On December 04 2010 14:36 Keilah wrote: probably you would want to be scouting at around the time the 1st gate is about to finish, to see if he is 2gating (watch for core, or for zlots) , building a zlot ASAP, or getting the core ASAP, and adjust accordingly. Not sure how the timings line up, maybe you need to blind 16hat before you know if he's going for the zlot.
Found a good zerg who opens with 11 overpool vs toss. Magulina He doesn't do the exact build in the OP. He actually seems to like making 6 lings to pressure before expanding.
On December 04 2010 16:47 Warrior Madness wrote: Found a good zerg who opens with 11 overpool vs toss. Magulina He doesn't do the exact build in the OP. He actually seems to like making 6 lings to pressure before expanding.
I spent some time working out a variation that incorporates some of the practical aspects of the game into the build. While I am no expert, I believe the following build is one possibility. I understand that I've lost quite a bit of the economic advantage of the OPs build, but I think I put it to good use.
I did not take the time to run this at ultra-slow, and maximize measurements, so these numbers are a bit deflated. I'm not skilled enough to really make this shine at full speed. That also means the supply timings listed late in the build might be off by one or two. I'll work on a cleaner replay tomorrow.
On December 02 2010 14:28 Cheshyr wrote: I tried it a couple times tonight, as a lowly Bronze. In the most notable game, I failed to defend the first speedling rush from a Silver player, but managed to repel the 'lings using my excessive drone force. I recovered quickly, and won easily with Roaches.
I admit, it was an awful game, I'm a terrible player, and I executed the BO poorly. It still worked. I think I'm going to continue to use this build.
I'm glad you admit that, it's one of the first steps (admitting you have a problem. In my opinion, you didn't repel it, you lost your natural (drones) and a fair amount of your base drone's. At this point, you were WAY behind,and a second and third wave of 2 base speedlings (pumped by Queen's) would have ended the game in about 2-3 minutes, I assume (slightly before the roaches appeared).
You won, because your opponent bizarrely never took his naturally and then decided not to press when he had the advantage, but instead to macro without replacing his army he lost killing your drones. This is a mistake I've made (from ahead) but it's a newbie one and one you can't count on it past bronze,
You had nice drone output in the build, but without the gas, you are vulnerable to anything with the slightly amount of speed or DT. (stalkers, repears, helliions and fastlings come to mind). In my lowly opinion (take it for what it's worth), the first 200 gas needs to come fairly fast. The first 100 for speedlings and the 2nd for Lair (for Hydra's) for Air defense and Observers for dark templar.
On December 02 2010 14:28 Cheshyr wrote: I tried it a couple times tonight, as a lowly Bronze. In the most notable game, I failed to defend the first speedling rush from a Silver player, but managed to repel the 'lings using my excessive drone force. I recovered quickly, and won easily with Roaches.
I admit, it was an awful game, I'm a terrible player, and I executed the BO poorly. It still worked. I think I'm going to continue to use this build.
I'm glad you admit that, it's one of the first steps (admitting you have a problem. In my opinion, you didn't repel it, you lost your natural (drones) and a fair amount of your base drone's. At this point, you were WAY behind,and a second and third wave of 2 base speedlings (pumped by Queen's) would have ended the game in about 2-3 minutes, I assume (slightly before the roaches appeared).
You won, because your opponent bizarrely never took his naturally and then decided not to press when he had the advantage, but instead to macro without replacing his army he lost killing your drones. This is a mistake I've made (from ahead) but it's a newbie one and one you can't count on it past bronze,
You had nice drone output in the build, but without the gas, you are vulnerable to anything with the slightly amount of speed or DT. (stalkers, repears, helliions and fastlings come to mind). In my lowly opinion (take it for what it's worth), the first 200 gas needs to come fairly fast. The first 100 for speedlings and the 2nd for Lair (for Hydra's) for Air defense and Observers for dark templar.
I suspect that you are unaware of the purpose of this thread, Opus2.
I'm very interested in that build, but i wasn't confident for the ZvZ. But, i never went for hatch first in ZvZ, or maybe on shakuras if i want to bet a little.
