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On December 08 2010 11:23 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 11:10 Sbrubbles wrote:On December 07 2010 17:11 MorsCerta wrote:On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D random claims? The claim is that: If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.) And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening. The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism. Why would you econ hit of the extractor be bigger on the 11 overpool/18 hatch than on the 14 hatch/15 pool build and why do you claim it's "common sense"? To be sure you would have to test a 14 hatch/15pool/14 extractor against an 11 overpool/17 extractor/18 hatch, which both yield ling speed at around 06:00. I sincerely doubt this will change the conclusions of the OP. Every single person who has stated that gas will affect this build more than another always ends up justifying it by claiming that this build "sacrifices early economy" in some way. It is simply the after-affect of people thinking for so long that early pools were less economical. They simply can't get the idea out of their head fully. They assume SOMETHING must be worse if they are getting things earlier than they normally do. People just have to get used to the idea that their past conceptions were wrong. Changing their convictions is more difficult and takes more time for some people than for others.
hehe yeah agreed completely. That early queen is a life saver.
Originally, hatch is the only way to generate larvae, but by getting pool first, we get queen fast as well, therefore it's good economically.
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On December 08 2010 11:10 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:11 MorsCerta wrote:On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D random claims? The claim is that: If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.) And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening. The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism. Why would you econ hit of the extractor be bigger on the 11 overpool/18 hatch than on the 14 hatch/15 pool build and why do you claim it's "common sense"? To be sure you would have to test a 14 hatch/15pool/14 extractor against an 11 overpool/17 extractor/18 hatch, which both yield ling speed at around 06:00. I sincerely doubt this will change the conclusions of the OP.
Yeah your right, producing drones out of 2 hatcheries while getting gas would be equal to producing drones out of one hatchery while getting gas. And mining off of 2 bases while getting gas is equal to mining off of 1 base while getting gas.
And the build order has you building an overlord at 17, when your hatchery is placed, and 18 immediately following your previous overlord. So thats 550 minerals within 1 supply of each other while you have only 15 drones mining (2 supply for queen) not to mention this is not including 1 supply for some scouting lings which every zerg has outside their opponents base, if you are adding gas in there you will be sacrificing econ and time. So it makes most sense to either delay gas, delay your expo or cut units.
This build allows for early game flexibility, that is it's benefit. And I recognize that. Which is why I say it has a place versus protoss and zerg, both of which MU's you almost always go pool first against. Having the extra flexibility versus those races is worth it sometimes. This is not an end all be all build order, and a lot of people in here are saying things like it is.
And in my opinion, versus TERRAN (which is all I have been talking about?,) it is more beneficial to go hatch first, provided you aren't awful at defending against 2 rax play and you aren't spawned close positions.
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On December 07 2010 15:54 Keilah wrote:
The evidence is enough for me, I'm satisfied that 11pool > hatch first. I'll even add that throwing in lings/gas/scouting would make the 11pool a LARGER favorite vs a hatch first, by reducing the impact of oversaturation.
The one advantage of hatch first is that it gets up creep at the expo faster, which might be important for spines and movement speed.
Are there builds (2rax, zlot rush for example) where the fast expo creep is a necessity? Or can the 11pool defend those just as well or better?
bump
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Here is a video I found just today. PsyStarcraft covering a player who went "some teamliquid economic build." It makes me really happy to see this stuff and know it is catching on out there! Don't knock it till you look it up and try it Psy. 
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I've been playing around with a few variations on this build. I've been going 11 overpool, 16 queen, then extractor trick to get 1 set of zerglings out and then hatch on 19. Then I make an overlord and remake the extractor and make something else before the overlord pops. I think I can get away without scouting before the lings that way and it chases off scouts. Anybody have any thoughts on that? I've also done 16 queen 18 extractor, lings, and then expo without cancelling the extractor to get faster speed, but I don't think you can keep up constant production and get your second queen quite in time for your expo that way.
By the way, this may have been mentioned, but I tested the timings and making an in base spinecrawler and moving it to the expo to plant immediately as it finishes is only a few seconds slower than doing 14 hatch and planting the spine crawler as it finishes.
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The only problem I have witht he build is the fact your 2nd hatch isn't up yet, so thus no creep, you can't just drop the spine right away and that gives your enemy that much more time to get marines & bunkers up your rear.
