EPT
[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 2
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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zink0
New Zealand17 Posts
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vaLentine88
United States61 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 09:21 phodacbiet wrote: i watched two replays and i still think that 2nd ol at 18 isnt needed. You can use that minerals to get a drone out or a faster queen for faster creep spread Also realize that when getting the second overlord, you are currently supply capped. Therefore, this is a clear window of opportunity to produce the eventually necessary overlord while losing nothing in the process, because otherwise the larva would be doing nothing and the 100 minerals would be doing nothing. If you value early creep over early units, by all means get the overlord and queen sooner. But I think this is not necessary at all. Early creep spreads were common in slow-starting hatch-first builds because they needed it to defend. I think the 11pool and earlier queens does just fine providing this necessary defense. I personally like to time my queens so they inject simultaneously as well. | ||
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eth3n
718 Posts
this is going to be fun to mess around with | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 02 2010 08:58 zink0 wrote: pardon my extremely noob question, but why two consecutive overlords at 17 and 18? also what is a maynard 7 drones? thanks for the build, will try it tonight When I saw this I instantly thought I could improve this by getting the second queen sooner, and the 3rd overlord later. However, in my tests I noticed that the double overlord gives more time for the drones to mine that come out after, as you are able to build drones as soon as there is larvae for them, whereas if you build a queen, you have some extra larvae sitting around that cannot immediately be morphed into drones, thus you do not mine as many minerals. I tested this by saving a game at the point in the build where you build the double overlords, and trying it both ways loading from this point in the game, assuring that the difference in results is not due to any small mining/initial split differences. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
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Communism
United States176 Posts
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
I will try it out tho, but I think these 2 things will prevent this from becoming standard. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 09:44 Communism wrote: jdseemoreglass thanks for posting this build on a separate thread, this build is genius and i was worried it would get lost in the eco thread. It gives you the option to stop any early aggression, and its versatility makes your opponents early scouting basically useless, except they might know you have 2 bases, but since you can quickly go all in at any time, they just know they are going to be behind if they dont expand. I think we are going to see this build a lot more in the future. Hmmm.... I never considered how this build would essentially negate the value of opponents early scouting. But I agree that is the case, since an all-in build or heavy eco-build would look exactly the same at the start. That is a very good point I will add to the OP. Thanks. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
A lot of Protoss and Terran like to fast expand as fast as possible this days against Zerg players. Protoss are most guilty of it, using sim-cities and cannons to help defend. I imagine this opening discourages players from expanding that fast to begin with, but if they have the balls to do it anyway, does the earlier pool and extra larvae allow you to punish them hard enough to take the game right then and there? | ||
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SlyinZ
France199 Posts
or its 17 overlord 18 gas? Because without gas -> no speed or banes, and i dont see how to handle hellion-marines-medivacs early push with this. Maybe i'm wrong but, take gas this late seems like suicide. btw did a double exctractor trick will not be better ? ( if doing perfectly ). + Show Spoiler + sorry for my english | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:01 Xanbatou wrote: JD, I am glad to see your progress with this build =). If you remember from the other thread, I was initially very intrigued by this build. Question though: A lot of Protoss and Terran like to fast expand as fast as possible this days against Zerg players. Protoss are most guilty of it, using sim-cities and cannons to help defend. I imagine this opening discourages players from expanding that fast to begin with, but if they have the balls to do it anyway, does the earlier pool and extra larvae allow you to punish them hard enough to take the game right then and there? To be honest, I'm not sure. I haven't encountered such a build on the ladder yet. I suspect if you open forge you can get cannons pretty quick, and wall them in to prevent ling surrounds. Though, I know if I see my opponent attempt 15 nexus, I will certainly try to bust him  If anyone wants, we can try some practice matches to test these types of plays. I think that would be a great idea and really provide some evidence as to the limits of this build. encRoach 415 to add | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:06 SlyinZ wrote: Did it's reallly 17 overlord - 18 overlord? or its 17 overlord 18 gas? Because without gas -> no speed or banes, and i dont see how to handle hellion-marines-medivacs early push with this. Maybe i'm wrong but, take gas this late seems like suicide. btw did a double exctractor trick will not be better ? ( if doing perfectly ). + Show Spoiler + sorry for my english Get gas whenever you feel most comfortable getting gas. The posted build is simply how to maximize economy, it can be adjusted anyway you like. Let's try not to make an extremely flexible build less flexible with assumptions about strategy. | ||
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:06 jdseemoreglass wrote: To be honest, I'm not sure. I haven't encountered such a build on the ladder yet. I suspect if you open forge you can get cannons pretty quick, and wall them in to prevent ling surrounds. Though, I know if I see my opponent attempt 15 nexus, I will certainly try to bust him If anyone wants, we can try some practice matches to test these types of plays. I think that would be a great idea and really provide some evidence as to the limits of this build. encRoach 415 to add I've been doing 11 overpool for quite some time now, and if I ever see an early FE by a protoss I have lings there before the cannon is up, and it turns into a micro battle between probes and lings. I have never lost a game in this situation, though I usually play only around 1900 diamond. | ||
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Lavitage
United States71 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:08 jdseemoreglass wrote: Get gas whenever you feel most comfortable getting gas. The posted build is simply how to maximize economy, it can be adjusted anyway you like. Let's try not to make an extremely flexible build less flexible with assumptions about strategy. the problem with this assumption is that if you get extractor and 3 drones before your 18 hatchery, you slow down everything. larva and drone production. 14/15 is not affected by this because you build the extractor and 3 drones to gas after the hatchery has been placed. this build is flexible in the sense you can all in and get lots of larva, but its inflexible on when to add gas. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:14 Lavitage wrote: How does a plain old 10 overpool with no extractor trick faggotry compare to this? i think it wastes a bit more larva time then the posted build. | ||
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