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The Art Of ZvP 2
Welcome to SieGe’s first SC2 guide. I used to write a lot of these back in Brood War. I'll describe a a macro style of play based on Roaches and Hydras.
Edit: This guide makes no mention of the mass Void Ray style which have grown increasingly popular these last few days. Perhaps I'll get around to it when I myself have more experience against it.
Table Of Contents
0.0 Opening BO
1.0 Flowchart
1.1 Defensive Timings
1.2 Economic Timings
2.0 Scouting
3.0 The Economic Builds
3.1 Warpgate Expand
3.2 Nexus First
4.0 The Defensive Builds
4.1 4 Gate
4.2 Immortal Push
4.3 Warp Prism
4.4 Blink Stalkers
4.5 DT Rush
4.6 Stargate
4.7 The Unknown
4.8 Cannon Wall-In
4.9 1 Zealot 2 Stalkers Push
5.0 General Tips
5.1 Dealing With Limit
5.2 Army Usage
5.3 Creep Tricks
5.4 Injects
5.5 Overlord Theory
6.0 Offensive Opportunities
6.1 All-In Vs Nexus First
6.2 All-In Vs Warpgate Expand
6.3 Baneling Bust On Scrap Station
6.4 Roach Poke On Blistering Sands
7.0 Replays
8.0 Afterword
The numbers are there to allow you to use the search function to get straight to the sought-after section.
0.0 Opening BO
I use the good old Speedling opening when playing against Protoss because I think it’s the opening with the best worst-case scenario. It might not always be the best opening, but it’s very stable and allows you to make good use of superior knowledge and mechanics.
Here’s the opening build order:
14 Gas (at 100 minerals)
14 Pool
15 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zergling Speed & pull Drones from Gas
18 Zergling
19 Zergling
20 Drone
21 Expand
I honestly hasn’t played a 2 Gate opening in weeks so I ain’t covering it in this guide, but if you happen to face one your Overlord should have found it out by now and you should stay on one base and get Roaces asap. Just mine enough gas for around 3. You don't need more than that to stay alive and more than ain't gonna do more damage to him either, so don't get more. Then push him back and expand and continue normally.
So let’s assume you ain’t playing a 2 Gate, here’s how we continue:
Make a Creep Tumor with your first Queen’s second round of energy.
First Queen Done: Second Queen
Second Queen Done: Put Drones back in gas.
Get a Spine Crawler around the time you start your Lair, unless he forces early Zerglings with Stalker pressure.
Note that if you instead make a Creep Tumor with your second Queen’s first round of Energy your Queens won’t line up their Injects as well as if you do it this way. Also get a Spine Crawler around 5:00 if the distances are very short, like on Metalopolis’ close positions.
1.0 Flowchart
Here’s a flowchart I made, it should provide a basic summary of this whole guide, but it doesn’t go into the details. Right-click and press View Picture for the full view.
![[image loading]](http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/9853/zvp.jpg)
1.1 Defensive Timings
Here’s a compilation of some Protoss timings I use to motivate my strategic choices.
Tech Stuff:
WarpGates Ready: 5:40 (2 CBs)
Warpgate Expand Build Moving Out To Natural: 5:30-6:30
Twilight Council Started: 5:00 (Nazguls Blink Build)
Blink Done: 7:10 (3 CBs)
Twilight Council Started: 4:30 (Common DT Rush)
Dark Shrine Started: 5:20
DTs Out: 7:10
Stargate started: 4:30
1 Phoenix Out: 6:05 (1 CB)
3 Phoenix Out: 7:15 (3 CB)
Hallucination Out (No Chrono): 8:30
2 Void Rays Out: 6:55 (4 CBs)
Robo started: 4:20
Warp Prism Out: 6:05 (1 CB)
Ob+2x Immortals Out: 7:15 (4 CBs)
Note: A full CB removes 10 seconds, no matter what you cast it at.
1.2 Economic Timings
Here’s a summary of how your economic situation is supposed to look vs a WarpGate Expand build. Create a table of your own and compare, perhaps it can make you realise just how important Larva and Overlord management is. Or perhaps you’re keeping up - good work!
Drones at 5:00: 18
Drones at 6:00: 29
Drones at 7:00: 37
Zergling Speed Done: 5:00
Lair Done: 7:20
P.S I normally only hit these in YABOT. There’s so much to think of in real games, hence I tend to lag behind. However, the better you are the closer you’ll get.
2.0 Scouting
In the order they are likely to occur in a standard game:
Ling Scouting
When your first Zerglings pop, immediately rush one of them to his ramp to confirm his opening build order. The remaining ones should chase down the scouting Probe and then check the map for hidden Probes and Pylons. This alone could make the difference between a win and a loss against some Protoss builds.
From here on we must always keep track and the Protoss’ choke so that no Probes sneak out. It’s THAT important.
Overlord Sacrefice
Most Protoss tech buildings are started around 4:30, sacrifice an Overlord at 4:45 and we should be able to get in before his second Stalker/Sentry pops out and we will have great chances at seeing not only his tech but also his Gateway count.
Front Poking
Constantly running a Zergling up and down his ramp or in and out of his choke might revel a lot about his army composition which will be very useful when we decide when to stop Droning.
Another Overlord Sacrifice
Eventually it will be time for him to choose his midgame tech: Colossi, Templars or just mass Gateway units? Scout his main as soon as Overlord Speed is done and keep poking around till you know what choice he made.
Templar tech means we’ve more leeway to Drone hard while 6 Gateways would indicate that we’ll be struggling to stay alive with little ability to Drone at all. The first battle will most likely be decisive in this scenario.
Robotics on the other hand is a middle path. Get some Drones but more importantly, get a Spire. Corruptors are essential against Colossi.
Watchtower Control
In the mid and late game it will be very important to keep tabs on his army’s whereabouts, Xel’Naga Watchtowers help greatly in this so try to control them as often as possible. Also spread out Overlords to see as much of the map as possible.
3.0 The Economic Builds
Standard Protoss play generally means that he will expand, macro up some and push out around 7-9 minutes into the game.
3.1 Warpgate Expand
Tech to Lair as soon as 100 Gas is reached for the second time, then get Roach Warren asap and follow up with a second Extractor. Poke around a lot at his expansion to keep him feeling pressured and perhaps score a Probe kill, Drone hard in the meanwhile.
Make Zerglings to defend any push before Roach Warren is done and Roaches if the Warren is done. I think this can be rather tricky. Don't be afraid of throwing up a second Spine Crawler on small maps.
When the Lair completes, get Roach Speed as soon as possible, then take your third Extractor. If you suspect a mass Gateway build (try to judge the size of his army), get Burrow else get Overlord Speed and scout him as soon as it it's done.
Once you feel safe you want to Drone towards 50 and expand.
When 3 bases are secured you want to take your 4th, 5h & 6th gas very soon and get double Evolution Chambers as well as Hydra Tech. However, unless he's going Gateways only, stick with Roaches till you've forced a few Immortals.
Work your way towards 60-70 Drones on 3 bases.
3.2 Nexus First
Against the very fast expansion builds you could do a 5RRand try to harass him and force him to spend all his cash on cannons while your Hatch completes. Hit anything that’s out of Cannon range while you switch macromode back at home.
You could also go straight for the macro and Drone hard. Get his scouting Probe out quickly and make him wonder, laying a Roach Warren and canceling it once he’s gone can be a good idea. Don’t let him know he’s safe.
After that you can treat it very much like a Warpgate Expand. His initial push will be later but he’ll be able to go up to 5 or 6 Gateways earlier.
4.0 The Defensive Builds
These builds present a great opportunity to gain an early advantage if we scout them. However, if we don’t we’ll have to make a guess and might end up losing in a silly manner.
4.1 4 Gate
On some maps this can easily be held of with Spine Crawlers, but not on all so I’ll describe my Spine Crawlerless way to do it.
Lay Roach Warren at as soon as you know it’s a 4 Gate, preferbly at around 25 supply. Cut Drones at 31 supply (23 Drones) and don’t tech to Lair. First get some Zerglings to avoid wasting Larva while Roach Warren morphs and then get Roaches as these take some time to come out. Switch to Zerglings as the battle starts, this should also free up gas for Lair.
Kite his Zealots with Roaches and run your Zerglings around to hit his ranged units. Target the Sentrys first if you’ve got the speed and accuracy necessary.
