|
On December 02 2010 12:11 Sanasante wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.
Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).
Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc. You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front. Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals. So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me. I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it? Please actually read the post before posting yourself. He tested a lot more than 3 builds...these three builds yielded the best results. Out of the three he took into account safety, and the fact that you are only behind by 100 minerals come middle game yet you cannot be cheesed (Very easily). If this build saves you 1 drone from dying or having to be removed from mining, this build practically will have paid for itself. Since this is most likely going to happen every game overall this is considered the most economical from a practical standpoint.
Sigh, I did read the post, and the original post this was based on.
I was simply asking if this was the "most economic" build because thats how he proposed it in the opening sentence of this new thread.
He also responded to different people asking about the viability of this build with different strategic requirements with:
Get gas whenever you feel most comfortable getting gas. bThe posted build is simply how to maximize economy, it can be adjusted anyway you like. Let's try not to make an extremely flexible build less flexible with assumptions about strategy.
So I asked for clarification.
|
You're not seriously 2200 diamond are you? Those games were pretty awful. Not to be mean or anything, but I'd like to see this build executed by better players. In the 2 rax expand game you posted, the dude put up 4 missile turrets and you hadn't even started lair yet... not to mention the HUGE amount of floating resources from both sides.
You were missing injects TERRIBLY all game (main queen had 70 energy by 12 minutes) and you were getting an in base hatch instead of a third when he was completely contained.
Also incredibly bad creep spread.
|
On December 02 2010 12:18 pwnasaurus wrote:
You're not seriously 2200 diamond are you? Those games were pretty awful. Not to be mean or anything, but I'd like to see this build executed by better players. In the 2 rax expand game you posted, the dude put up 4 missile turrets and you hadn't even started lair yet... not to mention the HUGE amount of floating resources from both sides.
You were missing injects TERRIBLY all game (main queen had 70 energy by 12 minutes) and you were getting an in base hatch instead of a third when he was completely contained.
Also incredibly bad creep spread.
What can I say? I am simply a noob trying to learn the game.
Then again, if I am ranked 1000 in North America, I can't imagine how bad the other 842,000 players are...
|
On December 02 2010 12:06 Sanasante wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote:On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.
And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT. ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing. But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens? No. I was not disagreeing with your conclusion of this build in ZvZ. I was simply stating that the problem with ZvZ is that with this build your gas will be behind, because of the late gas you can be put in a very bad position losing more than you should have to.
Ah, ok. Well I'd say it's both hatch and gas timing as either one being earlier would make you much safer (earlier sc or earlier tech).
I'm assuming you didn't get a normal 16 gas with the hatch first builds as that would obviously skew the results a lot in favour of this 11 pool. Couldn't you compare the two builds including gas? Try to fit a gas timing in for your build and do 16 gas for the hatch first builds. It would make for a lot more realistic results and the gas timing would be extremely useful to know.
Right now, I don't see the practical use of the build until you've managed to implement one or several gas timings.
ZvZ you're going to be hugely vulnerable to speedling/baneling.
ZvP you're going to be vulnerable to double cb stalker as you won't have ling speed and your sc will be significantly delayed. I'd go as far as saying with a late gas this build is completely unviable on a map like Delta where you can't cover everything with 1 sc. Slow lings just won't cut it against 4 stalkers with some zealots added in. Something like extremely fast 4 warpgate (put probes back on minerals after 50 gas, all cb on core) pure zealots would also tear this build apart.
ZvT you might be able to get away with it against 2 rax on maps where you can cover everything with 1 sc, but on wide-open naturals, the late lingspeed just won't work.
I'm sure you've done a lot of testing on this and understand the build much better than I do, but I feel like you need to come up with a decent gas timing for it to be a build we can actually discuss in a practical context.
|
WOA just tried this. AWESOMe ecnomical build, plus early SP is great
|
On December 02 2010 12:26 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 12:06 Sanasante wrote:On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote:On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.
