|
There is 0 point in testing up till 7 minutes....
The delay on drones 12-17 gives a pretty huge setback in minerals mined between a 13 pool and a 11 overpool build. THAT ALONE is enough to say a 11 overpool build is just much worse in economy then a 13 pool build.
In a realistic game you CAN'T make up the mineral setback by droning hard because you are forced to make some lings and scout! I can't believe how ignorant most of this thread is....
What good is it to sacrifice larvae only to get more larvae later?? That is exactly what this build is doing.. You cut larvae around 11 pop to get a earlier queen which gets you back more larvae at 17 pop, however anyone with brains can see that just getting a 13 pool and instead of getting more larvae just USING your extra minerals on stuff like gas, expanding, lings, roach warren or whatever is better in a scenario where you combine economy with actual army.
Doing this 7 minute vs the CPU tests or whatever is completely irrelevant as EACH real game has some action and thus deviation from any build going on before 5 minutes anyway....
11 pool is worse economically then 13 pool because you are roughly 100 minerals behind when the pool finishes at which point you have other expenses then droning up anyway...
This build is like comparing a terran 12 CC build to a 15 CC build. Sure at some point in time 12 CC might actually catch up to 15 CC because of more scv production but anyone with brains can see that cutting workers to get more worker production earlier is silly when you are not nearly at saturation at all... which is EXACTLY what the 11 pool is doing from a economical point of view.
11 pool is only good if you have
a) the intention or at least want the option to get very early lings or
b) think the response from your opponent to seeing your 11 pool does them more damage then a 11 pool does to you.
Option b is actually quite a viable reason to 11 pool but once again only works against people that would actually adjust against it, for example in ZvP a 11 pool is quite good occasionally as it can force P into inefficient builds, for example they might be inclined to even get a forge and cannon really quick. A 11 pool could also be more efficient for dealing with a pylon block then a 13 pool because you could get a few lings earlier, if someone ran a test on that it would actually be useful.
11 pool could also be nice in ZvZ as it quite safe against some rush builds but not too far behind against eco builds, in fact against some eco builds it can come out even if they overreact to the sight of the early pool. In this scenario you have to weigh out the advantage of not having to scout as fast (possible not at all if your overlord reaches them in time) and them being forced into early lings because of seeing a 11 pool.
Overall I think it's an ok build for ZvZ and ZvP on 2 player maps as you can potentially safe some money by not needing to scout (as the ovie and early couple lings can do that instead) and they might be put off their regular timings (for example you can punish a pylon block with early lings and might even get in their base with lings against a 9 pylon -> scout + 14 gate).
In ZvT however it's horrible imo as T isn't really forced to deviate from their build by scouting 11 pool (they got their wall-in anyways) and you will only behind economically as you are forced to make some lings against T anyway. The build being crap against T also makes it a liability against random.
|
On December 04 2010 04:40 Markwerf wrote:
There is 0 point in testing up till 7 minutes....
The delay on drones 12-17 gives a pretty huge setback in minerals mined between a 13 pool and a 11 overpool build. THAT ALONE is enough to say a 11 overpool build is just much worse in economy then a 13 pool build.
In a realistic game you CAN'T make up the mineral setback by droning hard because you are forced to make some lings and scout! I can't believe how ignorant most of this thread is....
The numerous replays and tests in this thread currently refute that. At most, it seems like 13 & 11 pool are roughly equal in terms of economy. Being as the entire basis of your argument revolves around this assertion, it'd be helpful to provide some replays or some collateral to prove your point.
