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so, I'm not sure what to think of this build.
Tried it at the ~2.4k level (which honestly doesnt mean much) and had my friend try a 4wg rush against me. I did win, and before I was having trouble with some blink warp gate rush builds on ladder, mostly because I am just a greedy zerg in general.
anyway, I noticed the late speed was sort of a bummer, but at the same time I FELT like i was further ahead economically because I was pumping drones pretty hard for a wee bit before the rush was coming.
anyway, after I win the game I watch the replay and notice my drone count was only around 20-21 before i started pumping the zlings, which is ridiculous for me, since I usually pump the zlings a bit later, around 26-27.
so, does the only reason why this build is "working" is because it makes you feel like you are droning harder than you actually were?
I mean, If i stopped producing at 20 drones with a 14 gas 13 pool build I could win just as easily, however in my head I would feel real bad about cutting drones so early, so I usually don't.
I don't know, just a thought.
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in zvz i was gasing at 14 and getting the 100 for speed than pulling 2 for like a minute than putting 2 back if i needed blings. zvp is a little more flexible you can gas a fair bit later i find 18/19 and have a pretty good economy
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Well, I'm 5 for 5 with this build. Unfortunately that is mostly due to me being 6 pooled three times. Twice by zerg, and once by a protoss who accidentally went random. I finally found my safe build for steppes in zvz at the very least.
Oh well, back to testing.
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While it does seem the play in the replays isn't perfect, it's irrelevant to whether or not the build is viable. The original poster's goal was to demonstrate an opening build order that is highly economically oriented while retaining the flexibility for early aggression and/or defense. I believe the OP certainly succeeded in demonstrating that. Economically it matched quite well with hatch first. In all honesty, that's all that all he needed to show. Everything else was gravy. Over time those who experiment with the build can make adjustments to it depending on what's scouted, what the opponent does, and it will become more refined, leading to near perfect play. Right now, there is no replay demonstrating a build order with near perfect play.They may display good adaptability and good control, but the beauty that is RTS gaming is there is no perfection, only equalizing using asymmetrical advantages. Take the build for what it's worth.
Currently I'm playing around with it for a bit. A lot of my timings are completely thrown off, but it's quite nice to experiment for yourself. Thank you for posting this up--I know you could have just as easily kept it to yourself and slay nerds with :D
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I did a practice match against my previous opponent. (Turns out he did get the build from here  )
He did his old standard opening, which is 13 pool 13 gas. I decided to post it just to compare the opening economies to one another.
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On December 03 2010 15:16 Terrifyer wrote:
so, I'm not sure what to think of this build.
Tried it at the ~2.4k level (which honestly doesnt mean much) and had my friend try a 4wg rush against me. I did win, and before I was having trouble with some blink warp gate rush builds on ladder, mostly because I am just a greedy zerg in general.
anyway, I noticed the late speed was sort of a bummer, but at the same time I FELT like i was further ahead economically because I was pumping drones pretty hard for a wee bit before the rush was coming.
anyway, after I win the game I watch the replay and notice my drone count was only around 20-21 before i started pumping the zlings, which is ridiculous for me, since I usually pump the zlings a bit later, around 26-27.
so, does the only reason why this build is "working" is because it makes you feel like you are droning harder than you actually were?
I mean, If i stopped producing at 20 drones with a 14 gas 13 pool build I could win just as easily, however in my head I would feel real bad about cutting drones so early, so I usually don't.
I don't know, just a thought.
I actually noticed the exact same phenomenon. One thing I played around with was throwing down a gas after the 17 overlord to try to sink drones that way for zergling speed. Honestly I feel kind of naked without that speed, especially against early stalker harass. With the extra mins, I basically sunk it into an earlier gas. I also experimented with going two gas for a really fast zergling speed, followed by taking all drones off gas for heavy powering. I also found that since the hatch goes up a bit later than with hatch first builds, I need to set the spinecrawler down earlier relative to hatch completion (pretty much when there's enough creep to) to deal with 2 barracks pressure. I've found that there are enough minerals to actually do all that, with the flexibility of two extractors already down if I need to switch over for roaches, banelings, or lair. I actually quite like this build.
