1 immortal. If it takes you a minute or 2 longer to get blink, your attack will suck, but you just blink back, make a robo and hide an expansion.
You also don't have to open blink to use this as a transition. You could open with an eco 4-gate or 3-gate and get blink and an obs after your attack dies down. Test timings. This spreading out and base racing is definitely a workable strategy, but there's a lot of ways to get there.
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[B]
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was.
He had to get blink because Anypro added a sentry so he couldnt come down his ramp, without getting blink right away he had no way of breaking the contain and killing anypro. I didnt notice the TC he built when watching the VoD so i thought he was screwed for sure!
If you look at it like this... okay... anypro spends 400 on a nexus + some probes and stuff, lets say 800 resources for now is dumped into this expansion. So now lets say, Genius scouts the expansion with his observer and knows anypro has spent these resources on the expo. He has X amount of time to get over there before the expo kicks in and he just outright loses to macro. He tries to push down ramp without blink against anypros blink stalker army. Not only is he against a better tactical unit, but the forcefield anypro can throw down from the single sentry he built, can complete eliminate that 800 resource sink he has tied up in an expansion... Without getting blink when he did, Genius loses that game badly. I lost a PvP the exact same way by making the wrong decision earlier in the day, watched that, watched my replays, and realized with blink i had him but for the sentries.... you cant afford to get cut in half because it completely mitigates the disadvantage suffered from putting that expansion down.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:41 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
By the way, if you watch Genius VS Anypro in GSL, Genius after holding off blink stalkers with Immortals went on to get blink of his own and crush the FE. In the interview he said something about why but I cant quite recall what the reason was. He had to get blink because Anypro added a sentry so he couldnt come down his ramp, without getting blink right away he had no way of breaking the contain and killing anypro. I didnt notice the TC he built when watching the VoD so i thought he was screwed for sure! If you look at it like this... okay... anypro spends 400 on a nexus + some probes and stuff, lets say 800 resources for now is dumped into this expansion. So now lets say, Genius scouts the expansion with his observer and knows anypro has spent these resources on the expo. He has X amount of time to get over there before the expo kicks in and he just outright loses to macro. He tries to push down ramp without blink against anypros blink stalker army. Not only is he against a better tactical unit, but the forcefield anypro can throw down from the single sentry he built, can complete eliminate that 800 resource sink he has tied up in an expansion... Without getting blink when he did, Genius loses that game badly. I lost a PvP the exact same way by making the wrong decision earlier in the day, watched that, watched my replays, and realized with blink i had him but the sentries you cant afford to get cut in half because it completely mitigates the disadvantage suffered from putting that expansion down.
You know there are other ways of breaking the sentry contain when you have a robo without geting blink? (Hint: there are atleast 2 that can be made from the robo, one of them takes as long as blink and the other takes only about 30s to get).
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 08 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:And again: This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units. For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well.
Hey its PvP  that should explain everything haha
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so you would rather elevator your units so he can forcefield you out of your own base and just kill you or tech to collossuss while his expansion kicks in rather than getting an ability that increases the efficiency of most of your units? I stand by my opinion that he made the exact correct decision.
Lets say you spend 20 seconds elevatoring down and he walks into your base. Do you elevator back up over 20 seconds why his stalkers kill your base? Does he one round your warp prism and keep your ramp forcefielded?
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Interesting, thanks for sharing 
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:
so you would rather elevator your units so he can forcefield you out of your own base and just kill you or tech to collossuss while his expansion kicks in rather than getting an ability that increases the efficiency of most of your units? I stand by my opinion that he made the exact correct decision.
Lets say you spend 20 seconds elevatoring down and he walks into your base. Do you elevator back up over 20 seconds why his stalkers kill your base? Does he one round your warp prism and keep your ramp forcefielded?
Lets say you use your brain, and FF your own ramp so he can not go up after/while your elevator out.
Lets say teching to colossus when you have a robo out is faster then geting blink when you have no TC.
I dont object that he made a correct desision, question is why.
