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On December 04 2010 08:16 Markwerf wrote:
Ugh @ jdseemoreglass.
I won't dispute that 11 pool is only a bit behind 13 pool (which should be 14 pool) in the short run and gets ahead in the long run IF YOU CAN DRONE UP BLINDLY. However you can't..
I don't even get why you even bother to post data beyond the 4:00 min mark, its completely irrelevant as you are NEVER playing a game without lings up to that point anyway.
Whatever build you're wanting to compare the 11pool against is going to need those same lings, gas, whatever. 11pool can do all the same things at approximately the same times, and both builds will take the exact same economic hit.
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On December 04 2010 08:16 Markwerf wrote:It's just retarded that after 20 pages of complaints about proper testing methods you still do a crappy test (ie, no gas, no scouting etc.) and then complain about the trolls while you're just stupid for doing silly tests.
The fact that 11 pool has a larvae waste while not being that significantly faster on the queen is more then enough evidence for a decent player to know it's a worse build economically. That you need days of testing and then even miss that conclusion is just extremely silly.
Ugh @ Markwerf
I'm glad you finally posted such a thorough analysis. I, like you, consider this problem solved. Thank you for showing us all the error of our ways. You've convinced me, and everyone else here, that not only are you right, but you are good. Since this issue is now completely solved thanks to your expert contribution, I guess nobody needs to post in this thread ever again. You're now free to go to other threads and solve their problems with equal grace and authority. Don't worry if this thread doesn't disappear right away from the top of the strategy forum, we'll just be deliberating to determine what award we're going to present you with. No peeking!
Psst... Did the troll leave yet?
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jd,
you'll be happy to know that I've convinced my friend that there might be a chance this build could be the build against protoss. It's all the extra larva. Good job optimizing the build up to its potential.
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Hey guys, I know many of you are testing this on the ladder. Feel free to post your replays for the rest of us to enjoy. Losses are fine too 
It would be nice to speed up the learning curve on how to respond to specific plays, etc... For example, knowing that this build can guaranteed kill a hatch-first zerg is helpful. What about forge-FE toss? And whatever else you come across.
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On December 04 2010 09:06 jdseemoreglass wrote:Hey guys, I know many of you are testing this on the ladder. Feel free to post your replays for the rest of us to enjoy. Losses are fine too It would be nice to speed up the learning curve on how to respond to specific plays, etc... For example, knowing that this build can guaranteed kill a hatch-first zerg is helpful. What about forge-FE toss? And whatever else you come across.
I'm currently using this exclusively in all MUs on the ladder (~2200-2300 diamond). As I get worthy replays I'll definitely post them. I'm sure I'll get a couple before the night is through.
@ JD
I added you to friends btw, friend me back if you wanna do any scrims or test 11/18 or others in ZvZ
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This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point.
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On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point.
Can you show us the replays of you beating it with toss? I'd be very interested to see this and the zergs response. Unless you are replay shy that is...
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Here's a replay of the best 11pool I was able to manage, by adjusting how I did the transfer, which gained 30 minerals at 6 mins over my previous best.
6 min stats:
4639 resources (spent + banked, which I think is 700 different from the stats in the graphs above)
51/52 supply, 44 drones, 6 overlords, 2 queens.
3 drones in production 1/17 3/17 16/17
Inject larvae status: 21/40 23/40
http://screplays.com/system/files/replays/13950/[scr13950](Z)Skrag_vs_(Z)Player_2_(Very_easy).SC2Replay
Here are the 6 minute stats from jacobman's 13pool/15hatch replay:
4630 resources
50/52, 44d 6ol 2q
6 drones in production 2/17x4 10/17 13/17
6:00 4000+200+430=4630 50/52 40d 6ol 2q 2/17x4 13/17 10/17
Inject status: 1/40 37/40
So the 11pool is equal on resources, ahead 4 drones completed, ahead 1 larvae overall, and about equal on injects (two halfway done vs one almost done)
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On December 04 2010 09:24 Skrag wrote:Here's a replay of the best 11pool I was able to manage, by adjusting how I did the transfer, which gained 30 minerals at 6 mins over my previous best. 6 min stats: 4639 resources (spent + banked, which I think is 700 different from the stats in the graphs above) 51/52 supply, 44 drones, 6 overlords, 2 queens. 3 drones in production 1/17 3/17 16/17 Inject larvae status: 21/40 23/40 http://screplays.com/system/files/replays/13950/[scr13950](Z)Skrag_vs_(Z)Player_2_(Very_easy).SC2ReplayHere are the 6 minute stats from jacobman's 13pool/15hatch replay: 4630 resources 50/52, 44d 6ol 2q 6 drones in production 2/17x4 10/17 13/17 6:00 4000+200+430=4630 50/52 40d 6ol 2q 2/17x4 13/17 10/17 Inject status: 1/40 37/40 So the 11pool is equal on resources, ahead 4 drones completed, ahead 1 larvae overall, and about equal on injects (two halfway done vs one almost done)
I'm really impressed that you guys keep managing to get more out the build. If better replays of the 11 pool had come out earlier we couldn't have needed to do all that discussing earlier  What may I ask did you actually do to eek out the extra 30 minerals?