Furthermore, Starcraft is often about making small sacrifices now to set yourself up to have more capacity later on. The only point you'd have with regard to sacrificing larva now for more later on is if you couldn't actually spend the larva you had - e.g. do a 16 hatch, 15 pool double queen build - you can't really spend the larva if you inject both hatcheries [ed]right when the Queens spawn[/ed].
|
On December 04 2010 04:23 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:21 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 04 2010 04:17 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
Guys, please, just give me a solid build order to follow. That's all I ask. Also I'll try the 11 pool idea if I'm up for it later. In theory it makes sense that it shouldn't have any noticeable economy losses since it reaches the state of 1 hatch 1 pool 1 ovie and 14 drones only two seconds behind the 13 pool version. Who knows what random effects the two seconds might have on the econ, but I can't think of any big ones off the top of my head. Since I don't have any previous data on it yet though, I'm going to hold off until I settle the 13 pool 15 hatch vs 11 pool 18 hatch issue I can't even understand this... You are getting a hatch at 15? Then you get another two drones and a queen at 16? Won't we be waiting longer to afford the queen and everything else following the hatch? No, when I test it I would get the queen at 14 just like the 13 hatch version. The only difference is in how I get the early pool. Everything after the hatch would be the same. Supposedly I hear that getting to the hatch through the overpool method only delays the whole process by two seconds. I'm not going to test this idea until later though. It's not as important as hashing out the difference between hatch at 15 or hatch at 18
Supposedly it only delays the hatch by 2 seconds?  I provided a replay that shows it happening -- a replay I believe you already watched. And you don't have to cling to those 2 seconds as if it were straw in the ocean :p A drone takes ~5 seconds to mine minerals, which means that those 2 seconds are literally the difference in drone pathing (when 13/15 puts down the hatch at 2:37, 11/15 is at 284-289 minerals).
On December 04 2010 04:40 Markwerf wrote:
There is 0 point in testing up till 7 minutes....
The delay on drones 12-17 gives a pretty huge setback in minerals mined between a 13 pool and a 11 overpool build. THAT ALONE is enough to say a 11 overpool build is just much worse in economy then a 13 pool build.
In a realistic game you CAN'T make up the mineral setback by droning hard because you are forced to make some lings and scout! I can't believe how ignorant most of this thread is....
What good is it to sacrifice larvae only to get more larvae later?? That is exactly what this build is doing.. You cut larvae around 11 pop to get a earlier queen which gets you back more larvae at 17 pop, however anyone with brains can see that just getting a 13 pool and instead of getting more larvae just USING your extra minerals on stuff like gas, expanding, lings, roach warren or whatever is better in a scenario where you combine economy with actual army.
You require clarification on what it means to sacrifice larva. The hatch naturally produces 1 larva per 15 in game seconds. This means that in order to waste larva your hatch must sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds. Only if this occurs have you wasted larva. 11/18 does not waste larva. If you believe it does, then clearly you are theory-babbling and haven't actually watched the replays. The hatch only sits at 3 larva for 6 seconds right as you put the pool down. Six, for the record, is less than 15. This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva. If you disagree, feel free to put more effort into supplying data instead of bad-mouthing those of us who have.
@JD
You might want to add that to the OP -- that this build does not waste larva because it only sits on 3 larva for 6 seconds, and as far as I know you can't build anything with 6/15ths of a larva.
|
On December 04 2010 03:31 DemiAlbedo wrote:I have been diligently following this thread and the thread below for the last 3 days. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481I believe the thread above is actually what spawned this very in-depth and educational thread. I personally have been trying a 12 overpool lately, because of some of the counter replies to this thread. Yes the proposed builds are not 100% because they do not account for scouts, harass, gas, tech, etc. That is the exact same reason why I took it upon myself to take these proposed builds and try to refine them more. What I'm testing right now. 12 overlord (double extractor trick) 12 Pool 12 - Send the 12th drone to scout for me 14 gas (Drops drones to 13) 15 overlord 15 queen 17 ling - To deny scouting/stop earlier 18 overlord 18 hatchery The overlord at 15 and 18 are to give me a large gap in supply so when the queen pops her first larva I can either A) Mass drone or B) Mass lings if my 12 scout sees danger. ** I also place three drones in gas and do not remove them.** **In case anyone is curious I start teching at the 6:00 mark** I think the work here everyone is doing is great and I encourage everyone to keep up the good work. I figured I would toss in my BO in case someone wants to help refine or compare it with other builds. So far I have only tried this build against one toss that tried a three gated blink stalker rush. I won hands down because I was able to prevent early aggression on my expansion and begin saturating fast. He tried several blink pushes, but I was able to mass lings without an issue. I've been doing 12pool in ZvT for about 3 months now and 9 overlord is superior to double extractor trick -> overlord. The way you can tell is by watching your larvae timings, with a regular 9 overlord you will always have time to make a drone after the pool without getting capped at 3 larvae, while with double extractor trick you sometimes(depending on how well you do the trick) will manage to just make that drone, but more often than not, you will be larva capped for about 2 seconds or so.
