EPT[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 5
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dthree
Australia150 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:12 Conrose wrote: I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up. lol, I have seen some hilarity with this build in zvz, while I am tempted to tell tales without replays, lets just say that many zerg are very confused when the lings dont come after the 11 pool, and roach+drone is my new favorite army composition. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:26 dthree wrote: did you ever consider that the reason this build is so good is because your gas and zerglings are REALLY late? they dont have to be, but your opponent will scout the 11pool will have to at least consider that you are not gonna FE, options open | ||
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Brightside
United States2 Posts
I've basically been doing massive macro off of this build and if the protoss tries to expo then every time they get crushed. The literal only think i believe I've lost to when i used this build and followed it correctly( lost once when i forgot the pool until like 14 supply..... -_-") is when I've been 4 gated which sounds like a flaw in the build but its actually just that o think I've lost to literally every 4 gate someone has tried on me....(i know pretty embarrassingly sad) but i have gotten better and i was able to defend much better then with traditional 14 hatch 15 pool. OP if your looking for some replays (from an decent at best player) that shows the macro aspect behind this opening ill gladly throw some up ^.^!!! | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 15:26 dthree wrote: did you ever consider that the reason this build is so good is because your gas and zerglings are REALLY late? That's odd, because I managed to win the game in replay 1 with a speedling all-in before I even reached 14 drones. | ||
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Terrifyer
United States338 Posts
14gas 13 pool get speed expo at 21 then speedling it up and push back the morphing banelings so he cant get to my base before i make banelings, or if he roaches....its sort of GG since I have my expo and can drone up/sunken when he comes. however, I see this build being pretty darn decent in ZvP and ZvT, depending on the situation. Just should probably figure out what the proper time to get gas would be. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On December 02 2010 17:34 Terrifyer wrote: I highly doubt this would be a good build for zvz, at least the way I play it anyway 14gas 13 pool get speed expo at 21 then speedling it up and push back the morphing banelings so he cant get to my base before i make banelings, or if he roaches....its sort of GG since I have my expo and can drone up/sunken when he comes. however, I see this build being pretty darn decent in ZvP and ZvT, depending on the situation. Just should probably figure out what the proper time to get gas would be. Well, the argument is that 11 pool is essentially almost identical to any late pool, hatch first build. And the 11 pool protects easily against 6-pool shenanigans. So... by 11 pooling blindly, not only are you safe against cheese, but when your scouting drone arrives, you can easily transition into macro mode, or offense, or fast expo or 1-base depending on what you see. To the OP, The standard 7RR build uses 11 pool in it, so I'm not sure that replay you posted is viable, especially since the guy you replayed, in addition to having the worst micro in the world, also hit your base about 45 seconds late. If he had hit at the proper timing, he'd have won outright (although this would have been more to your error than his, especially since you both would have used the 11 pool build). | ||
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finki
Austria1 Post
In 50% of my games so far, where I use this build (zvp/t), the enemy does something resource-intensive to counter my early pool. Protoss hardwalling, terra putting down two bunkers, chronoboost on gate instead of nexus, faster early units, something like this - if you consider this the economic value rises even more, because it sets your opponent back economic-wise compared to you. It was also a joy to finally defend this 2racks-scv-all-in pushes I had troubles with lately. Btw I modified the build to this most of the times: 11 OL 11 Pool 16 Queen 18 Hatch 17 OL 17 Extractor 16 Zergling 17 Zergling 18 Queen This puts the extractor in at 17, after hatch and overlord, which in addition with the hatch frees up enough food for my 2 pair of zerglings I use for scouting. It also frees me from the 2nd overlord at 18, because the second the first queen pops my first OL does too and I got 159 minerals, so I can start the 2nd queen right away. Or if I feel very threatened I can put a roach warren in there at 16 or 18 easily and have enough gas mined for 4-5 roaches when it pops. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
And, as Protoss this build makes me sigh for certain maps. I suppose 11 pool without gas is another thing I need to adapt to early in the game. I can see where stalkers would shred this with no quick speed. Hmm...some of your posts have me reevaluating my decision making in the PvZ match up. I'll try to get in touch with you in the game and play some practice matches. | ||
