On December 21 2010 01:54 nariga wrote:
Do you have any thoughts on this "unbeatable Speedray PvZ?" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903

When did I say it's unbeatable?

nariga

5 Posts

December 20 2010 19:31 GMT

#122

Oh right, sorry, my bad. Read through your post and thought this was the title. "http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/eooh0/unbeatable_speedray_pvz_use_it_while_it_lasts/" Sorry.

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10290 Posts

December 20 2010 19:41 GMT

#123

Omg wow amazing guide ! good work and thanks for making this! awesome flow chart

IPA

United States3206 Posts

December 20 2010 20:16 GMT

#124

On December 21 2010 02:07 freestalker wrote:

tbh, every reasonable person doesn't give a shit about such info.

So you're confident taking advice from Silver players?

Thanks for the guide OP -- lots of solid info here. ZvP is so dynamic now what with the skytoss trends. Loving it.

1Lamb1Rice

United States435 Posts

December 20 2010 21:08 GMT

#125

this is so helpful as zvp is one of my worst matchups.

Xanczor

United States254 Posts

December 20 2010 22:18 GMT

#126

Great work and effort to the community, although it would be literally insane if u did one of these for all 9 matchups, but that would be freaking amazing.

tainted muffin

United States158 Posts

December 20 2010 22:28 GMT

#127

On December 21 2010 01:54 nariga wrote:
Do you have any thoughts on this "unbeatable Speedray PvZ?" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903

use infesters to fungal growth and then out range them with mass queen

but they are patching it so it doesnt really matter

Jtn

444 Posts

December 21 2010 07:54 GMT

#128

Got a question about the quick +1 attack. If I see the protoss chrono boosting out his forge, should I still go for the +1 attack or go for the +1 armor to even out his attack upgrade?

MasterJack

Canada215 Posts

December 22 2010 01:04 GMT

#129

Awesome guide. Can't wait to read your ZvZ

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

December 22 2010 14:00 GMT

#130

On December 21 2010 01:54 nariga wrote:
Do you have any thoughts on this "unbeatable Speedray PvZ?" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903

The first thing you need to do is notice that he is doing the build. When combining an expansion with Stargate tech they will have less units that normally and thus you won't really be able to do much pushing (which allows you to Drone and tech hard), they will also be more inclined to get Cannons and perhaps most importantly they will get their Assimilators much earlier in their natural.

With a normal Warpgate/Robo based build they normally delay their Assimilators for a while. I don't know exactly when you normally take them but I don't think it's before 10 minutes, on the other hand the Void Ray/Colossi build requires you to take them right of the bat when the Nexus completes. So sacrifice Zerglings into his natural to keep tabs on his army count and his Assimilator timing do learn that he's up to some tech heavy build.

Now, when you know he's going to be teching rather than pushing, get a Spire right away and also try to scout what tech he's getting with an Overseer. If it's Stargate, get +1 Air Attack and an Infestation Pit and Mutalisks and expand as much as you possibly can. Get ~2 Infestors, if he goes out to harass you'll Fungal his army and smash it. When you have Infestors he pretty much cannot leave his base with an air based army so he will turtle and throw everything on one limit fight.

Here's some pointers for winning the last battle:

Get dual Spires as soon as possible and upgrade both Air Attack and Air Armor.
Remove all Observers from your army and try to keep your Mutalisk/Corruptor ratio hidden while sacrificing Mutalisks or Overlords or Zerglings to find out his Phoenix/Void Ray ratio.
Suicide all ground units to free up supply.
Build a lot of Spore Crawlers in locations you cannot afford to lose, like your main and expansions with a lot of Minerals/Gas remainin.
Use the "Extractor Trick" with Spine Crawlers to go beyond the 200 supply limit without sacrificing your Drones.
Try to separate his army into two halves with Fungal Growth and fight them one at a time.
Use Corruption.
If he uses Vortex, run your whole army into it so that he won't get to fight one half at a time.
Get an extra hidden Spire somewhere on the map so you can keep making units even if he wins the first battle and snipes your initial Spires.

