14 hatch VS 2rax +scv pressure is not that difficult to hold off.
You must be better than most of the zerg's in the GSL then...
or the terrans around 2100 don't marine/scv push as well as the terrans in the GSL?
or I am just better then 2100 (which I believe to be true since I have not plateaued at all) and I am better than the terrans I am facing.
I am sure there may be a point where 2 rax scv pressure gets more difficult but I have not yet lost to it. And considering I always 14 hatch provided cross positions or a good map I have faced quite a few of these pushes. I find it much more difficult to hold off the double bunker blocking ramp, which I believe is getting nerfed next patch along with pylon block.
Well, if you know it is your skill level beating your opponent and not your build order, then maybe you shouldn't make universal claims about how easy it is to beat X -- unless this is your blog, of course. I could beat bronze foxer wannabes with just workers, but I wouldn't go into a thread claiming that you don't need a pool to beat 2-rax.
I like the flexibility of this build quite a bit. It transitions to a number of all-ins quite easily, and doesn't deprive you of a macro game either. I have yet to play a game where I felt like this BO is flatly the reason I lost. The case has always been my macro, micro, or decision making.
good economy build but I really don't like it. Speedling build is just superior, you delay your expansion until around 21 but you gain map control and scouting which is key. Is the build viable? Sure. But will it become standard? probably not.
On December 06 2010 21:16 emc wrote: good economy build but I really don't like it. Speedling build is just superior, you delay your expansion until around 21 but you gain map control and scouting which is key. Is the build viable? Sure. But will it become standard? probably not.
There is no reason you can't get speed whenever you want with this build. To satisfy such criticisms I even posted a game where I went 11 Pool 14 Gas and got zergling speed almost a full minute before my 15 Hatch opponent.
So why not think of this as a speedling build which is both faster and more economical?
14 hatch VS 2rax +scv pressure is not that difficult to hold off.
You must be better than most of the zerg's in the GSL then...
or the terrans around 2100 don't marine/scv push as well as the terrans in the GSL?
or I am just better then 2100 (which I believe to be true since I have not plateaued at all) and I am better than the terrans I am facing.
I am sure there may be a point where 2 rax scv pressure gets more difficult but I have not yet lost to it. And considering I always 14 hatch provided cross positions or a good map I have faced quite a few of these pushes. I find it much more difficult to hold off the double bunker blocking ramp, which I believe is getting nerfed next patch along with pylon block.
Well, if you know it is your skill level beating your opponent and not your build order, then maybe you shouldn't make universal claims about how easy it is to beat X -- unless this is your blog, of course. I could beat bronze foxer wannabes with just workers, but I wouldn't go into a thread claiming that you don't need a pool to beat 2-rax.
I like the flexibility of this build quite a bit. It transitions to a number of all-ins quite easily, and doesn't deprive you of a macro game either. I have yet to play a game where I felt like this BO is flatly the reason I lost. The case has always been my macro, micro, or decision making.
I don't know this for a fact, I was making suggestions as to why I find it easy to deflect the 2 rax pressure. Never claimed I was better then the zergs in the GSL or that 2 rax pressure can never be difficult to hold off. Simply that I, myself, only me, have never had trouble holding it off. So for me, personally, I do not see 2 rax pressure as a reason to switch to the 11 overpool build.
Or perhaps its that I only 14 hatch on cross positions or favorable maps that I have much better success.
Also never claimed you didnt need a pool to be 2 rax, not sure where your getting that from. A 14 hatch pool finishes before a 2 rax push gets to your base provided it isn't close positions (recurring theme?) Zerglings take only 24 seconds to produce and proper micro from the zerg using drones, zerglings and your queen can deflect 2 rax pressure with minimal losses. Do you sidagree?
And bronze foxer wannabes are probably worse then the ones I am facing at the 2100D level.
The only reason I even brought up this is because I do not think 2 rax pressure being part of the meta game is sufficient enough reason to not go 14 hatch. I do however think 11overpool has a place against protoss. If you happened to read my post on it.
I have been trying extractor trick 11 pool 10 overlord instead of the over 10 pool listed in this thread. Is this a big detriment to income? I think this build is very flexible if you can scout early because you can choose to make lings or drones. But Idk, can you crunch the numbers pls?
Sorry, just wanted to ask a couple of questions since I had been doing something of a variant with this build..
I was doing 10 extractor trick 11 pool 10 extractor (cancel again if short rush distance map) 11 overlord 3 drones when Ovie pops 14 queen
Are you sure this is not the better build? It feels a lot smoother than yours (all larvae/minerals are instantly used) and gets an earlier Queen (though I have not tested whether it is actually better).
EDIT: Derp, some guy posted nearly the same thing two posts above me.
Could we get a test maybe(I would do it, but don't have access to my SC2 machine)?
Hey I'm a new member to site as well as new to Zerg, transitioned from Terran a week ago. Just a low level Gold player who enjoys playing with my friends, and in my limited time with Zerg I've found several BO's and stumbled upon this one. My only question/concern with the build (which I have tried now) is when is the best time to get gas? I know you want a flexible build but I feel like this build forces you to either apply pressure with the early lings or defend your expo with them, both of which would benefit greatly from speedling research (right?). So I have 2 questions I guess.
