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[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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FrostedMiniWeet
Profile Joined July 2009
United States636 Posts
December 02 2010 01:44 GMT
#41
On December 02 2010 10:23 Vaporized wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 10:14 Lavitage wrote:
How does a plain old 10 overpool with no extractor trick faggotry compare to this?

i think it wastes a bit more larva time then the posted build.


Yeah, its not as economical. The pool finishes only slightly sooner, but its down a drone on eco.
Sanasante
Profile Joined March 2010
United States321 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 02:13:16
December 02 2010 02:11 GMT
#42
I do agree after looking at your charts that this is the best build but I would like to make two extremely important notes.

1. I believe that your data on the graphs are off for the 11/18 build. Reasoning of why: look at the lines on the graph. The 11/18 achieves a greater slope that is obvious in the 4:30-5:00 interval. In fact at this interval the 11/18 has produced the most number of workers. Logically speaking once the slope has been steepened there is no way the other builds should surpass the 11/18 because if you look at the graphs the other two builds slope is not steepening by very much. Look at it enough it will make sense. *Guess as to why" Due to improperly saturating your main and expo.

2. While this build is amazing and I really want to try it out I have one concern. Having to make too many zlings early might create a problem. This is an adjustment players can make over time.
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light
Truffy
Profile Joined May 2010
United States95 Posts
December 02 2010 02:18 GMT
#43
Ya JD, I personally want to thank you for the work you did. I don't believe this will actually become a super standard opening for all matchups because in ZvZ if you want to econ open gotta hatch first for fast creep and ZvP 14 gas 14 pool for fast ling speed is just so strong. However, ZvT this has a lot of promise!!
1a2a3a-->gg
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 02 2010 02:20 GMT
#44
On December 02 2010 11:11 Sanasante wrote:
I do agree after looking at your charts that this is the best build but I would like to make two extremely important notes.

1. I believe that your data on the graphs are off for the 11/18 build. Reasoning of why: look at the lines on the graph. The 11/18 achieves a greater slope that is obvious in the 4:30-5:00 interval. In fact at this interval the 11/18 has produced the most number of workers. Logically speaking once the slope has been steepened there is no way the other builds should surpass the 11/18 because if you look at the graphs the other two builds slope is not steepening by very much. Look at it enough it will make sense. *Guess as to why" Due to improperly saturating your main and expo.

2. While this build is amazing and I really want to try it out I have one concern. Having to make too many zlings early might create a problem. This is an adjustment players can make over time.


Recognize that each build will have different queen spawn larvae timings, and therefore each will fluctuate slightly from minute to minute in drone count (which at the 4:30 mark will also fluctuate income mildly). The RATE of drone production for every build will be identical, since they are equal in hatches and queens.

The slope at the end for 14 Hatch is nearly identical to the earlier slope for 11 pool... the moment when each build leads is clearly the moments after larvae pop for each build. The 16 Hatch build has queens that are not synchronized, and therefore does not produce as wide fluctuations as the 14 Hatch build.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
SoftSoap
Profile Joined November 2010
United States170 Posts
December 02 2010 02:21 GMT
#45
is extractor trick any different from 9 OV? i remember artosis said its actually worse. or that could be something i misheard
Tasteless, "IdrA always pulls out on time."
ch33psh33p
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
7650 Posts
December 02 2010 02:21 GMT
#46
In this case its better. Most other cases its worse.
secret - never again
GaussWaffle
Profile Joined May 2010
United States211 Posts
December 02 2010 02:27 GMT
#47
I like my quick speedlings, but if I ever feel comfortable enough to rely on slowlings for 2-3 more minutes, I'll give this a try
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 02 2010 02:31 GMT
#48
On December 02 2010 11:18 Truffy wrote:
Ya JD, I personally want to thank you for the work you did. I don't believe this will actually become a super standard opening for all matchups because in ZvZ if you want to econ open gotta hatch first for fast creep and ZvP 14 gas 14 pool for fast ling speed is just so strong. However, ZvT this has a lot of promise!!


