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On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171049.jpg) Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead.
11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things:
15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals!
Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference.
Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00.
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On December 04 2010 02:15 nehl wrote:
i dont think you can play this vs all races. vs an all in ling att, the fe will die, most likely the main as well. but vs t and p it seems solid. im suprised the 11pool is econ wise effective though. ill check it out...
God, I can't understand how people come up with this stuff. How can you possibly, possibly come to the conclusion that this will die to ling all ins? How? This build gets an 11 pool and more larva than ANY OTHER BUILD. I provided TWO replays of me CRUSHING zergs with ling all ins.
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices larva or minerals or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
Note: when I began producing lings, we both had exactly 17 drones. I wasn't behind a drone, or half a drone, or whatever...
Note: I didn't catch up in drones due to a queen, I was caught up before I started my first inject!
Note: At every point from 1:30 until 4:30 when I began making lings, I was AHEAD in minerals mined!
Do you get it? Hello? I am AHEAD IN DRONES by 15 supply. 15 Supply. I am ahead in drones at 11 supply too. Where am I behind? Please, either provide evidence or quit lying on my thread.
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On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:15 nehl wrote:
i dont think you can play this vs all races. vs an all in ling att, the fe will die, most likely the main as well. but vs t and p it seems solid. im suprised the 11pool is econ wise effective though. ill check it out... God, I can't understand what is wrong with people here. How can you possibly, possibly come to the conclusion that this will die to ling all ins? How? HOW? This build gets an 11 pool and more larva than ANY OTHER BUILD. I provided TWO replays of me CRUSHING zergs with ling all ins. WTF? And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you. Note: when I began producing lings, we both had exactly 17 drones. I wasn't behind a drone, or half a drone, or whatever... Note: I didn't catch up in drones due to a queen, I was caught up before I started my first inject! Note: At every point from 1:30 until 4:30 when I began making lings, I was AHEAD in minerals mined! Do you get it? Hello? I am AHEAD IN DRONES by 15 supply. 15 Supply. I am ahead in drones at 11 supply too. Where am I behind? Please, either prove evidence or quit lying on my thread! God I'm gonna tear my hair out here...
DNFTT...
I think I remember you saying that less than 2 pages ago :-p
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On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:15 nehl wrote:
i dont think you can play this vs all races. vs an all in ling att, the fe will die, most likely the main as well. but vs t and p it seems solid. im suprised the 11pool is econ wise effective though. ill check it out... God, I can't understand what is wrong with people here. How can you possibly, possibly come to the conclusion that this will die to ling all ins? How? HOW? This build gets an 11 pool and more larva than ANY OTHER BUILD. I provided TWO replays of me CRUSHING zergs with ling all ins. WTF? And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you. Note: when I began producing lings, we both had exactly 17 drones. I wasn't behind a drone, or half a drone, or whatever... Note: I didn't catch up in drones due to a queen, I was caught up before I started my first inject! Note: At every point from 1:30 until 4:30 when I began making lings, I was AHEAD in minerals mined! Do you get it? Hello? I am AHEAD IN DRONES by 15 supply. 15 Supply. I am ahead in drones at 11 supply too. Where am I behind? Please, either prove evidence or quit lying on my thread! God I'm gonna tear my hair out here...
lol, at least I'm not claiming that. If you'll die to a ling all in with an 11 pool build then there isn't much else you can do as zerg.
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jacobman, I tested your build. Honestly, the build doesn't make much sense. You get an overlord at 43/44 supply, leaving you supply capped for quite some time after a larvae pop. Is this a mistake? It could explain why you are showing a short-run increase in your mining. Anyway, here are my results:
5:00
13Pool : 3150 + 275 = 3425
11Pool : 3350 + 70 = 3420
6:00
13Pool : 4150 + 490 = 4640
11Pool : 4150 + 430 = 4539
7:00
13Pool : 5150 + 975 = 6125
11Pool : 5000 + 1124 = 6124
The reason you are showing higher results for the 6 minute mark is because you are delaying the overlord before the 6:00 mark. The results after that are pretty equal, except in drone count which the 11pool leads.