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When you have immortals, your army is strong but immobile when compared to a blink composition. Collosi help deal with the mobility issue with their range and cliff-walking, but the tech is expensive, so it doesn't help your strength much. Blink helps more with the mobility issue but helps your strength very little. If you don't already have the robo bay, I'd go for blink.
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On January 08 2011 06:50 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:19 kcdc wrote:And again: This guy's pretty decent--was in the last NA Top 200 for what that's worth. I've played against him a lot. His response is a little better. He's aggressive immediately and it quickly comes down to a real base race. I win because blink stalkers are awesome at base races and my mobility allows me to choose when we trade units. For a gameplan that involves Losing Your Whole Fucking Base(TM), this strategy works stupidly well. Hey its PvP that should explain everything haha
Have you tried this out yet? I'd like to see what other people do with the idea.
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If you want to force a base trade I can just pull all my probes and attack while taking your nat as my base(since your main is probably mined out by a decent amount). You can then kill my base while I kill your base and your probes. The whole getting expos around the map really relies on your opponent not scouting and killing them.
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It's my go to build when play as Protoss in 3v3 on Quicksand, except that I incorporate a few lance upgraded Colossi with it since I have to deal with a number of Slings.
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On January 08 2011 05:47 Tsabo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough. In gold league - sure.
And 2500+ diamond. (Current rank)
Though I am thinking that my strategies would be improved if I in fact got blink on some stalkers myself...
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 11:27 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 05:47 Tsabo wrote:On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough. In gold league - sure. And 2500+ diamond. (Current rank) Though I am thinking that my strategies would be improved if I in fact got blink on some stalkers myself...
Ok I was hoping I do not have to go over this. Seems like everyone and thier grandmother is 2500 diamond nowdays.
I mean, the answer to the strategy in your first paragraph of the post is right there, in the second paragraph ? Yet bouth are bad.
1) Cannons cant stop blink harass, but blink is great against warp prism/air harass. As long as you try to defend blink harass every time you go out of your base you will fall behind in eceomy very fast.
2) Colossi deastroy zealots/stalkers. Without a huge economic lead there is no way your "sandwitch" will work, you will loose your whole army and it wont matter you killed his probes. Having said that, there is no way to open blink and get a huge economic lead over a robo opening.
3) The part about blocking chokes with blink stalkers makes no sense.
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Read like the first page so I dont no if anyone has said this since. But dont go robo/Observer 2-3 sentry+ hallucinate should provide enough hallos to cliff jump enough and have the advantage of potentially just holding them out of your main.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 16:17 MooMOo wrote:
Read like the first page so I dont no if anyone has said this since. But dont go robo/Observer 2-3 sentry+ hallucinate should provide enough hallos to cliff jump enough and have the advantage of potentially just holding them out of your main.
Untill they get colossus or blink of their own. And then you end up wishing you had the robo.
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On January 08 2011 16:07 Tsabo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 11:27 GoldenH wrote:On January 08 2011 05:47 Tsabo wrote:On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough. In gold league - sure. And 2500+ diamond. (Current rank) Though I am thinking that my strategies would be improved if I in fact got blink on some stalkers myself... Ok I was hoping I do not have to go over this. Seems like everyone and thier grandmother is 2500 diamond nowdays. I mean, the answer to the strategy in your first paragraph of the post is right there, in the second paragraph ? Yet bouth are bad. 1) Cannons cant stop blink harass, but blink is great against warp prism/air harass. As long as you try to defend blink harass every time you go out of your base you will fall behind in eceomy very fast. 2) Colossi deastroy zealots/stalkers. Without a huge economic lead there is no way your "sandwitch" will work, you will loose your whole army and it wont matter you killed his probes. Having said that, there is no way to open blink and get a huge economic lead over a robo opening. 3) The part about blocking chokes with blink stalkers makes no sense.
Still there's a world of difference between 2500 diamond (especially if you didn't use cheesy all-ins to get it) and gold, mr. hyperbole
You seem really stuck in the mindset that things have counters. Colossi might destroy stalkers.... if they're not blinked on top of them spread out so there's no splash. Blink Stalkers might be great for chasing down warp prisms, unless you have no stalkers there at all, in which case, they work pretty damn well. It's like my zergy friend says when I once complained I couldn't warp prism harass him when he was going mass muta, "Make it work."