And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT. ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing. But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens? No. I was not disagreeing with your conclusion of this build in ZvZ. I was simply stating that the problem with ZvZ is that with this build your gas will be behind, because of the late gas you can be put in a very bad position losing more than you should have to. Ah, ok. Well I'd say it's both hatch and gas timing as either one being earlier would make you much safer (earlier sc or earlier tech). I'm assuming you didn't get a normal 16 gas with the hatch first builds as that would obviously skew the results a lot in favour of this 11 pool. Couldn't you compare the two builds including gas? Try to fit a gas timing in for your build and do 16 gas for the hatch first builds. It would make for a lot more realistic results and the gas timing would be extremely useful to know. Right now, I don't see the practical use of the build until you've managed to implement one or several gas timings. ZvZ you're going to be hugely vulnerable to speedling/baneling. ZvP you're going to be vulnerable to double cb stalker as you won't have ling speed and your sc will be significantly delayed. I'd go as far as saying with a late gas this build is completely unviable on a map like Delta where you can't cover everything with 1 sc. Slow lings just won't cut it against 4 stalkers with some zealots added in. Something like extremely fast 4 warpgate (put probes back on minerals after 50 gas, all cb on core) pure zealots would also tear this build apart. ZvT you might be able to get away with it against 2 rax on maps where you can cover everything with 1 sc, but on wide-open naturals, the late lingspeed just won't work. I'm sure you've done a lot of testing on this and understand the build much better than I do, but I feel like you need to come up with a decent gas timing for it to be a build we can actually discuss in a practical context.
You forgot many other points. How will you ever win without getting attacking units? So far this build only makes drones. In fact, this build doesn't even include a lair! There is clearly no scouting drone accounted for, so you will be in the dark all game. And how are we supposed to know what to do when we get past the final overlord? The build just ENDS there.
|
Thank you for this helpful BO. And it is quite funny , because your last replay , you are against my RL friend Kappn.
|
First Gas Timing is based on what you scout. If:
- Shit's coming down the pipes, and you have time to get 100 gas and finish the research by the time you'd need it, get a gas.
- Shit's coming down the pipes, and you don't have time to do the above, don't get a gas. Pursue alternate measures of defense. (Some combination of slowlings/spines/queens/evo chamber.)
- Or blindly take a gas at whatever food/time you require to feel comfortable and sleep well at night.
The build is supposed to be something highly flexible. In a perfect world with no rush/aggression from your opponent, it has the strongest economy out of any zerg build, followed by 14 and 16 hatch.
If you are getting slammed with early aggression, you have the ability to defend comfortably. Very few players are 'comfortable' defending a lot of early aggression with a 14/16 hatch build (economic builds.) The niche this opening fits is thus: a flexible build with the options of comfortable defense or economic advantage.
|
On December 02 2010 12:48 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 12:26 Orome wrote:On December 02 2010 12:06 Sanasante wrote:On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote:On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.
And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT. ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing. But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens? No. I was not disagreeing with your conclusion of this build in ZvZ. I was simply stating that the problem with ZvZ is that with this build your gas will be behind, because of the late gas you can be put in a very bad position losing more than you should have to. Ah, ok. Well I'd say it's both hatch and gas timing as either one being earlier would make you much safer (earlier sc or earlier tech). I'm assuming you didn't get a normal 16 gas with the hatch first builds as that would obviously skew the results a lot in favour of this 11 pool. Couldn't you compare the two builds including gas? Try to fit a gas timing in for your build and do 16 gas for the hatch first builds. It would make for a lot more realistic results and the gas timing would be extremely useful to know. Right now, I don't see the practical use of the build until you've managed to implement one or several gas timings. ZvZ you're going to be hugely vulnerable to speedling/baneling. ZvP you're going to be vulnerable to double cb stalker as you won't have ling speed and your sc will be significantly delayed. I'd go as far as saying with a late gas this build is completely unviable on a map like Delta where you can't cover everything with 1 sc. Slow lings just won't cut it against 4 stalkers with some zealots added in. Something like extremely fast 4 warpgate (put probes back on minerals after 50 gas, all cb on core) pure zealots would also tear this build apart. ZvT you might be able to get away with it against 2 rax on maps where you can cover everything with 1 sc, but on wide-open naturals, the late lingspeed just won't work. I'm sure you've done a lot of testing on this and understand the build much better than I do, but I feel like you need to come up with a decent gas timing for it to be a build we can actually discuss in a practical context. You forgot many other points. How will you ever win without getting attacking units? So far this build only makes drones. In fact, this build doesn't even include a lair! There is clearly no scouting drone accounted for, so you will be in the dark all game. And how are we supposed to know what to do when we get past the final overlord? The build just ENDS there.