1) Have you found any point in the BO where building the extractor causes the least amount of mineral loss (delaying expo, etc.) 2) If not, under what circumstances would it be better to wait or build the extractor early?
On December 07 2010 07:52 crazycarl1 wrote: Hey I'm a new member to site as well as new to Zerg, transitioned from Terran a week ago. Just a low level Gold player who enjoys playing with my friends, and in my limited time with Zerg I've found several BO's and stumbled upon this one. My only question/concern with the build (which I have tried now) is when is the best time to get gas? I know you want a flexible build but I feel like this build forces you to either apply pressure with the early lings or defend your expo with them, both of which would benefit greatly from speedling research (right?). So I have 2 questions I guess.
1) Have you found any point in the BO where building the extractor causes the least amount of mineral loss (delaying expo, etc.) 2) If not, under what circumstances would it be better to wait or build the extractor early?
You have to remember that this is just an opening designed for maximum economic viability, and does not take into consideration what the other guy is doing. You should be building lings and making judgment calls as to when you want to expand, take your gas, etc.
On December 06 2010 21:16 emc wrote: good economy build but I really don't like it. Speedling build is just superior, you delay your expansion until around 21 but you gain map control and scouting which is key. Is the build viable? Sure. But will it become standard? probably not.
There is no reason you can't get speed whenever you want with this build. To satisfy such criticisms I even posted a game where I went 11 Pool 14 Gas and got zergling speed almost a full minute before my 15 Hatch opponent.
So why not think of this as a speedling build which is both faster and more economical?
Ugh the moment you add a early gas in to this build it gets less economical then a regular speedling build... You completely act all the time like changing stuff like scouting, making more lings or whatever is equal for any build but it is NOT. This build catches up and surpasses some other builds if and only if it is allowed to drone freely (as it cuts early eco a slight bit to get better a slight bit later on). As far as a speedling build goes this is far worse then the regular 14 gas 14 pool as by putting in gas it's later for getting speedlings and the geyser and putting drones to gas come at a less opportune time.
please STOP acting like this build can do almost anything more efficient then other builds because it does NOT.
It's a good build if you want to go fast pool and have the option of both economical play or early aggresion play (which admittedly is quite good). In that sense it's alot like a regular 14 pool but slightly earlier pool and slightly worse economy. Adaptations, like getting a early spine or getting early gas are simply much worse with this build then more regular builds because you get larvae injects so early... If you don't have the money to fully use your first larvae inject this build is just strictly worse then a later pool build....
I can't stand the level of arrogance in this thread really.
Of course you can acuse me and others of being a troll again or whatever easy way out you want again but so far most posts have just been stupid.
This build catches up and surpasses some other builds if and only if it is allowed to drone freely (as it cuts early eco a slight bit to get better a slight bit later on).
This assumption that has been repeated several times and corrected by me several times is where the flaw in everyone's thinking is...
Your statement is simply and provably not true. Period.
This is why I went to all the trouble of meticulously testing and even posting the results into graphs from the 30 second mark to 6 minutes, so I could stop hearing people repeat false claims such as these.
Any build that gets gas will sacrifice the exact same number of drones and minerals to get it. There is nothing specific to one build that somehow causes 1 drone or 25 minerals to somehow be worth more than in another at the same point in time. If this is actually your claim, then certainly it is on you to provide some evidence instead of blindly asserting things that many of us would disagree about.
On December 07 2010 04:20 GenesisX wrote: I have been trying extractor trick 11 pool 10 overlord instead of the over 10 pool listed in this thread. Is this a big detriment to income? I think this build is very flexible if you can scout early because you can choose to make lings or drones. But Idk, can you crunch the numbers pls?
If you take a look at the OP, there is a link with data on many different builds.
From the testing I did, straight 10pool-overlord type builds were among the worst economically. So much larvae and mining time is lost waiting to get the overlord out. The overlord BEFORE pool seems to be the real critical difference in allowing the build to be as economical as it is, because you can drone freely while waiting for the pool to complete.
I would highly recommend that whatever variations you make on this build, you ensure your overlord is before your pool to prevent economic inefficiency.
Ugh how retarded is it to think that gas/scouting/making lings has the same amount of impact on every build.... This has been proven tons of times in thread before already all of which you chose to casually ignore.
A build is only efficient if it uses or nearly uses all of it's larvae.. To do so you need to have the cash to make something with that larvae. A build that has less larvae but slightly more economy will have less problems to have enough cash to use all that larvae if there is for some reason slightly less income or slightly more expenses then normal (such as gas or lings can cause). A build however that is perfectly timed to use all its minerals on drones and have less early economy and more larvae like your build simply CANT do that as easily. Ie scouting etc. affects your build more then others.....