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On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point.
a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time.
ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience.
has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in.
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On December 04 2010 09:23 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. Can you show us the replays of you beating it with toss? I'd be very interested to see this and the zergs response. Unless you are replay shy that is...
Replays aren't saved. I've played more than 10 games since. You can test it if you want. Get a gate on 10 or 12. Then go gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker. Attack with your first 2 zealots and a probe.
The hatch won't be done yet when the 2 zealots arrive, so there's no creep. If there aren't already lings at the nat, it's gg. You can either build 2 pylons at the bottom of the ramp to wall it off and attack the hatch until the rallied stalker arrives to shoot the zerglings plucking away at the pylons. Or you can build one pylon and wall off the rest of the ramp with your 2 zealots protecting your pylon till your rallied stalker arrives.
If there are 8 or fewer lings defending the nat, kill them. The queen most likely won't be there yet, but if she is, she's too slow to micro. If there are 10 lings, you can engage with step micro. You probably won't kill the hatch, but you'll kill most of the lings and your rallied stalkers will have a field day since zergling speed is ages away. If there are 12+ lings, Z will get the hatch up safely, but his economy is crap.
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On December 04 2010 09:40 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:23 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. Can you show us the replays of you beating it with toss? I'd be very interested to see this and the zergs response. Unless you are replay shy that is... Replays aren't saved. I've played more than 10 games since. You can test it if you want. Get a gate on 10 or 12. Then go gas -> zealot -> core -> zealot -> stalker. Attack with your first 2 zealots and a probe. The hatch won't be done yet when the 2 zealots arrive, so there's no creep. If there aren't already lings at the nat, it's gg. You can either build 2 pylons at the bottom of the ramp to wall it off and attack the hatch until the rallied stalker arrives to shoot the zerglings plucking away at the pylons. Or you can build one pylon and wall off the rest of the ramp with your 2 zealots protecting your pylon till your rallied stalker arrives. If there are 8 or fewer lings defending the nat, kill them. The queen most likely won't be there yet, but if she is, she's too slow to micro. If there are 10 lings, you can engage with step micro. You probably won't kill the hatch, but you'll kill most of the lings and your rallied stalkers will have a field day since zergling speed is ages away. If there are 12+ lings, Z will get the hatch up safely, but his economy is crap.
No, no, that's alright. I'll just wait for you to play another game and post the replay. This thread is already too full of people making claims and then asking other people to provide the proof. Not that I doubt your example, but I'd like to see the evidence so I can analyze it myself.
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..why is it being compared to 13pool/15hatch?
Who uses that build?
Oh wait, I must be trolling, time to ignore me!
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On December 04 2010 09:34 jacobman wrote:I'm really impressed that you guys keep managing to get more out the build. If better replays of the 11 pool had come out earlier we couldn't have needed to do all that discussing earlier What may I ask did you actually do to eek out the extra 30 minerals?
I just figured out a much better way to transfer. I had 5 drones that were going to complete around the same time as the second hatch, so I rallied them over to the expansion, and only pulled 2 workers from the main mineral line. In previous games, I think I had been letting those 5 drones go to the main, pulling 7 random drones off. Letting your workers continue in their routine can make a pretty big difference, because any workers that are bouncing around looking for patches to mine are basically contributing ZERO minerals to your economy.
Of course, the fact that a better transfer made that much of a difference means that how you manage your transfers can actually have a larger impact on your economy than what build you choose to use. lol
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On December 04 2010 09:37 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time. ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience. has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in.
You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that.
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On December 04 2010 09:48 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:37 Vaporized wrote:On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time. ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience. has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in. You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that.
Does expo creep even reach the ramp on most / any maps? I'm pretty sure that at least for the majority of maps having creep at the bottom of your ramp is going to depend on whether or not you use your first queen's 25 energy for a tumor or for larva.
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I see there's a lot of haters of the build. I'm no expert by any means, but I have been having quite a deal of success using this build on the ladder. Since I have started testing the build online, I have ran into several other Zergs using the build as well, so it is definitely gaining popularity on the ladder (1800+ diamond).
If you want to see the replays, go to the other thread (Ending the zerg economy debate) and I have several replays posted there, including one of me vs another zerg that used the Lomilar build. You are definitely able to drone hard and have a great economy, it just requires good scouting to know when you should build attacking units.
