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I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Why post a build order, just say maybe the first two numbers then use the format after X get Y. To you and me these things seem understandable, but to someone who is in lower leagues or someone whos first RTS is starcraft 2 they will read that as a plan they need to stick to, and if your really mean to aid someone in proving your point you can tell them what to get after something else and as there skill increases their ability will do it will increase and maybe a new optimal way to get things will evolve... which is what we all want for starcraft
not to mention, if something gets buffed or nerfed in a patch lowbies are going to wonder why they arent getting the things at the time they should be, which won't win your strategy any popularity as the game progresses
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On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Why post a build order, just say maybe the first two numbers then use the format after X get Y. To you and me these things seem understandable, but to someone who is in lower leagues or someone whos first RTS is starcraft 2 they will read that as a plan they need to stick to, and if your really mean to aid someone in proving your point you can tell them what to get after something else and as there skill increases their ability will do it will increase and maybe a new optimal way to get things will evolve... which is what we all want for starcraft
not to mention, if something gets buffed or nerfed in a patch lowbies are going to wonder why they arent getting the things at the time they should be, which won't win your strategy any popularity as the game progresses
By your logic we should all stop posting build orders because the opponent could rush you with 5 workers...
The OP is describing a very very flexible opener where you get the most economy if you follow it to the letter. Nobody said to do the opener blindly, no matter what happens.
If you don't understand that, then don't look at build orders anymore. But let the rest of us who DO understand how to use them post about it okay?
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OP, I am wondering how this build handles cheese. It seems very difficult because you supply block yourself at 18, and you wont have an opportunity to make Zlings until after the hatch is down AND your overlord is done.
For this reason I have only used this build on scrap, because I can use my overlord to scout and I don't need to scout with a drone.
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On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ?
I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results.
If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy.
A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it.
Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play.
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Very awesome thread I shall go to my lab to test it. I love the idea that you can fend off cheese and be economical with this build.
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yee its a very good opening, esp on cross-mid pos.. maybe an short rush distance 2gate stalkers or 2rax openings can be annoying.
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On December 02 2010 23:50 Sirion wrote:
I am sorry if I sound aggressive, but this post really bothers me. Firstly, it is not obvious at all that such an early pool can compete with a 14 hatch 14/15 pool build. In fact that fact is amazing.
Second, for obvious reasons building lings reduces the number of drones you build. However, unless you provide some argument, I will assume that the impact on the economy is very similar both for this build and for 14 hatch 14 pool. The only exception is when you build a lot of lings before the pool for 14 hatch 14 pool finishes, then there is no comparison possible. But loosing 6 lings in defense of an extremely early rush is better than loosing 6 drones, so this build is better of economically.
As a third, the OP does not include a scout or fighting units on purpose. Instead he assumes that you have a brain to scout when you think it is needed instead of when some magic list on the internet told you to do so. Same with fighting units. This is no 3 roach rush, the aim is to have the option to have an extremely strong economy with an early pool.
As a final comment, your overzealous wish to ban one of the few truly constructive and innovative threads is so misguided it just baffles me. This thread contains a valid buildorder, a lot of testing and data on how it performs in a purely economic setting, a lot of replays you probably did not watch and many positive responses by zerg players who have tried it out.
Well, I'm theorycrafting here but a lot of builds need to consider qualitative aspects of the game and not tunnel vision on the quantitative results. The few reasons people are criticizing here are not that complex or unfair...
Since the build takes no gas (or a super late gas), the early pool allowing the early Queen looks better than a typically timed zerg opening (with gas), since having the extra 4 drones (3 off gas plus not wasting drone on extractor) allow you to continually produce from the early injections. In most games 100 gas for lair, speed or roach defense is required to QUICKLY react to early aggression or fast/hidden tech. If you took a normal gas (anywhere from 14-18 let's say) with an early pool, I imagine you wouldn't be able to produce from all that early larvae (but I could be wrong not having tested, this just seems to make sense)
You mentioned producing lings affects both typical openings and this build equally, however in other builds which get ling speed rather early, one could argue that the you get more "economic benefit" from fast lings, since these lings will be able to accomplish more and require less lings (think how many slow lings you would want vs. an early push over how many speedlings you would need).