But it feels to me like blink stalkers is the thing you have to make work with more resources if you're mixing robo into it.
I guess you've never done/seen blink surround thing in action, which is a shame. Nobody ever does it to me, perhaps its a tactic unique to me, either because it's horrible or because its awesome
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http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125551-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
here is a replay between i (2100) and a 2500 guy who tries to do this strat. i'm not saying we're both amazing pro players or anything, but i was able to eventually win by trying to keep observers to spot when he was going to harass my main, and splitting up my army. keeping half your army with a couple of colossus can totally shut down entire blink stalker forces, while you use the other half to harass his expos. he probably would have done much better if he expanded first at 9 o'clock, but i think he played fairly well. i was almost getting to the point where i wanted to base trade but i pulled back at one point and just sacced my support bay and a few other buildings. i'm just posting this replay to see this particular strat in action and make any comments regarding what he should have done better, etc.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:29 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 16:07 Tsabo wrote:On January 08 2011 11:27 GoldenH wrote:On January 08 2011 05:47 Tsabo wrote:On January 08 2011 05:31 GoldenH wrote:
What about cannons? I find 4-5 cannons by my natural and keeping my army below my main base works really well. I don't actually need to move out with my army (A warp prism or a stargate to build phoenix or speedray for harassment will either prevent you from expanding or give me room to take my third), and when I do, blink stalkers really aren't that much faster that they can flank my army and get to my base before my army gets back to my base.
That said blink stalkers are quite potent against robo builds, especially if you just switch to charge at some point. It can really be tough to deal with... if the robo player tries to base trade, and you jump in, kill off some probes and critical pylons, and then build a bunch of stalkers to sandwhich between his army and a wave of zealots, it's super effective... I actually use blink stalkers to block chokes quite a bit. since force field range is not always long enough. In gold league - sure. And 2500+ diamond. (Current rank) Though I am thinking that my strategies would be improved if I in fact got blink on some stalkers myself... Ok I was hoping I do not have to go over this. Seems like everyone and thier grandmother is 2500 diamond nowdays. I mean, the answer to the strategy in your first paragraph of the post is right there, in the second paragraph ? Yet bouth are bad. 1) Cannons cant stop blink harass, but blink is great against warp prism/air harass. As long as you try to defend blink harass every time you go out of your base you will fall behind in eceomy very fast. 2) Colossi deastroy zealots/stalkers. Without a huge economic lead there is no way your "sandwitch" will work, you will loose your whole army and it wont matter you killed his probes. Having said that, there is no way to open blink and get a huge economic lead over a robo opening. 3) The part about blocking chokes with blink stalkers makes no sense. Still there's a world of difference between 2500 diamond (especially if you didn't use cheesy all-ins to get it) and gold, mr. hyperbole You seem really stuck in the mindset that things have counters. Colossi might destroy stalkers.... if they're not blinked on top of them spread out so there's no splash. Blink Stalkers might be great for chasing down warp prisms, unless you have no stalkers there at all, in which case, they work pretty damn well. It's like my zergy friend says when I once complained I couldn't warp prism harass him when he was going mass muta, "Make it work." But it feels to me like blink stalkers is the thing you have to make work with more resources if you're mixing robo into it. I guess you've never done/seen blink surround thing in action, which is a shame. Nobody ever does it to me, perhaps its a tactic unique to me, either because it's horrible or because its awesome
You seem to have not read the OP, the thread or even the post you quoted.
Btw, blinking on top of colossus only works if the colossus ball is not controled properly.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:54 bowyert wrote:http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/125551-1v1-protoss-lost-templehere is a replay between i (2100) and a 2500 guy who tries to do this strat. i'm not saying we're both amazing pro players or anything, but i was able to eventually win by trying to keep observers to spot when he was going to harass my main, and splitting up my army. keeping half your army with a couple of colossus can totally shut down entire blink stalker forces, while you use the other half to harass his expos. he probably would have done much better if he expanded first at 9 o'clock, but i think he played fairly well. i was almost getting to the point where i wanted to base trade but i pulled back at one point and just sacced my support bay and a few other buildings. i'm just posting this replay to see this particular strat in action and make any comments regarding what he should have done better, etc.
