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[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-09 22:53:34
December 01 2010 23:20 GMT
#1

UPDATE: I have a more current thread with a more detailed analysis and comparison of different pool first builds in this thread:
A Second Look At Zerg Openings


General Build order:
(Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)

Submitted by Lomilar, modified by jdseemoreglass
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
11 Pool (finishes @ 2:38)
16 Queen
18 Hatch (finishes @ 4:44)
17 Overlord
18 Overlord
21 Queen
28 Overlord
28 Maynard 7 drones
36 Overlord

After doing countless empirical tests regarding the most economical Zerg opening in my previous thread, we were surprised to find this 11 Overpool build doing extremely well economically. It has so far tested only slightly behind the current standard builds in optimum economics.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481

The true strength of this build however, lay in it's incredible flexibility and safety. It can easily hold off a 6pool, 2rax, 2gate, or any other kind of rush build you can think of. If you scout your opponent playing a macro game, you have the flexibility of choosing whether to punish him with a sudden attack or keep up with his economy just fine. Likely even surpass it!

There is a real psychological value to this build as well. Once your opponent scouts your 11pool, he will likely overcompensate by playing more defensive and less macro-oriented. This of course is due to the widely held misconception that a 10 pool build "must do damage, or it is behind in economy." We have proven this to simply not be the case with this specific build.

It also negates the value of early scouting by your opponents, because this build can transition into anything: heavy eco, 1-base all-in, you name it. This will force your opponent to scout consistently, which will be made all the more difficult by early lings you can get.

This build will get you more larva out by the 6-minute mark than any other tested, so it does great at holding off 4gates or other mid-game pushes.

The more I look at it, the more reason I think this should be the new standard build for Zerg. I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent.

I have been testing this on the diamond ladder (2300+)... These are the first 6 games I played (I won 5/6). This build is so flexible, I really made things up as I went along and had no trouble adapting it to whatever I wanted to accomplish. I think these replays really illustrate the power of this build.

Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +

The first game illustrates how flexible this build is in reverting to an all-in attack. I scout my opponent opening hatch first, so that is exactly what I go for. Going hatch first or 14 pool would prevent this sort of pressure, and would potentially negate what is for me an easy victory.
[image loading]

Game two illustrates how well this build can hold up against a 4gate. This felt like the easiest 4gate I have ever held off because I had many units out quickly. At first I assumed my opponent was making a mistake, or was possibly going 3gate-expand, but the replay shows he did fairly well in keeping his resources low and drone count high.
After holding off two attacks I prepare for a mid-game timing attack before his late expansion can reap dividends.
[image loading]

In this game my opponent opened with a 7 roach rush into expansion. I thought at first the 18 hatch would be vulnerable to such a rush, but I held it off fairly well with only minor damage taken. If you look at the harvester count after the attack, you will see we are even despite my having lost several drones. If I had cut a couple drones I think I could have held off the attack even better.
From there it is a +1,+1 roach timing push ftw.
[image loading]

This is the game I lost. I did not anticipate how quickly the attack was coming. If I had just a few more seconds to complete the third spine crawler and roaches, I think this could have gone differently. Protoss does a good job of showing how to exploit a window of opportunity when at close positions.
[image loading]

In this final replay, I faced something that has become quite common since Foxer GSL... a 2rax marine-scv rush. Even with an 18 Hatch down, I survive. I have to pull drones to defend, but the lings get out just in time to clean up, and I counter attack. Here I made the unfortunate mistake of thinking his barracks had a clean wall-off, when it is clear to me now they didn't. I retreated from 1 marine when I could have won outright.

From here Terran expands and walls in his natural fairly well. I decide he has over-extended himself too much, and decide to punish with a baneling bust. Stream after stream of zerglings rush to the front, and he does well barely surviving again and again. Eventually, I kill off enough SCV's to justify the attack just as he bunkers himself in.

From there we switch to a macro game. His mid-game push is just not enough to hold off the swarm. Overall a pretty exciting match.
[image loading]

By request, a slightly more macro game. Toss builds 3gates and expands at close positions. I quickly surpass him in worker count, and by the 14 minute mark have enough units to kill him outright. I double-expand and easily defend-counter attack, killing his expo and leaving him on 1 base to my 4.
[image loading]


Again, by request, and to appease many of the (absurdly exaggerated) concerns regarding gas/speed timings, as well as viability in ZvZ, I have provided another game. Yes, this build has EARLY GAS! And I'm happy to announce there was no apocalypse or baby seals bludgeoned as a result of it.