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On December 04 2010 02:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, I tested your build. Honestly, the build doesn't make much sense. You get an overlord at 43/44 supply, leaving you supply capped for quite some time after a larvae pop. Is this a mistake? It could explain why you are showing a short-run increase in your mining. Anyway, here are my results:
5:00
13Pool : 3150 + 275 = 3425
11Pool : 3350 + 70 = 3420
6:00
13Pool : 4150 + 490 = 4640
11Pool : 4150 + 430 = 4539
7:00
13Pool : 5150 + 975 = 6125
11Pool : 5000 + 1124 = 6124
The reason you are showing higher results for the 6 minute mark is because you are delaying the overlord before the 6:00 mark. The results after that are pretty equal, except in drone count which the 11pool leads.
If you sum the minerals left in all the patches and subtract that sum from 24,000 then you will get a true value for minerals mined (it wont matter what anyone built / didn't build).
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On December 04 2010 02:48 Obsolescence wrote:
DNFTT...
I think I remember you saying that less than 2 pages ago :-p
Yes, you are right. For every one that leaves another shows up. And there are so many people who will read those posts and think to themselves "huh, that makes sense."
I obviously can't help people having trouble understanding these things. I will stop trying.
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On December 04 2010 02:59 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, I tested your build. Honestly, the build doesn't make much sense. You get an overlord at 43/44 supply, leaving you supply capped for quite some time after a larvae pop. Is this a mistake? It could explain why you are showing a short-run increase in your mining. Anyway, here are my results:
5:00
13Pool : 3150 + 275 = 3425
11Pool : 3350 + 70 = 3420
6:00
13Pool : 4150 + 490 = 4640
11Pool : 4150 + 430 = 4539
7:00
13Pool : 5150 + 975 = 6125
11Pool : 5000 + 1124 = 6124
The reason you are showing higher results for the 6 minute mark is because you are delaying the overlord before the 6:00 mark. The results after that are pretty equal, except in drone count which the 11pool leads. If you sum the minerals left in all the patches and subtract that sum from 24,000 then you will get a true value for minerals mined (it wont matter what anyone built / didn't build).
This provides the exact same result + 700 minerals. It makes no difference comparatively.
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On December 04 2010 03:01 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:48 Obsolescence wrote:
DNFTT...
I think I remember you saying that less than 2 pages ago :-p Yes, you are right. For every one that leaves another shows up. And there are so many people who will read those posts and think to themselves "huh, that makes sense." I obviously can't help people having trouble understanding these things. I will stop trying.
Did you happen to notice this post or the replay in the nested quotes? I'm curious about your opinion.
Post
New builds always bring out the trolls. I'm happy to see jacob actually provides new data rather than just theory-babbling.
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It seems like this is a toss-up with hatch-pool to parry the 2rax as we've seen in the gsl and it comes down to wanting more slow lings and having the wherewithal the pull drones and surround when needed (hatch first) or get faster speed lings out and deal with it that way (gas pool then expand).
As a protoss, I can't remember the last time I saw a zerg go hatch first even if they scout 14gate + gas at close air positions, though I can't say for sure that they were all 11 pools.
I can't really say much about zvz as I haven't watched many and obviously don't have any knowledge through experience
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On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
You need to calm down, man. You haven't demonstrated this. You just haven't.
If you want to put an end to this, graph drones and minerals mined of an 11 overpool/18 hatch vs a 14 pool/16 hatch from 2:30 to 5:00. I will be surprised if 11 overpool is less than 100 minerals behind at 5:00.
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I wanted to try this build out before commenting in the thread, and I just had a pretty great game with it on Jungle Basin against a Protoss. The early pool delayed his tech without me even needing to build zerglings since he went for a forge before gateway to try and defend against what he expected to be an all in. I really felt ahead the whole time with a really strong economy and great map control (this build sets you up for a strong mutalisk mid-game) allowing me to keep an expansion or two ahead the entire match.
I need to try it more before saying it's definitely my go-to build order, but between your replays and the success I've had so far, I think this is going to be a very strong opening.