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shoop
United Kingdom228 Posts
edit: Finki's adaptation of the build above looks like a good way to get gas and some lings, but it still focuses on economy. What I'm driving at is a variation on the build that focuses on quick tech. | ||
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iuliua
Cyprus9 Posts
But still is a very comfortable build because you can adapt very easy. | ||
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thenanox
Spain72 Posts
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nerrr
Australia47 Posts
I'm not sure how itd hold up against a pylon/bunker block at the ramp... | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
That however is quite unrealistic and thus this build is far from as efficient as it looks.. Sure getting the queen asap provides more drones but if you are getting lings as well you can't use all drones anyway... This build is much less efficient early on but makes up for it later on because the first inject is earlier, however assuming you can just drone up completely is unrealistic. 11 pool builds are crap in ZvT imo where you can't drone like this anyway and just set your own economy back needlessly. In ZvP it's a different case as fast pools automatically deny some builds (like nexus first) and also provide a anti-scout very early, however this build doesn't include an early pair of lings so once again is useless as such, if you try a fast pool build like this at least include an early pair of lings.. Builds that don't include units and don't include scouting should just be banned from the forum really, its just useless in practice anyways. Add lings & scouting to this build and you will notice you will have a mineral shortage somewhere, ie. you can't drone as hard as you like. As a result this build is less efficient economy wise as 14 pool or 14 hatch. Not saying the build is useless but it will in no way be mainstream. | ||
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VWXYZ
Denmark18 Posts
This puts all the "this is useless!"-sayers to shame! :D Great work Gonna try it out right away. | ||
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Sirion
131 Posts
On December 02 2010 22:34 Markwerf wrote: It's fairly obvious a earlier pool build would be more economical in the scenario where you don't get gas or lings at all for the early game. That however is quite unrealistic and thus this build is far from as efficient as it looks.. Sure getting the queen asap provides more drones but if you are getting lings as well you can't use all drones anyway... This build is much less efficient early on but makes up for it later on because the first inject is earlier, however assuming you can just drone up completely is unrealistic. 11 pool builds are crap in ZvT imo where you can't drone like this anyway and just set your own economy back needlessly. In ZvP it's a different case as fast pools automatically deny some builds (like nexus first) and also provide a anti-scout very early, however this build doesn't include an early pair of lings so once again is useless as such, if you try a fast pool build like this at least include an early pair of lings.. Builds that don't include units and don't include scouting should just be banned from the forum really, its just useless in practice anyways. Add lings & scouting to this build and you will notice you will have a mineral shortage somewhere, ie. you can't drone as hard as you like. As a result this build is less efficient economy wise as 14 pool or 14 hatch. Not saying the build is useless but it will in no way be mainstream. I am sorry if I sound aggressive, but this post really bothers me. Firstly, it is not obvious at all that such an early pool can compete with a 14 hatch 14/15 pool build. In fact that fact is amazing. Second, for obvious reasons building lings reduces the number of drones you build. However, unless you provide some argument, I will assume that the impact on the economy is very similar both for this build and for 14 hatch 14 pool. The only exception is when you build a lot of lings before the pool for 14 hatch 14 pool finishes, then there is no comparison possible. But loosing 6 lings in defense of an extremely early rush is better than loosing 6 drones, so this build is better of economically. As a third, the OP does not include a scout or fighting units on purpose. Instead he assumes that you have a brain to scout when you think it is needed instead of when some magic list on the internet told you to do so. Same with fighting units. This is no 3 roach rush, the aim is to have the option to have an extremely strong economy with an early pool. As a final comment, your overzealous wish to ban one of the few truly constructive and innovative threads is so misguided it just baffles me. This thread contains a valid buildorder, a lot of testing and data on how it performs in a purely economic setting, a lot of replays you probably did not watch and many positive responses by zerg players who have tried it out. | ||
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
Thanks again! Quality post!  ♥ | ||
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NinjaAUS
Australia133 Posts
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Sadform
United Kingdom79 Posts
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
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