I can't remember the build timings precisely, and I am sure it is not a perfect build since I made it up on the spot and even mistimed an overlord, but these are close enough.
He goes 15 Hatch 15 Pool with an immediate gas following. I go 11pool 14 gas, and I think around 20 Hatch. I run speedlings to his base, morph in a few banelings, it is a quick win.

Note: I start my ling speed at 4:00, he starts his at 4:50.
Note: when I began producing lings, we both had exactly 17 drones. I wasn't behind a drone, or half a drone, or whatever...
Note: I didn't catch up in drones due to a queen, I was caught up before I started my first inject!
Note: At every point from 1:30 until 4:30 when I began making lings, I was AHEAD in minerals mined!

I'm sure you guys will enjoy poking holes in this one too, but it provides at least a glimpse of what is possible (and how wrong many people's assumptions are about this build. There is no substitute for actual data).
The key to playing this build in ZvZ imo is quick lings. You will have a faster pool and much more early larvae than most opponents, so you can guaranteed put the pressure on your opponent from the very start. This will either win the game outright, or at least buy time to get gas/drones/speed/etc...
[image loading]

In this game, I want you to take a close look at the production tab... We are doing the exact same build! Has this player been reading TL recently?
The builds divide when I block his expansion for a few seconds. We start the game with speedlings, but end up transitioning into roach play. He gets infestors, which is a very popular ZvZ strat these days, but I think they are honestly terrible. I haven't lost a game yet to any infestor play. I think the gas is much better spent in hydras or upgrades, but that is just my 2cents.
Anyway, thought it was pretty funny to encounter this build already on the diamond ladder. I know variations on this have existed before, but perhaps this thread is making some ripples?
[image loading]

Turns out he did get the build from here. We did a practice match to compare his old standard, 13 pool, 13 gas. I posted for anyone who wants to analyze the differences between these openings.
[image loading]

As I said in a previous post, I think it is a little risky to put down the 18 Hatch if you are against a 1-base zerg. I have been trying to make it work however. It is certainly possible on maps that have a ramp that can be defended by a few roaches, allowing you to drone hard on two hatches.

I played this strat recently on the ladder, and it was fairly effective. Opponent opened speedling/baneling, which I held off with a few slowlings and roaches, and walled myself off. I am a very greedy zerg so I pumped tons of drones and took a slight risk against the coming mutas. Against fast mutas I like to distract them with a roach attack while I get spores and hydras in base.

Anyway, just wanted to provide some more food for thought. Here is the rep.

[image loading]



So tell me what you think. Will you be trying this yourself on the ladder?

Update:

jacobman has been running a thread which has a much more precise and consistent method of testing: AI scripting. This method produces replays that can be analyzed, using the AI to test each build, which is a solid empirical method I can agree with. I do not know exactly how consistent the results are, but you can find all the information you need regarding the method in this thread:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174374

I have updated my data and graph to reflect the superior results he has come up with. I will not comment on the meaning or implications of this data -- I will simply allow you to analyze it and form your own conclusions regarding the relative merits and economic efficiency of each build.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading][image loading]


[image loading]

Update:
This build is really starting to catch on and make some waves out there. I want to thank everyone who is contributing to this build.

Here is a video I found today, of PsyStarcraft covering a player who went "some teamliquid economic build." Don't knock it till you look it up and try it Psy. And it's not a 10 pool, it is an 11 Overpool, get it right.
[image loading]



Crixus yet again does a great job demonstrating the power of this build by winning his second game against iEchoic. This game is very similar to the 2rax-expand game I posted earlier in the OP. Enjoy.

[image loading]



We have our final game from crixus here. I want to thank him for doing a great job showcasing this build against high-level opponents. He went 3-0 until he finally lost to HasHe. The early game clearly favored crixus to win his fourth game, but a poor battle engagement and a few macro mistakes allowed HasHe to claw his way back to a win.

[image loading]




