|
On December 07 2010 10:53 shane_danger16 wrote:
seems like early 2gate stalker would severly punish this build withough speed anywhere in sight
Not true. I've been getting my gas immediately upon pool completion which lets you get a queen and a set of lings, putting you at 18/18. You get gas just in time to deny 2-gate stalker assuming you put guys on the geyser immediately when it pops and start speed right at 100 gas.
You'll have to engage the two stalkers very briefly with non-speed lings, but speed kicks in at a sufficient time that you can snipe them both with minimal losses.
I've been doing 11-pool almost exclusively in ZvP and ZvZ of recent with very good results.
I still feel 14h/15p is superior vs Terran in almost every situation. Against Terran you are more limited by creep spread and getting a spine at your natural than you are faster zerglings or a faster queen.
|
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D
|
The evidence is enough for me, I'm satisfied that 11pool > hatch first. I'll even add that throwing in lings/gas/scouting would make the 11pool a LARGER favorite vs a hatch first, by reducing the impact of oversaturation.
The one advantage of hatch first is that it gets up creep at the expo faster, which might be important for spines and movement speed.
Are there builds (2rax, zlot rush for example) where the fast expo creep is a necessity? Or can the 11pool defend those just as well or better?
|
Im at 1600 plat player. Been using this strat for the last week or so while experimenting with massive bane/sling drops at about the 10 min mark. It's been working really well. Drone up and defend 3rd hatch in main early ovie upgrades. This has been highly successful against terrans and even zerg to lesser extent. Protoss it's a little hit or miss. Seems like banelings aren't as effective against P BUT if you doom drop the main.. It usually throws them into a defensive mindset.. allowing you to expand.. if they counter attack you should have a ton of larve ready.. I've also been making a lot of static defenses because the economy of this build IS very good. Is the OP said this BO is easily adaptable to almost all strategies.
|
I think it would be more valid if the 11 pool 18 hatch was compared to more reasonable and standard openings other than 13 pool 15 hatch.
Perhaps a graph on 14 hatch 14 pool comparison?
|
On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D
random claims?
The claim is that:
If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.)
And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening.
The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism.
|
Is it clear whether 11 Overpool gains or loses more from fast gas than a normal hatch-pool build? You'd be delaying your hatchery, which is significant, but you'd also be delaying saturation since gassing takes 4 drones (3 + 1 for extractor).
Early lings are clearly an edge for the Overpool build since hatch-pool builds can't produce early lings at all.
It seems like the primary drawbacks of Overpool are delayed nat creep, and delayed access to the nat's mineral patches if you're allowed to drone hard.
|
i want to see more zvt replays
|
on a sidenote i've checked the graph in the OP and found it to be slightly off actually by about 10-15 minerals for myself. THis is probably due to the fact that the measuring method of the OP checks resources mined or the amount of resources left at the mineral patches while an extractor trick effectively makes resources dissapear. Thus if you measure resources by checking minerals left in the patch you will consistently be measuring higher then what you actually have.
This combined with the fact that the build from the OP is highly dependant on a very clean execution, ie. you have 6 secs of wasting larvae with a perfect execution but more with a slightly less perfect execution, means that in my own (short) testing of the build i found a 'normal' 9 OV build to be up about 30-50 minerals in practice to this build.
Also with regard to the point that by the time the queen finishes minerals are no longer the limiting factor but larvae is, that is simply nonsense. Minerals are the limiting factor for a long time with zerg as by the time your inject finishes you're also in need of gas, just gotten a 2nd hatchery, building a 2nd queen, needing to make an overlord, making zerglings etc. Minerals ARE the restricting factor to proper zerg play (there are just tons of ways to effectively spend them without using more larvae early on) which makes this build slightly less effective then other builds when it comes to a real game (where you need a combination of economy and army)...
Still I like the build a fair bit for ZvP on 2 player maps. WIth overlord scouting and access to early lings you don't need to scout fast and the money you save by not scouting while at the same time putting P off their ideal build order is worth more then a regular build. Also I do think this build is the most effective build for cleaning a fast hatch block (ie when you can't get up a 14 hatch which is generally the case in ZvP on 2p maps).