I really can't emphasize enough how important the early pool is. It's deceptive enough to start a defensive reaction, and if you can get rid of the scout before throwing down your hatchery then you're golden. Major thanks for posting/optimizing this build!
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On December 04 2010 03:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:59 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 02:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, I tested your build. Honestly, the build doesn't make much sense. You get an overlord at 43/44 supply, leaving you supply capped for quite some time after a larvae pop. Is this a mistake? It could explain why you are showing a short-run increase in your mining. Anyway, here are my results:
5:00
13Pool : 3150 + 275 = 3425
11Pool : 3350 + 70 = 3420
6:00
13Pool : 4150 + 490 = 4640
11Pool : 4150 + 430 = 4539
7:00
13Pool : 5150 + 975 = 6125
11Pool : 5000 + 1124 = 6124
The reason you are showing higher results for the 6 minute mark is because you are delaying the overlord before the 6:00 mark. The results after that are pretty equal, except in drone count which the 11pool leads. If you sum the minerals left in all the patches and subtract that sum from 24,000 then you will get a true value for minerals mined (it wont matter what anyone built / didn't build). This provides the exact same result + 700 minerals. It makes no difference comparatively.
If you just count the resources at 6:00 then you are neglecting the possibility that a player skipped an ovie, or is in the process of building something, etc. The minerals can't deceive you. If a patch says 1256, then 244 minerals have been mined by drones at some point in time. I thought you were all about accuracy :-p this is the most accurate method and has 0 possibility for error (which is increasingly important as the mineral difference in your comparisons approaches 0).
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Thanks OP, I'm loving this build... Was using it last night in some 3v3s, it's pretty strong. Lings come out so fast! It is indeed very versatile. I really like it!
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On December 04 2010 02:46 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead. 11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things: 15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals! Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference. Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00.
I see what you're trying to say now. The flaw in the logic that I see though is that you're extending the conclusion for the 11 pool 15 hatch modification to the 11 pool 18 hatch. You just prove that the 11 overpool only put you two seconds behind compared to a 13 pool, which has no bearing on if a 15 hatch or 18 hatch work better. As long as the 2 second difference doesn't have some unforseen consequences that I'm not anticipating, the 11 pool 15 hatch technically should be able to reach pretty much the same economy as the 13 pool version. I would have to test it a few times to make sure I'm not missing something, but it makes sense.
I also noticed you made an extra drone before the first queen. That might account for some of the mineral discrepancy. Also, I think you made a mistake somehow with your minerals mined method. I didn't double check yet, but the only difference between my method and yours that I can think of would be the minerals lost in the extractor trick. I simply take the minerals spent and add the minerals I have to get the total minerals "mined". It's not the exact minerals mined because the game includes 700 minerals worth of what you start with, but the difference between the two replays should still be the same either way, 160.
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On December 04 2010 03:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:46 jdseemoreglass wrote:
And people, STOP claiming this build is behind or sacrifices or anything else early on, because I have demonstrated this to be false. Can you not read the OP? Here, let me help you.
You need to calm down, man. You haven't demonstrated this. You just haven't. If you want to put an end to this, graph drones and minerals mined of an 11 overpool/18 hatch vs a 14 pool/16 hatch from 2:30 to 5:00. I will be surprised if 11 overpool is less than 100 minerals behind at 5:00.
No, I am done beating my head against a wall. This will clearly never end. I could waste hours of my life proving with the most meticulous testing and graphing and argumentation, and someone would come out and say "well what about THIS build. Or THAT circumstance. You are behind that!"
Just believe whatever you want to believe. I no longer care in the slightest.