Well your opponent could have controled his stalkers alot better, taken the safe island expantion, and harassed at multiple locations closer to the end.
In the end it came down to poor control resulting in loosing too many stalkers during the game, he lost 10k more resourses then you, and general good defence on your part.
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(P)밥만잘먹더라_vs_(P)약먹은년_metalopolis_sc2rep_com_20110105
after reading the thread title I quickly scanned the thread and didn't see this replay posted already, apologies if it was.
It's hardly an example of straight early game blink vs. robo (transitions into it from a deflected cannon rush in close air positions on Metalopolis), however towards the end is a great demonstration of how blink harass + FFs at the main ramp on metalopolis can confound a robo army, ultimately leading to an attempted base trade.
At 14:10 the red protoss (robo focus with immortals) has neutralized blue's attempt to take his (blue's) first expansion at the gold, and after placing a nexus at his natural red is15 food ahead.
Using some very cool tactical-/positioning-/micro-based play with blink stalkers and strong forcefields, blue reverses a widening deficit and the last couple minutes are very fun to watch.
I'm not sure who these two korean players are or if the replay is necessarily a fair reflection of this match-up, but if you're interested in seeing how this kind of blink harass can be effective, definitely watch this replay.
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On January 08 2011 07:24 Tsabo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:
so you would rather elevator your units so he can forcefield you out of your own base and just kill you or tech to collossuss while his expansion kicks in rather than getting an ability that increases the efficiency of most of your units? I stand by my opinion that he made the exact correct decision.
Lets say you spend 20 seconds elevatoring down and he walks into your base. Do you elevator back up over 20 seconds why his stalkers kill your base? Does he one round your warp prism and keep your ramp forcefielded? Lets say you use your brain, and FF your own ramp so he can not go up after/while your elevator out. Lets say teching to colossus when you have a robo out is faster then geting blink when you have no TC. I dont object that he made a correct desision, question is why.
Because only blink stalkers are able to effectively fight other blink stalkers. He could have exactly 1 collossus without range in the time it would take to convert his already possessed stalker ball. So ya he can stomp through ff but then get owned when he gets blink surrounded.
And ff your ramp to elevator your army out? That's such a bad tactical move. You would be initiating a base race you can't win.
I can see warp prism harass potentially weakening the contain but not some elevator trick...not exactly reliable
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This strategy just keeps on winning for me. I still lose to cannon rushes and 4 gates (it's PvP), but I haven't lost to a straight robo player in quite a while. Those collosus timing pushes aren't nearly as scary when you realize that trading bases is a better play than trying to defend.
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Man, in a couple of those games it looks like you absolutely STEAL a win. Especially the second one. I think if he had split his force to keep your split forces at bay, then later kept his colossi protected instead of letting you snipe all 4 of them like that he couldn't taken it.
I don't play Protoss and I'm not good... but how do you think a transition to phoenixes would handle your strategy? Would the scouting, ability to deny observers, and the supplement of the graviton beam to your fighting force justify the expense? I can't think of anything else besides the obvious (ie: just transition to fight fire with fire).
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This happened to me the other day on Blistering Sands. I was going blink harass and he went 3 gate 1 robo I think. I was blinking into his base right when he hit my rocks. He pulled back some and then figured out he couldnt chase down my stalkers. So he went in and my base with his sentries, couple immortals, stalkers, few zealots.
I was trying to expand when he had my base practically dead before he pulled. But his 2nd rush went past my expansion. He went to finish my base off while I went after his. I got 1 probe out with 800 minerals, he didnt get any probes out. I did save it, will post it later.
(1000s diamonds, matched with usually 1500-2300 diamonds. And my micro gone to crap adjusting to 24" monitor vs 17" CRT. And by know means great.)
Was a fun game.
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I like this strat and it works very well but I do think it's very map dependant and only works about half the time.
Small and straightforward maps like close spawn on LT/meta, steppes, blistering etc are too small for this too work imo as the other player can simply get a superior colossi army while defending and then stomp your base quicker then you can kill theirs. A good colossus mass also really helps to punish the stalker blink in.