In ZvT this build still stinks and in for ZvZ I think it's quite good but i'm not familiar enough with the matchup to say so.
|
On December 07 2010 16:44 ktimekiller wrote:
I think it would be more valid if the 11 pool 18 hatch was compared to more reasonable and standard openings other than 13 pool 15 hatch.
Perhaps a graph on 14 hatch 14 pool comparison?
If you actually read the OP, you would see the economy was discussed in the posted thread link. Here is a graph from that same link, with comparison to a 14 Hatch build...
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XBELW.png)
|
I love the flexibility of this build along with the confusion it can sometimes cause the enemy.
2300pt diamond zerg and I just did this build on Shakuras where I would normally hatch first. Needless to say I was very pleased with this build when I scouted a proxy 2 gate 
The guy cursed me out and called me a hacker saying "Who goes pool first on this map?... a hacker"
Metagame winners... pssshhhh
|
On December 08 2010 01:17 Markwerf wrote:
on a sidenote i've checked the graph in the OP and found it to be slightly off actually by about 10-15 minerals for myself. THis is probably due to the fact that the measuring method of the OP checks resources mined or the amount of resources left at the mineral patches while an extractor trick effectively makes resources dissapear. Thus if you measure resources by checking minerals left in the patch you will consistently be measuring higher then what you actually have.
Actually my method for measuring resources is by adding the "Resources Spent" tab with current minerals. The reason that measuring minerals left on a patch has slightly higher results is because this will include minerals which are still in transit and have not yet been received at the hatchery.
|
On December 08 2010 08:06 Mutarisk wrote:I love the flexibility of this build along with the confusion it can sometimes cause the enemy. 2300pt diamond zerg and I just did this build on Shakuras where I would normally hatch first. Needless to say I was very pleased with this build when I scouted a proxy 2 gate The guy cursed me out and called me a hacker saying "Who goes pool first on this map?... a hacker" Metagame winners... pssshhhh
Yes, I have had things happen to me recently like that as well. On scrap station for example, where everyone simply expects zerg to hatch first, I have seen people proxy barracks and proxy gate. Needless to say those are nice free wins.
But my favorite part is when a player goes hatch first in ZvZ... In the past I never could really kill it outright with a 14 pool, I had to try to play catch-up in economy. This build solves the problem entirely by allowing enough aggression to get a win in these cases.
|
could you provide us with a timing to get lingspeed out before hellions arrive thanks
|
On December 08 2010 08:25 Sclol wrote:
could you provide us with a timing to get lingspeed out before hellions arrive thanks
Maybe you could open up a custom game, rush to hellions, and write down the game clock to see the fastest hellions can be built.
Then open another custom game getting ling speed and adjusting the timing to match the hellion timing.
Then come post the timing so that others can benefit.
TL is a community, and I think we should collaborate on providing quality threads instead of just requesting that the OP keep providing results for everyone who is too lazy to figure these things out for themselves.
|
On December 08 2010 08:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:25 Sclol wrote:
could you provide us with a timing to get lingspeed out before hellions arrive thanks Maybe you could open up a custom game, rush to hellions, and write down the game clock to see the fastest hellions can be built. Then open another custom game getting ling speed and adjusting the timing to match the hellion timing. Then come post the timing so that others can benefit. TL is a community, and I think we should collaborate on providing quality threads instead of just requesting that the OP keep providing results for everyone who is too lazy to figure these things out for themselves.
Fast reactor hellions pop out right around the 5:00 mark in my tests.
|
On December 08 2010 08:38 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 08 2010 08:25 Sclol wrote:
could you provide us with a timing to get lingspeed out before hellions arrive thanks Maybe you could open up a custom game, rush to hellions, and write down the game clock to see the fastest hellions can be built. Then open another custom game getting ling speed and adjusting the timing to match the hellion timing. Then come post the timing so that others can benefit. TL is a community, and I think we should collaborate on providing quality threads instead of just requesting that the OP keep providing results for everyone who is too lazy to figure these things out for themselves. Fast reactor hellions pop out right around the 5:00 mark in my tests.
