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On December 04 2010 03:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
You need to calm down, man. You haven't demonstrated this. You just haven't. If you want to put an end to this, graph drones and minerals mined of an 11 overpool/18 hatch vs a 14 pool/16 hatch from 2:30 to 5:00. I will be surprised if 11 overpool is less than 100 minerals behind at 5:00.
Although I usually love asking him to do things, I think here it's your job. He provided you with a replay of the build. If you really want to show that the 14 pool 16 hatch comes out ahead in some way, you have to make a replay and compare them yourself first. Otherwise you're just guessing.
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I have been diligently following this thread and the thread below for the last 3 days.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
I believe the thread above is actually what spawned this very in-depth and educational thread.
I personally have been trying a 12 overpool lately, because of some of the counter replies to this thread. Yes the proposed builds are not 100% because they do not account for scouts, harass, gas, tech, etc. That is the exact same reason why I took it upon myself to take these proposed builds and try to refine them more.
What I'm testing right now.
12 overlord (double extractor trick)
12 Pool
12 - Send the 12th drone to scout for me
14 gas (Drops drones to 13)
15 overlord
15 queen
17 ling - To deny scouting/stop earlier
18 overlord
18 hatchery
The overlord at 15 and 18 are to give me a large gap in supply so when the queen pops her first larva I can either A) Mass drone or B) Mass lings if my 12 scout sees danger.
** I also place three drones in gas and do not remove them.**
**In case anyone is curious I start teching at the 6:00 mark**
I think the work here everyone is doing is great and I encourage everyone to keep up the good work.
I figured I would toss in my BO in case someone wants to help refine or compare it with other builds.
So far I have only tried this build against one toss that tried a three gated blink stalker rush. I won hands down because I was able to prevent early aggression on my expansion and begin saturating fast. He tried several blink pushes, but I was able to mass lings without an issue.
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On December 04 2010 03:29 kcdc wrote:
Ran a quick test. With a scout at about the same time, 11 overpool is about 100 minerals mined behind 14 pool at 4:40 game time. Larvae injection pops earlier for 11 overpool. If you want more early minerals and your hatch to finish earlier, go with 14 pool. If you want more larvae (could be drones, could be units), go with 11 overpool.
ok thanks
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On December 04 2010 03:17 Zeddicus wrote:
Thanks OP, I'm loving this build... Was using it last night in some 3v3s, it's pretty strong. Lings come out so fast! It is indeed very versatile. I really like it!
The 11 pool is pretty powerful in team games. If you cut everything at 13 you can get a queen, 6 lings, and a few seconds later extractor trick to 8 lings. In almost every map, you can safely 18 hatch because you'll have enough scouting information by that point.
I've been doing a lot of rushes with something like:
11 Pool
13 Queen
15-18 Ling
18 Extractor Trick Ling
19 Overlord
19 Gas
@100 Gas: Ling Speed pull drones off Gas
From there you can pump Lings constantly and you'll slowly build a surplus. When you get 300, expand and pump drones through to your next inject and put guys back on gas. You can go for a pretty decent muta/ling timing push with 8 mutas and about 34 - 40 speedlings without any resource trading.
I play with a T partner, so combining that ling push with 2 rax before orbital is a lot of fun. It's a rush, but it's not so all-in that we lose if it fails ( though we probably need to do some damage ). I reckon if you abused mules properly ( we don't ), you could do a lot more with this build.
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On December 04 2010 03:26 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 03:17 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:46 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171049.jpg) Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead. 11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things: 15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals! Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference. Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00. I see what you're trying to say now. The flaw in the logic that I see though is that you're extending the conclusion for the 11 pool 15 hatch modification to the 11 pool 18 hatch. You just prove that the 11 overpool only put you two seconds behind compared to a 13 pool, which has no bearing on if a 15 pool or 18 pool work better. As long as the 2 second difference doesn't have some unforseen consequences that I'm not anticipating, the 11 pool 15 hatch technically should be able to reach pretty much the same economy as the 13 pool version. I would have to test it a few times to make sure I'm not missing something, but it makes sense. I also noticed you made an extra drone before the first queen. That might account for some of the mineral discrepancy. Also, I think you made a mistake somehow with your minerals mined method. I didn't double check yet, but the only difference between my method and yours that I can think of would be the minerals lost in the extractor trick. I simply take the minerals spent and add the minerals I have to get the total minerals "mined". It's not the exact minerals mined because the game includes 700 minerals worth of what you start with, but the difference between the two replays should still be the same either way, 160. I explicitly discarded the results after the hatch goes down, because of poor maynarding and, yes, i got a 15-queen instead of 14-queen. I don't see what people don't like about my method for minerals mined. It does take a little longer to calculate, but it is 100% accurate. There is no possibility for error. 1500 minerals in a new patch. If at time X there are less than 1500 minerals in that patch, then the player must have mined them. By counting this difference, we don't have to worry if someone did or did not build Y overlord or Z drones as they approached the 6:00 mark. This method won't allow a player to game the system to get a small boost. Although, I suppose you would need to subtract 7 (or 6?) from a player if they use the extractor trick since those are minerals which are mined and lost.
