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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:23 Vaporized wrote: i think it wastes a bit more larva time then the posted build. Yeah, its not as economical. The pool finishes only slightly sooner, but its down a drone on eco. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
1. I believe that your data on the graphs are off for the 11/18 build. Reasoning of why: look at the lines on the graph. The 11/18 achieves a greater slope that is obvious in the 4:30-5:00 interval. In fact at this interval the 11/18 has produced the most number of workers. Logically speaking once the slope has been steepened there is no way the other builds should surpass the 11/18 because if you look at the graphs the other two builds slope is not steepening by very much. Look at it enough it will make sense. *Guess as to why" Due to improperly saturating your main and expo. 2. While this build is amazing and I really want to try it out I have one concern. Having to make too many zlings early might create a problem. This is an adjustment players can make over time. | ||
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Truffy
United States95 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:11 Sanasante wrote: I do agree after looking at your charts that this is the best build but I would like to make two extremely important notes. 1. I believe that your data on the graphs are off for the 11/18 build. Reasoning of why: look at the lines on the graph. The 11/18 achieves a greater slope that is obvious in the 4:30-5:00 interval. In fact at this interval the 11/18 has produced the most number of workers. Logically speaking once the slope has been steepened there is no way the other builds should surpass the 11/18 because if you look at the graphs the other two builds slope is not steepening by very much. Look at it enough it will make sense. *Guess as to why" Due to improperly saturating your main and expo. 2. While this build is amazing and I really want to try it out I have one concern. Having to make too many zlings early might create a problem. This is an adjustment players can make over time. Recognize that each build will have different queen spawn larvae timings, and therefore each will fluctuate slightly from minute to minute in drone count (which at the 4:30 mark will also fluctuate income mildly). The RATE of drone production for every build will be identical, since they are equal in hatches and queens. The slope at the end for 14 Hatch is nearly identical to the earlier slope for 11 pool... the moment when each build leads is clearly the moments after larvae pop for each build. The 16 Hatch build has queens that are not synchronized, and therefore does not produce as wide fluctuations as the 14 Hatch build. | ||
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SoftSoap
United States170 Posts
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
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GaussWaffle
United States211 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:18 Truffy wrote: Ya JD, I personally want to thank you for the work you did. I don't believe this will actually become a super standard opening for all matchups because in ZvZ if you want to econ open gotta hatch first for fast creep and ZvP 14 gas 14 pool for fast ling speed is just so strong. However, ZvT this has a lot of promise!! My opponent in game 1 responded to my build going hatch first. Take a look at him. And I really don't see the need for fast speed in ZvP... Getting a hatch at your natural for spines is probably a better priority imo, and then adding speed with roaches. In diamond I never go straight for speed against toss, and I've never wanted to either. For example, early stalkers can easily be delayed with slow lings and a queen until you get a spine up. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:21 SoftSoap wrote: is extractor trick any different from 9 OV? i remember artosis said its actually worse. or that could be something i misheard Your getting your pool at 11 and not 12. What makes the 9 ov better is the 1st drone produced timing vs 3 at once. Since your making the pool at 11 and not making the 12th drone it is better economically for the extractor trick. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph). Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote: Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible. And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT. ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing. Economically: This build is better economically around the 4:00 to 5:00 minute marks. Afterward it trails behind the other 2 builds by only 100 minerals. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote: I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question. Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph). Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc. You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote: ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing. But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens? | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote: You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front. Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals. So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me. I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it? Edit: And as an aside there is one more point in time you area ahead in drones and that is at the 6:00 min mark at this point you are up 2-3 drones, which doesn't hold its lead until the 6:30 min mark when you are behind on drones and doesn't net you any more resources. | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote: But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens? No. I was not disagreeing with your conclusion of this build in ZvZ. I was simply stating that the problem with ZvZ is that with this build your gas will be behind, because of the late gas you can be put in a very bad position losing more than you should have to. | ||
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Obsolescence
United States270 Posts
I hope this becomes standard, it is a lot more fun than stressing about FE. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote: Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals. So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me. I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it? The purpose of this thread is not to find the most economical build.... wtf are you talking about? | ||
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Sanasante
United States321 Posts
On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote: Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals. So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me. I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it? Please actually read the post before posting yourself. He tested a lot more than 3 builds...these three builds yielded the best results. Out of the three he took into account safety, and the fact that you are only behind by 100 minerals come middle game yet you cannot be cheesed (Very easily). If this build saves you 1 drone from dying or having to be removed from mining, this build practically will have paid for itself. Since this is most likely going to happen every game overall this is considered the most economical from a practical standpoint. | ||
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JBrown08
Canada306 Posts
On December 02 2010 12:08 jdseemoreglass wrote: The purpose of this thread is not to find the most economical build.... wtf are you talking about? That was my question, lol Based on your opening statement of (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.) Which got derailed by the aside of the person responding to my question. | ||
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