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This build reminds me of bw builds a little more... Sweet
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On December 08 2010 12:19 Mephs wrote:
The only problem I have witht he build is the fact your 2nd hatch isn't up yet, so thus no creep, you can't just drop the spine right away and that gives your enemy that much more time to get marines & bunkers up your rear.
It isn't spines that prevent bunkers from getting built, it is lings.
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On December 08 2010 11:33 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 11:10 Sbrubbles wrote:On December 07 2010 17:11 MorsCerta wrote:On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D random claims? The claim is that: If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.) And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening. The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism. Why would you econ hit of the extractor be bigger on the 11 overpool/18 hatch than on the 14 hatch/15 pool build and why do you claim it's "common sense"? To be sure you would have to test a 14 hatch/15pool/14 extractor against an 11 overpool/17 extractor/18 hatch, which both yield ling speed at around 06:00. I sincerely doubt this will change the conclusions of the OP. Yeah your right, producing drones out of 2 hatcheries while getting gas would be equal to producing drones out of one hatchery while getting gas. And mining off of 2 bases while getting gas is equal to mining off of 1 base while getting gas. And the build order has you building an overlord at 17, when your hatchery is placed, and 18 immediately following your previous overlord. So thats 550 minerals within 1 supply of each other while you have only 15 drones mining (2 supply for queen) not to mention this is not including 1 supply for some scouting lings which every zerg has outside their opponents base, if you are adding gas in there you will be sacrificing econ and time. So it makes most sense to either delay gas, delay your expo or cut units. This build allows for early game flexibility, that is it's benefit. And I recognize that. Which is why I say it has a place versus protoss and zerg, both of which MU's you almost always go pool first against. Having the extra flexibility versus those races is worth it sometimes. This is not an end all be all build order, and a lot of people in here are saying things like it is. And in my opinion, versus TERRAN (which is all I have been talking about?,) it is more beneficial to go hatch first, provided you aren't awful at defending against 2 rax play and you aren't spawned close positions.
The OP has demonstrated with numbers and replays that 11 Overpool 18 Hatch is only slightly behind the 14 hatch 15 pool economically and is better economically than all pool first builds.
What I'm saying is that adding gas to both builds does not alter this conclusion in any significant way.
By putting down the extractor at 18 and making another drone, because of the extractor build time you're only gona start harvesting gas after you have enough minerals to lay down your hatch. Also even with those 3 drones on gas (until 100 gas), you have enough minerals to build 4 drones when your first larvae pops. Here's a replay fyi.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/113703-1v1-zerg-jungle-basin
Yes, gas will slow down the dronage on this build, but it will slow down JUST AS MUCH a 14 hatch 15 pool build.
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Ive tried this, its awesome
thanks for sharing it
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On December 08 2010 11:33 MorsCerta wrote:
This build allows for early game flexibility, that is it's benefit. And I recognize that. Which is why I say it has a place versus protoss and zerg, both of which MU's you almost always go pool first against. Having the extra flexibility versus those races is worth it sometimes. This is not an end all be all build order, and a lot of people in here are saying things like it is.
And in my opinion, versus TERRAN (which is all I have been talking about?,) it is more beneficial to go hatch first, provided you aren't awful at defending against 2 rax play and you aren't spawned close positions. May be this is true. I still 11-pool every time, just to get this build right. I would have more trouble to perform different BOs. Good players of course will practise different BOs, but in this case I am with Day9 who claims that creativity comes out of constrains.
If we say "you have to 11-Overpool no matter what", we can discuss how this can be utilized against terran. Unless with very good mechanics, it is may be better to execute this build smoothly instead of have several BOs but anyone of them is executed sloppily.
On December 08 2010 11:30 evanthebouncy! wrote:
hehe yeah agreed completely. That early queen is a life saver.
Originally, hatch is the only way to generate larvae, but by getting pool first, we get queen fast as well, therefore it's good economically. At least for me, it is good for the nerves to have a quite early pool and a quite early queen. I feel safe and I am not single-minded about "must ... survive ... enemy timing push ..."