Instead of stalkers with a obs for scouting i prefer this with a phoenix for scouting though. The phoenix(es) are much faster and can also do a good job in small battle's actually focussing a colossi or lifting a immortal. It does make everything riskier against DT's but if you scout really active you should have a good sense if DT are coming up or not.
I really expect this strategy to dominate in the next patch though as voidrays become better against colossi then. Instead of playing a base trading game you can simply outexpand and go with voidray, phoenix, stalker, chargelot then which will probably do quite well against robo units then.
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This strategy qualifies for next week's fun day Monday. Someone should do an awesome base race and submit it.
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On January 20 2011 05:32 kcdc wrote:
This strategy qualifies for next week's fun day Monday. Someone should do an awesome base race and submit it.
I already submitted a couple from a few days ago ^^
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I've gotten pretty good with this strategy. It's now my strongest PvP build. I like to open 3 gate blink (zealot, stalker, stalker, sentry to defend 4 gate if they don't take their second gas early) and take my expansion as I harass the ramp with blink micro. After my expansion, I immediately start my robo for observers. I prefer to start with the 3 gate blink timing because it beats 4 gate (if you respond correctly) and it gives you a good chance to kill FE builds. The base race strategy also allows you to beat robo if you control well, so the only build you're really weak against is a DT rush.
In my experience, you want them to initiate the base race in the few minutes after you've transferred probes to your expansion. If they go earlier than that, you won't have an extra base to fall back on. If they turtle on 2 bases until they have a huge mass of collosi, they'll be able to cut off angles with their range and pick off stalkers as you try to move around them to harass. If they're turtling too long and you're not able to pick off robos and collosi, you should transition to void rays. By this time, you should have ~4 bases against their two, so pump a ton of voids and then bait their army into the middle of the map with your stalkers where you can flank their collosi with void rays and chargelots. You don't need the battle to be cost-efficient; you just need to lower their collosus count. Trade voids for collosi, but try to keep stalkers alive. Warp in a new army of stalkers and then go back to harass.
My most recent replay:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-184110.jpg)
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I faced this before. Close game, I won. Only because my army was huge compared to his. I actually did go and build in his main.
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Seems like a cool build, if nothing else it would be worth trying for Funday Monday. Checking out the replays when I get home tonight.
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On January 27 2011 03:59 Vauld wrote:
Seems like a cool build, if nothing else it would be worth trying for Funday Monday. Checking out the replays when I get home tonight.
Check the most recent one I just posted first. I've gotten a lot better at it since I wrote the OP.
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On January 27 2011 03:24 travis wrote:
I faced this before. Close game, I won. Only because my army was huge compared to his. I actually did go and build in his main.
There's a critical threshold where if the robo player doubles the blink player's army strength, the robo player can split his army and end the game quickly by killing the blink player's bases while defending his own. That can happen if the blink player gets sloppy and loses a bunch of units harassing or if the robo player gets a ton of collosi and the blink player only has stalkers. As the food count grows, the stalker ball becomes increasingly unwieldy, and it's hard to cleanly blink everything together. You'll wind up losing a few stalkers here and there even if you're retreating at the right times, so if you get to 150+ food of stalkers, you should split your forces and get some other tech.
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This is just an excellent indeed. I'm 2800 masters and been using this frequently pretty much every game in PvP, so far 100% winrate with it, if you dont count cannonrushes and 2gate proxy shenanigans.
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This blink stalker strat is quite powerful but very micro intensive. If the robo player defends well and just gets a few colossi and stalkers himself he can do really well.
A nice way to play it I think is to get a stargate in addition to the blink stalkers. A few voidrays / phoenix really help for blinking up a cliff and are also really great when they try to split up their army (as voids are great vs colo now). If you scout very well with phoenix you can prevent having to go robo at all as you can know if DT are coming or not.
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I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but couldn't a robo player cut colossi for some immortals? With immortals, he could try and force an army trade by delaying the base race at his main/nat while his army returns to trap you.
This is theory only, the build itself looks solid - I just wonder as immortals can easily take their cost in stalkers down.