Make sure you have Overlord support up to at least 60, this is when the first battle is likely to occur.
Also, it’s worth killing his proxy pylon with some Zerglings while the battle occur, even if you might lose the first fight your reinforcements will be far greater and the rush is basically held off once the Pylon goes down, unless its a Steppes sized map.
Avoid getting kited off creep by Stalkers, only chase him down if you can block him with Speedlings or have a ton more stuff than he do. Instead, turn into standard macro mode once the rush is defended, you should be at an advantage.
4.2 Immortal Push
Treat this as a 4 Gate but give priority to killing the Immortals first. After that he’ll mostly have Zealots which are easy prey for Roaches.
4.3 Warp Prism
You normally won’t be able to tell the difference between this and an Immortal push if you just scout a Robo. However, a Warp Prism build can support more Gateways than an Immortal Push. If you see a Robo and 4 or more Gateways it’s most likely a Warp Prism.
Good Overlord spread is paramount, you want those extra seconds to position your army correctly before he unloads. Also try to Snipe the Prism with your Queens while it’s in Warp-In mode. Whatever happens, don’t let him unload and forcefield your ramp!
If you can beat him back once you’ve probably got the game, economy-wise, treat the Warp Prism rush just like the 4 Gate and the Immortal Push.
4.4 Blink Stalkers
Against a Blink Stalker build you can get away with a few more Drones than against a 4 Gate. However, don’t go over 30. Tech to Lair and take a second Extractor as against an expand build. Against this build you want to mass only Speedlings while teching to Infestors. Get the Infestor Energy upgrade and start your Infestors, 2 of them should be enough, when the upgrade is at 30/80. The progress is visible in numbers if you hover the mouse over the progress bar. This will allow you to cast Fungal Growth 14 seconds earlier. One good Fungal is all you need to end the game, Stalkers are useless against Speedlings without Blink.
Even if you don’t scout a Twilight Council there’s a good chance that he’s doing this build if he has a lot of Stalkers early on. If you want to expand you generally want to make a lot of Sentrys as a Stalker/Zealot expand cannot hold Speedling/Roach aggression. Getting Sentrys early also allows him to save up a lot of energy. Hence he’s unlikely to make a lot of Stalkers unless he wants to be aggressive.
Edit: After further testing, I actually think I prefer teching to Hydras rather than Infestors. Sub 30 Drones mass Zerglings stays the same though.
4.5 DT Rush
A DT rush is really all about knowing that it’s coming, get that Overseer up and you’re ahead, miss it and you’re behind. If he does a normally timed DT rush you will need to start that Overseer right as your Lair finishes in order to have it complete before he gets to your base.
A DT rusher will generally build his Twilight Council about 30 seconds earlier than a Blink rusher. If the Council is just started as you Overlord gets in there he’s more likely to be Blink rushing while the DT rusher’s Council will be close to finished. The number of Stalkers may also tell the difference if you poke around his front with a Zergling every now and then.
4.6 Stargate
It won’t be till a little after 7 minutes that he is able to do damage to you with this build, and even then only if he catches you with your Queens split up. None the less, get a third Queen asap, get an Evolution Chamber at 6:00 and one Spore per mineral line to be safe. Tech to Hydras.
Your Spore Crawlers won’t be able to save every thing from Void Rays, but they will provide a safe haven for your Queens which you can use to perform hit and run tactics. Make sure your base ain’t built as a maze.
4.7 The Unknown
This position sucks to be in. You realise he hasn’t tried to expand yet and is sticking to one base but you don’t have a clue what he’s teching.
I’d get a third Queen, the Spore Crawlers (Evolution Chamber at 6:00, remember?) which will help us defend both DTs and a Stargate build. Then I’d tech Hydras which is good vs Stargate and decent vs Blink Stalkers. I’d cut Drones at 30 and mass Zerglings in the mean while.
Poke his front a lot, if you realise that his unit count is too high you better throw down some Spine Crawlers and prey he’ll give them time to complete.
4.8 Cannon Wall-In
One of the best things about a Pool first build is that you can easily throw down a Roach Warren and just bust out at an advantage. Don’t over commit, just break the contain and switch back to macro mode. If he expanded behind the contain it doesn’t hurt to poke around some afterwards, Zealots are notoriously bad against Roaches so make sure he either techs to a Stalker right away or has every thing covered with cannons. This will slow him down.
4.9 1 Zealot 2 Stalker Push
This is especially common on Blistering and Steppes. He’ll chrono boost out 1 Zealot and 2 Stalkers, all rallied to your natural. Speed will finish as the second Stalker arrives. Make 12 Zerglings and let him hit the Hatchery while you wait for speed to finish. Beware of him claiming your ramp though. It’s better to hide your initial Zerglings on the outside than on the inside.
5.0 General Tips
Here’s some general tips for the match up.
I cannot stress enough how important Corruptors are against Colossi. You won’t have any chance at all without them if he knows the basics of Forcefield micro.
Don't neglect air upgrades. Air attack is awesome for both Corruptors and Brood Lords, armor ain't as good though.
Never go over 80 Drones, more than that simply isn’t useful and will only weaken your limit army.
Add extra Hatcheries if your macro is bad so that you can spend those resources. Wasting minerals is bad but sitting with them in the bank is most often worse.
5.1 Army Usage
A combination of Roaches and Hydras are better than either or. Keep the Roaches in front to soak up damage, and long ranged but fragile Hydras in behind to boost your damage output.
Make sure your front is very wide or that you’re flanking. Avoid battle in bottlenecks or other slim areas where he can easily split your army in half with forcefields.
Sometimes it’s better not to engage if he has the greater army, sacrifice an expansion but save the Drones, then smite him on his way back. With your superior mobility you should be able to stop him from reinforcing his main army. Counter attacking could also be a good option in this situation.
If you want to play aggressive outside of your creep, bring a bunch of speedy Overlords to generate Creep over the battle. This is especially good when you have a lot of Hydras. In general, don’t use Hydras where there’s no Creep. They won’t be able to chase down a fleeing enemy, the won’t be able to flee themselves and microing them is that much harder.
5.2 Dealing With Limit
Dealing with limit can be hard. Mostly you'll be sitting back while gathering, Larva , resources and teching to Hive. You will lose the first battle if he engages before you have Brood Lords. However, with sufficient Corruptor numbers you should be able to take out his Colossi and his Sentrys won't have energy for a second round of forcefields so when your rienforcements pop the battlefield should be ripe for your victory. However, it's important that you don't let him back off and gather another huge army so try to force the battle this time around, even if it means attacking him.
Also, try adding Spine Crawlers on all locations he's likely to attack. Spine Crawlers doesn't take up supply and even if he can outrange them this means leaving his Colossi open to Corruptor snipes so they should help some in the first battle.
If you still cannot beat him you need a quicker Hive.
5.3 Creep Tricks
A Creep Tumor has a cooldown of 15 seconds, however, it takes longer than that to spread creep to its full range. The creep will spread faster if you create a new Creep Tumor as soon as the cooldown is ready, however it will spread even faster if you use a speedy Overlord to generate creep at the maximum range and then move the Overlord to the new maximum range once the new Creep Tumor is down.
Here’s some data, it’s the time taken to spread creep a fixed distance on Shakuras Plateau.
Almost Full Range Spread: 5 minutes 20 seconds
15s Spread: 4 minutes 10 seconds
Pre-Genereated Spread: 2 minutes 30 seconds
If you want to spread creep fast, it’s worth to micro a little with a speedy Overlord.
Furthermore, it takes 70 seconds for 1 Overlord or 1 Creep Tumor generate a full circle of creep. However, it also takes 70 seconds for the creep to disappear once the source is gone. If you use an Overlord to generate creep over all empty expansions you will not only spot an expansion attempt right away, but also force him to bring an anti air unit and if that wasn’t enough he’ll have to wait 70 seconds to expand after he has chased away your Overlord. This is fucking awesome!
Also, you can cancel a morphing Creep Tumor (unless it’s the first one) and be able to make a new one. This can be very helpful if he attacks while they’re morphing.
5.4 Injects
Larva management is the backbone of Zerg macro and Injecting properly is about half of it. If your screen is in your base when they Larva pop you will hear a familiar noise indicating that its time to Inject again. However, you shouldn’t spend much time looking at your base so this is a bad tell.