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On December 04 2010 03:17 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 02:46 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead. 11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things: 15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals! Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference. Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00. I see what you're trying to say now. The flaw in the logic that I see though is that you're extending the conclusion for the 11 pool 15 hatch modification to the 11 pool 18 hatch. You just prove that the 11 overpool only put you two seconds behind compared to a 13 pool, which has no bearing on if a 15 pool or 18 pool work better. As long as the 2 second difference doesn't have some unforseen consequences that I'm not anticipating, the 11 pool 15 hatch technically should be able to reach pretty much the same economy as the 13 pool version. I would have to test it a few times to make sure I'm not missing something, but it makes sense. I also noticed you made an extra drone before the first queen. That might account for some of the mineral discrepancy. Also, I think you made a mistake somehow with your minerals mined method. I didn't double check yet, but the only difference between my method and yours that I can think of would be the minerals lost in the extractor trick. I simply take the minerals spent and add the minerals I have to get the total minerals "mined". It's not the exact minerals mined because the game includes 700 minerals worth of what you start with, but the difference between the two replays should still be the same either way, 160.
I explicitly discarded the results after the hatch goes down, because of poor maynarding and, yes, i got a 15-queen instead of 14-queen.
I don't see what people don't like about my method for minerals mined. It does take a little longer to calculate, but it is 100% accurate. There is no possibility for error.
1500 minerals in a new patch. If at time X there are less than 1500 minerals in that patch, then the player must have mined them. By counting this difference, we don't have to worry if someone did or did not build Y overlord or Z drones as they approached the 6:00 mark. This method won't allow a player to game the system to get a small boost. Although, I suppose you would need to subtract 7 (or 6?) from a player if they use the extractor trick since those are minerals which are mined and lost.
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On December 04 2010 02:52 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, I tested your build. Honestly, the build doesn't make much sense. You get an overlord at 43/44 supply, leaving you supply capped for quite some time after a larvae pop. Is this a mistake? It could explain why you are showing a short-run increase in your mining. Anyway, here are my results:
5:00
13Pool : 3150 + 275 = 3425
11Pool : 3350 + 70 = 3420
6:00
13Pool : 4150 + 490 = 4640
11Pool : 4150 + 430 = 4539
7:00
13Pool : 5150 + 975 = 6125
11Pool : 5000 + 1124 = 6124
The reason you are showing higher results for the 6 minute mark is because you are delaying the overlord before the 6:00 mark. The results after that are pretty equal, except in drone count which the 11pool leads.
That's a valid point. I'll definitely test out changing the overlord time to be optimal. I think I mentioned that I wasn't sure if that overlord time was exactly right or not. I really doubt that it can make 100 minerals of difference though. I still have the same number of overlords bought and drones out on the field at that point. I'll test it because I'm not sure what the effect would be, but my gut feeling tells me that it's not 100 minerals worth.
I'll also have to take a look at the 7 minute mark to like you said. It seems odd that the 11 pool would catch up during that time since we pretty much reach full saturation at 6:00 ish. The reason it catches up at seven might actually be because of the supply block you mentioned though. While I doubt that it makes much of a difference at 6:00 not being able to make the drones at 52 might affect the 7:00 mark a lot.
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On December 04 2010 03:26 Obsolescence wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 03:17 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:46 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 02:35 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 02:14 Obsolescence wrote:On December 04 2010 01:16 jacobman wrote:On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend. It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile. I just tested your 13/15 replay against an adaptation of the 11/18 (11/15). I figured that your build was ahead by ~100 minerals because you got your hatch at 15, before queen. Using this build (adapted from 11/18) 10 - extractor trick 11 - ovie 11 - pool 15 - hatch 15 - queen 17 - ovie I use the 11-overpool, but go for hatch at 15 in order to mimic your build. Since both builds converge on a 15-hatch, the period following it is irrelevant (assuming all else equal). On my first try, spawning south Xel'Naga, here were my results: 11/15 Pool: 1:32 Hatch: 2:39 13/15 (from Jacob's replay) Pool: 1:46 Hatch: 2:37 The 11 pool comes out 14 seconds faster, and the hatch being delayed by 2 seconds was