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Ive done this playing from behind in a PvP recently. Works in masters, left opponent scratching his head asking how he lost it. Its a good tactic, but I dont know if its a great game plan. Id much rather use a warp prism for ledge vision if possible though because it lets you warp in sentries to prevent them from getting back inside their base if they abort their attack.
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What I've been doing against this is expand at my natural, going Blink myself while getting a few immortals, and playing a normal game, taking expansions at the right time, etc. I don't get too many immortals because they tend to clump up, just get 1-3 for each set of stalkers you have. Instead use your robotics to crank out a lot of observers.
Observers are so important. You'll see incoming attack direction, your opponent's unit transitions, expand timings, movement on the map, snipe observers etc.
With this response, what usually happens is the expansion timing is the same, but your army is stronger because of the immortals, but less mobile because you don't have blink yet. Just turtle, your expansion should be easier to maynard, and out-stalker him while taking expansions like a normal game. Also remember observers!! You'll see colossus/other tech transitions, or greedy expanding that you can easily punish.
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Mana using this alot I remeber in Take homestory cup nr2
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On January 27 2011 05:21 W2 wrote:
What I've been doing against this is expand at my natural, going Blink myself while getting a few immortals, and playing a normal game, taking expansions at the right time, etc. I don't get too many immortals because they tend to clump up, just get 1-3 for each set of stalkers you have. Instead use your robotics to crank out a lot of observers.
Observers are so important. You'll see incoming attack direction, your opponent's unit transitions, expand timings, movement on the map, snipe observers etc.
With this response, what usually happens is the expansion timing is the same, but your army is stronger because of the immortals, but less mobile because you don't have blink yet. Just turtle, your expansion should be easier to maynard, and out-stalker him while taking expansions like a normal game. Also remember observers!! You'll see colossus/other tech transitions, or greedy expanding that you can easily punish.
Agree 100%. Immortals to take your natural into blink is a very good response. Getting blink allows you to punish any harass attempts and prevent retreats.
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Yeah I have only seen one good response when I do this build, and that is immortals into blink. If the other player tries to stick on robo they get fucked really bad.
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I've decided the best thing to do against blink is turtle up an immortal focused army, cannon the crap out of your main, and then go force the base race. I'm not sure the end game can be any different.
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Incontrol mentioned this style in the last state of the game, talking about good Protoss players opening blink and expanding away from their main fully intending to trade bases and then counting on the mobility of blink stalkers to eek out a win. I still use it a lot, and it's probably my highest win% PvP strategy. If your opponent doesn't DT rush or sneak a super fast expansion that can hold a blink stalker timing, you're going to be ahead.
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could u plz post some of ur replays??
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On March 24 2011 07:35 TomTomTom.965 wrote:
could u plz post some of ur replays??
I can't post more ATM, but I have a bunch posted in the thread. I've improved a lot since I posted those replays tho.
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oh i am sry, i just skimmed the thread after first post, ty man 
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This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts.
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On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts.
Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead.
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I have a few games where I did this, basically waited till the slower immortal army moved out and blinked in his base, also have thrown down a few sentries if the ramp is small enough to delay my base dieing. As long as you have a probe out keep mining your hard out to save 400 and warp in as many units as you can. Only problem I have ran into is if the base trade is even (as in all buildings for both teams will die at about the same time) and they have 3+ immortals, hard to get their pylon they put in your main. Being able to put up a nexus helps survive this since he will have to split.
If I remember can dig up the replays assuming I saved them.
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On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead.
I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped.
Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements.
It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP.
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I've put some thought into dealing with blink rushes some time ago since I mostly do a defensive 2gate opening so a lot of my opponents go blink in response. The best I've come up with to deal with this is to expand with an immortal/zealot composition on 1gas so I can get my expo up before any type of contain is set up. I constantly build immortals while going for blink and +attack upgrades. Then I usually go for DTs to abuse the fact that he his bases are spread out and expand again while transition according to what he's doing.
It is a good idea to get a probe out on the map for some scouting later on. Also a proxy pylon in some obscure location for DTs or scouting zealots is generally wise.