Thanks to the above information and the fact that with a 9 OL, your 12th drone will begin mining before you start the pool(meaning you are exactly equal in income) 9 overlord gets the minerals for 12 drones, an overlord and a pool before double extractor trick does. Which means that at the point of starting the pool, you are exactly equal in economy but 9OL gets to that point earlier.
Not to mention the fact that there's just no way to mess up 9OL. ^^
|
On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
Note: when I began producing lings, we both had exactly 17 drones. I wasn't behind a drone, or half a drone, or whatever...
Note: I didn't catch up in drones due to a queen, I was caught up before I started my first inject!
Note: At every point from 1:30 until 4:30 when I began making lings, I was AHEAD in minerals mined!
Chill out ffs.
In that replay, you were ahead of a 15hatch, that is true, for two reasons: first, because he sent an early scout. Second, because he saved larvae for lings as soon as his pool was done. Had he not done either of those things, you would not have been ahead in either drones or minerals mined.
You were ahead, but it's not because 11OP is ahead of 15 hatch, it's because of the choices the 15hatch player made in the game. So no, you haven't demonstrated the build isn't behind, you've demonstrated that it's not behind a hatch-first player who doesn't try to maximize their economy like you were.
Of course, hatch-first without an early scout is very risky, and it's perfectly reasonable for him to want to save larvae for lings after seeing an 11pool.
|
On December 04 2010 05:06 Obsolescence wrote:
You require clarification on what it means to sacrifice larva. The hatch naturally produces 1 larva per 15 in game seconds. This means that in order to waste larva your hatch must sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds. Only if this occurs have you wasted larva. 11/18 does not waste larva. If you believe it does, then clearly you are theory-babbling and haven't actually watched the replays. The hatch only sits at 3 larva for 6 seconds right as you put the pool down. Six, for the record, is less than 15. This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva. If you disagree, feel free to put more effort into supplying data instead of bad-mouthing those of us who have.. This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post).
Edit: Read your post again and realized you are actually aware that this is the case. How in the world can you not agree that "holding up the queue" is not a waste of larva? Every single natural larva for the rest of the game(assuming macro does not slip) will be delayed for 6 seconds. FYI, a drone mines 5 minerals in roughly 7,5 seconds which would mean that every single drone you make, will mine 5 minerals less than if larva were not delayed. Sure, assuming you can still make something out of all your future larva, that's not really an issue, but at the point where you place the pool, you are definitely wasting larvae until you can "catch up"(which a queen will mind you). You still have to accept that you are wasting larvae until you can actually remedy the loss.
Edit2: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to disprove the validity of the build, just trying to clear up what people mean by "wasting larva".
|
I did some testing of the extractor trick on my own a while back and found it's benefit to minerals to be rather trivial.
So my question is this. Is the 11 Ovie important for some other timing reasons? Would a 10ovie 11 pool work nearly just as well without the extra drone dance? Maybe 11 ovie prevents you sitting at 3 larva at your hatch and so doesn't buy you much minerals but an extra larva. I would do the dance for an extra larva, not for 6 minerals or whatever it works out to.
I'm really looking forward to trying this build out tonight.
|
On December 04 2010 05:20 Alsn wrote:
This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post).
This is correct, and obsolescence is the one theory-babbling about larva waste, clearly not understanding how it works. As soon as you hit 3 larvae, you're wasting larva spawn time.