Instead, make it a habit to check your main Hatchery as often as possible and take note of the Inject timer. One full timer is 40 game seconds or 29 real seconds, try to figure you how much time you have left before it has run out. It’s better to be too quick than it is to be too slow. If there’s still 10 real seconds left when you check you can figure out a 10 seconds task to do and then check back again, but if you are 10 seconds too late you’ve wasted a little more than one Larva per Hatchery.
If you pay attention to your Injects, you will perform good Injects. However, you will have a harder time thinking strategically during the game. The key to high level play is to enter the game well prepared; knowing how you want to respond to all sensical opponent strategies so that you don’t have to think too much about it in game and instead can focus on your mechanics.
At the same time you mechanics will start to grow into a habit which will release more attention for the strategical part of the game. However, if you’re busy thinking about strategy before your mechanics are well you’ll form bad mechanical habits. Also, the strategical feedback generated from each game will be much more diffuse since you can’t make full use of your strategies.
Sometimes I count seconds in my head while practicing. The information generated by this isn’t really useful, but it forces me to pay attention to my Injects.
5.5 Overlord Theory
If you make Hydralisks or Roaches or Corruptors 1 Larva in 5 will need to be an Overlord, if you make Drones or Zerglings it’s 1 in 9. A perfectly macroed Hatchery generates, on average, 0.167 Larva per game second.
Let’s say you’re massing Roaches off 2 Hatches, which will be a very common scenario. Here you would need to start one Overlord every 15 seconds, which is actually less than the build time of one Overlord so even if you are constantly producing one Overlord it won’t be enough! With 3 Hatches it won’t even be enough to constantly be producing 2 Overlords.
Do not underestimate how many Overlords you will need to make, it’s almost always better to have way too many than to get supply blocked even once.
6.0 Offensive Opportunities
Sometimes it’s worth it to play very aggressive in the early game. For most part I don’t think it is, but sometimes...
6.1 All-In Vs Nexus First
Normally it’s beneficial to do a small Roach poke against these openings but sometimes you can go all-in on either 1 or 2 bases. If you win with this I think its really the Protoss who lost the game and not you who won it, but if you’re desperate it might be worth a shot. I won’t describe how to do this as there’s so many different ways.
6.2 All-In Vs Warpgate Expand
This is an easy win if he makes Stalkers instead of Sentrys, be he should be able to hold it off with sufficient Sentry numbers. Anyways, it worked twice for Ret at MLG so I think it’s worth mentioning: Cut Drones around 25 get some 10 Roaches and pull Drones off gas and switch to mass Zerglings. Don’t get a Lair, use all energy from both Queens on Inject and place your Roaches in the front to soak up damage.
6.3 Baneling Bust On Scrap Station
If you want to Baneling Bust, this is the map. Here’s the BO:
14 Gas
14 Pool
15 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zerglings
20 Baneling Nest (After Scout is chased away)
Get 6 banelings and go for the Zealots then run your Zerglings in. Get the Pylon if he Forcefields his Zealot.
6.4 Roach Poke On Blistering Sands
Having your backdoor broken is a pain in the ass during the midgame for a Protoss player. On this map its often a good idea to get some early Roaches to kill the rocks before the Protoss can defend them, even if you don’t plan to play aggressive in the early game.
I’ve also seen TLO do a 10 Pool and take the rock down with 6 Zerglings before the Protoss could defend it properly. I only think it works if he gets a Sentry first though, and even then it requires some micro as you want to keep your Zerglings diagonal to the Sentry to stay out of its range.
7.0 Replays
Notes: I reworked the opening in a minor update. The orginal replays display the old opening.
Stalker Pressure Into 2 Base 8 Gate All-In vs puckelrygg
Notes: I don’t think his Stalker/Chargelot composition is optimal, mining more Gas and going pure Stalker (with a few Sentrys from early on) feels much stronger. I forgot my upgrades after 2-1. Played this one before I reworked my Roach Warren timing, follow the guide on that. Broke his 20 game win streak xD
Warpgate Expand into Templars vs AiSeiplo
I think I played well overall this game. I've got my doubts about the Templar tech choice though.
Warpgate Expand vs Void
Notes: Now this guy had pretty weak macro so I finished him early. However, I finished the game with 0 energy on my Queen so I’m pretty proud of that. Also, I kinda forgot my gas in the start so it was a little late, but I managed to trap his first Stalker so it didn’t matter.
4 Gate vs ZeroControl
Notes: These are pretty harmless unless you miss a proxy pylon. Kite his Zealots with Roaches before engaging, I suppose I could have saved my first round of Zerglings till after I’d gotten the Zealots.
Zealot/Cannon cheese into 2 Base Blink/Colossi vs Rotterdam
Notes: Mostly here for the cheese. I did overestimate his dedication to the Blink push and should have expanded earlier and resumed my upgrades had I known he was teching Colossi behind it. In the end it worked out well anyway.
Phoenix Into Expand vs YoaM
Notes: Admittedly, this guy ain’t the best one around. His opening is inefficient but I couldn’t find a better Stargate replay at the moment. I was a little sloppy with my Overlords too ;-) Don’t attack head on into his natural unless the game is already over. It’s a finishing move, not a cost efficient one. Made my Evo a little too early, but delayed the Spores so they came out as I described.
I also compiled a pack of MLG replays where Machine, IdrA and Ret play very similar to this. Though they tend prefer their own openings and a few other details differ too.
MLG ZvP Roachstyle Pack
8.0 Afterword
StarCraft is a lot about the small details and you’ll probably have to go through some trial and error to get them right. Don’t give up on a style of play because it doesn’t work the first time. Analyse your mistakes and improve with every game. I keep a log where I write down every reason to every game I lose.
Now, go bash some ugly Protosses!
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Haven't finished reading everything but so far looks like a very nice compilation of the matchup. Great work and thanks!
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You're going to avoid a lot of idiots and attract more readers by pointing out somewhere that you are a 2.3k Zerg on EU. for whatever its worth^^
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Wow, exactly what I am looking for, I struggled with ZvP last weeks. Looks great so far.
Thanks man!
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Interesting read, not in all parts my take on the matchup but with some nice to know facts (although i dont really keep track of ingame or real seconds)
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Awesome guide, this will help my roach/hydra v toss immensely.
I really like the mention of overlord scouting around 4:45, I will start using that in ZvP now.
One part of the guide stood out to me:
On November 19 2010 06:09 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
4.4 Blink Stalkers
Against a Blink Stalker build you can get away with a few more Drones than against a 4 Gate. However, don’t go over 30. Tech to Lair and take a second Extractor as against an expand build. Against this build you want to mass only Speedlings while teching to Infestors. Get the Infestor Energy upgrade and start your Infestors, 2 of them should be enough, when the upgrade is at 30/80. The progress is visible in numbers if you hover the mouse over the progress bar. This will allow you to cast Fungal Growth 14 seconds earlier. One good Fungal is all you need to end the game, Stalkers are useless against Speedlings without Blink.
Even if you don’t scout a Twilight Council there’s a good chance that he’s doing this build if he has a lot of Stalkers early on. If you want to expand you generally want to make a lot of Sentrys as a Stalker/Zealot expand cannot hold Speedling/Roach aggression. Getting Sentrys early also allows him to save up a lot of energy. Hence he’s unlikely to make a lot of Stalkers unless he wants to be aggressive.
I've never seen a zerg go fast pathogen infestor/ling against blink stalkers. Do you have some replays of this? I was under the impression that you needed to get lair -> hydras ASAP against blink stalkers. I've never tried infestors against blink stalkers but I get the feeling that blink stalkers will hit you before the infestors are out (130 game seconds from lair completion until you can get infestors, vs 73 game seconds from lair completion until you can get hydras).
Do you get any spine crawlers vs blink stalkers? What about +1 melee or +1 carapace? Or is it just 2 infestors + pure 0/0 speedling?
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Awesome indeed :D
I just have to say that if you are a swedish player you can find more tips by SieGe and other nice disscusion on www.property-clan.com/forum
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This is epic. Fantastic post, sir.
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2 more questions:
1. Do you ever avoid roach/hydra on certain maps, or just vote down certain maps? For example, I have found that against 2100-2300 opponents, trying roach/hydra on Jungle Basin is just about impossible; there simply isn't any area of the map that permits flanking or fighting in an open area.
