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today I went back to doing 15hatch after what seemed like a long time, and tbh I feel the difference in economy. with hatch first I am looking to take my 3rd much earlier than with any pool-first build. I think that I'll revert back to hatch first against toss because the only thing it is vulnerable to is cannon walls and that's easy to prevent; I also think it plays better versus toss' timing pushes.
Against terran I think that if I go pool first I also want quicker tech and I still have to find a build that feels smooth in that regard.
In zvz I feel like the very early game is so critical that it's hard to deviate from the "standard" builds out there. It's gonna be hard to put down a 18 hatch with no gas against speedling openings because soon after that you'll have banelings at your door... the 11overpool is a tad too late to consistently punish hatch first. Its true that its flexible, but the problem is that whatever the direction you choose to deviate in it will be less efficient than the boring build designed specifically for that, and in a mirror match this can easily cost you the game.
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So there was a lot of discussion earlier about the build and if it's truly the most economical extremely early pool build. the OP requested that previous comments be changed, so in case I missed one or two here is my final position on this issue, which for me is closed.
new replays have been made for the 11 pool 18 hatch with much better play. This brought the numbers exactly equal with the replay of the 13 pool 15 hatch build I posted as far as economy. My current opinion is that the 11 pool is basically economically equal to the 13 pool build. I have started to use build order testers instead of replays though. I found replays have the capability to be off by as much as 150 and are unreliable. Build order testers always play at the same level, perfect. The build order tester says the 13 pool is only ahead by a measly 30 minerals, which is nothing. The 11 pool puts out more larva, so I would go with the 11 pool. I think it is the best early pool build. It is a VERY good build order.
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I was skeptical at first but I gave it a go and it worked and felt good.
Here is a replay on Jungle basic vs 3rax 16 marine push by T, followed by 16 marine with stim and shields. I felt pretty good defending this and getting my tech nice and early.
Thanks a lot, man!
http://replayfu.com/r/hCFrQm [2100+ Diamond]
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On December 05 2010 04:55 ChiknAdobo wrote:
I've been using this build on ladder I'm a 1950 gold, I can just feel a jump to platinum soon. But, I was wondering how to deal with a bunker rush. Should I not but the hatch down at 18 or just send some drones down to kill scv, and how many? I guess I'm also just asking how to deal with a bunker rush in general but specifically with the 11 overpool 18 hatch. Also if someone has any replays of them using this build to stop early pressure whether they be zealots, double stalkers, cannons, early marines, or bunker rushes that would make my day. Thanks!
when pool finishes, get queen as planned and extractor trick a pair of lings out and send them with the second hatch drone, the timing is perfect (lings get to nat aaround the time you hit 300 mins) on most maps.
EDIT: those lings can then be used to take xel naga watch towers 
EDIT: your opponent will very rarely try something like that when he scouts an 11 pool btw^^
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On December 05 2010 18:14 jacobman wrote:
So there was a lot of discussion earlier about the build and if it's truly the most economical extremely early pool build. the OP requested that previous comments be changed, so in case I missed one or two here is my final position on this issue, which for me is closed.
new replays have been made for the 11 pool 18 hatch with much better play. This brought the numbers exactly equal with the replay of the 13 pool 15 hatch build I posted as far as economy. My current opinion is that the 11 pool is basically economically equal to the 13 pool build. I have started to use build order testers instead of replays though. I found replays have the capability to be off by as much as 150 and are unreliable. Build order testers always play at the same level, perfect. The build order tester says the 13 pool is only ahead by a measly 30 minerals, which is nothing. The 11 pool puts out more larva, so I would go with the 11 pool. I think it is the best early pool build. It is a VERY good build order.
How does it compare economically to a 14 pool?
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Okey dokey.
So I spent the last 2 days trying out and testing your builds.
Here are my impressions.
14 Hatch, 15 Pool is still more economical.
It is however, very comparable.
If you go Extractor before 18 Hatchery, you can get speed around the same time as Hatchery first builds with comparable economy.
If you go Extractor before the first queen, you get speed early, but your economy is actually worse than typical builds.
If you go extractor after 18 Hatchery, your speed is around 20 seconds later, with comparable economy to 14 Hatch 15 Pool
The reason this build works is because you take an economic hit with 11 pool to get an earlier queen, who makes it up with an earlier larvae inject. So you are behind until your first larvae inject finishes. However, when that first larvae inject finishes you pull ahead because of how much faster your larvae inject is compared to other builds. If you delay your first queen at all, you are behind.
Essentially if you were making a guide the build should be cut down to this
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
11 Pool
16 Queen
-----------------------Everything up to this point is completely inflexible.
18 Gas (optional but highly recommended)
18 Hatchery
How this has changed my matchups.
ZvZ - heck yeah I'm changing to 11 pool -> queen. New standard in ZvZ for sure imo.
