[D] The new Zerg standard for all match-ups? - Page 3

On December 02 2010 10:23 Vaporized wrote:

i think it wastes a bit more larva time then the posted build.

On December 02 2010 11:11 Sanasante wrote:
I do agree after looking at your charts that this is the best build but I would like to make two extremely important notes.

1. I believe that your data on the graphs are off for the 11/18 build. Reasoning of why: look at the lines on the graph. The 11/18 achieves a greater slope that is obvious in the 4:30-5:00 interval. In fact at this interval the 11/18 has produced the most number of workers. Logically speaking once the slope has been steepened there is no way the other builds should surpass the 11/18 because if you look at the graphs the other two builds slope is not steepening by very much. Look at it enough it will make sense. *Guess as to why" Due to improperly saturating your main and expo.

2. While this build is amazing and I really want to try it out I have one concern. Having to make too many zlings early might create a problem. This is an adjustment players can make over time.

On December 02 2010 11:18 Truffy wrote:
Ya JD, I personally want to thank you for the work you did. I don't believe this will actually become a super standard opening for all matchups because in ZvZ if you want to econ open gotta hatch first for fast creep and ZvP 14 gas 14 pool for fast ling speed is just so strong. However, ZvT this has a lot of promise!!

On December 02 2010 11:21 SoftSoap wrote:
is extractor trick any different from 9 OV? i remember artosis said its actually worse. or that could be something i misheard

On December 02 2010 11:47 Orome wrote:
Interesting, but how are you supposed to pull the expo off ZvZ against a standard 14 gas 14 pool? The only reason you can hold 14 hatch 13 pool against 14 gas 14 pool is because you can get spine crawlers out to defend, but with this build that's not going to be possible.

And how does this do economically compared to 15 hatch 14 pool and 15 hatch 16 pool? Those seem to be critical comparisons as well, since 15 hatch 14 pool is still used often in ZvP and both builds are standard in ZvT.

On December 02 2010 11:49 JBrown08 wrote:
I like the idea, and I'm going to really test this build out; however I have one question.

Was the purpose of this not to find the most economical build? 14 hatch/16hatch first is always ahead in drones and resources at all points (on your graph).

Am I missing something here, or are you looking for the most economical/flexible build? Because if that is the case you can't simply dismiss creep spread as others have suggested, or the need for speedlings etc.

On December 02 2010 11:53 Sanasante wrote:


ZvZ: You can hold your expansion but knowing the number of drone/zling ratio to produce based on what hes spawning. However this will cause your gas to be delayed, and that could be fatal. So the problem with the ZvZ build is the gas timing rather than the hatch timing.

On December 02 2010 11:53 Skrag wrote:


You might want to check the graph again. 14/16hatch are behind on drones for the first 6 minutes or so. And 14hatch appears to be strictly better than 16hatch on every front.

On December 02 2010 11:59 Orome wrote:


But how? How are you going to hold off speedlings and banelings when you probably haven't managed to tech up to either? Obviously you've tested this build and I'm just theorycrafting, but the timing to get sc up vs. a 14 gas 14 pool is tight as it is with a normal 14 hatch, there's no way you'll have them up in time with this delayed hatch. Are you trying to say you think you can hold off the attack just with slow lings and queens?

On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?

On December 02 2010 12:06 JBrown08 wrote:


Yup checked it again, and your sorta right....with this build you are up 0.82-1.17 drones at the 4:30 mark which nets you an extra income of negative 40 to 90 minerals.

So lets think about that for a second, at the all important 4:30 minute mark you are barley up a drone and down on total resources mined, and this is the only point that this build is even remotely ahead at. Yup sounds like its the most economical of the three to me.

I don't think you can call this the most economical build if it is never ahead at important times (or any time at all really). Maybe the more flexible and still viable economic build, but that was really what my question was asking now wasn't it?

On December 02 2010 12:08 jdseemoreglass wrote:


The purpose of this thread is not to find the most economical build.... wtf are you talking about?

(Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)