2. Do you not scout with a drone before lings are out? I usually do just to spot cannon contain attempts, or 2gate. You said you're not covering 2gate, but do you always use speedlings only against 2gate? I always thought you had to get roaches in order to beat 2 gate CB zealots.
edit: last question. If you scout mid-game and see both stargate and robo, or 2 stargate, then what do you do?
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You mention that it takes 50 game seconds, or 36 real seconds for Larva to spawn at a hatchery from a Queen injection. While the timing does vary between real time and game time, the actual timing is 40 seconds of real time for the 4 Larva to spawn, the "other" 3 Larva spawn at a rate of 1 every 15 seconds.
Edit: I apologize for not including how awesome your post is.
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Great guide, but I'm not sure whether speedling only into infestor beats blink on every map.
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Fantastic guide! One quick question though: in your experience, about how many corruptors do you need vs a given number of Colossi? Do you have any sort of general rule-of-thumb about that?
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can you write one for protoss 
=)
Please?
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i not a zerg player but i will read it and try to understand it, bc i will know better my enemies thanks
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On November 19 2010 06:47 BlasiuS wrote:
2 more questions:
1. Do you ever avoid roach/hydra on certain maps, or just vote down certain maps? For example, I have found that against 2100-2300 opponents, trying roach/hydra on Jungle Basin is just about impossible; there simply isn't any area of the map that permits flanking or fighting in an open area.
2. Do you not scout with a drone before lings are out? I usually do just to spot cannon contain attempts, or 2gate. You said you're not covering 2gate, but do you always use speedlings only against 2gate? I always thought you had to get roaches in order to beat 2 gate CB zealots.
1: God I hate Jungle Basin. I don't think there's anyway to play that map without the Protoss having a clear advantage. I've got it thumbed down so I probably won't learn how to play it in a long while =) In tournaments I cheese on it.
2: You're probably right on that one when I think about it. If he takes your ramp you need Roaches, if he doesn't you'll do fine with Zerglings only. Hasn't played against it in a while so I forgot about the ramp thing. Gonna edit the op.
I either scout my ramp with a Drone slightly before Pool is done to see if it's blocked or place an Overlord there. I don't Drone scout unless it's Shakuras. I wouldn't play the Speedling opening on that map though.
Fantastic guide! One quick question though: in your experience, about how many corruptors do you need vs a given number of Colossi? Do you have any sort of general rule-of-thumb about that?
I normally get around 1.5-2 Corruptors per Colossi. It tends to work very well but I don't know what the optimal ratio actually is.
On November 19 2010 06:51 Xylarthen wrote:
You mention that it takes 50 game seconds, or 36 real seconds for Larva to spawn at a hatchery from a Queen injection. While the timing does vary between real time and game time, the actual timing is 40 seconds of real time for the 4 Larva to spawn, the "other" 3 Larva spawn at a rate of 1 every 15 seconds.
Edit: I apologize for not including how awesome your post is.
Absolutely correct. My apologies.
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Awesome guide, I love it!
Please do a ZvZ guide!
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I play Protoss, but this Chart u made, legen...... dary! Just hope not many Zerg reading this post. So some Protoss TL Staff should close this one pretty fast ! 
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After lurking on TL since beta, I have finally decided to make an account, to say:
Thanks, sweet guide! It is really helping my understanding of unit composition, timing, tech and macro.
I started using zerg 2 weeks ago and I am improving my general mechanics but often get a sense of "Yes i should be injecting larvae and scouting, but where should I actually be taking this game? What should I be building and when?".
Would you consider writing one for ZvT and ZvZ?
Wooo first post!
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You sir are a gentlemen. <3
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very well-written guide, great work!
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United States313 Posts
Amazing job, enjoyed every bit of it, despite how much harder it'll make ladder in the near future. Great work =)
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Awesome guide from my impressions of it! I still haven't got around to try it though, sorry.
To people on TeamLiquid: Listen to this guy, he is not only an awesome player but has great game understanding aswell. Of course there might be some flaw or someone who would critizise the analysis from one point of view or another, but I doubt it is way off. There're always different opinions though, and people will have to try and understand for themselves.
To "Zerg-LegenD": I like your TL nickname, haha! And I look forward to see the guide analyzed from more points of view. Oh, and thanks for all the random advice us zergs in Property Clan get occasionally, they really help in the long run.
I may return after I've done some testing.
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Holy shit yes... Your 3 hatch muta guide helped me so much when I first started learning BW. The skill gap between us isn't as large this time around but I'm sure this will help me a ton. Thanks!
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This is basically Legendary. More post like this plz.
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I really wish more zergs went gas-pool against me.
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This is a great guide and I would totally give you a blowjob, should you decide to write one on ZvZ since pretty much everyone is clueless on that matchup.
However i don't agree with the speedling opener. It is only favorable on small maps. On big maps I can easily go 13 pool 16 hatch or 14 hatch 14 pool, 2 of the most economic builds that offer solid early defense if i scout early agression. With an early hatch like that i can drone until 30 off of 4 lings and then decide if i want to make units against a 4 gate. A good 4 gate hits at a time where the speedling opener's hatch is too weak for my taste. Since you invest in tech and units so early on the period of time where you can drone until the 1 base all in hits is significantly shorter than if you went for a economical build. Those extra few drones you can afford with f.e. a 14 hatch 14 pool are detrimental to be able to enter mid game with a solid drone count.
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Very nice build, I've already been having problems against Zerg, and I think PvZ is about the hardest matchup now.
This guide is about on par with Plexa's PvZ guide, if not better, good job!
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Very nice post! A very nice write-up, a lot of reasearch time and data exposed in a very understandable way, and the "ZvP for dummies" flow chart is very nice too.
Great work and thx so much, ZvP is my worst MU, i will get a lot of info here 
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Brilliant post sir, quality!
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Really nice guide, I'm gonna use that to correct a few flaws in my ZvP for sure 
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wow! this deserves a spotlight imo!
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Wow, nice guide. You even went and included all the timings and flow-charts. Lots of good info here.
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I read this and cried.
I'm a protoss player
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On November 19 2010 08:43 Kiarip wrote:
I really wish more zergs went gas-pool against me.
ahhh too bad hes euro or else im sure he would be up for the challenge
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Thank you for the guide. I've been having some problems vs Protoss lately, I'm sure this will help.
Your timing information was very helpful, I've never known the protoss timing for things, I just go by feel.
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I am wondering what about going just mass roaches instead roach/hydra?
I know the dps will be lower but you can poke into his 3rd fast, snipe nexus or make fast run by. Also you can trade roaches a lot cause they are cheap and have low build time.
If you have hydras in your army they pretty much just sit or attack, you pretty much can't harass with them.
If he goes mass immortal you can mass mutas cause you should have plenty of gas if you didn't get T3 already.
Anyways excellent guide
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My ZvP is absolutely terrible. I'm definitely going to study up with this guys. I appreciate all of the effort you put towards putting this together.
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Wow, what an epic PvZ/ZvP-coverage lately - this is what guides must look like, everybody who wants to put a [G] into the title, better take a closer look at these two threads.
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Absolutely brilliant, thanks for the guide!
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Wow thanks for the amazing guide!
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On November 19 2010 10:13 ChickenLips wrote:
This is a great guide and I would totally give you a blowjob, should you decide to write one on ZvZ since pretty much everyone is clueless on that matchup.
However i don't agree with the speedling opener. It is only favorable on small maps. On big maps I can easily go 13 pool 16 hatch or 14 hatch 14 pool, 2 of the most economic builds that offer solid early defense if i scout early agression. With an early hatch like that i can drone until 30 off of 4 lings and then decide if i want to make units against a 4 gate. A good 4 gate hits at a time where the speedling opener's hatch is too weak for my taste. Since you invest in tech and units so early on the period of time where you can drone until the 1 base all in hits is significantly shorter than if you went for a economical build. Those extra few drones you can afford with f.e. a 14 hatch 14 pool are detrimental to be able to enter mid game with a solid drone count.
To deal with early stalker harass when you skip speedling openers do you just put down a sunk?
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Very well posted, although I disagree with you on many points of the matchup. However that is to be expected since I'm playing from the toss perspective, and you from the zerg.