ZvP - you are behind from the period your queen pops out and the 40 seconds afterwards. A 2 gate zealot rush comes before then. no creep near your natural, so no spine crawler, so easy ramp contain. If I know my opponent is going 2 gate zealot, I would not suggest using this. However, there is not enough time to scout this before a 11 pool, so a maybe overall. This build has a great time against 2 stalker rush, 4 gate, and other similiar openings however.
ZvT - On paper yes definitely, but I'm holding off on saying always do this against terran because creep spread is so important in ZvT. So maybe as well, not due to economic reasons. The build has the most potential to be explored here.
I would also like to say to the OP, that while I am impressed overall with the build, you are doing a terrible job with this thread. Compared to kcdc PvT 1 Gate FE thread, you are ignoring valid questions and writing people off as trolls. kcdc was very correct when he said you are creating a hostile environment, and that is why you are facing such opposition. there are actually very few trolls in this entire thread. You continue to say how flexible this build is, and how everything looks great at the 5-6 minute mark. An economic 6 pool looks great at the 6 minute mark, so that doesn't answer anything. You post replays but you haven't really tried to understand or address one of the main issues other posters are having. If you decide or are forced to "be flexible" with this build, such as having to make early zerglings, having to take gas, having to get early lair, etc, how are you compared economically to the other already established builds if they also are in the same conditions. You have not answered that sufficiently at all, so we kind of have to assume that you're doing worse than the established builds. The burden of proof is on you, not us.
Anyway, to the others reading this post, I will say that in my experience this build works great with gas if you get it before the hatchery and after the queen, and I believe this build does have the potential to be a standard.
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On December 05 2010 11:21 dementrio wrote:
today I went back to doing 15hatch after what seemed like a long time, and tbh I feel the difference in economy. with hatch first I am looking to take my 3rd much earlier than with any pool-first build. I think that I'll revert back to hatch first against toss because the only thing it is vulnerable to is cannon walls and that's easy to prevent; I also think it plays better versus toss' timing pushes.
Against terran I think that if I go pool first I also want quicker tech and I still have to find a build that feels smooth in that regard.
In zvz I feel like the very early game is so critical that it's hard to deviate from the "standard" builds out there. It's gonna be hard to put down a 18 hatch with no gas against speedling openings because soon after that you'll have banelings at your door... the 11overpool is a tad too late to consistently punish hatch first. Its true that its flexible, but the problem is that whatever the direction you choose to deviate in it will be less efficient than the boring build designed specifically for that, and in a mirror match this can easily cost you the game.
confirmation bias, placebo effect, take your pick here....
The only reason you feel the difference is because you are compelled to utilize the pool-first's capabilities for aggression. Play it like your double hatch and you'll be safer against cheese, and still sitting pretty economically.
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On December 05 2010 20:12 GhostFall wrote:
ZvP - you are behind from the period your queen pops out and the 40 seconds afterwards. A 2 gate zealot rush comes before then. no creep near your natural, so no spine crawler, so easy ramp contain. If I know my opponent is going 2 gate zealot, I would not suggest using this. However, there is not enough time to scout this before a 11 pool, so a maybe overall. This build has a great time against 2 stalker rush, 4 gate, and other similiar openings however.
ZvT - On paper yes definitely, but I'm holding off on saying always do this against terran because creep spread is so important in ZvT. So maybe as well, not due to economic reasons. The build has the most potential to be explored here.
One thing your not talking about, is the effect of scouting an 11 pool on your opponent. He will most definitily go into defensive mode, thinking 5RR or something. That is truly the strenght of this build IMO.
Also, you gotta understand OP. He wen througha lot of hassle testing shit loads of builds, and finds this one. And then half the people in the first part of the thread are like "no xxx is better". That would frustrate anyone!!
I think this build should really get a proper guide thread done though. Get back to work OP xP
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kcdc thread met with plenty of "you're going to get rolled by 3 rax", but he never called anyone trolls.
Also, effect of scouting of 11 pool is just a temporary thing. If this gets known 11 pool rush and 11 pool 18 hatch can be scouted by counting the number of larva. if you see larva being pooled up, its a rush. as this build gets more well known, scouting a 11 pool wont have any effect.
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On December 05 2010 20:43 GhostFall wrote:
kcdc thread met with plenty of "you're going to get rolled by 3 rax", but he never called anyone trolls.
Also, effect of scouting of 11 pool is just a temporary thing. If this gets known 11 pool rush and 11 pool 18 hatch can be scouted by counting the number of larva. if you see larva being pooled up, its a rush. as this build gets more well known, scouting a 11 pool wont have any effect.
Valid point you got there.
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lol there isn't a person on TL who can go back and read this thread and say there are no trolls...
Anyway, I'm really eager for people to start posting replays! The more data and examples we can get with this build, the better we can make informed decisions!
Don't just say "I died to X," post it please, so we can all see for ourselves the strengths and weaknesses of this build. I personally have been trying to decide when to get gas in ZvZ... If I find my opponent is going 1-base, I am much better off delaying the expo quite a bit and getting an early overlord and extractor, so scouting the expansion timing is critical to playing correctly in ZvZ.