CricketStarcraft recently made a youtube cast of my game against the 4gate. Go check it out and subscribe if you like.
http://www.youtube.com/user/CricketStarcraft#p/u/1/xihnyF41MhY
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Moja
Profile Joined July 2010
United States313 Posts
December 01 2010 23:29 GMT
#2
I'd recommend posting a macro game replay as well, to demonstrate the pure droning power of the build.
Crackensan
Profile Joined August 2010
United States479 Posts
December 01 2010 23:33 GMT
#3
I would hesitate to say any opening BO is a standard for Zerg. Zerg are a flexible, reactive race. Your opener should never be static, always at first a step behind to respond then mid-game transitions are the leap ahead where you out-think your opponent and overrun him/her with sheer numbers of "Swarm" units and "Power" units.
Tasteless: "Well this strategy is made of balls"--Concerning Fruitdealer Vs. BoXeR
RaiZ
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
2813 Posts
December 01 2010 23:36 GMT
#4
Not surprised since it's my best build order for months
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Oscar Wilde
eth3n
Profile Joined August 2010
718 Posts
December 01 2010 23:37 GMT
#5
In any case JD, you have done zergs a service with your thread, legitimate use of the forum, thank you!! :D
Idra Potter: I don't use avada kedavra because i have self-respect.
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
December 01 2010 23:37 GMT
#6
I agree with Moja. I like how well it deals with early aggression and you still have an expansion, but nowadays several protoss and terran fast expand and even with a more economic build order it is somewhat difficult to stay in the economic race. I'm curious how this build would do versus a very macro oriented player, but I will try it definitely try it in practice games and perhaps make it a do it often when on close positions since I play against cheese/all-in early pushes half the games
Try another route paperboy.
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6068 Posts
December 01 2010 23:42 GMT
#7
I think the additional larva would enable both the punishing of a greedy terran/protoss as well as the drones to equal them in economy. Definitely will give this a try for a few more games and see how it goes. Tried it by surprise on my friend and he bunkered up in response giving me the free expo and I crushed him a little later.
peanutter
Profile Joined February 2009
Australia165 Posts
December 01 2010 23:55 GMT
#8
This build seems excellent IF the economic difference between this at the 14hatch 15pool is not too great. It'll allow you to expand with the possibility of changing to an all-in as well as allowing you to defend many types of early aggression. Amazing find. I'm just wondering whether this build would do just as well even if you added a gas geyser to get speed at the same time as some of the other gas/pool builds.
Stone
Profile Joined February 2009
United Kingdom155 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:22:41
December 01 2010 23:56 GMT
#9
jdseemoreglass, have you ran any calculations to determin what the best economical opening is when facing a mana pylon blocking the natural.

common sense would suggest that the earlier the pool, the quicker the lings can come out and clean up the pylon, but as all these calculations are not simple, i'm wondering if you have perhaps already graphed the optimum eco bo in this circumstance, taking into the account also the number of liings to build, the time is takes to destroy the pylon, that sort of thing aswell. would be curious to see which build out of the 14 hatch 15 pool / 11 pool 18 hatch is effected more by the pylon block.

EDIT:
sry im being a doosh not thinkin straight i guess what im getting at, is going for a 14 hatch, moving ur drone to ur expo at 14 pop and then your pylon blocked, u then get an extra drone (as ur at 300 mineral) and put ur pool down on 15. so instead of the 14 hatch 15 pool. what i ment to say is, 15 pool and then hatch asap in comparison to the 11 pool 18 (or after lings clear pylon) hatch.

is 11 pool the most economical opening to clearing out a mana pylon?
zink0
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand17 Posts
December 01 2010 23:58 GMT
#10
pardon my extremely noob question, but why two consecutive overlords at 17 and 18? also what is a maynard 7 drones?

thanks for the build, will try it tonight
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
December 02 2010 00:00 GMT
#11
On December 02 2010 08:56 Stone[MB] wrote:
jdseemoreglass, have you ran any calculations to determin what the best economical opening is when facing a pylon block at the natural.

common sense would suggest that the earlier the pool, the quicker the lings can come out and clean up the pylon, but as all these calculations are not simple, i'm wondering if you have perhaps already graphed the optimum eco bo in this circumstance, taking into the account also the number of liings to build, the time is takes to destroy the pylon, that sort of thing aswell. would be curious to see which build out of the 14 hatch 15 pool / 11 pool 18 hatch is effected more by the pylon block.


Uh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do a 14 hatch and get pylon blocked, don't you just lose outright?
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
December 02 2010 00:01 GMT
#12
if this gets common it is gonna be a pain in the ass
spongythingz
Profile Joined January 2010
Australia21 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:04:05
December 02 2010 00:01 GMT
#13
Would there be a similar build which adds gas for the super crucial ling speed and a scout. Or since the pool was up so early, could you use the first pair of lings? I've been adding an extractor at 16 and it seems you can squeeze a hatch, speed and get 100 minerals before the larvae pops (provided you take drones off gas at 100).
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
December 02 2010 00:03 GMT
#14
On December 02 2010 08:58 zink0 wrote:
pardon my extremely noob question, but why two consecutive overlords at 17 and 18? also what is a maynard 7 drones?