Here's a replay against ZeeRaX, he's a 3.1k Diamond Protoss from an S-class division and has been using that playstyle since September, at least, and I think he's the original inventor of the playstyle. So he should be pretty good with it.

Some notes though, I upgraded my ground units too so that I would be able to remake a Hydralisk army should I lose my air one. I don't think that is necessary though and will probably only slow you down. Also, I think high level Protosses are blind countering the Roach opening too heavily nowadays so I've started opening Muta/Ling on all maps which means I was prepared for this tech path right from the start.

nariga

5 Posts

December 23 2010 00:18 GMT

#131

Wow didn't expect that huge of a response. Thank you for taking your time to write such an in-depth reply. Can't wait for the ZvZ guide.

nariga

5 Posts

December 23 2010 00:57 GMT

#132

In the chartflow thing, you said that if I see a 4gate or robo, I should get +1 atk, do you mean +1 range atk or +1 melee atk or both? Also, if P gets +1 ground attack, then I think it should be worth mentioning to get armor upgrade so zealots will still take 3 hits to kill a zergling instead of 2.

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

December 23 2010 01:08 GMT

#133

On December 23 2010 09:57 nariga wrote:
In the chartflow thing, you said that if I see a 4gate or robo, I should get +1 atk, do you mean +1 range atk or +1 melee atk or both? Also, if P gets +1 ground attack, then I think it should be worth mentioning to get armor upgrade so zealots will still take 3 hits to kill a zergling instead of 2.

The flowchart is wrong on the upgrades. I forgot to update it with the latest revision.

You won't be making Zerglings with this playstyle, so that breakpoint is not important. And you obviously won't be upgrading Zergling attack either.

nariga

5 Posts

December 23 2010 01:17 GMT

#134

By the way, why only have 1 evo so late in the game? I usually have 2 for atk + armor at the same time and 3 evos for the strat I'm going to talk about here. Have you read this ovi dropping banelings strat? I have tried it and it's extremely effective (2.2k diamond ladder), especially in a 200 vs 200 army because the banelings are so supply efficient. But if possible, maybe you can try it and propose a BO/more in-depth strategy guide for it because right now, I have no idea when to get the ventral sac + ovi speed + banelings nest (right now, I just get it when I have a lot excess resources, which might not be the best timing). Thx. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126

metalsonic

Netherlands95 Posts

December 23 2010 01:27 GMT

#135

Why aren't there any guides telling how Protoss should play macro ......

There are everywhere Terran and Zerg guides ( as if terran need's guides for MMM with vikings and ghosts lol ) . Though I wonder if there is any good Protoss guide that describes the safest protoss build order .

Lobotomist

United States1541 Posts

December 23 2010 02:24 GMT

#136

Against a protoss going for a nexus first, when do you take your third base? I've found that on some maps you can take an immediate third base before you have any combat forces. I don't know if it's really viable though, as most toss players seem unused to the transition from defensive posture (for the 15 nexus) and aggressive (you're on 3 bases)

headies

United States63 Posts

December 23 2010 06:25 GMT

#137

On December 23 2010 10:27 metalsonic wrote:
Why aren't there any guides telling how Protoss should play macro ......

There are everywhere Terran and Zerg guides ( as if terran need's guides for MMM with vikings and ghosts lol ) . Though I wonder if there is any good Protoss guide that describes the safest protoss build order .

Yeah, this!

Plexa's guide is the closest thing, but it is kind of showing its age now.

I haven't seen any flowcharts like this for P, however.

To the OP: Well done!

Zerokaiser

Canada885 Posts

December 23 2010 07:28 GMT

#138

I don't see any flowchart for Mutaling

Why don't you love mutaliing?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

December 24 2010 10:51 GMT

#139

Happy Birthday.

I noticed that JulyZerg opens in the exact same way, speed, then drones off gas and taking the natural at 21 supply.
Is there any time when you basically would suggest putting the drones back on gas? Like when expansion half way done or something like that? I know it depends on the situation, but I often feel rather clueless when to put them back on gas..

pampelmus

Switzerland215 Posts

December 28 2010 09:17 GMT

#140

I alwayls put them back on gas when the Hatch and the 2nd Queen are building. Next priority is Lair, so get the dudes back in