While I don't agree with banning threads trying to help, it would be nice for people claiming strong build orders to properly have them worked out with scouting, full economic timing (gas) and execution/transition like seen on Liquipedia.
edit: To actually see how economical this build can be, the builder should test getting gas at various supply levels and then compare that to typical 14g/14p, 14p/15h, etc openings and determine how early the gas can be with this build and STILL beat those. Seems like that would be an important sticking point.
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On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
This is a generic opening to follow in generic circumstances.
If you get your nat/ramp blocked with pylons/bunkers, no single opening won't have to adapt.
However, 11pool makes pylon blocking much less cost efficient. Zerg isn't forced to take 5-6 drones off mineral to slowly kill pylons that can get cancelled before completion anyway. You'll have to sacrifice a larva or 2 for lings... but guess what... the 14hatch guy would do it too if he could.
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On December 02 2010 23:50 Sirion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 22:34 Markwerf wrote:
Builds that don't include units and don't include scouting should just be banned from the forum really, its just useless in practice anyways. ...your overzealous wish to ban one of the few truly constructive and innovative threads is so misguided it just baffles me.
Banning useful information from the forums seems counter-intuitive to me. Am I missing something here?
I'm a little disturbed that people can't think in terms of framework. It's a foundation you can use to play your own game, and it encourages personalization without sacrificing effectiveness.
How often do you read about a build order, try it out, and realize it just doesn't fit with the way you play? But you do it anyway, since it's 'the best', or the latest exploitation of the metagame? This build is a gift. You can use it to play using your own style. If it conflicts with your style too much, don't use it... stick with the 14P-15H. Or something else. Suggesting that this build 'could' become the standard doesn't mean it will.
To placate the 'when to gas' question, it would be interesting to see an array of games with an extractor inserted into the build at specific points. It won't be terribly useful, but we can use that information to adjust our responses to different types of early aggression.
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On December 03 2010 00:31 Roban wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Why post a build order, just say maybe the first two numbers then use the format after X get Y. To you and me these things seem understandable, but to someone who is in lower leagues or someone whos first RTS is starcraft 2 they will read that as a plan they need to stick to, and if your really mean to aid someone in proving your point you can tell them what to get after something else and as there skill increases their ability will do it will increase and maybe a new optimal way to get things will evolve... which is what we all want for starcraft
not to mention, if something gets buffed or nerfed in a patch lowbies are going to wonder why they arent getting the things at the time they should be, which won't win your strategy any popularity as the game progresses By your logic we should all stop posting build orders because the opponent could rush you with 5 workers... The OP is describing a very very flexible opener where you get the most economy if you follow it to the letter. Nobody said to do the opener blindly, no matter what happens. If you don't understand that, then don't look at build orders anymore. But let the rest of us who DO understand how to use them post about it okay?
you wouldn't be able to carry out your build order without workers now would you. Build orders stifle creativity, and adaptability, if your going to follow a build order every game you could be a million points diamond, but if you just know how to follow build orders your either going to get messed up by early pressure, or lost in the late game when the build order stops. Notice you've never seen a build order that says "if this push fails do X" because everyone is so fucking confident in their build order that they don't see if failing.
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On December 03 2010 01:02 OriginalBeast wrote:
Notice you've never seen a build order that says "if this push fails do X" because everyone is so fucking confident in their build order that they don't see if failing.
I thought we never saw that in a build order because we assumed competence and creativity on the part of the player?
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On December 03 2010 00:50 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 23:50 Sirion wrote:
I am sorry if I sound aggressive, but this post really bothers me. Firstly, it is not obvious at all that such an early pool can compete with a 14 hatch 14/15 pool build. In fact that fact is amazing.
Second, for obvious reasons building lings reduces the number of drones you build. However, unless you provide some argument, I will assume that the impact on the economy is very similar both for this build and for 14 hatch 14 pool. The only exception is when you build a lot of lings before the pool for 14 hatch 14 pool finishes, then there is no comparison possible. But loosing 6 lings in defense of an extremely early rush is better than loosing 6 drones, so this build is better of economically.