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On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP.
The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win.
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On March 25 2011 02:20 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP. The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win.
That game I wasn't really gonig for this build it just kind of happened :D
I ususally do it properly don't worry
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On March 25 2011 04:04 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 02:20 kcdc wrote:On March 25 2011 01:00 Lobber wrote:On March 25 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:On March 24 2011 23:22 Lobber wrote:
This is one of my favorite PvP strats, though it;s really easy on certain maps to end up losing your army for no damage...
Also if a base trade does occur sometimes worth it to throw down a hidden ds so if he ends up whole army protecting a small area/base you can snipe his obs with blink and take it down with dts. Yeah, if things are going well and you got your expo up well before your opponent, there's no reason to go crazy with the blink harass. Poke the front a bit to snipe a couple units here and there, skim the edge of his main for pylons, sweep around the back of the natural for probes, but you don't need to blink 50 stalkers in to snipe a robo. If he's playing defensively, just go double robo and try to stay 1 base ahead. I remember one game (cros pos temple) where I started a double robo off 2 base vs his massed 1 base (with 2nd on the way) and I sniped his robo bay at the cost of about 6 stalkers. When he pushed I just managed to pull back, let him shoot my expand for a bit, then the 2 colossus popped. Long story short if I couldn't have sniped his bay I would have died to his renforcements. It's a very "on the edge" sort of build, but definately give some vareity and entertainment to PvP. The idea is that you spread your bases out so that if he decides to attack at a time that you can't defend, you counter and trade mains. After trading mains, you still have some mining, a bit of production, and a more mobile force, so you win. It sounds like you were barely able to defend, but even if you aren't even close to being able to defend, you still have a good shot to win. That game I wasn't really gonig for this build it just kind of happened :D I ususally do it properly don't worry
I don't believe you Lobber, you never tell the truth :D
Question: If you manage to get a contain, is it better to expand and go double robo for mass immortal vs single base colossus or just tech to colossus yourself, even if you are behind in timing?
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Interesting concept, and seems like it works rather efficiently. All you have to do is make sure your observer doesn't get sniped, huh?
You an even put a proxy pylon that can warp into the observer's vision and warp reinforcements directly into the opponent's main.
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Does this build (3 gate blink I guess) defend against 4 gates? Or does it only work bs 3 gate robo, because that's pretty much all I saw in the replays
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On March 25 2011 21:06 CoolguyBad wrote:
Does this build (3 gate blink I guess) defend against 4 gates? Or does it only work bs 3 gate robo, because that's pretty much all I saw in the replays
If you scout it (4 gate) a 3 gate can hold and is usually the most efficient hold. Basically if you scout it, counter it. Most PvP's after a 4 gate they will either go for blink, or go for colossus, if you defend efficiently and you both go blink you should win, if post 4 gate he goes robo then just go ahead as normal.
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Robo is very slow so obviously, just like Terran mech, it can end in a base race, ive gotten my robo bay picked off by blink stalks one too many times to not consider it the best opener pvp
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I find 3 gate blink to very effective against 4 gate builds, especially ones that focus on zealots. So that's not really a strong counter. I think if you're on a map like metal, I would take some workers off gas, get 3-4 cannons at my ridge, and try to either get a third, or get collusus ball out
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Italy12246 Posts
It's 3 gates that can stop a 4gate though, not getting a fast blink. Blink comes at least 30 seconds (i believe) later than a 4 gate (roughly 6.30 for blink, 6 for a 4gate), so while it's possible to hold off a 4gate with 3 gate, i think it is better to delay blink a bit in that case. As mentioned in the thread however, blink is a good followup after an econ 4gate or a 3gate defense. But then again, i'm just plat, so i might be missing something
On topic: this looks like an -incredibly- fun way to play pvp, i will definitely try it out.
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Sorry if this is reallyyyy off topic, but how can a 3 gate stop a 4 gate?
I'm just really curious because I've tried to strategy once (and he happened to go robo) and it was brilliant, it's so fun and nerve wrecking at the same time because if you lose your units carelessly he can just move out with a huge army.
