On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote: This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point.
a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time.
ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience.
has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in.
You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that.
I completely trust what you say kcdc but can we see a replay just so the timings are clear. I know there's a lot of variables like how many lings he has that change the way you respond but a replay would still be awesome if for nothing other than simply seeing the timings. I would offer to play a game with you to see the timings but I'm certain i won't be able to preform 11/18 to its full potential. Thanks in advance P.s. I know the games in which you did this weren't saved but i just mean if you see the build in the future please save the game for us
Will do.
I can't do it right now, but if anyone wants to test when your 2nd zealot finishes on 12-gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot, it'd be pretty easy to compare that to the timing when the 18-hatch finishes.
Queens are really weak off creep. As a general rule, if your build relies on defending early pressure with queens, you'd better have creep when that early pressure will arrive. In this case, I think you either need more lings or an earlier hatch.
On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote: This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point.
a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time.
ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience.
has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in.
You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that.
I completely trust what you say kcdc but can we see a replay just so the timings are clear. I know there's a lot of variables like how many lings he has that change the way you respond but a replay would still be awesome if for nothing other than simply seeing the timings. I would offer to play a game with you to see the timings but I'm certain i won't be able to preform 11/18 to its full potential. Thanks in advance P.s. I know the games in which you did this weren't saved but i just mean if you see the build in the future please save the game for us
Will do.
I can't do it right now, but if anyone wants to test when your 2nd zealot finishes on 12-gate -> gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot, it'd be pretty easy to compare that to the timing when the 18-hatch finishes.
Queens are really weak off creep. As a general rule, if your build relies on defending early pressure with queens, you'd better have creep when that early pressure will arrive. In this case, I think you either need more lings or an earlier hatch.
If you just want to look at the timings for when 2 zealots and a probe could poke then mustn't we assume that this causes an insta-lose for the timing to be relevant? I know I've held plenty of zealot/probe pokes with just a few zerglings and slow queen. Not to say that I'm awesome or a model of perfect play, but I just have trouble believing that this causes insta-lose until I see the actual replays, and not just the timings.
PM me if you'd like to exchange IDs and test this with you as toss.
It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
On December 04 2010 10:15 kcdc wrote: Queens are really weak off creep. As a general rule, if your build relies on defending early pressure with queens, you'd better have creep when that early pressure will arrive. In this case, I think you either need more lings or an earlier hatch.
But the build doesn't really rely on defending early pressure with queens, zerg can scout your response (delayed core, chrono boost on gateway) just fine with an overlord and make lings instead of drones. You're going for early pressure against an 11pool.
This seems like a pretty big risk as you have to choose if you're going to delay your core before he builds an expansion hatchery.
You aren't simply going up against a standard 18 Hatch. If the Zerg opponent is scouting like he should, he will easily detect that you are going for early zealot pressure and he will cut drone production and get a few lings. Once the threat is gone, Zerg is still in a great position to start droning hard and get his economy back on track.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
On December 04 2010 10:15 kcdc wrote: Queens are really weak off creep. As a general rule, if your build relies on defending early pressure with queens, you'd better have creep when that early pressure will arrive. In this case, I think you either need more lings or an earlier hatch.
But the build doesn't really rely on defending early pressure with queens, zerg can scout your response (delayed core, chrono boost on gateway) just fine with an overlord and make lings instead of drones. You're going for early pressure against an 11pool.
This seems like a pretty big risk as you have to choose if you're going to delay your core before he builds an expansion hatchery.
You need at least 6 lings to kill a zealot and a probe and at least 10 lings to kill 2 zealots and a probe. If the zealots are microed well, it can take more. That's not a cost-effective defense at a time where every drone produced is critical.
P delays core by a only few seconds by getting a zealot first. Nothing else is affected. It's perfectly safe and economical. I open this way against Zerg most of the time as it's a cheap way to force lings off of only 1 gateway without cutting probes or gas.
As for the issue of applying pressure against an 11 pool, 11 pool makes P want to get a zealot ASAP. When P sees that no larvae are saved for lings at the completion of the pool, P knows he can pressure with the zealot he's built.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
Supposing the zerg sees your zealot being produced and gets a roach lair or ling speed instead of an expo, is that a counter-build-order-loss? Or is toss smiling at that?
Would an in-base hatch followed by a delayed expansion hatch be ok?
This build seems promising vs toss. Since it's kinda risky to 14 hatch nowadays and this is the second most economic opening, it seems to make sense. I haven't tested it against early pressure though like 2 zealots + a probe, or 2 CBed stalkers so I don't know how it'll fare against something like that.