I always went for 14 gaz 13 pool. Or something close ( 13 gaz/13 pool etc..). I want my speed asap, and some possible gaz after that, depends on my scout. I want t be able to follow an expend if my opponent FE ( then i pressure him with speed ling ) or i want to be able to go roache if he went bane with low econ.
It's just a feeling. What i love in that 11overpool isn't so much the forum battle about what's best éco, but it's the adaptability you can have, if i choose to drone, then apparently it's ok or maybe better, or not. But, it's a tiny difference so i don't care so much. I'll test it on the ladder, see how it feels.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
pure theorycraft here, but what if the 11 overpooling player was content to lose the first queen, and just used her and the hatch to tank some damage while lings poked at the zealots? With 2 early queens, usually the first does inject, then a tumor, getting creep headed down to the natural. She'd be out of energy, but free to guard the ramp and hatchery. 150 minerals for the queen, 200 more for 8 lings, vs your 2 zealots and a probe (more money for the Z given defender's advantage that early). Any ideas how that would play out? Sacrificing the queen in this situation wouldn't put the zerg too far behind, the second queen would cover injections, and larva would still be available for drones (compared to, say, trying to get 14 lings or something.)
You're better off just getting the hatch a little earlier. It's not like 11 pool requires 18 hatch. I suspect 11 overpool 16 hatch would be safer vs P.
Sounds like chopping off your arm to fix a papercut to me...
Honestly, this is all very theoretical without an actual game to see, but it seems to me like an 11 pool build would have no problem holding off a couple zealots... There is no chance a couple zealots are gonna take out a hatch when you have a queen inject about to finish to pump 8 lings.
A replay would sure help.
@ kcdc
Thanks for the possible tip. It's always good to know what may or may not be an issue. I don't know if you're right though. I would have to see some evidence.
I'm always of the opinion that any claims need to be backed up with some replays to examine. How do we know that the other player just didn't do something wrong. Perhaps they could have cut a drone or two and had enough lings out to defend by the time you got there. We can't really know since we can't see the game. I haven't tested your claim myself so unless I see a replay supporting what you say, or I test it myself and find out you are correct, I'll just keep it in the back of my mind as a possibility.
Make sure you save the replay next time. Also, if it does turn out that the creep is an issue, then making an early hatch is not that big of an issue. We went over that with the 13 Pool 15 Hatch debacle. You lose about 3 larva later in the game, which isn't good, but if you can't defend the 18 Hatch, which I don't even know is true, it's not that big of a deal.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
I believe the OP states that this is a very flexible build, and the player can fall back on heavy one base play. To me, that means seeing a 2gate heavy Zealot force and 1basing to Roaches until I feel confident enough to take my expo.
The 18 hatch isn't required; it's simply the most economical. However, circumstances change everything, and I know I wouldn't go for an expo vs a Toss player who is going to put on early pressure I can't fend off yet.
What I would do is simple:
Second Queen. Creep Tumor. Roaches/Speedlings--and then my hatch. The tumor gives ample creep spread to the natural, and affords you the opportunity to set down some crawlers. The units will fend off any heavy Gateway push, and you'll find yourself in a nice position.
I admit, it was an awful game, I'm a terrible player, and I executed the BO poorly. It still worked. I think I'm going to continue to use this build.
I'm glad you admit that, it's one of the first steps (admitting you have a problem. In my opinion, you didn't repel it, you lost your natural (drones) and a fair amount of your base drone's...
Gah, I need to remove that old replay. That was kinda of horrible. ;-) Not that I've suddenly gotten better or anything, but this thread is so far beyond that point now. That was what?.. page 4? Yeah, edited into oblivion.