thanks for the build, will try it tonight


I think you can squeeze one drone in between those overlords, but you end up building a lot of stuff in a very short period of time right around that area (queen + stuff from a queen larva spawn), so you do actually need the overlords pretty close.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6068 Posts
December 02 2010 00:04 GMT
#15
On December 02 2010 08:58 zink0 wrote:
pardon my extremely noob question, but why two consecutive overlords at 17 and 18? also what is a maynard 7 drones?

thanks for the build, will try it tonight



Maynard is just a synonym for transfer, transfer 7 drones from your main to your natural/expo
Stone
Profile Joined February 2009
United Kingdom155 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:07:46
December 02 2010 00:06 GMT
#16
On December 02 2010 09:00 Skrag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 08:56 Stone[MB] wrote:
jdseemoreglass, have you ran any calculations to determin what the best economical opening is when facing a pylon block at the natural.

common sense would suggest that the earlier the pool, the quicker the lings can come out and clean up the pylon, but as all these calculations are not simple, i'm wondering if you have perhaps already graphed the optimum eco bo in this circumstance, taking into the account also the number of liings to build, the time is takes to destroy the pylon, that sort of thing aswell. would be curious to see which build out of the 14 hatch 15 pool / 11 pool 18 hatch is effected more by the pylon block.


Uh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do a 14 hatch and get pylon blocked, don't you just lose outright?


sry im being a doosh not thinkin straight i guess what im getting at, is going for a 14 hatch, moving ur drone to ur expo at 14 pop and then your pylon blocked, u then get an extra drone (as ur at 300 mineral) and put ur pool down on 15. so instead of the 14 hatch 15 pool. what i ment to say is, 15 pool and then hatch asap in comparison to the 11 pool 18 (or after lings clear pylon) hatch.
phodacbiet
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1721 Posts
December 02 2010 00:06 GMT
#17
Quick question, why do you get OL at 17 and 18? u can spend that extra 100 minerals to get an earlier queen or a drone
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 00:10:38
December 02 2010 00:09 GMT
#18
On December 02 2010 09:06 Stone[MB] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 09:00 Skrag wrote:
On December 02 2010 08:56 Stone[MB] wrote:
jdseemoreglass, have you ran any calculations to determin what the best economical opening is when facing a pylon block at the natural.

common sense would suggest that the earlier the pool, the quicker the lings can come out and clean up the pylon, but as all these calculations are not simple, i'm wondering if you have perhaps already graphed the optimum eco bo in this circumstance, taking into the account also the number of liings to build, the time is takes to destroy the pylon, that sort of thing aswell. would be curious to see which build out of the 14 hatch 15 pool / 11 pool 18 hatch is effected more by the pylon block.


Uh.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do a 14 hatch and get pylon blocked, don't you just lose outright?


sry im being a doosh not thinkin straight i guess what im getting at, is going for a 14 hatch, moving ur drone to ur expo at 14 pop and are then pylon blocked, u then get an extra drone and put ur pool down on 15. so instead of the 14 hatch 15 pool. what i ment to say is, 15 pool.


Oh, my bad. I thought you meant having your ramp double-blocked after you put a hatchery down. In which case I think you do pretty much just lose outright unless the protoss screws up.

If you get pylon blocked that way, you're going to be way better off if you started 11 pool. That will always be ahead of a 15 pool that didn't go down til 350 minerals or so. Your expansion will still be delayed, but you'll be able to get lings out *way* faster to take the pylon out.

And one very real benefit is that if your opponent scouts your 11pool, he probably isn't going to pylon block the natural anyway, at least not unless 11pool/18hatch becomes pretty common.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
December 02 2010 00:12 GMT
#19
On December 02 2010 09:06 phodacbiet wrote:
Quick question, why do you get OL at 17 and 18? u can spend that extra 100 minerals to get an earlier queen or a drone


Both queens already come out as soon as they can be used anyway, but I think you're right about the extra drone. 17OL and 19OL should still get the second OL fast enough.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 02 2010 00:12 GMT
#20
I add in the extractor depending on what I scout. In the 7RR replay I added a fairly fast extractor to keep up in the roach count, and it didn't seem to have a negative effect on the overall economy of the build.

The reason you need two overlords around 18 supply is because you are at 17/18 after putting down the hatch, and a larva inject is about to pop as well. Because the 4 larva and second queen will instantly use 6 supply, you would find yourself supply capped quickly without the additional overlord.

I added a replay where a Toss expands. It is a little more macro than the others, and I think proves the build can easily surpass Toss in worker count in very little time.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
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