I *believe* the way it works internally is this:
There's a counter that goes up to 15. When the counter reaches 15, a larva is spawned, and the counter is reset. If there are ever 3 or more larvae at the hatchery, the timer is paused. So, when the third larva spawns, the timer is reset to zero and paused there, because there are 3 larvae. When larvae from an inject come in, the timer will pause at whatever it was at, until there are less than 3 larvae.
So the inject does pause the timer, but doesn't reset it. That seems to be how it works, anyway.
|
On December 04 2010 05:20 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:06 Obsolescence wrote:
You require clarification on what it means to sacrifice larva. The hatch naturally produces 1 larva per 15 in game seconds. This means that in order to waste larva your hatch must sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds. Only if this occurs have you wasted larva. 11/18 does not waste larva. If you believe it does, then clearly you are theory-babbling and haven't actually watched the replays. The hatch only sits at 3 larva for 6 seconds right as you put the pool down. Six, for the record, is less than 15. This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva. If you disagree, feel free to put more effort into supplying data instead of bad-mouthing those of us who have.. This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post).
I know the section you quoted was a lengthy 10 sentences, but I think you might have might have missed sentence #9 where I clearly stated your point:
On December 04 2010 05:06 Obsolescence wrote:
This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva.
In order to waste a larva, you must remain on 3+ larva for 15 in game seconds. Yes, while you sit on 3+ larva the timer has reset and remains frozen until you have less than 3 larva. This means that if you sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds a cycle should have completed which would have produced another larva. If you don't sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds, then you have only delayed your future larva, but you are not lacking a larva.
On December 04 2010 05:31 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:20 Alsn wrote:
This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post). This is correct. As soon as you hit 3 larvae, you're wasting larva spawn time. I *believe* the way it works internally is this: There's a counter that goes up to 15. When the counter reaches 15, a larva is spawned, and the counter is reset. If there are ever 3 or more larvae at the hatchery, the timer is paused. So, when the third larva spawns, the timer is reset to zero and paused there, because there are 3 larvae. When larvae from an inject come in, the timer will pause at whatever it was at, until there are less than 3 larvae. So the inject does pause the timer, but doesn't reset it. That seems to be how it works, anyway.
Consider NASCAR. Two cars on the track, car #2 is behind car #1 by 4 seconds. It would be incorrect to state that car #2 is a lap behind car #1. Even if car #1 had just crossed the line with car #2 trailing, until car #1 laps car #2 the difference between them is 4 seconds - not a lap.
|
On December 04 2010 05:32 Obsolescence wrote:
In order to waste a larva, you must remain on 3+ larva for 15 in game seconds. Yes, while you sit on 3+ larva the timer has reset and remains frozen until you have less than 3 larva.
Uh, I think you have a very strange definition of "waste", that seems to only care if an entire larva is wasted.
If a larva is delayed by 10 seconds because you sat at 3 larva, then you have wasted 10 seconds of larvae spawn time, and therefore delayed all of your larva.
To say nothing was actually wasted until you lose a full 15 seconds is ridiculous, because whatever you make out of that larva will come 10 seconds later, which is very relevant.
And your nascar example just confirms that you have a very skewed perception of larva waste. Yes, car 2 is not a full lap behind car 1, but it would be just as incorrect to say that car 2 is not losing the race. Waste happens anytime you lose spawn time, not just when you're a full "lap" behind. 10 seconds is 10 seconds.
|
On December 03 2010 23:00 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 22:01 Providence wrote:On December 03 2010 19:09 Geo.Rion wrote:
i just canot believe this is the most economic pool first opening. It seems weak, i have to try but i have strong doubts.
ok, i watched a rep, the 4 gate. What level is this? Silver? The guy has energy maxed out on nexus before the warpgate finishes, he used like 3 chronoboosts in the entire game, 1 on the warp tech, 2 on the probes, could be 1. Also he had like 40 apm.