On December 07 2010 07:52 crazycarl1 wrote: Hey I'm a new member to site as well as new to Zerg, transitioned from Terran a week ago. Just a low level Gold player who enjoys playing with my friends, and in my limited time with Zerg I've found several BO's and stumbled upon this one. My only question/concern with the build (which I have tried now) is when is the best time to get gas? I know you want a flexible build but I feel like this build forces you to either apply pressure with the early lings or defend your expo with them, both of which would benefit greatly from speedling research (right?). So I have 2 questions I guess.
1) Have you found any point in the BO where building the extractor causes the least amount of mineral loss (delaying expo, etc.) 2) If not, under what circumstances would it be better to wait or build the extractor early?
The decision when to get gas I think would depend a lot on your style. I personally go for very early gas in ZvZ, around 11Pool 14Gas with a slightly delayed expo. Getting ling speed or roaches early in ZvZ is absolutely critical imo. Against Terran and Toss I usually wait until I get the 18 Hatch down before I go for gas.
If I find my opponent trying to hatch block, I usually go for gas immediately, since you will likely stockpile some minerals while getting lings out anyways. Hope this helps.
A build however that is perfectly timed to use all its minerals on drones and have less early economy and more larvae like your build
Did you even read my post? You are still claiming this build has less early economy and more larvae. This is why your argument is wrong. And calling people "retarded" is really inappropriate.
Sorry to post this again, but jdseemoreglass and others adapting this build, at what time do you find best to scout? I was discussing this with Skarg the other day as well.
I'm thinking about scouting at 12. The first drone that comes out after you made pool and overlord.
Not scouting however can end the game if your opponent does some early push.
On December 07 2010 09:14 genopath wrote: Sorry to post this again, but jdseemoreglass and others adapting this build, at what time do you find best to scout? I was discussing this with Skarg the other day as well.
I'm thinking about scouting at 12. The first drone that comes out after you made pool and overlord.
Not scouting however can end the game if your opponent does some early push.
To be honest, I would recommend you guys avoid getting in the habit of seeking cookie-cutter solutions to issues such as these. The answer to these types of questions is almost always "It depends."
On scrap station I never scout with a drone. My overlord can do that.
On Lost Temple against Terran, I will wait for my overlord to check the close air position, and then send a drone once I see my opponent isn't there.
On Steppes against Zerg, I will scout at 9 supply just to be fully prepared for any 6/7pool cheese.
Every situation is different, so I can't really answer these questions substantively. If you aren't at a skill level yet where you can assess these things, then by all means simply pick a supply number like 12 and then adjust if you find yourself getting too little or too late information.
I have a question. If you do the extractor trick make a drone and then an overlord, will it be possible to transition to a 14 hatch build without it ruining your economy? I ask because I will 11 overpool if he spawns in close positions but I will go to 14 hatch if he spawns cross positions. I imagine waiting for that overlord to pop out just crushes your economy early on though....
ETA: Tested it myself. Doing 9 overlord gives you a temporary mineral boost of 100. Also the spawning pool finishes about 3 seconds faster. This may be significant but maybe not as significant in zvp when you're 4 hatching. So I'm comfortable opening this way on medium sized 4 player maps.
On December 06 2010 21:16 emc wrote: good economy build but I really don't like it. Speedling build is just superior, you delay your expansion until around 21 but you gain map control and scouting which is key. Is the build viable? Sure. But will it become standard? probably not.
There is no reason you can't get speed whenever you want with this build. To satisfy such criticisms I even posted a game where I went 11 Pool 14 Gas and got zergling speed almost a full minute before my 15 Hatch opponent.
So why not think of this as a speedling build which is both faster and more economical?
Ugh the moment you add a early gas in to this build it gets less economical then a regular speedling build... You completely act all the time like changing stuff like scouting, making more lings or whatever is equal for any build but it is NOT. This build catches up and surpasses some other builds if and only if it is allowed to drone freely (as it cuts early eco a slight bit to get better a slight bit later on). As far as a speedling build goes this is far worse then the regular 14 gas 14 pool as by putting in gas it's later for getting speedlings and the geyser and putting drones to gas come at a less opportune time.
please STOP acting like this build can do almost anything more efficient then other builds because it does NOT.
It's a good build if you want to go fast pool and have the option of both economical play or early aggresion play (which admittedly is quite good). In that sense it's alot like a regular 14 pool but slightly earlier pool and slightly worse economy. Adaptations, like getting a early spine or getting early gas are simply much worse with this build then more regular builds because you get larvae injects so early... If you don't have the money to fully use your first larvae inject this build is just strictly worse then a later pool build....
I can't stand the level of arrogance in this thread really.
Of course you can acuse me and others of being a troll again or whatever easy way out you want again but so far most posts have just been stupid.
I think this is sort of a strawman argument. The queen gets started at 16 supply, at which point you're at 2 drones/mineral patch saturation in your main. By the time your queen finishes, injects, and the injection pops, you're past the point where minerals are limiting growth. In my experience you're worried about larva and early pressure, and hoping to get some drones over to an expansion for a drones/patch <= 2 saturation again.
There's some flexibility with the second queen timing and the 18 hatch as well. If you failed to stop a bunker block, spines + roach warren are available without cutting into minerals available for drone production.
EPT