I'd really love a strategy that could "counter" 4 gate, because 4 gates are so ugh to me. If you go an all in 4 gate (cut probes) you can lose to a defensive 4 gate, if you go a defensive 4 gate you'll lose to a robo tech since he can get colossus much quicker, but if you go robo you'll lose to an all in 4 gate...that is wayyyy too rock scissors paper for me, so an alternative would be great 8]
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Sorry if this is reallyyyy off topic, but how can a 3 gate stop a 4 gate?
1. ramp.
2. good use of forcefields.
3. good unit positioning and micro.
you can hold your ramp and if he doesnt pull back do enough damage to his army to push out and kill the proxy pylon. then just go expand and win. if he does pull back and keeps up pressure, get another gate to match his 4, and immortals and with superior economy and robofac, you can soon push out and take ur nat and an almost unbeatable resource / tech advantage.
i dont understand why protoss go for blink stalkers pvp, it's a tech all-in to me. you either win or do enough damage to get an economic advantage that you wouldnt have given to the other player by going this (imo) risky tech choice for a (imo) limited tactical advantage (when a ramp is concerned, even with an obs to blink up the wall), or you get rolled over by stalker/colossus shortly thereafter. i think its pretty easy to defend against and beat, but sometimes it isnt of course =)
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Italy12246 Posts
DeepElemBlues, this thread is exactly how to play blink well after/if a blink rush fails: spread out, force base trades, and never engage directly. Of course you get rolled in a direct fight, but with this style, you dont ever (or close to it) engage directly.
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DeepElemBlues, this thread is exactly how to play blink well after/if a blink rush fails: spread out, force base trades, and never engage directly. Of course you get rolled in a direct fight, but with this style, you dont ever (or close to it) engage directly.
To be frank I don't think there is a way to play blink well after/if a rush fails because you should drop it and expand. Maybe if you're lucky the other guy will get lazy and not get blink himself and you can use that fact in a battle later to your advantage. But Protoss harassing Protoss especially after warp is up? Hard to do.
Putting bases out of the way can hurt you economically as they're harder to saturate and easier to kill.
Against a good player, after your rush fails, you won't seize the momentum again unless you're lucky. That's what I think. He could just sit his army in his base and cover his natural with cannons and a few units and obv he could always pick off ur obs if u arent on top of keeping them alive so you cant blink up and do some mischief.
I think it is too risky to continue with if the rush fails, but there are always exceptions =)
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Italy12246 Posts
Again, i'm just a plat player, but i think playing like that once in a while can be doable. Keep in mind that a robo player will have a hard time securing even three bases, because you can harass him nonstop and if he splits his army you can kill half of it and get out before the other half arrives, while you can stay on three or more comfortably; even if eventually he attacks, you just ignore him and basetrade, and you will be advantaged.
The point of spreading your bases is that yes, they are easy to kill, but if he tries to take down just one he will lose his own base in return, leaving you ahead economically.
Even high level players have been doing this style well: one of kcdc's replays is against a top 200 guy, and on state of the game incontrol mentions how axslav has been trying this style.
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The point of spreading your bases is that yes, they are easy to kill, but if he tries to take down just one he will lose his own base in return, leaving you ahead economically.
unless i was scared i wouldnt send all or even most of my army there, honestly just send a probe to proxy pylon a convenient spot and spend a round of warp-ins keeping my army at home to defend. of course after just 1 time of that you would (should) adapt with some defense at these expos.
Even high level players have been doing this style well: one of kcdc's replays is against a top 200 guy, and on state of the game incontrol mentions how axslav has been trying this style.
we'll have to wait and see and try for ourselves if we want and find out, i dont want to discourage you from trying, whatever you have fun doing trying to win =)
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I really love this strategy. It's very map control oriented, and because of that, I'll frequently get several observers and put them around the map so that I always have a very clear idea where his army is, and when I can counter-attack.
Anyone figure out how to transition into this mid-game type of plan? I have trouble sort of stabilizing an opening of some sort to get to the point where I can just mass Stalkers.
Also, map-wise, I know that it doesn't work terribly well on Delta Quadrant because how narrow the map can be. It's great on Xelnaga and Metalopolis.
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EPT
