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On December 03 2010 23:44 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 23:30 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Guys, please just open the replay, press the "I" button, and take a look. You've always been told early pool must delay drones, why not just take a look to see? From my experience watching these, I am ahead at 11 to 10 for a short bit, and then quickly catch-up and even surpass most of the time at 14 drones. Take a look at the replays and note I am often ahead in drones by 15+ supply.
It is simply a misconception that this build delays drones. For a few seconds, it does, but then quickly surpasses in drones. To be honest, it takes a hell of a lot more drone delay to put down a hatch at 15 supply than to put it down at 18 when you naturally have more minerals and can delay the less critical overlord.
It is a misconception that this build catches up due to earlier queen. It catches up before the queen even finishes. Take a look, I am not making this up.
jd, until I see a new replay that you say does better with minerals, nothing you say about this build holds any weight with me. A simple 13 pool 15 hatch beats the replay of this build you posted on the original thread it came from while only delaying the pool by 13 seconds. Also, every hatch first build I tested beat this build by at least 100 minerals. I posted replays for all of this for anyone to check earlier in this thread. This build just sets you back economically. The only reason people like it is because they feel comfy and safe having the pool sitting around doing nothing really early.
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add.
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I wouldnt call that standard and all, and why extractor, 9 ovie is better
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On December 03 2010 23:45 Roban wrote:
For everyone who says the OP must be wrong because you delay drones:
Keep in mind that you also get the 9th, 10th and 11th drone FASTER.
So by your logic this build must be economically ahead of 15h14p builds that delay those very drones.
I say the OP is wrong because I've done extensive testing of build orders since his original post and I've posted replays showing he is wrong. People are either in serious denial or just want to ignore the data that shows the build is economically behind and isn't even the best pool first build. No one has yet to prove me wrong with their own replay.
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On December 03 2010 23:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add.
Because that's a dumb test. First of all, I'm not the quickest player, and it took me many tries to get the 11 pool and 13 pool builds I did to be practically perfect. Second of all it's not needed. You don't need to be in the same game to compare builds economically, how we were before. I already spent a ton of time testing builds. It's your turn to give me a replay that shows the build can even beat the 13 pool 15 hatch build that I posted economically.
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On December 03 2010 23:52 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 23:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add. Because that's a dumb test. First of all, I'm not the quickest player, and it took me many tries to get the 11 pool and 16 pool builds I did to be practically perfect. Second of all it's not needed. You don't need to be in the same game to compare builds economically, how we were before. I already spent a ton of time testing builds. It's your turn to give me a replay that shows the build can even beat the 13 pool 15 hatch build that I posted economically.
Take a look at the last replay. It opens 11pool to 13 pool, with two diamond players who have 200+ APM at the start. There is perfect evidence right there.
I've got about 9 replays posted, and an entire thread where this issue was discussed in length. The simplest way to test this is to put it side-by-side... I'm not gonna have a replay war with you when I just offered to test it. I have confidence in my build, and to say your timing is slow is a cop out. We can put the speed setting on slowest if that makes you more comfortable. Otherwise please just put this to rest.
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On December 03 2010 23:48 GobIin wrote:
I wouldnt call that standard and all, and why extractor, 9 ovie is better
Have you read any of the two threads at all? -_-
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On December 03 2010 23:48 GobIin wrote:
I wouldnt call that standard and all, and why extractor, 9 ovie is better
WoW
this comes close to the ignorance in the jca thread..
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I don't see why people are so quick to shut down a build because no pros do it. To get a " true test" it would have to be done in 100s of games in different scenarios. The best part is an earlier pool. The few extra minerals aren't gonna help if you can't survive or you do survive but are extremely crippled in the process. So I say good job to the OP for providing a thought out post and replays. People hardly like to point out the positives and quick to make up negatives.