simply the difference in 1 drone mining wave (you can check the replays yourself). So the 11-overpool, regardless of getting a hatch at 15, or 18, is at worst equivalent in economy but with an earlier pool. Please, let me know if you see some glaring flaw in my logic. Also, if you go to 6:00 min mark, you'll find I'm behind by 95 minerals. However, if you take a look at my maynarding of workers, I think you'll see why I don't think this is a reasonable sample to draw any conclusion from. Since this build and the 13/15 converge on a 15-hatch, I don't think further comparison is necessary since the difference could only be less than a hatch larva cycle (one build or the other rebuilds their 15th drone <15 seconds early). Okay, I looked at the replay. Interesting idea to kind of combine the two. I'm a little bit confused by what you're trying to say though. I'm not sure about your logic on how you got to an 11-overpool with a hatch at 15 or 18 is at worst equivalent in economy. I don't see how that follows from anything posted. I do however agree that the replay isn't quite a reasonable sample to draw conclusions from. You definitely didn't have a good maynard, but this replay only reached 4469 at the 6:00 mark. This is a 160 mineral difference compared to the 13 pool I did, which mined 4630 by that time. I'm not sure if that whole difference can be accounted for by the maynarding. It seems unlikely, and unless I'm missing something It defintely still leaves the possibility that the 13 pool is 100 minerals ahead. 11/15 and 13/15 are great for comparing the economy of the builds because both require these things: 15 drones, 2 overlords, 1 spawning pool, and 1 hatchery EDIT: And 300 minerals! Because the end goal is identical, we can compare their economies based on how quickly they can accomplish that goal. Therefore, if 11/15 gets a pool faster and a hatch at the same time as a 13/15, while matching the 13/15 in every other respect, then we can, as I did, conclude that the 13/15 should not be significantly worse or better following the production of the 15-hatch. The point is that, sure, 13/15 might get +100 minerals at 6:00 because you were able to mine from your second base sooner, but when both builds get their hatch at the same time, there will be no difference. Also, just counting the final minerals is not a good approach to comparing minerals mined. Instead of that method, I recorded the remaining minerals for each of the 16 patches and compared their sum to the initial value (1500 per patch X 16 patches). If you use this method you will find that I am 95 minerals behind at 6:00. I see what you're trying to say now. The flaw in the logic that I see though is that you're extending the conclusion for the 11 pool 15 hatch modification to the 11 pool 18 hatch. You just prove that the 11 overpool only put you two seconds behind compared to a 13 pool, which has no bearing on if a 15 pool or 18 pool work better. As long as the 2 second difference doesn't have some unforseen consequences that I'm not anticipating, the 11 pool 15 hatch technically should be able to reach pretty much the same economy as the 13 pool version. I would have to test it a few times to make sure I'm not missing something, but it makes sense. I also noticed you made an extra drone before the first queen. That might account for some of the mineral discrepancy. Also, I think you made a mistake somehow with your minerals mined method. I didn't double check yet, but the only difference between my method and yours that I can think of would be the minerals lost in the extractor trick. I simply take the minerals spent and add the minerals I have to get the total minerals "mined". It's not the exact minerals mined because the game includes 700 minerals worth of what you start with, but the difference between the two replays should still be the same either way, 160. I explicitly discarded the results after the hatch goes down, because of poor maynarding and, yes, i got a 15-queen instead of 14-queen. I don't see what people don't like about my method for minerals mined. It does take a little longer to calculate, but it is 100% accurate. There is no possibility for error. 1500 minerals in a new patch. If at time X there are less than 1500 minerals in that patch, then the player must have mined them. By counting this difference, we don't have to worry if someone did or did not build Y overlord or Z drones as they approached the 6:00 mark. This method won't allow a player to game the system to get a small boost. Although, I suppose you would need to subtract 7 (or 6?) from a player if they use the extractor trick since those are minerals which are mined and lost.
What you aren't understanding is that building anything at anytime will not change the difference between methods at all.
Building an overlord = (minerals spent +100) (minerals owned - 100)
Not building an overlord = (minerals spent -100) (minerals owned +100)
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Ran a quick test. With a scout at about the same time, 11 overpool is about 100 minerals mined behind 14 pool at 4:40 game time. Larvae injection pops earlier for 11 overpool. If you want more early minerals and your hatch to finish earlier, go with 14 pool. If you want more larvae (could be drones, could be units), go with 11 overpool.
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EPT