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on behalf of all protoss, shame on you!!
its a very nice guide though
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On November 19 2010 19:41 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 10:13 ChickenLips wrote:
This is a great guide and I would totally give you a blowjob, should you decide to write one on ZvZ since pretty much everyone is clueless on that matchup.
However i don't agree with the speedling opener. It is only favorable on small maps. On big maps I can easily go 13 pool 16 hatch or 14 hatch 14 pool, 2 of the most economic builds that offer solid early defense if i scout early agression. With an early hatch like that i can drone until 30 off of 4 lings and then decide if i want to make units against a 4 gate. A good 4 gate hits at a time where the speedling opener's hatch is too weak for my taste. Since you invest in tech and units so early on the period of time where you can drone until the 1 base all in hits is significantly shorter than if you went for a economical build. Those extra few drones you can afford with f.e. a 14 hatch 14 pool are detrimental to be able to enter mid game with a solid drone count. To deal with early stalker harass when you skip speedling openers do you just put down a sunk?
Depending on when I scout the early aggression and how far the creep spread at my natural hatch is (hatch or pool first) I immediately put down a spine crawler while delaying my 2nd queen and then if it was planted in my main walk it down when the creep is ready. This is also more favorable if he just chronoes his first zealot + 2 stalkers at you since the zealot + probe will start attacking your morphing spine if it is in the natural.
With these early pressure builds it's just delaying them with spines and queens until you can get enough lings to chase them away (or kill them if they're stupid) while not forgetting to macro. DO NOT LOSE LINGS OR DRONES. Those are essential. Making too many lings is also equal to losing them since they will be worthless (Counter attacking this early doesnt work unless you go all in with it)
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tyvm for that awesome guide!
that helps my ZvP alot
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Very nice guide. There are some great tricks in there for zerg and some timings as protoss which I can consider and use now. Thanks for the work.
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Awesome guide. People might not be saying it explcitly, but I think the flow chart is the key bit of goodness here. The flow chart is a great way to visualize the strategic path. I think every guide is going to look incomplete without a flow chart from now on
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This is amazing, thanks for the big effort that was obviously put in this!
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Cheers, my ZvP is definitely the weakest atm and as an 1800 rating zerg this still helped me
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Very nice guide, I will definately bookmark this.
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I jizzed when i saw the flowchart. FLOWCHARTS FTW!!!!!!!!!
and i need new pants... and the rest of the guide was great. Awesome timing info
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I don't know that I agree gas/pool is really a great opener for this, but the guide itself is awesome If anything, people being successful at a reasonably high level demonstrates that the opener is probably not as big a deal right now.
Do you ever choose to go with Muta/Ling routes in situations where you're not facing Blink Stalkers?
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I love when I open a [G] thread and it is immediately apparent that it is worthy of the tag. Nice job, I'm still digesting the info but stellar presentation!
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On November 20 2010 01:05 ShadowWolf wrote:I don't know that I agree gas/pool is really a great opener for this, but the guide itself is awesome If anything, people being successful at a reasonably high level demonstrates that the opener is probably not as big a deal right now. Do you ever choose to go with Muta/Ling routes in situations where you're not facing Blink Stalkers?
I did that every game back until 2 weeks ago. When you go Mutalisks there'll be a timing window while Spire morphs where you're extremely week and very likely to die. Spine Crawlers is very uneconomic on most maps since their Naturals are so wide open. However, I still go Mutalisk every now and then on Lost Temple, Shakuras and Metal cross positions.
I don't think Roach defence into Mutalisks is viable, but I don't know for sure so it might be.
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Amazing guide. This is the type of work from the community members that makes TL handsdown the best SC community around.
Should we expect to see a ZvT and ZvZ followup soon?
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this is an excellent guide. You may want to add a note about the korean 4gate since a)it's zealot only and b) the timing is significantly earlier and your 4:45 overlord scout would see it aprox 15 seconds before he starts pushing you.
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On November 20 2010 07:11 my0s wrote:
Amazing guide. This is the type of work from the community members that makes TL handsdown the best SC community around.
Should we expect to see a ZvT and ZvZ followup soon?
I am writing a ZvZ guide at the moment. It's my best match up and I do think I'm one of the best ZvZ players in Europe but it's a very complex matchup and I ain't covering all openings. Only the 2 I feel most comfortable with: 15 Hatch and mass Contaminate. Speedling expand feels like a very solid opening and I wish to learn it in the future but don't expect it in the guide.
I feel kinda lost in ZvT at the moment so don't expect that one, at least not in a while. Since the last patch Terrans have gotten so much better at utilising their race. They just feel monstrously strong right now. Perhaps the coming GSL can enlighten me.
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awesome thread.
i have a problem tho. nexus forge expand builds into nothing but stalker/collosus.
i know there is a timing where i could kill him before he gets production rolling. but i play macro/defend usually and feel like i should be able to play that way and beat this army.
just stalker balls in general are very difficult for me to beat. when the ball gets a decent physical size lings are just a waste of supply. roach/hydra is what i usually have and it gets stomped (HARD when collosus are mixed in).
gah! extremely frustrated atm. someone tell me what i am missing please!
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On November 20 2010 08:32 Vaporized wrote:
awesome thread.
i have a problem tho. nexus forge expand builds into nothing but stalker/collosus.
i know there is a timing where i could kill him before he gets production rolling. but i play macro/defend usually and feel like i should be able to play that way and beat this army.
just stalker balls in general are very difficult for me to beat. when the ball gets a decent physical size lings are just a waste of supply. roach/hydra is what i usually have and it gets stomped (HARD when collosus are mixed in).
gah! extremely frustrated atm. someone tell me what i am missing please!
You might try getting Infestors. Infestors are a very underrated unit in terms of their ability to control space. It's a lot easier to get an advantageous concave when your opponent can't move after-all. I feel like there's a certain point where adding Roaches and/or Hydralisks just isn't helping you anymore. The extras just run around like idiots and then die off when your forces start to dwindle. The other thing to not forget is how powerful Corruptors are against Colossi balls - and to use their special ability.
The most important thing, I've found is your engagement point. Corruptors and Infestors allow you to control the positioning of the fight, which is paramount. It doesn't matter how many roaches or hydralisks you have if he has 4+ colossi going wild on your concave.
On November 20 2010 01:28 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 01:05 ShadowWolf wrote:I don't know that I agree gas/pool is really a great opener for this, but the guide itself is awesome If anything, people being successful at a reasonably high level demonstrates that the opener is probably not as big a deal right now. Do you ever choose to go with Muta/Ling routes in situations where you're not facing Blink Stalkers? I did that every game back until 2 weeks ago. When you go Mutalisks there'll be a timing window while Spire morphs where you're extremely week and very likely to die. Spine Crawlers is very uneconomic on most maps since their Naturals are so wide open. However, I still go Mutalisk every now and then on Lost Temple, Shakuras and Metal cross positions. I don't think Roach defence into Mutalisks is viable, but I don't know for sure so it might be.
I'm still refining my Zerg play, but I definitely was starting to see that Spire window exposed against 1600+ Protoss players. Before that point, it felt like Muta/Ling was basically unstoppable if they didn't kill a lot of drones at the start, but then people started doing the 6 gate sentry/stalker timing push or even sometimes a 3 gate 2 stalker, 1 zealot push can cause a lot of problems. I definitely like the MutaLing strategy on Shakuras and Metal because it's really easy to move around in "unhittable" space. Lost Temple sometimes, too - but I get that 6 gate attack 9/10 times on that map for whatever reason :-\
I'm looking forward to putting this to bear since I tend to struggle a lot vs 2 base Gateway pushes - especially on Xel'Naga. I might roll with the plan of If Early Robo Then MutaLing Else Roach/Hydra.
I've always liked Muta/(B)Ling/Infestor transition in to Ultra/(B)Ling/Infestor. I started having more success when I focused on just delaying and stagnating Terran and less on killing him. I know Day[9] & TLO were talking about that, too, where it's better to just contain rather than attack in a lot of times.
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On November 20 2010 08:18 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 07:11 my0s wrote:
Amazing guide. This is the type of work from the community members that makes TL handsdown the best SC community around.