The newer replay that I posted on this page is something else entirely. I'm not attempting to show real gameplay; just an example of a variation on the OPs build that gives you defense and gas. I chose 'ling speed, but that could easily have been roaches.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback on that old replay. I'm more focused on the new one now. :-)
I've been using this build on ladder I'm a 1950 gold, I can just feel a jump to platinum soon. But, I was wondering how to deal with a bunker rush. Should I not but the hatch down at 18 or just send some drones down to kill scv, and how many? I guess I'm also just asking how to deal with a bunker rush in general but specifically with the 11 overpool 18 hatch. Also if someone has any replays of them using this build to stop early pressure whether they be zealots, double stalkers, cannons, early marines, or bunker rushes that would make my day. Thanks!
On December 05 2010 04:55 ChiknAdobo wrote: I've been using this build on ladder I'm a 1950 gold, I can just feel a jump to platinum soon. But, I was wondering how to deal with a bunker rush. Should I not but the hatch down at 18 or just send some drones down to kill scv, and how many? I guess I'm also just asking how to deal with a bunker rush in general but specifically with the 11 overpool 18 hatch. Also if someone has any replays of them using this build to stop early pressure whether they be zealots, double stalkers, cannons, early marines, or bunker rushes that would make my day. Thanks!
When you get ready to expand just bring 2 workers to the nat, tell one to attack and micro the other one to attack until you see an opening to lay down the hatch. If you don't think you can do this just get 1 set of lings when pool finishes and use them. Also, send your second overlord to the natural so you'll have vision of any bunker / pylons they put down while it is building.
assuming villain is going for a 4gate and he is going to execute it well. When do you stop droning with this build? I've lost to every single 4gate since I stopped going hatch first.
For the people considering dropping their natural because of early pressure...the main reason for early zerg expansions isn't an economic one, it's larva.
Whether or not you can hold your natural under a given timing attack is debatable, but if you don't think so, or lack the skill or whatever, there is an alternative to just 1-base. Build another hatchery in your main.
Much easier to defend, and you keep your larva output high. You also don't need to spend queen energy on creep early.
I'm not saying do it every time, btw, just in those cases where you feel you are over-extending to build a hatch at the natural (or really any situation where you can't build at your natural for some reason).
On December 05 2010 05:33 dementrio wrote: assuming villain is going for a 4gate and he is going to execute it well. When do you stop droning with this build? I've lost to every single 4gate since I stopped going hatch first.
Have you taken a look at the replay against the 4gate?
I typically produce about 5 or so drones once my expo finishes, and then I devote 100% of my larvae to units if I am sure he is going 4gate. A couple spines, roaches, and lings are all you need most of the time. If he goes zealot heavy focus on roaches, and if he goes stalker/sentry heavy, then get more lings with speed. Keep adding on spines and units if it is a delayed push.
Just make sure you know when he is expanding, so you can switch back to 100% drones and not get behind economically.
You can see this in the game against the "MacroToss." I see the gates and focus on units, but as soon as my ling scouts the expo I pump drones and go for muta-tech with spines in the mean-time.
I am not sure why I keep losing to 4gates now, but I think it comes down to creep and queen timings. what I do is sac an overlord (if I cant get another scout in) around 25 food, and if I see the 4gate I immediately stop droning. However, with hatch first you get your 2 queens right after the pool finishes; I would immediately poop a tumor with one of them. I was able to get better creep spread around my nat so that I could engage his army farther away from my ramp as possible; I could also put my spines down further.
With this build I can't get creep and spines positioned properly around my nat. The enemy just has to force field the ramp to get an insta win...
with another build ive been trying (10pool, 2 fast queens) the problem is that the hatch goes down too late - pops at about the time the 4gate is pushing out.
On December 05 2010 07:36 dementrio wrote: I watched the 4gate replay, and I don't think it was a good example. His push hit about 2 minutes later than a well timed 4gate which is huge.
Hmmm are you sure about that? From watching the replay I see him getting 4 gateways very quickly, with only about 2 units to defend, then he chronoboosts warpgate and attacks immediately after warping in his second round of units, which were also chronoboosted. It is hard to see how much faster a 4gate could come, but maybe I am missing something here...
If you have a replay of a game you lost it would certainly help me help you.
EDIT: My mistake, he didn't chrono his core, he saved it all for warpgates :/
EPT
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