So, if the hatch FINISHES at 4:44 as stated in the OP, then I'm guessing we could get our extractor shortly after placing the 18 hatch and have enough time to get ling speed finished before the hellions are likely to arrive after 5:00. I've been getting my gas after the 18 Hatch in all my ZvT ZvP games and haven't encountered a problem yet.
|
On December 07 2010 17:11 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D random claims? The claim is that: If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.) And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening. The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism.
Why would you econ hit of the extractor be bigger on the 11 overpool/18 hatch than on the 14 hatch/15 pool build and why do you claim it's "common sense"?
To be sure you would have to test a 14 hatch/15pool/14 extractor against an 11 overpool/17 extractor/18 hatch, which both yield ling speed at around 06:00. I sincerely doubt this will change the conclusions of the OP.
|
On December 08 2010 11:10 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:11 MorsCerta wrote:On December 07 2010 12:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Wow some of you really need to read the OP's well written, well supported, well detailed post.
@shane_danger16
It's just a general BO, it's not saying "DON'T GET SPEED FOR THIS BUILD, NOPE NEVER!"
If you want speed, then make an extractor and put 3 drones into it. No problem there.
@people making random claims
Cmon, seriously! Look at the OP's post. He even has a graph. And plus, probably dozens of posts within this thread. Stop trying to tear him apart. He's already supported himself and proved that his BO is X or Y. Sure of course there will be situations where it's not as good as a different BO, but he's definitely backed up what he says the BO can do with data.
Thanks once again for your work! And it's nice to see the OP even has a graph now since the last time I visited this thread =D random claims? The claim is that: If an extractor is added early (before your 18 expo), the economy hit will be greater than that of a 14hatch/15pool build. Which is really common sense, so you need to either delay your ling speed or delay your expo further (or cut units.) And saying, omg he even has a graph! is pointless. He compared the graph to a build that is not standard. Compare it to 14 hatch/14-15 Pool, which is by all accounts the most standard zerg opening. The blind following is as equally bad as blind criticism. Why would you econ hit of the extractor be bigger on the 11 overpool/18 hatch than on the 14 hatch/15 pool build and why do you claim it's "common sense"? To be sure you would have to test a 14 hatch/15pool/14 extractor against an 11 overpool/17 extractor/18 hatch, which both yield ling speed at around 06:00. I sincerely doubt this will change the conclusions of the OP.
Every single person who has stated that gas will affect this build more than another always ends up justifying it by claiming that this build "sacrifices early economy" in some way.
It is simply the after-affect of people thinking for so long that early pools were less economical. They simply can't get the idea out of their head fully. They assume SOMETHING must be worse if they are getting things earlier than they normally do.
People just have to get used to the idea that their past conceptions were wrong. Changing their convictions is more difficult and takes more time for some people than for others.
|
On December 08 2010 08:13 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 08:06 Mutarisk wrote:I love the flexibility of this build along with the confusion it can sometimes cause the enemy. 2300pt diamond zerg and I just did this build on Shakuras where I would normally hatch first. Needless to say I was very pleased with this build when I scouted a proxy 2 gate The guy cursed me out and called me a hacker saying "Who goes pool first on this map?... a hacker" Metagame winners... pssshhhh Yes, I have had things happen to me recently like that as well. On scrap station for example, where everyone simply expects zerg to hatch first, I have seen people proxy barracks and proxy gate. Needless to say those are nice free wins. But my favorite part is when a player goes hatch first in ZvZ... In the past I never could really kill it outright with a 14 pool, I had to try to play catch-up in economy. This build solves the problem entirely by allowing enough aggression to get a win in these cases.
Oh I crushed quite a few of those with 14 pool. The trick is to lay a spine at his natural expo's creep with your scouter, then just keep rallying in the lings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