Should we expect to see a ZvT and ZvZ followup soon? I am writing a ZvZ guide at the moment. It's my best match up and I do think I'm one of the best ZvZ players in Europe but it's a very complex matchup and I ain't covering all openings. Only the 2 I feel most comfortable with: 15 Hatch and mass Contaminate. Speedling expand feels like a very solid opening and I wish to learn it in the future but don't expect it in the guide. I feel kinda lost in ZvT at the moment so don't expect that one, at least not in a while. Since the last patch Terrans have gotten so much better at utilising their race. They just feel monstrously strong right now. Perhaps the coming GSL can enlighten me.
Writing that ZvZ guide would make you a super mega giga baller. As for ZvT, there exists a variety of styles currently in Korea. IdrA insists on using sling/bling/muta and he just crushes faces left and right with his monstruous ZvT. For reference you can watch his MLG rep pack where he won the entire thing.
The other that the koreans are doing is roach + X where X usually consists of mainly either mutas or banelings. NesTea prefers going heavier on the mutas whereas FruitDealer likes banelings more but also gets around 5 mutas in mid game just to be able to fend off drops and to gain map control
As of now, I think ZvT is the easier matchup for Zerg and most pros agree. Just speedlings alone rape a plethora of Terran units cost for cost. Add to that blings or infestors or mutas and you've got yourself a winning combo
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Very nice guide, I am definitely going to incorporate those timings into my play.
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On November 20 2010 08:59 ShadowWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 08:32 Vaporized wrote:
awesome thread.
i have a problem tho. nexus forge expand builds into nothing but stalker/collosus.
i know there is a timing where i could kill him before he gets production rolling. but i play macro/defend usually and feel like i should be able to play that way and beat this army.
just stalker balls in general are very difficult for me to beat. when the ball gets a decent physical size lings are just a waste of supply. roach/hydra is what i usually have and it gets stomped (HARD when collosus are mixed in).
gah! extremely frustrated atm. someone tell me what i am missing please! You might try getting Infestors. Infestors are a very underrated unit in terms of their ability to control space. It's a lot easier to get an advantageous concave when your opponent can't move after-all. I feel like there's a certain point where adding Roaches and/or Hydralisks just isn't helping you anymore. The extras just run around like idiots and then die off when your forces start to dwindle. The other thing to not forget is how powerful Corruptors are against Colossi balls - and to use their special ability. The most important thing, I've found is your engagement point. Corruptors and Infestors allow you to control the positioning of the fight, which is paramount. It doesn't matter how many roaches or hydralisks you have if he has 4+ colossi going wild on your concave.
thanks for the response!
if other people can beat this style of play using roach/hydra/corrupter then i guess i am doing it wrong. i try to get the fight where spines are hitting. maybe i need to move out and meet him halfway and not worry about spines.
what is a good drone number to stop at (approx. of course)? i try to be on at least 3 bases asap when i see a toss FE, and a 4th soon after. maybe drone til 8-9 minutes and then start pumping units as much as possible?
another thing i am unsure about is how many corrupters to get. most toss push when they have 4+ collosus. how many corrupters do u make to fight that and still have a good enough ground army to kill the stalkers?
its probably half in my head at this point. when i see that huge stalker ball moving forward i think i just give up.
edit: gonna watch the replay in the first post where he defends zealot/cannon cheese into blink/collosus. that is what i am talking about.
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I just watched FruitDealers games from the GSL prelims and I noticed 3 things.
1: FD used the Speedling opening in all 3 games. It is the best opening when you think you're the better player in the mid- and late game. If you don't think you are, then I agree that you're probably better off with a more Larva heavy opening in most situations.
2: In the Xel'Naga game he delayed Lair and did a 2 base 5 Roach push and managed to kill all the Protoss' Sentrys. However, the did a weird 3 Hatch follow up and lost to a 6 Gate. This might have potential.
3: In the Metalopolis game he played just like I described, but researched burrow. And man, he absolutely demolished that 8:30 min push. Burrow is awesome against Forcefield and if he has enough units to put pressure on you he won't have observers yet. I can really recommend Burrow if you suspect he will throw a hellish 8:30-10 min push at you.
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Best post I've ever read entirely...
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One of the best guides I've seen. Very informative and extremely well put together. Good job!
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Very interesting guide, the best part of it is its extremely detailed. <3
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Thank you so much for this!
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awesome job haven't finished it yet but its really going to help me with transitions in mid and late Game once again great job
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I notice that the date of this guide just happens to coincide with a noticeable increase in the exact builds described here. I was wondering why all those zergs suddenly started going roach/hydra.
And it had to come just as was getting really good at dealing with mutaling : (
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On November 20 2010 10:03 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
1: FD used the Speedling opening in all 3 games. It is the best opening when you think you're the better player in the mid- and late game.
I dont know if i'm a better player in mid-late game or not. can you elaborate?
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Please delete this, Plexa :p
but great guide, laddering against z will be even more annoying than usual in the next couple of weeks
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This is spectacular. This should be in Liquipedia. Thanks.
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Thank you very much for this!
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Great guide. As a Protoss player, I more-or-less agree with 100% of your proposed build counters. No Zerg should ever lose a PvZ again.
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As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.
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kcdc has a point, but only if the Zerg overcommits to hydra. In a large army, with a 2:1 ratio of roaches:hydras, I think the hydras are nothing but helpful, especially if kept in the rear of the army. They make any charging zealots utterly melt and also utterly useless.
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I think this guide is a very good base for someone learning ZvP. I personally like the section with the timings of certain attacks, as this is something i wanted to do research myself on, which i can now skip
One thing i noticed immidiately though: in your 2-3 gate -> Expand branch, against the 6 gate low econ push i think it is definitely better to get burrow immidiately once lair is done, and then get roach speed next, skipping the +1 ranged attack completly, as this will probably not get done before the push arrives at your natural. Also, burrow is very good for saving your roaches if they get split by forcefields - and this kind of push has alot of forcefields, because the P usually expand and gets like 7-8 sentries which will have almost all full energy when he pushes out.
I will read the whole guide tomorrow and maybe ill find some more things with which i can help, but on the first glance most of it seems very solid.
edit: One thing im missing on the second look is any kind of muta/ling play. going purely roach hydra every game does get absolutely stomped by collossi pushes :/
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On November 21 2010 08:22 kcdc wrote:
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.
Hm. I actually had to think about that post for a minute before formulating my response, something that doesn't happen too often as there's unfortunately mostly idiots wandering these forums.
As a Z player, I love Mutas. I love their mobility and that they can move anywhere and shoot anything. However since Blizzard didn't want to make Z win 100% of their games they gave it absolutely shitty DPS for their 100 gas cost. Which is ok from a balance standpoint but seeing mutas actually fight other GtA units makes me cringe every single timesince it's always a highly cost-inefficient battle for the Z.
I think that a stalker/sentry/immortal composition has absolutely no trouble against pure roach and even less against roach/muta since the muta production cuts heavily into much-needed upgrades (2/2 roaches are actually good lol) and further tech.
For mutas to actually do something in battle you need critical mass, which is around 16 mutas. No way in hell a Z is gonna be able to get out 16 mutas + roaches to defend constant pressure. It might be possible on 6-8 geysers but on 4 it strikes me as incredibly weak and flimsy.
One game comes to mind where Z wanted to go Roach Muta which was NexGenius vs NesTea. You can see NesTea putting down a spire (not wanting to counter colossus) but then due to immense gateway pressure from Genius he decides to opt for pure roach instead since mutas don't fare too well in low numbers.
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I love this post; great work!!
(your usage of "ain't" annoyed me a little bit though)
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great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??
edit i guess the answer is macro up and just rebuild army after stomrs?
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On November 21 2010 13:36 kinkosky wrote:
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??
Muta to snipe works well. Or just go super roach heavy + burrow, they tank storm pretty well.
At least this is what I like to do.
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i've been seeing some hydra rushes lately. When if ever is this good, when is it bad, and how should a protoss resond to it?
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Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).
All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.
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nice guide, liquipedia worthy
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Realy nice work. Just what i needed.
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On November 21 2010 15:24 DaemonX wrote:
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).
All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.
That's a typo actually, thanks for catching it. The Hallucination timing was also way off.
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People like you make TL great LegenD! Keep it up, and thanks for the guide!
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I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!