For those who are looking to try it, be warned that you will most likely lose some games you may not have had you gone with an ordinary build order. This is the natural process of trying something new. It's supposed to happen! Then you'll start to realize what you need to tighten up the build.
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I prefer to 15 hatch every game. And I honestly feel 11 pool is a BIT damaging for your economy, as sure the zerglings provide protection and map control, but I rather 13-15 pool. Other than that it's decent, but yeah a delayed pool could be better, even though against cheese it might be harder.
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On December 03 2010 15:37 TriniMasta wrote:
I prefer to 15 hatch every game. And I honestly feel 11 pool is a BIT damaging for your economy, as sure the zerglings provide protection and map control, but I rather 13-15 pool. Other than that it's decent, but yeah a delayed pool could be better, even though against cheese it might be harder.
How can you still 15 hatch? It loses guaranteed to a properly executed 2rax, or even to this 11pool build... The terrans I play go 2rax even after they scout a 10 pool lol.
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On December 03 2010 15:37 TriniMasta wrote:
I prefer to 15 hatch every game. And I honestly feel 11 pool is a BIT damaging for your economy, as sure the zerglings provide protection and map control, but I rather 13-15 pool. Other than that it's decent, but yeah a delayed pool could be better, even though against cheese it might be harder.
The purpose of the build is that it ISNT damaging for your economy. You DONT have to get those zerglings if you scout that your opponent isn't going for an aggressive build. The point is that the earlier queen allows you to redrone and catch up for the drones you cut by throwing down the earlier spawning pool, and it works out almost as economically as going hatch first.
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On December 03 2010 15:24 Providence wrote:
While it does seem the play in the replays isn't perfect, it's irrelevant to whether or not the build is viable. The original poster's goal was to demonstrate an opening build order that is highly economically oriented while retaining the flexibility for early aggression and/or defense. I believe the OP certainly succeeded in demonstrating that. Economically it matched quite well with hatch first. In all honesty, that's all that all he needed to show. Everything else was gravy. Over time those who experiment with the build can make adjustments to it depending on what's scouted, what the opponent does, and it will become more refined, leading to near perfect play. Right now, there is no replay demonstrating a build order with near perfect play.They may display good adaptability and good control, but the beauty that is RTS gaming is there is no perfection, only equalizing using asymmetrical advantages. Take the build for what it's worth.
Currently I'm playing around with it for a bit. A lot of my timings are completely thrown off, but it's quite nice to experiment for yourself. Thank you for posting this up--I know you could have just as easily kept it to yourself and slay nerds with :D
Good post. No one is saying that this build is superior to all others in every way, it's just a nice safe build that doesn't sacrifice much in the way of econ if the rush never comes.
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By request, a reminder.
On December 03 2010 07:33 fleeze wrote:
i was comparing it to both you know? usually i prefer hatch first builds. op says this build is better economically than a 14/15 hatch. i say it's bullshit because it wastes larvae and has high opportunity costs(less minerals overall) early on. and it's behind a 14 pool if put under pressure. these are my main points.
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Looking at the original posts, the claims about the build the OP makes are:
On December 02 2010 08:20 jdseemoreglass wrote:
After doing countless empirical tests regarding the most economical Zerg opening in my previous thread, we were surprised to find this 11 Overpool build doing extremely well economically. It has so far tested superior to every other pool-first build, and is only slightly behind 14Hatch/15Pool in optimum economics.
The true strength of this build however, lay in it's incredible flexibility and safety. It can easily hold off a 6pool, 2rax, 2gate, or any other kind of rush build you can think of. If you scout your opponent playing a macro game, you have the flexibility of choosing whether to punish him with a sudden attack or keep up with his economy just fine. Likely even surpass it!
There is a real psychological value to this build as well. Once your opponent scouts your 11pool, he will likely overcompensate by playing more defensive and less macro-oriented. This of course is due to the widely held misconception that a 10 pool build "must do damage, or it is behind in economy." We have proven this to simply not be the case with this specific build.
It also negates the value of early scouting by your opponents, because this build can transition into anything: heavy eco, 1-base all-in, you name it. This will force your opponent to scout consistently, which will be made all the more difficult by early lings you can get.