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On December 03 2010 23:57 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 23:52 jacobman wrote:On December 03 2010 23:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add. Because that's a dumb test. First of all, I'm not the quickest player, and it took me many tries to get the 11 pool and 16 pool builds I did to be practically perfect. Second of all it's not needed. You don't need to be in the same game to compare builds economically, how we were before. I already spent a ton of time testing builds. It's your turn to give me a replay that shows the build can even beat the 13 pool 15 hatch build that I posted economically. I've got about 9 replays posted, and an entire thread where this issue was discussed in length. The simplest way to test this is to put it side-by-side... I'm not gonna have a replay war with you when I just offered to test it. I have confidence in my build, and to say your timing is slow is a cop out. We can put the speed setting on slowest if that makes you more comfortable. Otherwise please just put this to rest.
If you're referring the games you played on ladder those hardly can be compared to anything, and likely fall way behind the single replay that I've seen posted where you don't have to worry about what your opponent is doing. If there were other replays of your build where you were testing it economically and did better than the main one you have posted in your original thread, then link me to them because I haven't seen them.
Saying that I'm slow is not a cop out. When I was testing the builds I always tested them in slow and there were so many times where I accidentally made an extra drone or forgot an overlord or forgot to larva inject. Every time that happens you have to restart, which takes for freaking ever since you're playing it in the slowest mode possible. Not to mention that I'm not sure that the mineral lines on any particular level are completely even. I do know that there are significant differences in mining rates between levels, but I never tested different locations on the same map.
My point is that doing slow games with you until we both get our builds perfect at the same time is making me spend tons of extra time I don't need to. I've already done all of that. You saying to just drop it because I don't want to invest the time it takes to run however many slow games it takes to get a good replay is just you wanting to deny that your build isn't even as good as the 13 pool I posted. Instead of trying to waste my time and saying I should drop it when I don't want to, you should just produce your own replay that actually comes out ahead of mine economically. I doubt you even watched any of the replays I posted anyways. Perhaps you should start there.
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On December 04 2010 00:15 jacobman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 23:57 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 03 2010 23:52 jacobman wrote:On December 03 2010 23:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add. Because that's a dumb test. First of all, I'm not the quickest player, and it took me many tries to get the 11 pool and 16 pool builds I did to be practically perfect. Second of all it's not needed. You don't need to be in the same game to compare builds economically, how we were before. I already spent a ton of time testing builds. It's your turn to give me a replay that shows the build can even beat the 13 pool 15 hatch build that I posted economically. I've got about 9 replays posted, and an entire thread where this issue was discussed in length. The simplest way to test this is to put it side-by-side... I'm not gonna have a replay war with you when I just offered to test it. I have confidence in my build, and to say your timing is slow is a cop out. We can put the speed setting on slowest if that makes you more comfortable. Otherwise please just put this to rest. If you're referring the games you played on ladder those hardly can be compared to anything, and likely fall way behind the single replay that I've seen posted where you don't have to worry about what your opponent is doing. If there were other replays of your build where you were testing it economically and did better than the main one you have posted in your original thread, then link me to them because I haven't seen them. Saying that I'm slow is not a cop out. When I was testing the builds I always tested them in slow and there were so many times where I accidentally made an extra drone or forgot an overlord or forgot to larva inject. Every time that happens you have to restart, which takes for freaking ever since you're playing it in the slowest mode possible. Not to mention that I'm not sure that the mineral lines on any particular level are completely even. I do know that there are significant differences in mining rates between levels, but I never tested different locations on the same map. My point is that doing slow games with you until we both get our builds perfect at the same time is making me spend tons of extra time I don't need to. I've already done all of that. You saying to just drop it because I don't want to invest the time it takes to run however many slow games it takes to get a good replay is just you wanting to deny that your build isn't even as good as the 13 pool I posted. Instead of trying to waste my time and saying I should drop it when I don't want to, you should just produce your own replay that actually comes out ahead of mine economically. I doubt you even watched any of the replays I posted anyways. Perhaps you should start there.
The way I see it, the burden of proof is on you Jacob.
Jdsee has already brought forth a mound of evidence to back up his claims - evidence you're attempting to refute with anecdotal stories and a single replay.