Your mineral method is just more work. Like jd basically said, the other method has no room for error either. There is a difference between the two methods though. You count minerals when they are taken from the patch. We count them when they reach the hatch.
I think the second way is slightly better since you can't actually use the minerals until they get to the hatch. Also keep in mind that each patch is a different amount of time away from the hatch so even if you got five minerals at one patch, it may be worth less than 5 at another since the other patch might get to the hatch earlier. These are all small differences though. Either way is fine with me though.
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On December 04 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 03:08 kcdc wrote:On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
You need to calm down, man. You haven't demonstrated this. You just haven't. If you want to put an end to this, graph drones and minerals mined of an 11 overpool/18 hatch vs a 14 pool/16 hatch from 2:30 to 5:00. I will be surprised if 11 overpool is less than 100 minerals behind at 5:00. No, I am done beating my head against a wall. This will clearly never end. I could waste hours of my life proving with the most meticulous testing and graphing and argumentation, and someone would come out and say "well what about THIS build. Or THAT circumstance. You are behind that!" Just believe whatever you want to believe. I no longer care in the slightest.
I just did the tests. People keep arguing with you because you're missing something important. 11 overpool 18 hatch gets drones 12-17 later than 14 pool 16 hatch. That manifests itself in minerals mined. Your tests are good, but they're not showing critical early data. Your earliest data point is 4:30 when the extra drones from the 11 overpool larva injection are already kicking in. If you go back to 2:30, you'll see another story. 11 overpool sacrificies ~100 early minerals compared to a 14 pool to get an earlier queen. That might be a good trade (if you turn the extra larvae from the earlier queen into drones, you'll make those 100 minerals back), but it's not as clear-cut as you're presenting it. There is a real trade-off.
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On December 04 2010 03:29 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 03:26 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 03:17 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:46 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead. 11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things: 15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals! Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference. Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00. I see what you're trying to say now. The flaw in the logic that I see though is that you're extending the conclusion for the 11 pool 15 hatch modification to the 11 pool 18 hatch. You just prove that the 11 overpool only put you two seconds behind compared to a 13 pool, which has no bearing on if a 15 pool or 18 pool work better. As long as the 2 second difference doesn't have some unforseen consequences that I'm not anticipating, the 11 pool 15 hatch technically should be able to reach pretty much the same economy as the 13 pool version. I would have to test it a few times to make sure I'm not missing something, but it makes sense. I also noticed you made an extra drone before the first queen. That might account for some of the mineral discrepancy. Also, I think you made a mistake somehow with your minerals mined method. I didn't double check yet, but the only difference between my method and yours that I can think of would be the minerals lost in the extractor trick. I simply take the minerals spent and add the minerals I have to get the total minerals "mined". It's not the exact minerals mined because the game includes 700 minerals worth of what you start with, but the difference between the two replays should still be the same either way, 160. I explicitly discarded the results after the hatch goes down, because of poor maynarding and, yes, i got a 15-queen instead of 14-queen. I don't see what people don't like about my method for minerals mined. It does take a little longer to calculate, but it is 100% accurate. There is no possibility for error. 1500 minerals in a new patch. If at time X there are less than 1500 minerals in that patch, then the player must have mined them. By counting this difference, we don't have to worry if someone did or did not build Y overlord or Z drones as they approached the 6:00 mark. This method won't allow a player to game the system to get a small boost. Although, I suppose you would need to subtract 7 (or 6?) from a player if they use the extractor trick since those are minerals which are mined and lost. What you aren't understanding is that building anything at anytime will not change the difference between methods at all. Building an overlord = (minerals spent +100) (minerals owned - 100) Not building an overlord = (minerals spent -100) (minerals owned +100)
My bad, I thought you guys were just counting the minerals in the bank at 6:00. If your method accounts for the value of all units / structures then it would end up being equivalent.