He attacked at ~8:10, just FYI the 4 gates i'm dealing with come around 6th minute mark, had even at 5:30, 9th minutes is even late for 4 gate blinkstalker attack.
So i have no idea if this build actually suffers from early agression so far. Gonna watch some more, really not impressed so far The 6 minute 4-gate attacks are typically the 1-gas zealot/stalker only attacks. This player wanted some sentries, mostly to range against roaches. The timing of the 4 gate being slower doesn't mean the attack is weaker. Whether or not the play or micro was great I don't know, but normally with pool into hatch builds you can hold off the 4-gate with 2-5 spines, roaches, lings, and stalling for hydra tech. with an earlier pool, I imagine this would even be easier to deal with as your queen's out even earlier, with even more larvae to use (compared to say a 14 pool/15 hatch). On a map like metalopolis. This isn't happening. 6 minutes is awfully fast you don't have time to get both roaches and spine crawlers. The 4 gate with 1 gas is far more powerful, but far more "allin" since with sentries you can defend an expo against mass lings. The OP tried to tell me that 11 pool is ahead in minerals over a 15 hatch 15 pool up to 4:30. To me this indicates some gross error because delaying drones to get an 11 pool, and losing a drone for 30 or so more seconds for the faster pool means it must necessarily be behind in minerals mined. Now it seems its not that big, there's no way it should be ahead until the first inject drones come, unless the 15 hat 15 pool is saving a lot of larva. The reason the pros haven't found this is because they don't spend their day theorycrafting, they just play the game and hone their skills.
Yes I know Zealot/Stalker 4-gates are stronger in close positions. Which further shows the strength of this build in that the delayed hatch leaves you with the option of not going hatch at all and switching to one base roach, which is quite strong against the early 4-gate all-in. If you 15 pool upon scouting close positions on metalopolis, you're stuck with a later pool, later queen, and less larvae when the attack comes. Whereas if you 11 overpool and end up scouting cross positions you can transition into an 18 hatch with (seemingly) similar economies to a 15 hatch, OR scouting close positions throw down gas and roach warren and prepare to one base roach instead of fast expanding. You can't do that if you're going for a 15 hatch build, and then stumble upon close positions, and scramble to throw up a 15 pool.
|
On December 04 2010 05:32 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:20 Alsn wrote:On December 04 2010 05:06 Obsolescence wrote:
You require clarification on what it means to sacrifice larva. The hatch naturally produces 1 larva per 15 in game seconds. This means that in order to waste larva your hatch must sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds. Only if this occurs have you wasted larva. 11/18 does not waste larva. If you believe it does, then clearly you are theory-babbling and haven't actually watched the replays. The hatch only sits at 3 larva for 6 seconds right as you put the pool down. Six, for the record, is less than 15. This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva. If you disagree, feel free to put more effort into supplying data instead of bad-mouthing those of us who have.. This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post). I know the section you quoted was a lengthy 10 sentences, but I think you might have might have missed sentence #9 where I clearly stated your point: Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:06 Obsolescence wrote:
This means that although your subsequent larva are now all delayed by 6 in game seconds, you have not wasted any larva. In order to waste a larva, you must remain on 3+ larva for 15 in game seconds. Yes, while you sit on 3+ larva the timer has reset and remains frozen until you have less than 3 larva. This means that if you sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds a cycle should have completed which would have produced another larva. If you don't sit on 3 larva for 15 seconds, then you have only delayed your future larva, but you are not lacking a larva. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 05:31 Skrag wrote:On December 04 2010 05:20 Alsn wrote:
This is wrong, every time you reach 3 larva, you are saccing larva. The 15 second timer completely stops as soon as you reach 3 or more larva(although there is something weird going on with injects, I haven't figured it out yet but it seems to be either separate or at least differentiate between "regular" and "injected" larva but as far as regular larva before you even have a queen, what I describe in this post is correct). Which means every second you spend on 3 larva is a second that all future larva will be delayed. This most definitely happens if you 11 overpool and the very earliest pool you can make without wasting larva is a 12pool(with 9OL as I state in the above post). This is correct. As soon as you hit 3 larvae, you're wasting larva spawn time. I *believe* the way it works internally is this: There's a counter that goes up to 15. When the counter reaches 15, a larva is spawned, and the counter is reset. If there are ever 3 or more larvae at the hatchery, the timer is paused. So, when the third larva spawns, the timer is reset to zero and paused there, because there are 3 larvae. When larvae from an inject come in, the timer will pause at whatever it was at, until there are less than 3 larvae. So the inject does pause the timer, but doesn't reset it. That seems to be how it works, anyway. Consider NASCAR. Two cars on the track, car #2 is behind car #1 by 4 seconds. It would be incorrect to state that car #2 is a lap behind car #1. Even if car #1 had just crossed the line with car #2 trailing, until car #1 laps car #2 the difference between them is 4 seconds - not a lap.