Jd has already offered to test your hypothesis with you, and instead of taking him up on the offer you spend two paragraphs worming your way out of it.
If you have confidence that you are right, but refuse to demonstrate on demand, then it's your responsibility to pick through the replay, record, and post the numbers for comparison.
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But to perfect a build it takes TIME. You have test it more than 10 games and with an opponent doing nothing that's the best way to get an accurate result. Also ladder games are a good way to test a build because it's unpredictable. A custom game can be predicted and tournament game a player will wanna play safer to not drop out the tourney.
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On December 04 2010 00:32 Ryhn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 00:15 jacobman wrote:On December 03 2010 23:57 jdseemoreglass wrote:On December 03 2010 23:52 jacobman wrote:On December 03 2010 23:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:
jacobman, if you really believe this to be true, then let's play a game to test. You go whatever build you want, and I will go 11 overpool, and we can compare data side-by-side in a replay for all to see.
encRoach 415 to add. Because that's a dumb test. First of all, I'm not the quickest player, and it took me many tries to get the 11 pool and 16 pool builds I did to be practically perfect. Second of all it's not needed. You don't need to be in the same game to compare builds economically, how we were before. I already spent a ton of time testing builds. It's your turn to give me a replay that shows the build can even beat the 13 pool 15 hatch build that I posted economically. I've got about 9 replays posted, and an entire thread where this issue was discussed in length. The simplest way to test this is to put it side-by-side... I'm not gonna have a replay war with you when I just offered to test it. I have confidence in my build, and to say your timing is slow is a cop out. We can put the speed setting on slowest if that makes you more comfortable. Otherwise please just put this to rest. If you're referring the games you played on ladder those hardly can be compared to anything, and likely fall way behind the single replay that I've seen posted where you don't have to worry about what your opponent is doing. If there were other replays of your build where you were testing it economically and did better than the main one you have posted in your original thread, then link me to them because I haven't seen them. Saying that I'm slow is not a cop out. When I was testing the builds I always tested them in slow and there were so many times where I accidentally made an extra drone or forgot an overlord or forgot to larva inject. Every time that happens you have to restart, which takes for freaking ever since you're playing it in the slowest mode possible. Not to mention that I'm not sure that the mineral lines on any particular level are completely even. I do know that there are significant differences in mining rates between levels, but I never tested different locations on the same map. My point is that doing slow games with you until we both get our builds perfect at the same time is making me spend tons of extra time I don't need to. I've already done all of that. You saying to just drop it because I don't want to invest the time it takes to run however many slow games it takes to get a good replay is just you wanting to deny that your build isn't even as good as the 13 pool I posted. Instead of trying to waste my time and saying I should drop it when I don't want to, you should just produce your own replay that actually comes out ahead of mine economically. I doubt you even watched any of the replays I posted anyways. Perhaps you should start there. The way I see it, the burden of proof is on you Jacob. Jdsee has already brought forth a mound of evidence to back up his claims - evidence you're attempting to refute with anecdotal stories and a single replay. Jd has already offered to test your hypothesis with you, and instead of taking him up on the offer you spend two paragraphs worming your way out of it. If you have confidence that you are right, but refuse to demonstrate on demand, then it's your responsibility to pick through the replay, record, and post the numbers for comparison.
Jd has offered some evidence. There is no mound to be found. He's only put up one replay of his that's not in a game. I can take a look at his ladder games too, but I find it really hard to believe that his ladder games are going to outdo the replay where he was only focusing on economy and playing it on the slowest speed possible.
Also, I'm not refuting with with anecdotal stories of a single replay. I posted the replay, his replay, and a replay of me doing his build, all which show him behind. I've already spent a ton of time testing this and at this point the burden is on jd to at least take a look at the replay and then see if he can produce a replay that beats mine.
here's a repost since any posts on a previous page are obviously anecdotal to you.