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On December 04 2010 03:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 03:18 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 04 2010 03:08 kcdc wrote:On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
You need to calm down, man. You haven't demonstrated this. You just haven't. If you want to put an end to this, graph drones and minerals mined of an 11 overpool/18 hatch vs a 14 pool/16 hatch from 2:30 to 5:00. I will be surprised if 11 overpool is less than 100 minerals behind at 5:00. No, I am done beating my head against a wall. This will clearly never end. I could waste hours of my life proving with the most meticulous testing and graphing and argumentation, and someone would come out and say "well what about THIS build. Or THAT circumstance. You are behind that!" Just believe whatever you want to believe. I no longer care in the slightest. I just did the tests. People keep arguing with you because you're missing something important. 11 overpool 18 hatch gets drones 12-17 later than 14 pool 16 hatch. That manifests itself in minerals mined. Your tests are good, but they're not showing critical early data. Your earliest data point is 4:30 when the extra drones from the 11 overpool larva injection are already kicking in. If you go back to 2:30, you'll see another story. 11 overpool sacrificies ~100 early minerals compared to a 14 pool to get an earlier queen. That might be a good trade (if you turn the extra larvae from the earlier queen into drones, you'll make those 100 minerals back), but it's not as clear-cut as you're presenting it. There is a real trade-off.
Who has the build order for 14 pool? One that doesn't leave you supply capped before 7:00?
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@ jd
I think I'm going to try a test of the 13 pool with an overlord that doesn't supply block before 7. I don't know what the timing is yet, but i'll figure it out. I think that should bring the 7 minute mark back into line where the 13/15 is still 100 minerals ahead of the 11/18
Also, if you read Obsolescence's comments, he made a really good point. I can probably change to 11/15 with the same results. It only puts the hatch back by two seconds and has a slightly earlier pool. I'm going to try it now.
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Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
Guys, please, just give me a solid build order to follow. That's all I ask.
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On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
lol, well currently I'm trying to address your comment earlier that my being supply blocked might scew the results at 6 minutes.
I failed a test once, which allowed me to figure out the more optimal overlord times for the 13 pool 15 hatch
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +9 ovie
13 pool
15 hatch
14 queen
17 overlord
21 queen (move first queen to second base after inject)
23 overlord
23/24 mayard 3 drones
31 overlord
37 overlord
44 overlord
This should get you to six minutes without any issues. After six minutes isn't really important either because once you reach 52 supply, both bases are saturated to the max, and technically you shouldn't even be producing drones anymore, so extra larva don't affect income anymore.
I'm going to try and get a good replay with the new overlord timing to dispel the idea that the mistimed overlord near the end resulted in 100 extra minerals in my first replay. I still have to pay for the overlord, it was just slow to pop.
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On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
Guys, please, just give me a solid build order to follow. That's all I ask.
Also I'll try the 11 pool idea if I'm up for it later. In theory it makes sense that it shouldn't have any noticeable economy losses since it reaches the state of 1 hatch 1 pool 1 ovie and 14 drones only two seconds behind the 13 pool version. Who knows what random effects the two seconds might have on the econ, but I can't think of any big ones off the top of my head.
Since I don't have any previous data on it yet though, I'm going to hold off until I settle the 13 pool 15 hatch vs 11 pool 18 hatch issue
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On December 04 2010 04:14 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either... lol, well currently I'm trying to address your comment earlier that my being supply blocked might scew the results at 6 minutes. I failed a test once, which allowed me to figure out the more optimal overlord times for the 13 pool 15 hatch Build Order + Show Spoiler +9 ovie
13 pool
15 hatch
14 queen
17 overlord
21 queen (move first queen to second base after inject)
23 overlord
23/24 mayard 3 drones
31 overlord
37 overlord
44 overlord
This should get you to six minutes without any issues. After six minutes isn't really important either because once you reach 52 supply, both bases are saturated to the max, and technically you shouldn't even be producing drones anymore, so extra larva don't affect income anymore. I'm going to try and get a good replay with the new overlord timing to dispel the idea that the mistimed overlord near the end resulted in 100 extra minerals in my first replay. I still have to pay for the overlord, it was just slow to pop.
I am testing to 7 minutes to provide a longer frame to account for drone pops etc. Please provide the last overlord or two...
Also, I want to know if kcdc is content with me testing this build, or if he is gonna demand I do a whole new test for his as well.
