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[G] The Art Of ZvP 2 - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Baobab
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)153 Posts
November 21 2010 19:39 GMT
#101
Excellent guide good sir, I commend you and send all my slimy Zerg loving to your esteemed person.

As mentioned above, however, your use of "I ain't" instead of "I'm not" was annoying, not to be the grammar police or anything. Do what you will, but be warned that it makes you sound like a hillbilly from the Deep South (which you obviously are not, having written such an awesome guide - and also being Swedish lol).
한국어 배우고 있어요 ... 너무 어려우니까 도와주세요 ㅋㅋㅋ
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 07:04:55
November 22 2010 07:04 GMT
#102
No this type of 2 gate is the one im refering too... the type that forces you to get some roaches as you expand and impacts your early economy badly due to forcefields nastiness..


http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=167754
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
reprise
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada316 Posts
November 22 2010 07:08 GMT
#103
Great read, and extremely well laid-out
for graphs of passion, and charts of stars
RoyalFlush
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada109 Posts
November 22 2010 08:13 GMT
#104
Absolutely fantastic post
Ive been having hard time against 2 stargate protoss all the time
The opponent will either open up with 1 zealot 2 stalker push or 1 zealot 2 sentries wall-in and goes 2 stargates and go mass phoenixes
Im either caught completely off guard or not enough AA to counter this
When his 3 initial phoenixes come to my base I will have droned up quite hard with only 2 queens to defend with evo chamber up and spore maybe just starting to go up
The opponent will usually pick off 2-3 drones and leave
and come back with about 6 phoenixes and kill 1 of my queens + 2-3 more drones and back out
the next time he comes back I will have my hydra den up and about 5-7 hydras up but he has about 10 phoenixes and picks off hydras and more drones and more queens that has popped up
and by the time I finally defend against pheonixes his ground army will usually dominate my army and finish the game I need serious help against 2 stargate build
I feel as if I just focus to counter that 2 stargate build I wont be able to defend against other strong all-in ish builds
And I tried to sacrifice my overlord around 4:40 mark but his stalker picks my ovie b4 I could scout his 2 stargates in the back of his base
btw I play mostly on metalopolis or xelnaga caverns
You called down the thunder?
d_wAy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States104 Posts
November 22 2010 15:05 GMT
#105
I was having a lot of trouble with double stargate play too recently. Try cranking out those extra queens once you've either seen, scouted, or suspected stargate play. It'll save your life. It's also helpful to drop the evo and get a supporting spore (I see that you did get one.. but w/o a replay it's hard to say anything about timing). Just don't be too afraid of defending with as little as you can and don't forget to transfuse (you can transfuse the queen that's lifted)! Good creep spread gives you the vision and speed you need to fend off before you can defend with better anti-air. Sorry if the response is a bit vague, it's hard without a replay so it really boils down to queens, persistent scouting and some cute micro. I will say though, with regards to your ovi scout, you can also run a ling up and down his ramp. That kind of passive sentry FF play / aggressive scout deny should tip you off to teching immediately. Don't know if that was helpful?
Achaia
Profile Joined July 2010
United States643 Posts
November 22 2010 15:09 GMT
#106
Very cool and informative post. I like how in detail you go into your standard opening as well as your drone timing and tech decisions based on your scouting. Unfortunately I haven't had time to read the entire thing just yet but I did notice that the ever so popular 7 - 8 Roach push is missing from this guide. This is a strat that seems to be quite popular vs. Protoss players right now and I've had a pretty good amount of success with it myself. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that strat and if there's a particular reason you don't outline it here.
http://www.youtube.com/SCBattleGrounds
d_wAy
Profile Joined November 2010
United States104 Posts
November 22 2010 15:37 GMT
#107
It's a really weak build against most competent toss players for a few reasons:

It is not an economy-centric build, meaning if your rush is shut down, you are not on a great footing as you had to cut drone production to crank out those roaches (not to mention, with most variants of 7RR, a lot of players spend all their resources on those units so unlike 5RR, you can't really open into an expansion very quickly upon pushing out). You'll notice, it doesn't take more than sentry/stalker to shut down this push. In which case, it is worth mentioning that most sub-diamond / plat players are using this strategy as a "fast-laddering" strategy and overcommiting to the push when it is evident they are being shut down. If you can't get up the ramp no matter how hard you try, save your units and economy up (hard as it may be with 7RR, but that's the weakness of the build)

You would be better off with 5RR+Speedlings if you are even considering this type of early pressure but I believe the point of this post is to establish a fairly solid, stable eco-opening for zerg and detailing logical progressions based on active scouting.
Achaia
Profile Joined July 2010
United States643 Posts
November 22 2010 16:28 GMT
#108
On November 23 2010 00:37 d_wAy wrote:
It's a really weak build against most competent toss players for a few reasons:

It is not an economy-centric build, meaning if your rush is shut down, you are not on a great footing as you had to cut drone production to crank out those roaches (not to mention, with most variants of 7RR, a lot of players spend all their resources on those units so unlike 5RR, you can't really open into an expansion very quickly upon pushing out). You'll notice, it doesn't take more than sentry/stalker to shut down this push. In which case, it is worth mentioning that most sub-diamond / plat players are using this strategy as a "fast-laddering" strategy and overcommiting to the push when it is evident they are being shut down. If you can't get up the ramp no matter how hard you try, save your units and economy up (hard as it may be with 7RR, but that's the weakness of the build)

You would be better off with 5RR+Speedlings if you are even considering this type of early pressure but I believe the point of this post is to establish a fairly solid, stable eco-opening for zerg and detailing logical progressions based on active scouting.


Well obviously every build has weaknesses but I thought the point of the 7RR was to put on early pressure while expanding behind it. Obviously you cut some drones initially while getting out the Roaches but my take on the build was that it's used to keep your opponent in his one base and playing defensively while you get stable economically, not necessarily as a kill move. Sometimes it has worked out that way for me (I'm mid Diamond by the way and for some reason am playing against 2k+ Diamond players) but usually it's just a way of expanding and feeling safe about it.
http://www.youtube.com/SCBattleGrounds
Tsabo
Profile Joined September 2010
Russian Federation266 Posts
November 22 2010 16:41 GMT
#109
Such late expo timing and 6 lings is sure super safe, but its bad against ANY protoss opening play. If you want to be safe just go for 12 scout 14 pool 14 hatch, and make a roach warren instead of the hatch if you see super agression.
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
November 28 2010 08:40 GMT
#110
My protoss friend has a very macro oriented style, because he played zerg for quite a while until they were buffed. I just cant seem to win. If i try to out macro him, and get greedy, a well executed timing push with upgrades finishing will annihilate me. If i make hydras his composition with shift toward mass sentry and stalker, and near perfect forcefields dominate my army, forcing me to reinforce heavily where i get out-macroed. If i go roaches to mitigate FF effects then he pumps out enough immortals and FF's me anyway. I just cant seem to figure out why i'm losing so badly. His play is very solid. Am i losing due to weak micro, macro or just bad decisioning. I cant seem to figure it out. How should
this ZvP be handled?

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169540

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169537

"Macro while you macro all day every day"
OasiS.oasis
Profile Joined May 2010
79 Posts
November 28 2010 09:38 GMT
#111
What do you do against a protoss who goes warpgate expand into two stargate phoenix/voidrays and then transitions into collossi if you make hydras?
Cralis
Profile Joined November 2010
4 Posts
November 28 2010 21:00 GMT
#112
Totally awesome post, this helped me out a lot.
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
December 14 2010 12:55 GMT
#113
Just re-bumping this because there have been quite a few ZvP related question threads in the past few days and any of those thread starters can learn a lot by reading the OP.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
LoOny
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany22 Posts
December 14 2010 13:02 GMT
#114
Just wanted to say that i really really really love this guide... totally awesome, thank you!
"...don't worry, it is dead already..."
TheDominator
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
New Zealand336 Posts
December 14 2010 20:08 GMT
#115
You sir, are truly epic. So much time spent to help the community. Thnx.
No mutas in this guide at all? Muta/Ling when done properly is deadly.
You can go a long way with a smile. You can go a lot farther with a smile and a gun.
Grapefruit
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany439 Posts
December 14 2010 22:51 GMT
#116
Wow, this is an amazing guide, thanks a lot!
Starcraft 2 is funny, everybody picks the race, which he considers to be the weakest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
cramermon
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany17 Posts
December 14 2010 23:07 GMT
#117
Great guide and well written! ty so much ! pvz seems so hard atm =(

but still got problems around that 20 minute mark!
Atrium
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada109 Posts
December 17 2010 09:09 GMT
#118
Thanks so much for this.
nariga
Profile Joined November 2010
5 Posts
December 20 2010 16:54 GMT
#119
Do you have any thoughts on this "unbeatable Speedray PvZ?" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903
freestalker
Profile Joined March 2010
469 Posts
December 20 2010 17:07 GMT
#120
On November 19 2010 06:32 ChickenLips wrote:
You're going to avoid a lot of idiots and attract more readers by pointing out somewhere that you are a 2.3k Zerg on EU. for whatever its worth^^


tbh, every reasonable person doesn't give a shit about such info. the quality of content is more important.

and this guy is a bit known, also has done an excellent job this time
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