This build will get you more larva out by the 6-minute mark than any other tested, so it does great at holding off 4gates or other mid-game pushes.
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I really enjoy this build. I played about 10 games w/ it tonight and won all except 1 of them (plat player tho).
Because this build gets a pool so early I have a few builds that I do w/ it. they start out w/
11 ovi
scout
11 pool
16 queen
Then I can do 18 hatch or roach warren on the 75% queen mark (with gas as well) for a pretty normal roach push.
17 ovie
18 ovie
I have been getting my queen on 20 because I find that I have the minerals and don't have the larvae for the 21st drone
Gas on 22-25 w/ 3 drones that come off spawn for gas
2 crawlers at nat
drone to 36
and from here the game looks and feels like 14h/14p and 14p/16h. The main benefit of this build is the earlier pool and option to become a 1 base play after scout.
It really doesn't matter what you do early game (this or hatch first or gas/pool) if you make to the same point at the same time in the midgame. The process of doing an 11 overpool has a more jarring effect on the opp and can lead into 7rr as well as an eco game. The benefit of hatch first (which I love doing) is negligable when you can't defend some attacks.
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I've played quite a few with this build. It does very good in 2 things: fends off early rushes such as 6 pool and 2 rax and does well mid to late game since you will have an expo running almost as good as 14/15 hatch.
There is a small window when you are saturating your expo. A strong marine push or a strong sling harass can take you down really quick. Your hatch compared to 14/15 hatch goes a bit later which means spines are also delayed. You usually need 1 or 2 to properly defend your expo. I was discussing this with Skraj but I don't we got to a optimal point of where you ought to make your spines without losing your economic advantage which is by essence what a 14/15 hatch does.
Furthermore there is another problem I've encountered. I have to say this is also a natural problem with 14/15 hatch and of course i mean Gas I've also been running tests to see when is the best time to get your first gas under this build. It seems that either after your queen is done might be best solution for now.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems?
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Just wanted to give a shoutout to OP, after his work on testing builds, he's doing a new thread just for us!
Man GG to you!
EDIT: turn this into a [G]! PM me if you want some help to write up 
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Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something?
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I started using this tonight and so far have no complaints. I actually haven't lost with it yet. And as for why people may be confused about how this is as economically viable, my best guess is because since you have the early pool and queen, you have the option to crank out lings IF you need them, whereas if you go 14 pool, you almost always want to get out 4 lings at a minimum as a kinda scout/just-in-case sort of thing. Not to mention, in the games I played people saw an early pool and figured I was gonna do some kinda rush, where I just added on drones.
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This is my question, why does everyone in the GSL 14 hatch 13 pool? Seems like the guys that play 12 hours a day would have experimented with different builds and found the best one...
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Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something?
11 overpool takes advantage of 2 bumps to surpass a more steadily built up 14 pool: drones 10 and 11 come out earlier and get more mining time, and drones from the first injection also hit the field sooner, thanks to the faster queen. The queen advantage is not apparent to everyone, but basically, inject provides 150% of the larva generation of a hatchery by itself. So, given the choice between having an extra naked hatchery for a while, or having injections on top of your hatchery for that same amount of time, if you want more larva, you pick the injections.
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On December 03 2010 18:45 Tobberoth wrote:
Let me just get this right... almost immediately after the SC2 beta was released, people realized that the earliest pool which doesn't hurt economy is 14, some people even putting it down later. This was so standard, in fact, if i remember correctly Zerg was the only race which had a stong standard way of playing early. You still see professional players going either hatch first or 14 pool, anything else seems so uncommon.
Now, a couple of months later, this random guy on a forum does a few tests and realize that 11 pool is just as economically viable as a 14 pool. How can this come so late? How can people like fruitdealer etc not have realized this? It seems just to good to be true. "You know how you want lings early but have to wait so you get a strong economy? Well, with my magic fix, you can get your lings way earlier than before AND you get the same economy!".
Is this really what's going on, or am I missing something?
You're missing the fact that the goal isn't to make zerglings earlier. If you do that with this build you'll be behind.
The goal is to have the opportunity to make them if needed while building a very strong econ with an expo.
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EPT