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The 50-100 minerals behind around 7 minutes is not going to cost me a game outright, you know what will cost me a game outright? Getting hit with 6 pool or proxy rax/gateway when i'm doing hatch first. Maybe you have the hand speed and micro to defend against 2 rax pressure at your nat with 1 crawler and 6 lings like idra while not falling behind on your macro, i sure as hell don't, i'll be 1 base 2 hatching it.
Also since the early queen and lings let me fight off the super fast cheese i don't have to blow a drone on scouting so early on, which should actually mitigate what economy difference there is between the 14 hatch and the overpool. But still, the deciding factor for me is that i'm not going to get knocked out of any game before it even starts just because 6 lings or a couple zealots just crashed my droning party.
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On December 09 2010 06:49 jaunty wrote:
The 50-100 minerals behind around 7 minutes is not going to cost me a game outright, you know what will cost me a game outright? Getting hit with 6 pool or proxy rax/gateway when i'm doing hatch first. Maybe you have the hand speed and micro to defend against 2 rax pressure at your nat with 1 crawler and 6 lings like idra while not falling behind on your macro, i sure as hell don't, i'll be 1 base 2 hatching it.
Also since the early queen and lings let me fight off the super fast cheese i don't have to blow a drone on scouting so early on, which should actually mitigate what economy difference there is between the 14 hatch and the overpool. But still, the deciding factor for me is that i'm not going to get knocked out of any game before it even starts just because 6 lings or a couple zealots just crashed my droning party.
Remind me again how the early pool means you don't have to scout like the rest of us?
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On December 09 2010 07:30 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 06:49 jaunty wrote:
The 50-100 minerals behind around 7 minutes is not going to cost me a game outright, you know what will cost me a game outright? Getting hit with 6 pool or proxy rax/gateway when i'm doing hatch first. Maybe you have the hand speed and micro to defend against 2 rax pressure at your nat with 1 crawler and 6 lings like idra while not falling behind on your macro, i sure as hell don't, i'll be 1 base 2 hatching it.
Also since the early queen and lings let me fight off the super fast cheese i don't have to blow a drone on scouting so early on, which should actually mitigate what economy difference there is between the 14 hatch and the overpool. But still, the deciding factor for me is that i'm not going to get knocked out of any game before it even starts just because 6 lings or a couple zealots just crashed my droning party. Remind me again how the early pool means you don't have to scout like the rest of us?
He never said he did not have to scout. He said "i don't have to blow a drone on scouting so early on". Maybe he means that the lings come out so fast that he can move to their base to see if aggression is coming by reviewing what units are at the door and what buildings are in sight. I'm sure he scouts the enemy sooner or later with an overseer or overlord, but maybe the lings tell him the information he needs in the early game.
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wow - i would like to thank the OP for the ridiculous amount of research, complete thoroughness of explanation and time spent explaining and defending this build. that alone does worlds to legitimize it in my mind, and it will certainly be changing the way i open most of my matchups.
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wat about 12 hatch and 14 pool?
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Crixus yet again does a great job demonstrating the power of this build by winning his second game against iEchoic. This game is very similar to the 2rax-expand game I posted earlier in the OP. Enjoy.
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On December 09 2010 11:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Crixus yet again does a great job demonstrating the power of this build by winning his second game against iEchoic. This game is very similar to the 2rax-expand game I posted earlier in the OP. Enjoy.
See JD? Through patience you will get yours in the end, ignore the haters that don't bring legit criticism.
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On December 09 2010 11:48 eth3n wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 11:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Crixus yet again does a great job demonstrating the power of this build by winning his second game against iEchoic. This game is very similar to the 2rax-expand game I posted earlier in the OP. Enjoy.
See JD? Through patience you will get yours in the end, ignore the haters that don't bring legit criticism.
Agreed I don't even play Zerg but if he can hold of iEchoic with this build I am sure its solid. I been following the other thread with Rets quote I read that whole damn thread. The arguments for your build are strong I am sure it will catch on in no time. Maybe you should bring that video to that thread also.
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On December 09 2010 11:35 jdseemoreglass wrote:Crixus yet again does a great job demonstrating the power of this build by winning his second game against iEchoic. This game is very similar to the 2rax-expand game I posted earlier in the OP. Enjoy.
I am not saying that the 11pool is not ok, but in that replay it is the terran who made the mistake to expand a little too fast. And Z got lucky with that fast speed, because if you get speed that fast ant T does not push you are behind.
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EPT