As a third, the OP does not include a scout or fighting units on purpose. Instead he assumes that you have a brain to scout when you think it is needed instead of when some magic list on the internet told you to do so. Same with fighting units. This is no 3 roach rush, the aim is to have the option to have an extremely strong economy with an early pool.
As a final comment, your overzealous wish to ban one of the few truly constructive and innovative threads is so misguided it just baffles me. This thread contains a valid buildorder, a lot of testing and data on how it performs in a purely economic setting, a lot of replays you probably did not watch and many positive responses by zerg players who have tried it out. Well, I'm theorycrafting here but a lot of builds need to consider qualitative aspects of the game and not tunnel vision on the quantitative results. The few reasons people are criticizing here are not that complex or unfair... Since the build takes no gas (or a super late gas), the early pool allowing the early Queen looks better than a typically timed zerg opening (with gas), since having the extra 4 drones (3 off gas plus not wasting drone on extractor) allow you to continually produce from the early injections. In most games 100 gas for lair, speed or roach defense is required to QUICKLY react to early aggression or fast/hidden tech. If you took a normal gas (anywhere from 14-18 let's say) with an early pool, I imagine you wouldn't be able to produce from all that early larvae (but I could be wrong not having tested, this just seems to make sense) You mentioned producing lings affects both typical openings and this build equally, however in other builds which get ling speed rather early, one could argue that the you get more "economic benefit" from fast lings, since these lings will be able to accomplish more and require less lings (think how many slow lings you would want vs. an early push over how many speedlings you would need). While I don't agree with banning threads trying to help, it would be nice for people claiming strong build orders to properly have them worked out with scouting, full economic timing (gas) and execution/transition like seen on Liquipedia.
Transition to whatever you like. Seriously. You don't need someone to spell out the transitions for a 14 hatch 14 pool because you're not restricted in any way, and can transition in any way that is appropriate. This isn't any different.
As far as gas timing, scouting, etc. it's the same: do it whenever you want, depending on what you want to do. The only time something like this should be noted is if doing so would effect the build in some way. For example, dropping down an Extractor before your Hatchery and putting 3 Drones in it likely screws up the timing of your Hatchery, but this is likely intuitive. Likewise, scouting on 10 could (I haven't checked) delay your Hatchery by a little bit. It might be beneficial to note at what time you can effectively scout without delaying your hatch, but that's something you should pick up if you play with it a few times. Once the hatch is down, though, you should be able to pretty much do whatever you want to do that makes sense. Overlord and Drone timings from then on obviously assume ideal, uninterrupted play. If your opponent is doing something you should probably react to it.
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On December 03 2010 01:02 OriginalBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 00:31 Roban wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18...
Why post a build order, just say maybe the first two numbers then use the format after X get Y. To you and me these things seem understandable, but to someone who is in lower leagues or someone whos first RTS is starcraft 2 they will read that as a plan they need to stick to, and if your really mean to aid someone in proving your point you can tell them what to get after something else and as there skill increases their ability will do it will increase and maybe a new optimal way to get things will evolve... which is what we all want for starcraft
not to mention, if something gets buffed or nerfed in a patch lowbies are going to wonder why they arent getting the things at the time they should be, which won't win your strategy any popularity as the game progresses By your logic we should all stop posting build orders because the opponent could rush you with 5 workers... The OP is describing a very very flexible opener where you get the most economy if you follow it to the letter. Nobody said to do the opener blindly, no matter what happens. If you don't understand that, then don't look at build orders anymore. But let the rest of us who DO understand how to use them post about it okay? you wouldn't be able to carry out your build order without workers now would you. Build orders stifle creativity, and adaptability, if your going to follow a build order every game you could be a million points diamond, but if you just know how to follow build orders your either going to get messed up by early pressure, or lost in the late game when the build order stops. Notice you've never seen a build order that says "if this push fails do X" because everyone is so fucking confident in their build order that they don't see if failing.
If you are really so against Build Orders, just pretend the OPs post says 11 Overpool/18Hatch and leave it at that. That really is all it is. How is that different from saying 14 pool/16hatch, or something? These timings are necessary to know, otherwise you could be screwing yourself early on with suboptimal (read: bad) openers.
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On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote:
I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play.
Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful.
Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now"
I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed
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Just wanted to post since there have been quite a number of 'negative' comments. I am a 1700-1800 currently diamond player (been going up). I was quite circumspect about this build when I saw it, but I figured I should try it.
Played 4 games last night with it, 2 vs. T, 2 vs. Z and I quite like it. I used to go 15h/14p vs T and 14g/14p vs Z. I won all 4 with this build and it worked quite beautifully, because the build is quite robust in the face of changes. I dropped gas at 15ish in all games, which is not that far off from when I would throw it down anyway. (slightly late in ZvZ due to overpool, slightly faster in ZvT due to late hatch). You will not have gas when pool finishes, but that is because pool finishes so much faster. However when Z speed comes (in my ZvZ) you will have more lings already.
As for how it deals with pylon block - actually better than a 15h/14p since when you see it you can get some quick lings to deal with it.
I'll post my games when I get home, since all include an extractor in the first 20.
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I tested this build out in 4 ladder games this morning cause I was curious. I usually for for a 14 or 15 hatch/pool build being as greedy as possible with my initial scout except vs zerg where i go 14/15 pool. Initially it felt downright strange and I stumbled a lot with the different transitions. But I went 3-1 (opponents were a 2k plat P(W), 1650 diamond T(W), 1840 diamond P(L), 2100 diamond T(W) ).
The amount of early larva i had made handle 2 rax pressure MUCH easier. I think in retrospect I would have waited till lair tech to get a banelings nest since I was able to get so many lings out to respond. Once i shut that down and droned hard, macro won both T games with ease.
Both toss players went with gateway pressure. The first was more korean based, and on shakuras. I shut down his proxies easily with some lings and after 2 waves he tried to transition out and got overrun. The second and only loss I took was cause I simply scouted wrong. I saw 3 gates and a robo, and a FE so I thought I had a bit of time. But he went with 7 gates and a massive push when i was expecting robo. I defended it but was like 15 food behind after cleaning it up with drones and queens and spines. Never recovered despite some mass infestor delay tactics to get my econ back.
all in all, I think I'm going to stick with this build and explore how it transitions into different play styles and then integrate it into ideal matchups.
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Quite a lot of arguing in this otherwise quite interesting thread. I wish I had a filter that removes all polemic posts. Anyway,
Transition to whatever you like. Seriously. You don't need someone to spell out the transitions for a 14 hatch 14 pool because you're not restricted in any way, and can transition in any way that is appropriate. This isn't any different.
Why is spelling out decent transitions and variants of a build order so bad? In the end everyone ends up improvising away, but to me it seems useful to do some research about the strongest variants in the very early game.
I don't mean to say that such variants have to be spelled out for this BO to be useful. I'm just saying, let's look at variants too.
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I've been using this ever since you posted in the origninal BO testing post. It's actually great since if you see them not walling as terran or 15 hatching as zerg you can actually go all in and make lings instead of drone and outright kill him.
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also, in the games versus the terrans, I obviously didn't stick to the build all the way up. I made one queen and cut drones around 14.
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On December 03 2010 01:04 Cheshyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:02 OriginalBeast wrote:
Notice you've never seen a build order that says "if this push fails do X" because everyone is so fucking confident in their build order that they don't see if failing. I thought we never saw that in a build order because we assumed competence and creativity on the part of the player?
Thats like saying you think everyone is good at the game. Everyone has played someone where they have though, "wow this guy is just terrible" I don't feel like these people should be overlooked, as a matter of fact I feel they have the lowest skill and highest potential, but if we tell everyone that doing one thing every game is optimal. Then their supported with everyone hopping on the bandwagon, they are going to look at their supply and think that is when they are supposed to make something reguardless. Assuming that someone who maybe in bronze level has creativity is absurd because not even some people in diamond have creativity. Think about protoss, 9/10 the thing protoss players go for is that colossus ball of death... not creative, not evolving the game. I wish we could all find out the most optimal responses to things, not the most optimal way to open a game and wish someone to be on their marry way. Last and the most fucking important thing to remember is that low skilled players may not be able to macro well enough for the most optimal opener ever, why not just say "build what you have money for, move out when your confident enough.
The more you say about higher skilled players the more you will be missing the point.
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EPT