Look, I realize you're trying to put a prototype of a build out there. The point I'm making is that gas timing is an absolutely critical part of every build and unless you can show that you can get a similar gas timing as with hatch first builds while still keeping up with a hatch first economy, the build has little practical value.
If the reason this build can keep up in economy with hatch first builds is because it allows to spend your resources continually, it'll get more interrupted by having to get gas than a hatch first build, where you have to pool some resources until your pool finishes anyway.
|
On December 02 2010 12:53 Kava wrote:
First Gas Timing is based on what you scout. If:
- Shit's coming down the pipes, and you have time to get 100 gas and finish the research by the time you'd need it, get a gas.
- Shit's coming down the pipes, and you don't have time to do the above, don't get a gas. Pursue alternate measures of defense. (Some combination of slowlings/spines/queens/evo chamber.)
- Or blindly take a gas at whatever food/time you require to feel comfortable and sleep well at night.
The build is supposed to be something highly flexible. In a perfect world with no rush/aggression from your opponent, it has the strongest economy out of any zerg build, followed by 14 and 16 hatch.
If you are getting slammed with early aggression, you have the ability to defend comfortably. Very few players are 'comfortable' defending a lot of early aggression with a 14/16 hatch build (economic builds.) The niche this opening fits is thus: a flexible build with the options of comfortable defense or economic advantage.
Thanks a lot Kava. This is what I was gonna say, but I just couldn't resist the urge to re-troll for once.
I hate the idea of forcing a gas timing into a build because someone has a crutch for speed they can't break. I get it or I don't get it, depending on what I scout and decide while in-game. This build solves so many problems zerg face and provides so much economy and flexibility, I can't imagine anyone would reject it because they don't know how or when to get speed.
PS. You need to change your quote. "If you aren't attacking, you're probably losing (unless you are zerg)."
|
I am zerg, but I just decided it was time for monocle cat shenanigans.
|
On December 02 2010 08:55 peanutter wrote:
This build seems excellent IF the economic difference between this at the 14hatch 15pool is not too great. It'll allow you to expand with the possibility of changing to an all-in as well as allowing you to defend many types of early aggression. Amazing find. I'm just wondering whether this build would do just as well even if you added a gas geyser to get speed at the same time as some of the other gas/pool builds.
This build, if I am not mistaken, is mathematically superior in every way to hatch first.
Edit: well nvm, read a little further and it's like 100 mins behind although ahead in larva. Still I'd say it will pay for that easy in how much safer it is.
|
On December 02 2010 13:16 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 08:55 peanutter wrote:
This build seems excellent IF the economic difference between this at the 14hatch 15pool is not too great. It'll allow you to expand with the possibility of changing to an all-in as well as allowing you to defend many types of early aggression. Amazing find. I'm just wondering whether this build would do just as well even if you added a gas geyser to get speed at the same time as some of the other gas/pool builds. This build, if I am not mistaken, is mathematically superior in every way to hatch first.
This is false. Take a look at the thread I posted in OP. That is the thread that provides data on build economies, and 14 Hatch/15 Pool is the leader, though there is some dispute about 16 Hatch...
This build was the best out of all the pool-first builds, and actually competed surprisingly well with the hatch-first build. I thought it deserved it's own thread for the reasons listed in the OP.
|
I have been gassing immediately after hatch most often, and its worked relatively well (clearly there are times when this wasn't a good idea, but it seems to fit there well)
|
Excellent thread, I think you may even put a [G] tag, this is just solid!
|
Probably the best thread ive ever seen on TeamLiquid Strategy section.
Good info, multiple replays and well written.
|
Edited for fail. We're done with this part of the topic now. OPs build has defended itself.
|
On December 02 2010 14:28 Cheshyr wrote:I tried it a couple times tonight, as a lowly Bronze. In the most notable game, I failed to defend the first speedling rush from a Silver player, but managed to repel the 'lings using my excessive drone force. I recovered quickly, and won easily with Roaches. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-170708.jpg) I admit, it was an awful game, I'm a terrible player, and I executed the BO poorly. It still worked. I think I'm going to continue to use this build.
cant load the replay, but drone heroism is a zvz staple :D
|
I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up.
|
This build isn't a full proof plan. People should realize that the point of this build is to insert things like the gas timing, the ling speed, lair tech etc etc while still being pretty stable in econ. Just follow this build like a general outline, then feel for when each tech needs to be placed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