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On November 22 2010 00:46 MobiusOne wrote:
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!
you mean 2 gate opening with delayed cyber? as soon as u scout those going down start your own roach warren. when the zealots arrive your roaches will be seconds away from popping. 2 gate is ridiculously awful if scouted.
i like to research ling speed and attack with my roaches i build for defense and rallied slings after driving him away.
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Excellent guide good sir, I commend you and send all my slimy Zerg loving to your esteemed person.
As mentioned above, however, your use of "I ain't" instead of "I'm not" was annoying, not to be the grammar police or anything. Do what you will, but be warned that it makes you sound like a hillbilly from the Deep South (which you obviously are not, having written such an awesome guide - and also being Swedish lol).
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Great read, and extremely well laid-out
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Absolutely fantastic post
Ive been having hard time against 2 stargate protoss all the time
The opponent will either open up with 1 zealot 2 stalker push or 1 zealot 2 sentries wall-in and goes 2 stargates and go mass phoenixes
Im either caught completely off guard or not enough AA to counter this
When his 3 initial phoenixes come to my base I will have droned up quite hard with only 2 queens to defend with evo chamber up and spore maybe just starting to go up
The opponent will usually pick off 2-3 drones and leave
and come back with about 6 phoenixes and kill 1 of my queens + 2-3 more drones and back out
the next time he comes back I will have my hydra den up and about 5-7 hydras up but he has about 10 phoenixes and picks off hydras and more drones and more queens that has popped up
and by the time I finally defend against pheonixes his ground army will usually dominate my army and finish the game I need serious help against 2 stargate build
I feel as if I just focus to counter that 2 stargate build I wont be able to defend against other strong all-in ish builds
And I tried to sacrifice my overlord around 4:40 mark but his stalker picks my ovie b4 I could scout his 2 stargates in the back of his base
btw I play mostly on metalopolis or xelnaga caverns
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I was having a lot of trouble with double stargate play too recently. Try cranking out those extra queens once you've either seen, scouted, or suspected stargate play. It'll save your life. It's also helpful to drop the evo and get a supporting spore (I see that you did get one.. but w/o a replay it's hard to say anything about timing). Just don't be too afraid of defending with as little as you can and don't forget to transfuse (you can transfuse the queen that's lifted)! Good creep spread gives you the vision and speed you need to fend off before you can defend with better anti-air. Sorry if the response is a bit vague, it's hard without a replay so it really boils down to queens, persistent scouting and some cute micro. I will say though, with regards to your ovi scout, you can also run a ling up and down his ramp. That kind of passive sentry FF play / aggressive scout deny should tip you off to teching immediately. Don't know if that was helpful?
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Very cool and informative post. I like how in detail you go into your standard opening as well as your drone timing and tech decisions based on your scouting. Unfortunately I haven't had time to read the entire thing just yet but I did notice that the ever so popular 7 - 8 Roach push is missing from this guide. This is a strat that seems to be quite popular vs. Protoss players right now and I've had a pretty good amount of success with it myself. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that strat and if there's a particular reason you don't outline it here.
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It's a really weak build against most competent toss players for a few reasons:
It is not an economy-centric build, meaning if your rush is shut down, you are not on a great footing as you had to cut drone production to crank out those roaches (not to mention, with most variants of 7RR, a lot of players spend all their resources on those units so unlike 5RR, you can't really open into an expansion very quickly upon pushing out). You'll notice, it doesn't take more than sentry/stalker to shut down this push. In which case, it is worth mentioning that most sub-diamond / plat players are using this strategy as a "fast-laddering" strategy and overcommiting to the push when it is evident they are being shut down. If you can't get up the ramp no matter how hard you try, save your units and economy up (hard as it may be with 7RR, but that's the weakness of the build)
You would be better off with 5RR+Speedlings if you are even considering this type of early pressure but I believe the point of this post is to establish a fairly solid, stable eco-opening for zerg and detailing logical progressions based on active scouting.
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On November 23 2010 00:37 d_wAy wrote:
It's a really weak build against most competent toss players for a few reasons:
It is not an economy-centric build, meaning if your rush is shut down, you are not on a great footing as you had to cut drone production to crank out those roaches (not to mention, with most variants of 7RR, a lot of players spend all their resources on those units so unlike 5RR, you can't really open into an expansion very quickly upon pushing out). You'll notice, it doesn't take more than sentry/stalker to shut down this push. In which case, it is worth mentioning that most sub-diamond / plat players are using this strategy as a "fast-laddering" strategy and overcommiting to the push when it is evident they are being shut down. If you can't get up the ramp no matter how hard you try, save your units and economy up (hard as it may be with 7RR, but that's the weakness of the build)
You would be better off with 5RR+Speedlings if you are even considering this type of early pressure but I believe the point of this post is to establish a fairly solid, stable eco-opening for zerg and detailing logical progressions based on active scouting.
Well obviously every build has weaknesses but I thought the point of the 7RR was to put on early pressure while expanding behind it. Obviously you cut some drones initially while getting out the Roaches but my take on the build was that it's used to keep your opponent in his one base and playing defensively while you get stable economically, not necessarily as a kill move. Sometimes it has worked out that way for me (I'm mid Diamond by the way and for some reason am playing against 2k+ Diamond players) but usually it's just a way of expanding and feeling safe about it.
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Russian Federation266 Posts
Such late expo timing and 6 lings is sure super safe, but its bad against ANY protoss opening play. If you want to be safe just go for 12 scout 14 pool 14 hatch, and make a roach warren instead of the hatch if you see super agression.
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My protoss friend has a very macro oriented style, because he played zerg for quite a while until they were buffed. I just cant seem to win. If i try to out macro him, and get greedy, a well executed timing push with upgrades finishing will annihilate me. If i make hydras his composition with shift toward mass sentry and stalker, and near perfect forcefields dominate my army, forcing me to reinforce heavily where i get out-macroed. If i go roaches to mitigate FF effects then he pumps out enough immortals and FF's me anyway. I just cant seem to figure out why i'm losing so badly. His play is very solid. Am i losing due to weak micro, macro or just bad decisioning. I cant seem to figure it out. How should
this ZvP be handled?
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169540
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=169537
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What do you do against a protoss who goes warpgate expand into two stargate phoenix/voidrays and then transitions into collossi if you make hydras?
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Totally awesome post, this helped me out a lot.
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Just re-bumping this because there have been quite a few ZvP related question threads in the past few days and any of those thread starters can learn a lot by reading the OP.
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Just wanted to say that i really really really love this guide... totally awesome, thank you!
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You sir, are truly epic. So much time spent to help the community. Thnx.
No mutas in this guide at all? Muta/Ling when done properly is deadly.
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Wow, this is an amazing guide, thanks a lot!
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Great guide and well written! ty so much ! pvz seems so hard atm =(
but still got problems around that 20 minute mark!
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On November 19 2010 06:32 ChickenLips wrote:
You're going to avoid a lot of idiots and attract more readers by pointing out somewhere that you are a 2.3k Zerg on EU. for whatever its worth^^
tbh, every reasonable person doesn't give a shit about such info. the quality of content is more important.
and this guy is a bit known, also has done an excellent job this time
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When did I say it's unbeatable?
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Oh right, sorry, my bad. Read through your post and thought this was the title. "http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/eooh0/unbeatable_speedray_pvz_use_it_while_it_lasts/" Sorry.
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Omg wow amazing guide ! good work and thanks for making this! awesome flow chart
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On December 21 2010 02:07 freestalker wrote:
tbh, every reasonable person doesn't give a shit about such info.
So you're confident taking advice from Silver players?
Thanks for the guide OP -- lots of solid info here. ZvP is so dynamic now what with the skytoss trends. Loving it.
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this is so helpful as zvp is one of my worst matchups.
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Great work and effort to the community, although it would be literally insane if u did one of these for all 9 matchups, but that would be freaking amazing.
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use infesters to fungal growth and then out range them with mass queen
but they are patching it so it doesnt really matter
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Got a question about the quick +1 attack. If I see the protoss chrono boosting out his forge, should I still go for the +1 attack or go for the +1 armor to even out his attack upgrade?
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Awesome guide. Can't wait to read your ZvZ
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The first thing you need to do is notice that he is doing the build. When combining an expansion with Stargate tech they will have less units that normally and thus you won't really be able to do much pushing (which allows you to Drone and tech hard), they will also be more inclined to get Cannons and perhaps most importantly they will get their Assimilators much earlier in their natural.