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I have been trying this build on and off as I see fit. I only have one replay in my recent games of it and I am pretty sure I screwed up the build order. I faced a protoss going 3gate expo but instead decided to just go all in.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171557.jpg)
The build seems to have some potential, I still prefer my hatch first versus T and 14 gas 13 pool v Z but versus protoss I think it could be very good. However the main issues with hatch first versus protoss was cannon contain and pylon block that issue is addressed next patch so I am not sure what the exact niche of this build will be.
2100 zerg
edit:
Also all of you are talking about using your first larvae injects etc. I use the earlier queen to spread creep while building another queen. Your economy isn't good enough to support constant injections that early in the game and I also value having creep between my bases and all over the map the earlier you start the better. I generally use the 1st 50 energy from my queen on 2 creep tumors and by this time my 2nd queen and 2nd hatchery is done and I then start injection both hatcheries and droning hard.
When I hatch first I use the first 25 energy from both queens on creep tumors, so it works out pretty evenly with what I normally do.
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It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none.
I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first.
I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV
13 scout
15 Hatch
14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing.
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On December 06 2010 02:24 icezar wrote:
It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none.
I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first.
I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV
13 scout
15 Hatch
14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing.
lol I always wanna ask the hatch-first crowd what league they are in so I can understand how they aren't dying every game. Hatch first is a guaranteed loss against a properly executed 2rax or ling all-in. Against toss I'm not sure since I haven't tried in a while. Not to mention your opponent will go for a hatch block in 85% of games in diamond today, forcing you to go pool-first anyways... If hatch first was viable then I wouldn't even be looking at this 11pool build.
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I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14
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On December 06 2010 02:39 ktimekiller wrote:
I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14
I guarantee you if I go 11Pool 18Hatch all-in and you go hatch first, I will win 100% of my games. But you're gonna have to take my word for this unless you want to try it out
Take a look at the two ZvZ replays. Both times my opponents went hatch-first they didn't even come close to defending my all-in. I honestly don't think it is possible to defend.
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On December 06 2010 02:31 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 02:24 icezar wrote:
It is a very good build indeed. I did try to find flows but there are none.
I am not using it only because i am afraid of hatch being blocked and i like the early creep from hatch first.
I am using what i sow in most of FruitDealer`s games:
10 OV
13 scout
15 Hatch
14 Pool
I love to go MB Lair BN Spire with 3Q and lots of lings after base saturation.
While testing the 11Pool it is like 3 seconds behind at 9min mark so nothing. lol I always wanna ask the hatch-first crowd what league they are in so I can understand how they aren't dying every game. Hatch first is a guaranteed loss against a properly executed 2rax or ling all-in. Against toss I'm not sure since I haven't tried in a while. Not to mention your opponent will go for a hatch block in 85% of games in diamond today, forcing you to go pool-first anyways... If hatch first was viable then I wouldn't even be looking at this 11pool build.
joke right?
Hatch first versus terran is still standard. I always go hatch first provided no close positions and its not steppes of war. I scout on 10 to find out if close positions or not.
Versus a 2 rax You simple have to pull drones to combat his SCVs while your lings attack his marines. It is still very dangerous but its not that difficult. Your 2 queens finish very quickly and if you start a spine crawler asap at your natural its very easy. I have not yet had trouble holding off 2 rax pressure. (2100 Diamond)
Hatch first versus zerg I don't do, and I would only hatch first versus protoss on cross positions or shakuras.
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Hatch first against Terran has been the standard at the top level of diamond play since reapers were nerfed.
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On December 06 2010 02:48 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 02:39 ktimekiller wrote:
I've done extensive testing on hatch first (without any proof on hand though)
From what I've tested, a cheese pool can be handled by drone micro and thus negligible
Beyond what is considered a Cheese pool, a 12 pool with 3 saved larva cannot sustain ling production to be a threat, and 6 lings can be handled by micro. a 13 pool with 3 saved larva can also be handled with queen + drone micro until two queens for ramp blocking which prevent any ling reinforcements going up the ramp after the first 8 lings. 14 pool is far too late and two queens will be able to sit on the ramp.
This is done on long distance with 14 hatch 14 pool. 15 hatch 15 pool is also possible (Machine/Idra ZvZ build), but I find it far riskier than 14/14 I guarantee you if I go 11Pool 18Hatch all-in and you go hatch first, I will win 100% of my games. But you're gonna have to take my word for this unless you want to try it out Take a look at the two ZvZ replays. Both times my opponents went hatch-first they didn't even come close to defending my all-in. I honestly don't think it is possible to defend.
Bad representation of how you hatch first against a lingbane all in
You need to put 2 spine the moment hatch finishes, and add several more.
Based on that the distance in Blistering sands is equivalent to a long distance of metalopolis and lost temple, the first push in the replay would have come as two queens are blocking the ramp with 4 spines + 8 or more lings at the natural
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EPT