This was about as close to perfect as I could get, and it seems to corroborate his data. Now all we need to do is start cataloging the efficient combat unit responses, so we can capitalize on this flexibility.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
pure theorycraft here, but what if the 11 overpooling player was content to lose the first queen, and just used her and the hatch to tank some damage while lings poked at the zealots? With 2 early queens, usually the first does inject, then a tumor, getting creep headed down to the natural. She'd be out of energy, but free to guard the ramp and hatchery. 150 minerals for the queen, 200 more for 8 lings, vs your 2 zealots and a probe (more money for the Z given defender's advantage that early). Any ideas how that would play out? Sacrificing the queen in this situation wouldn't put the zerg too far behind, the second queen would cover injections, and larva would still be available for drones (compared to, say, trying to get 14 lings or something.)
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
The zerge can give up plenty of hits on his hatch from 1 zealot +1 probe. 1500 HP from 1 zealot + 1 probe is ~ 2mins of game time. That's enough time to start, move and burrow a Spine Crawler. If its started in your main base in time when your overlord sees the chrono boosted zealot that is plenty of time. As long as the zerg doesn't panic he can let the hatch tank 700 damage the first minute while getting a couple of lings and either a crawler or a queen to bring down to kill of the lots.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
pure theorycraft here, but what if the 11 overpooling player was content to lose the first queen, and just used her and the hatch to tank some damage while lings poked at the zealots? With 2 early queens, usually the first does inject, then a tumor, getting creep headed down to the natural. She'd be out of energy, but free to guard the ramp and hatchery. 150 minerals for the queen, 200 more for 8 lings, vs your 2 zealots and a probe (more money for the Z given defender's advantage that early). Any ideas how that would play out? Sacrificing the queen in this situation wouldn't put the zerg too far behind, the second queen would cover injections, and larva would still be available for drones (compared to, say, trying to get 14 lings or something.)
You're better off just getting the hatch a little earlier. It's not like 11 pool requires 18 hatch. I suspect 11 overpool 16 hatch would be safer vs P.
On December 04 2010 10:59 kcdc wrote: It doesn't have to be auto-loss for 18 hatch to be bad vs P. It just has to be more expensive to defend w/ an 18 hatch than it would be with an earlier hatch.
That said, I think 18 hatch is a build order loss to zealot before core.
lol wtf is this now? lmao...
Perhaps if you adjusted your attitude, the comments in this thread wouldn't be so hostile. The OP sets the tone.
I've only played it out twice, but I've explained what happened in both games and why I think 18 hatch is a BO loss to zealot before core. IMO, there's no efficient way to defend your morphing in nat against a 2 zealot + probe poke. If you wait to make your lings until the poke arrives, the probe creates a choke at the bottom of your ramp making zerglings extremely inefficient. If you try to prevent that with earlier lings and your queen, the queen can't micro because it doesn't have creep, so you need more zerglings than you would with an earlier hatch.
Without creep, defense is much more expensive. Protoss will be able to exploit that to develop a lead. In both of my games, I killed the hatch with minimal losses and ended the game quickly. That won't happen against a more careful Zerg, but there's no getting around the fact that a lack of creep will require a more expensive defense, and a more expensive defense will translate into a weaker economy.
There is no such thing as a BO loss with an 11 pool if the zerg is playing correctly and responding appropriately, that's all.
It's not the 11 pool that's a problem. It's the 18 hatch.
Zerg needs to defend the hatch at the nat efficiently to avoid falling behind. Zerg needs creep to defend efficiently against zealots. Zealots can arrive before the 18 hatch produces creep. Therefore, Protoss can develop a lead against an 18 hatch.
pure theorycraft here, but what if the 11 overpooling player was content to lose the first queen, and just used her and the hatch to tank some damage while lings poked at the zealots? With 2 early queens, usually the first does inject, then a tumor, getting creep headed down to the natural. She'd be out of energy, but free to guard the ramp and hatchery. 150 minerals for the queen, 200 more for 8 lings, vs your 2 zealots and a probe (more money for the Z given defender's advantage that early). Any ideas how that would play out? Sacrificing the queen in this situation wouldn't put the zerg too far behind, the second queen would cover injections, and larva would still be available for drones (compared to, say, trying to get 14 lings or something.)
You're better off just getting the hatch a little earlier. It's not like 11 pool requires 18 hatch. I suspect 11 overpool 16 hatch would be safer vs P.
Sounds like chopping off your arm to fix a papercut to me...
Honestly, this is all very theoretical without an actual game to see, but it seems to me like an 11 pool build would have no problem holding off a couple zealots... There is no chance a couple zealots are gonna take out a hatch when you have a queen inject about to finish to pump 8 lings.
probably you would want to be scouting at around the time the 1st gate is about to finish, to see if he is 2gating (watch for core, or for zlots) , building a zlot ASAP, or getting the core ASAP, and adjust accordingly. Not sure how the timings line up, maybe you need to blind 16hat before you know if he's going for the zlot.
If you scout with a drone when you hit 11 supply, you should be on time to scout the early zealot, and respond appropriately. Depending on your map, and if the drone survives, that drone could return about the time you start your hatch. This has happened a couple times while I was playing with this build. Don't have a replay for ya though.
EPT