So when I saw the post where this build originated from I decided to do a bunch of leg work and test things for myself. I took data at the beginning of the second of the 6:00 mark. It's very important that it's consistantly at the beginning of the second. Note that the amount for the 11 pool is taken from the only replay that the OP provided in the post where the build originated. He has a table that claims 4620, but I believe that he got that number by taking data at the end of the second. Unless I see a replay otherwise I have to believe 2530 is the correct number at the beginning of the second since I have gotten about that every time I have done the build. Here are the results for different build orders. + Show Spoiler +11P/18H + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4539
Pool Placed: 1:33
Hatch Placed: 3:00
16H/15P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4780
Pool Placed: 2:35
Hatch Placed: 2:15
14H/13P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4685
Pool Placed: 2:26
Hatch Placed: 2:05
14H/14P + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4670
Pool Placed: 2:32
Hatch Placed: 2:05
15H/14P + Show Spoiler +NOTE: I messed up slightly on this one, but the numbers are still better than 11 pool so it's relevant
Mineral Mined: 4665
Pool Placed: 2:30
Hatch Placed: 2:11
13P/15H + Show Spoiler +Mineral Mined: 4630
Pool Placed: 1:46
Hatch Placed: 2:38
For anyone that thinks an 11 pool doesn't affect your economy, just take note that pretty much every hatch first build under the sun performs better by at least 100 minerals, which is not that small. Also, note that a 13P/15H also performs better. I don't know how many other builds perform better than the 11 pool, but I thought that that was relevant because the pool time on that build was only 13 seconds slower than the 11 pool build, and the hatch was quicker than the 11 pool. Here are all the replays mentioned for you to double check things and get a more precise idea of the build orders. I also included the replay that the OP gave in his post about the 11 pool build order for convenience. Some of the replays of the hatch first builds I just winged the overlord timings, so don't follow those too closely. The only ones with planned overlord timings are the 16 Hatch 15 Pool and the 11 Pool 18 Hatch replays. + Show Spoiler +
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On December 04 2010 00:35 raf3776 wrote:
But to perfect a build it takes TIME. You have test it more than 10 games and with an opponent doing nothing that's the best way to get an accurate result. Also ladder games are a good way to test a build because it's unpredictable. A custom game can be predicted and tournament game a player will wanna play safer to not drop out the tourney.
I agree it's a good way to test a build as far as finding the weaknesses and strengths of the build. I'm just saying that it won't do much in our economy argument. The replays he and I did earlier were focused entirely on getting economy so that you could figure out which build had the better economic potential. I'm just saying that I have a 13 pool 15 hatch build that performs better and only delays the pool by 13 seconds. Not a single replay that I remember seeing needed that extra 13 seconds.
PS I already put in tons of time to get the replays I posted earlier, which is why I don't feel like doing that again to get a replay with him right now. Perhaps another day, but I'm worn out with BO testing right now.
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So I've tried reading through this thread, but it's painful. I had three major questions/concerns when looking at this build...
1. When does the 2nd queen come out in comparison to a more standard pool first and a hatch first build? (answered below me, thanks!)
2. Do you have enough larvae to spare early vomits for creep tumors to get creep spreading early?
3. How is it for getting the expo down at 18? It seems like if this build ever became popular players would begin to keep the scouting drone around to block for the expansion at 18 with a pylon or engy bay. I suppose you can get lings out in time to tear it down though. With 14 hatch on 4 player maps you have a pretty good shot at getting the expo free and clear.
It seems interesting, I'm going to give it a try and see how it feels. I wouldn't use it on a 4 player map, or even a larger map (I'd rather hatch first I think), but it seems like it might be good for smaller maps or maps where you can't grab an early 3rd like Jungle. I think PvZ on jungle this could be really nice because if the Protoss goes for a 14 Nexus you're in position to pressure rather than running into the problem of being 2 bases vs 2 bases without a good 3rd to take.
EDIT: You could have also have probably avoided some of the trolling with a more modest title and a more humble tone to the post :/. When you claim something is the greatest and standard people are going to immediately fire back.