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On December 04 2010 04:17 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
Guys, please, just give me a solid build order to follow. That's all I ask. Also I'll try the 11 pool idea if I'm up for it later. In theory it makes sense that it shouldn't have any noticeable economy losses since it reaches the state of 1 hatch 1 pool 1 ovie and 14 drones only two seconds behind the 13 pool version. Who knows what random effects the two seconds might have on the econ, but I can't think of any big ones off the top of my head. Since I don't have any previous data on it yet though, I'm going to hold off until I settle the 13 pool 15 hatch vs 11 pool 18 hatch issue
I can't even understand this... You are getting a hatch at 15? Then you get another two drones and a queen at 16? Won't we be waiting longer to afford the queen and everything else following the hatch?
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On December 04 2010 04:18 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:14 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either... lol, well currently I'm trying to address your comment earlier that my being supply blocked might scew the results at 6 minutes. I failed a test once, which allowed me to figure out the more optimal overlord times for the 13 pool 15 hatch Build Order + Show Spoiler +9 ovie
13 pool
15 hatch
14 queen
17 overlord
21 queen (move first queen to second base after inject)
23 overlord
23/24 mayard 3 drones
31 overlord
37 overlord
44 overlord
This should get you to six minutes without any issues. After six minutes isn't really important either because once you reach 52 supply, both bases are saturated to the max, and technically you shouldn't even be producing drones anymore, so extra larva don't affect income anymore. I'm going to try and get a good replay with the new overlord timing to dispel the idea that the mistimed overlord near the end resulted in 100 extra minerals in my first replay. I still have to pay for the overlord, it was just slow to pop. I am testing to 7 minutes to provide a longer frame to account for drone pops etc. Please provide the last overlord or two... Also, I want to know if kcdc is content with me testing this build, or if he is gonna demand I do a whole new test for his as well.
He might demand a test. I'm perfectly willing to test mine. You really don't need to. The only time I care if you test mine also is if you're trying to say my results were off for some reason. If you don't mind I'll test the 13 pool 15 hatch to 7. I can give you the replay after. Then you're free to test 14 hatch 16 pool if kcdc demands it 
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On December 04 2010 04:21 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 04:17 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 04:02 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Can't wait for everyone to agree on what's actually being tested here...
It's quite an assumption to think we can switch to 11Pool/15Hatch with no resulting loss in economy. Can't wait to hear the results for this one either...
Guys, please, just give me a solid build order to follow. That's all I ask. Also I'll try the 11 pool idea if I'm up for it later. In theory it makes sense that it shouldn't have any noticeable economy losses since it reaches the state of 1 hatch 1 pool 1 ovie and 14 drones only two seconds behind the 13 pool version. Who knows what random effects the two seconds might have on the econ, but I can't think of any big ones off the top of my head. Since I don't have any previous data on it yet though, I'm going to hold off until I settle the 13 pool 15 hatch vs 11 pool 18 hatch issue I can't even understand this... You are getting a hatch at 15? Then you get another two drones and a queen at 16? Won't we be waiting longer to afford the queen and everything else following the hatch?
No, when I test it I would get the queen at 14 just like the 13 hatch version. The only difference is in how I get the early pool. Everything after the hatch would be the same. Supposedly I hear that getting to the hatch through the overpool method only delays the whole process by two seconds. I'm not going to test this idea until later though. It's not as important as hashing out the difference between hatch at 15 or hatch at 18
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I play a lot of multiplayer games and after being cheesed so much by Zerg or random Zerg players I've had to resort to the 10 pool speedling build for the last week or so, but I have to say after trying this build out I was amazed at the flexibility and just ease of transition into whatever the situation calls for.
Yes, you still need to scout those randoms who can only 6 pool but at least you're much better prepared. So if they do fast expand you've shown that this build doesn't put you behind. I like that! Thanks for your replays and timings to prove the validity of another great build.
Wish I didn't have to wade through pages of angry posts...., but I've tried it and I like it.
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If you're going to test the early game econs, please do a 14 pool. You can do a 13 too if you want, but 14 is more standard.
As for a BO, I do queen at completion of pool and OL after queen. I believe you sit at 18/18 for a bit while waiting on you OL, but you don't get to 3 larvae, so none are wasted. If I'm wrong and it does get to 3 larvae, just do an extractor trick to use a larva before it hits 3.
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On December 03 2010 23:48 GobIin wrote:
I wouldnt call that standard and all, and why extractor, 9 ovie is better
Just read the complete thread.
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Am I the only one enjoying the drama?
Oh and please make a new thread or something when you guys finally have a build order done for me? Thx
edit: Sorry bad attempt of being funny. But cant all this discussion be put into the Evolution Chamber, utilizing the way-points to actually prove something?
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EPT