I tend to agree with the other guy. It makes more sense to say you're losing larva production as soon as you are at three. Using your argument we could say that if you sit at three larva for thirty seconds you're not actually losing any larva. It's just that your larva cycle has been delayed by thirty seconds.
If you say, but after 15 seconds you would have had an extra larva at that point. I can point out the same thing for six seconds, which is less than 15. From 15 - 21 seconds you're one larva behind. Then from 30 - 36 seconds you're one larva behind again, so you really have lost 6/15ths of a larva. Also, I believe it's 14 seconds per larva, but that's inconsequential.
|
On December 04 2010 04:40 Markwerf wrote:
There is 0 point in testing up till 7 minutes....
The delay on drones 12-17 gives a pretty huge setback in minerals mined between a 13 pool and a 11 overpool build. THAT ALONE is enough to say a 11 overpool build is just much worse in economy then a 13 pool build.
But getting drones 10 and 11 much earlier make the setback a lot less than you're making it out to be. Apparently enough to where an 18 hatch turns it into possibly the 2nd greatest economic build. Some testing is still going on, but I want to throw this in there in case your definitive language makes easily influenced people actually believe you have the final opinion.
|
lol my current build is the complete 180 degree strategy... i fool people with a 16 pool, then a 16 double extractor, which early on I only use to get important metabolic boost and Lair tech faster. I use my 6th sense when it comes to cheese - I scout with a drone then with an overlord poke and have usually a pair of lings for towers and to deny scouting. I'm pretty sure this is a good build too, however I think I might need someone of higher caliber to play-test/confirm it.
|
On December 04 2010 04:32 Wordpad wrote:
Am I the only one enjoying the drama?
Oh and please make a new thread or something when you guys finally have a build order done for me? Thx
edit: Sorry bad attempt of being funny. But cant all this discussion be put into the Evolution Chamber, utilizing the way-points to actually prove something?
If we were using the Evo Chamber then this thread and build wouldn't exist to begin with. And there will never be a build order done. Everyone will play it in different ways. I'm sorry this is inconvenient for those who don't have the game sense to adapt properly.
|
what is zergs most important resource?
LARVA. this build gets you more of them sooner.
that alone is enough to make me pay attention.
|
Ok, so I've tried many times now, even playing the entire game on slower speed, and I can't get 11p/18h to beat 13p/15h in minerals at the 6 minute mark, despite being able to beat the counts in the OP replays by quite a bit by being absolutely perfect on slower. 11P does have 4 more completed drones, and 1 more total supply, but my best run comes short of jacobman's count by 31 minerals, at 4599 compared to 4630.
And I'm guessing that if I did his 13 pool build playing on slowest, and working out the absolute best overlord times (which are slightly off in the OP btw, most of them are too early), I could probably beat his 4630 count by a decent amount.
I suspect the main reason it's ahead mineralwise despite being behind on drones is because just before the 18hatch finishes, the main is oversaturated, and the 15hatch probably prevents early oversaturation.