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Figured I'd post my findings as well from comparing the 11 Pool build with the 13 Pool jacobman posted.
+ Show Spoiler +The times noted are when they started building.
11P18H
Pool 1:33
Hatch 3:00
Queen1 2:39
Queen2 3:43
Minerals@4min 1854
Minerals@5min 2564
Minerals@6min 3604
Drones@6min 43
13P15H
Pool 1:48
Hatch 2:42
Queen1 3:02
Queen2 3:55
Minerals@4min 1810
Minerals@5min 2600
Minerals@6min 3615
Drones@6min 42
According to my tests both builds are pretty much even economically. You just have to decide if you value the earlier pool or faster creep more.
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On December 04 2010 01:03 Pehrfect wrote:Figured I'd post my findings as well from comparing the 11 Pool build with the 13 Pool jacobman posted. + Show Spoiler +The times noted are when they started building.
11P18H
Pool 1:33
Hatch 3:00
Queen1 2:39
Queen2 3:43
Minerals@4min 1854
Minerals@5min 2564
Minerals@6min 3604
Drones@6min 43
13P15H
Pool 1:48
Hatch 2:42
Queen1 3:02
Queen2 3:55
Minerals@4min 1810
Minerals@5min 2600
Minerals@6min 3615
Drones@6min 42
According to my tests both builds are pretty much even economically. You just have to decide if you value the earlier pool or faster creep more.
Thanks for actually trying to do a comparison of your own instead of trying to make me do extra work that isn't needed. Those results seem perfectly possible. Could you post the replays of the two? That would be useful. I always end up with closer to 3530 or 3540 with the 11 pool, which is also what the OP's replay showed. I'm going to watch his ladder games closely and see if maybe he changed something that he didn't mention to make it better since the original replay he posted.
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Bit of a tangent (and I can't comment on the whole thread because I lost track around page 13), but everyone should try out each of these builds, if for no other reason than to improve your game  I've been trying to test these builds in YABOT and trust me, trying to get the build down perfect creates all kinds of awesome habits (like constantly checking for free larvae), and introducing other variables like when to gas, when to scout, etc will make all this stuff second nature. Sheer repetition. You start shaving off a second here, a few seconds there and suddenly you're getting stuff out a LOT faster.
So regardless of how this discussion turns out, I'm already better haha. I'm around mid diamond (1200'ish) so I'm sure some of you know what I mean. Thanks all.
edit: as for something relevant, if nothing else we've found viable alternatives to the 14 pool, and we can at least go pool first and still have a viable economic build and likewise be less vulnerable to cheese. Cool. Although in an ideal situation, we'd still go 14 hatch/15 pool
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Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend.
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On December 04 2010 00:12 raf3776 wrote:
I don't see why people are so quick to shut down a build because no pros do it. To get a " true test" it would have to be done in 100s of games in different scenarios. The best part is an earlier pool. The few extra minerals aren't gonna help if you can't survive or you do survive but are extremely crippled in the process. So I say good job to the OP for providing a thought out post and replays. People hardly like to point out the positives and quick to make up negatives. I am quite convinced that the 11-pool will be a famous build. It combines a lot of advantages while having very few setbacks. The longer I think about it, the more I think that 11-Overpool is the general "best" pool possible. Of course in certain match-ups on certain maps, other zerg BOs can still be better. But I like the idea to use a single general BO and refine it instead of learning several completely different BOs.
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On December 04 2010 01:13 Ryhn wrote:
Why so hostile Jacob?
I understand you're tired, but there's no need to get snarky with me. I read the first few pages, then skimmed to the end of the thread because I was excited.
We have too many conflicting results, so we need more data. I'm not ready to claim either build to be conclusively 'more right' for an early pool - my nudge to you was a request for further testing, I did not mean to offend.
It's okay, I was just a little annoyed at the moment because I spent a lot of time testing this and people seemed to just pretend I wasn't presenting any possible contradictory data. Sorry if I was hostile.
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EPT