My opponent in game 1 responded to my build going hatch first. Take a look at him.

And I really don't see the need for fast speed in ZvP... Getting a hatch at your natural for spines is probably a better priority imo, and then adding speed with roaches. In diamond I never go straight for speed against toss, and I've never wanted to either. For example, early stalkers can easily be delayed with slow lings and a queen until you get a spine up.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Sanasante
Profile Joined March 2010
United States321 Posts
December 02 2010 02:41 GMT
#49
On December 02 2010 11:21 SoftSoap wrote:
is extractor trick any different from 9 OV? i remember artosis said its actually worse. or that could be something i misheard


Your getting your pool at 11 and not 12. What makes the 9 ov better is the 1st drone produced timing vs 3 at once. Since your making the pool at 11 and not making the 12th drone it is better economically for the extractor trick.
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
December 02 2010 02:47 GMT
#50
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.

And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
JBrown08
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada306 Posts
December 02 2010 02:49 GMT
#51
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.
Sanasante
Profile Joined March 2010
United States321 Posts
December 02 2010 02:53 GMT
#52
On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.

And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT.


ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing.

Economically: This build is better economically around the 4:00 to 5:00 minute marks. Afterward it trails behind the other 2 builds by only 100 minerals.
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light
Skrag
Profile Joined May 2010
United States643 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 02:55:56
December 02 2010 02:53 GMT
#53
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.
"Just go *@#$ing kill him!" -- Day[9] "Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!" - Artosis
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
December 02 2010 02:59 GMT
#54
On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.

And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT.


ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing.


But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens?
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
JBrown08
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada306 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 03:10:57
December 02 2010 03:06 GMT
#55
On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?

Edit: And as an aside there is one more point in time you area ahead in drones and that is at the 6:00 min mark at this point you are up 2-3 drones, which doesn't hold its lead until the 6:30 min mark when you are behind on drones and doesn't net you any more resources.
Sanasante
Profile Joined March 2010
United States321 Posts
December 02 2010 03:06 GMT
#56
On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:
On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.

And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT.


ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing.


But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens?


No. I was not disagreeing with your conclusion of this build in ZvZ. I was simply stating that the problem with ZvZ is that with this build your gas will be behind, because of the late gas you can be put in a very bad position losing more than you should have to.
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light
Obsolescence
Profile Joined August 2010
United States270 Posts
December 02 2010 03:07 GMT
#57
Thanks so much for all the effort put into this build and protecting your integrity from all the theory-crafters / trolls. I'm currently trying this build out in all my MUs (2000+ Diamond). I'm not super comfortable with it yet, but it feels very strong, if a bit risky.

I hope this becomes standard, it is a lot more fun than stressing about FE.
It doesn't think. It doesn't feel. It doesn't laugh or cry. All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. -Phyrexian Hulk
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
December 02 2010 03:08 GMT
#58
On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?




The purpose of this thread is not to find the most economical build.... wtf are you talking about?
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Sanasante
Profile Joined March 2010
United States321 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 03:12:43
December 02 2010 03:11 GMT
#59
On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?




Please actually read the post before posting yourself. He tested a lot more than 3 builds...these three builds yielded the best results. Out of the three he took into account safety, and the fact that you are only behind by 100 minerals come middle game yet you cannot be cheesed (Very easily). If this build saves you 1 drone from dying or having to be removed from mining, this build practically will have paid for itself. Since this is most likely going to happen every game overall this is considered the most economical from a practical standpoint.
It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light
JBrown08
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada306 Posts
December 02 2010 03:12 GMT
#60
On December 02 2010 12:08 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:
On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?




The purpose of this thread is not to find the most economical build.... wtf are you talking about?


That was my question, lol

Based on your opening statement of


(Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)



Which got derailed by the aside of the person responding to my question.
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