The 11P is ahead slightly up to the 5:30 mark (2669vs2610@4:00, 3019vs2965@4:30, and 3414vs3390@5:00), but since we already know it *shouldn't* be ahead, at least not at the 4 minute mark, I'm more than happy to chalk that up to the fact that I was playing near-perfectly (slower gives you TONS of time to do shit) in my replay and he wasn't in his, and he even admits to not working out ideal overlord times.
|
On December 04 2010 06:39 Skrag wrote:
Ok, so I've tried many times now, even playing the entire game on slower speed, and I can't get 11p/18h to beat 13p/15h in minerals at the 6 minute mark, despite being able to beat the counts in the OP replays by quite a bit by being absolutely perfect on slower. 11P does have 4 more completed drones, and 1 more total supply, but my best run comes short of jacobman's count by 31 minerals, at 4599 compared to 4630.
And I'm guessing that if I did his 13 pool build playing on slowest, and working out the absolute best overlord times (which are slightly off in the OP btw, most of them are too early), I could probably beat his 4630 count by a decent amount.
I suspect the main reason it's ahead mineralwise despite being behind on drones is because just before the 18hatch finishes, the main is oversaturated, and the 15hatch probably prevents early oversaturation.
The 11P is ahead slightly up to the 5:30 mark (2669vs2610@4:00, 3019vs2965@4:30, and 3414vs3390@5:00), but since we already know it *shouldn't* be ahead, at least not at the 4 minute mark, I'm more than happy to chalk that up to the fact that I was playing near-perfectly (slower gives you TONS of time to do shit) in my replay and he wasn't in his, and he even admits to not working out ideal overlord times.
Lol I just tried to do it and ended up doing 13 pool 15 hatch... It works beautifully I get supply capped at around 15 min with no pressure. I think what I am doing is not that efficient. Must get the Evolution Chamber working for me now lol.
Edit Got the Lomilar file to work...Let's see if rushing 60 drones gives around 11p/18h
---Final Output---
At time: 6:38
Minerals: 563 Gas: 0 Supply: 66/70 Larva: 4
Drones: 60
Overlords: 8
Queens: 3
Bases: 1
Spawning Pools: 1
That's for 15h/17p... not sure if it is fully optimized yet 
|
i didnt read through all the comments, ill do it 2morow, but i played the build on ladder few hours ago, a few times, and i find it good, alho i went 14 gas 13 pool vs tosses, so i kinda miss my early speedlings, but i like the build. Great job ppl!!
|
Skrag,
Could you post the replay of the 11 pool test you did? You said you had four extra drones? That's huge. My tests always showed about 42 for the 13/15 and 43 for the 11/18.
I've got news too. I did another replay. Here is is.
7:00 13 Pool 15 Hatch test
This one fixes the issue that jd brought up about my last overlord in the replay being a few seconds late. When I used the correct overlord timing, the number for me did drop to 4570, BUT I went back to the old replay to try and figure out why this is.
What I ended up noticing was that at the time of the last correctly timed overlord I did (43 was actually correct, it was in a group of 5 so it could actually be considered lower if you really wanted), which was at 5:29, I was already 45 minerals behind my old best attempt in my new attempt. 4570+45 = 4615, which is about the original number. This means the difference in this build isn't because of the change in the overlord timing. I was just less efficient somewhere. I'm starting to think the 4620ish is about the maximum that the 13 Pool 15 Hatch can get if played absolutely perfectly.
Since Skrag here said that the best he could do was 4599, I'm about ready to say that the builds are so close economically that it doesn't matter, with a probable extractors worth you could eek out of the 13 pool. The differences obviously are really the hatch timing and larva. If Skrag can provide a replay of him getting 4 extra drones, that would be huge, but for now I have a 1 larva advantage to the 11 pool. The trade off is maybe an extractors worth of minerals and about a 20 seconds quicker hatch. Personally I'm ignoring the 13 second slower pool for the 13 pool because I don't think you'll ever actually need those 13 seconds.
The only last thing I'm going to check is what happens to the 15 hatch build when an 11 overpool is used instead of a 13 pool.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