EDIT: Also, I would like to point one other thing out. While I do like this build quite a bit, there is one thing I miss about my 14 hatch/14 Hatch is the creep spread. It doesn't seem like I can spend my minerals quite right and get my creep spread as quickly with the 11pool/18 hatch. That faster hatch and immediate 2 queens is great for that purpose. Not necessarily a con, it's just something to be aware of as the build does play differently from hatch first builds.
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On December 04 2010 09:45 SovSov wrote:
..why is it being compared to 13pool/15hatch?
Who uses that build?
Oh wait, I must be trolling, time to ignore me!
YES YOU DAMN WELL ARE:
On December 02 2010 08:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
I requested build orders to test, and jacobman was the only one who provided. Therefore don't complain if you want to see 14 Pool or anything else compared, because I won't do it. Have a nice day.
It honestly doesn't matter how the OP is written because the trolls won't read it. In fact the trolls get dumber with every page that passes. It's fascinating to watch, in a car crash sort of way. Only it's more like after the car crash and some bastard has taught the head injury victim to type again and set them loose on this forum.
I am amazed that people still try to help with build orders. The 5RR thread started off with the OP explaining the disadvantages, even using the words insta-lose and the thread went for 40 pages, most of which was retards claiming the OP said the build was perfect.
Thankyou to the OP, and the 5 or so others that tried to make this a constructive thread - you know who you are.
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On December 04 2010 09:52 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:48 kcdc wrote:On December 04 2010 09:37 Vaporized wrote:On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time. ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience. has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in. You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that. Does expo creep even reach the ramp on most / any maps? I'm pretty sure that at least for the majority of maps having creep at the bottom of your ramp is going to depend on whether or not you use your first queen's 25 energy for a tumor or for larva.
Creep at the ramp to prevent pylon block is useful, but the bigger issue is queen mobility. You can use your queen for defense against zealots with an earlier hatch because zealots can't hit a microed queen on creep. 11 pool 18 hatch, if you use your queen for defense, you'll likely lose her.
The queen is incredibly important for defending zealot pokes. With creep, zealot defense works as follows:
Zerglings are fragile, so you never want zealots hitting zerglings. Zealots start out hitting the hatchery, but take ranged damage from the queen. Zerg lets the zealots hit the queen so that the lings can get in free DPS. If the queen gets low on health, Zerg pulls her back.
Without creep, you can't pull the queen back, so you can't engage the zealots unless your force is stronger.
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On December 04 2010 09:48 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:37 Vaporized wrote:On December 04 2010 09:21 kcdc wrote:
This opening has definitely jumped up in popularity on the ladder. I've played against it once in ZvZ (I won w/ 14 pool, but it wasn't a BO loss by any means) and a couple times as P. IMO, it's VERY easy to beat as P because the creep is too late on the expo. I killed the expo both times with 2 zealot + probe poke followed by rallied stalkers off 1 gateway. Z can't use spine crawlers and can't micro the queen away from zealots. No creep also means it's very easy to pylon block the ramp while you're attacking to cut off reinforcements. Without creep or zergling speed, you need to have 10+ zerglings at your nat before P can get 2 zealots from 1 gateway and cross the map. No hope of having a good economy at that point. a little queen micro and let them beat on your hatch while roaches pop is all you need. i think this build does best against toss imo. 2 zealots + probe is not going to kill a hatch anytime soon. focus the probe with the 2-4 lings u have out already. as soon as i see 2 gates go up before a cyber, throw down roach warren, and roaches will pop just in the nick of time. ive found spines are completely unneccesary, although i do put one down so they have something else to attack, and then cancel it before it finishes/dies. start ling speed asap, and then all the rest of your gas (off 1 geyser) towards roaches, extra minerals towards lings. this provides a lot of units. ive had several toss comment that they did not expect me to have so many units out so quickly. any kind of 3-4 gate push (even throw a robo in there for immortals) is absolutely no problem for this build in my experience. has anyone gone up against marine +scv rushes? i lost twice in a row to them today 11 pooling and it was very frustrating. i think 14 hatch on big maps is the way to go, so you can get that spine completed before they roll in. You understand that the issue is the lack of creep, right? Queen micro isn't an option. And yes, 2 zealots take a long time to kill a hatch (tho they'll kill it surprisingly quickly as it doesn't have structure armor while morphing), but the real deadline to have adequate defense is the arrival of the stalker. Once the stalker shows up, your only option to save your hatch is to beat zealots + stalker at a walled off choke with slow zerglings. There's no good way to do that.
I completely trust what you say kcdc but can we see a replay just so the timings are clear. I know there's a lot of variables like how many lings he has that change the way you respond but a replay would still be awesome if for nothing other than simply seeing the timings. I would offer to play a game with you to see the timings but I'm certain i won't be able to preform 11/18 to its full potential.
Thanks in advance
P.s. I know the games in which you did this weren't saved but i just mean if you see the build in the future please save the game for us
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EPT