With a normal Warpgate/Robo based build they normally delay their Assimilators for a while. I don't know exactly when you normally take them but I don't think it's before 10 minutes, on the other hand the Void Ray/Colossi build requires you to take them right of the bat when the Nexus completes. So sacrifice Zerglings into his natural to keep tabs on his army count and his Assimilator timing do learn that he's up to some tech heavy build.
Now, when you know he's going to be teching rather than pushing, get a Spire right away and also try to scout what tech he's getting with an Overseer. If it's Stargate, get +1 Air Attack and an Infestation Pit and Mutalisks and expand as much as you possibly can. Get ~2 Infestors, if he goes out to harass you'll Fungal his army and smash it. When you have Infestors he pretty much cannot leave his base with an air based army so he will turtle and throw everything on one limit fight.
Here's some pointers for winning the last battle:
- Get dual Spires as soon as possible and upgrade both Air Attack and Air Armor.
- Remove all Observers from your army and try to keep your Mutalisk/Corruptor ratio hidden while sacrificing Mutalisks or Overlords or Zerglings to find out his Phoenix/Void Ray ratio.
- Suicide all ground units to free up supply.
- Build a lot of Spore Crawlers in locations you cannot afford to lose, like your main and expansions with a lot of Minerals/Gas remainin.
- Use the "Extractor Trick" with Spine Crawlers to go beyond the 200 supply limit without sacrificing your Drones.
- Try to separate his army into two halves with Fungal Growth and fight them one at a time.
- Use Corruption.
- If he uses Vortex, run your whole army into it so that he won't get to fight one half at a time.
- Get an extra hidden Spire somewhere on the map so you can keep making units even if he wins the first battle and snipes your initial Spires.
Here's a replay against ZeeRaX, he's a 3.1k Diamond Protoss from an S-class division and has been using that playstyle since September, at least, and I think he's the original inventor of the playstyle. So he should be pretty good with it.
Some notes though, I upgraded my ground units too so that I would be able to remake a Hydralisk army should I lose my air one. I don't think that is necessary though and will probably only slow you down. Also, I think high level Protosses are blind countering the Roach opening too heavily nowadays so I've started opening Muta/Ling on all maps which means I was prepared for this tech path right from the start.
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Wow didn't expect that huge of a response. Thank you for taking your time to write such an in-depth reply. Can't wait for the ZvZ guide.
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In the chartflow thing, you said that if I see a 4gate or robo, I should get +1 atk, do you mean +1 range atk or +1 melee atk or both? Also, if P gets +1 ground attack, then I think it should be worth mentioning to get armor upgrade so zealots will still take 3 hits to kill a zergling instead of 2.
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On December 23 2010 09:57 nariga wrote:
In the chartflow thing, you said that if I see a 4gate or robo, I should get +1 atk, do you mean +1 range atk or +1 melee atk or both? Also, if P gets +1 ground attack, then I think it should be worth mentioning to get armor upgrade so zealots will still take 3 hits to kill a zergling instead of 2.
The flowchart is wrong on the upgrades. I forgot to update it with the latest revision.
You won't be making Zerglings with this playstyle, so that breakpoint is not important. And you obviously won't be upgrading Zergling attack either.
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By the way, why only have 1 evo so late in the game? I usually have 2 for atk + armor at the same time and 3 evos for the strat I'm going to talk about here. Have you read this ovi dropping banelings strat? I have tried it and it's extremely effective (2.2k diamond ladder), especially in a 200 vs 200 army because the banelings are so supply efficient. But if possible, maybe you can try it and propose a BO/more in-depth strategy guide for it because right now, I have no idea when to get the ventral sac + ovi speed + banelings nest (right now, I just get it when I have a lot excess resources, which might not be the best timing). Thx. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167126
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Why aren't there any guides telling how Protoss should play macro ......
There are everywhere Terran and Zerg guides ( as if terran need's guides for MMM with vikings and ghosts lol ) . Though I wonder if there is any good Protoss guide that describes the safest protoss build order .
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Against a protoss going for a nexus first, when do you take your third base? I've found that on some maps you can take an immediate third base before you have any combat forces. I don't know if it's really viable though, as most toss players seem unused to the transition from defensive posture (for the 15 nexus) and aggressive (you're on 3 bases)
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On December 23 2010 10:27 metalsonic wrote:
Why aren't there any guides telling how Protoss should play macro ......
There are everywhere Terran and Zerg guides ( as if terran need's guides for MMM with vikings and ghosts lol ) . Though I wonder if there is any good Protoss guide that describes the safest protoss build order .
Yeah, this!
Plexa's guide is the closest thing, but it is kind of showing its age now.
I haven't seen any flowcharts like this for P, however.
To the OP: Well done!
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I don't see any flowchart for Mutaling
Why don't you love mutaliing?
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Happy Birthday.
I noticed that JulyZerg opens in the exact same way, speed, then drones off gas and taking the natural at 21 supply.
Is there any time when you basically would suggest putting the drones back on gas? Like when expansion half way done or something like that? I know it depends on the situation, but I often feel rather clueless when to put them back on gas..
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I alwayls put them back on gas when the Hatch and the 2nd Queen are building. Next priority is Lair, so get the dudes back in
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Amazing job on the guide mate, I'm sure you spent a lot of time on it and i appreciate that! coming from a Protoss player! thanks!.
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Seriously thanks for this, this is what we need, more elaborate and comprehensive guides to match ups, this is the stuff we're missing from BW :D.
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thanks
protoss are still the bane of my existance however
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Hey great guide, thanks for spending the time to put all of this information out there. I was wondering about one thing though, I recently have been watching Machine's coaching lessons on ZvP vs 4-6 gate and I was wondering why you dont have anything on the guide about speed/burrow roaches. They absolutely dominate gateway units without robo, although they might be a little late for the 4 gate, but I've seen a lot of P doing FE into 6 gate. What do you think about all of that?
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This is the amazing thing about Zerg players, although they have uch a reputation for whining and moaning due to the emotional investment in every game they play... The Zerg community comes together and does this sort of thing. Its so nice to see .
Keep it up, one per match-up :D.. This sort of thing + the Lessons on MrBitters Stream can do an awful lot of good for a lot of people.
Great post.
Fucking fantastic :D
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On December 29 2010 01:17 ProtossGirl wrote:This is the amazing thing about Zerg players, although they have uch a reputation for whining and moaning due to the emotional investment in every game they play... The Zerg community comes together and does this sort of thing. Its so nice to see . Keep it up, one per match-up :D.. This sort of thing + the Lessons on MrBitters Stream can do an awful lot of good for a lot of people. Great post. Fucking fantastic :D
Well if you get raped in the ass pretty much 24/7 you gotta stick together.
+ Show Spoiler +It's a fantasic guide though, I agree.
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Most Protoss tech buildings are started around 4:30, sacrifice an Overlord at 4:45
This is the most awesome part about this whole thread.
This is why I win way more ZvPs than I did before.
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do you scout before your lings? i just had a game where my 13 drone scouted a 2gate in close positions at metalopolis and i dont think i could hold it off if i didnt scout it.
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On December 22 2010 23:00 ZerG~LegenD wrote:The first thing you need to do is notice that he is doing the build. When combining an expansion with Stargate tech they will have less units that normally and thus you won't really be able to do much pushing (which allows you to Drone and tech hard), they will also be more inclined to get Cannons and perhaps most importantly they will get their Assimilators much earlier in their natural. With a normal Warpgate/Robo based build they normally delay their Assimilators for a while. I don't know exactly when you normally take them but I don't think it's before 10 minutes, on the other hand the Void Ray/Colossi build requires you to take them right of the bat when the Nexus completes. So sacrifice Zerglings into his natural to keep tabs on his army count and his Assimilator timing do learn that he's up to some tech heavy build. Now, when you know he's going to be teching rather than pushing, get a Spire right away and also try to scout what tech he's getting with an Overseer. If it's Stargate, get +1 Air Attack and an Infestation Pit and Mutalisks and expand as much as you possibly can. Get ~2 Infestors, if he goes out to harass you'll Fungal his army and smash it. When you have Infestors he pretty much cannot leave his base with an air based army so he will turtle and throw everything on one limit fight. Here's some pointers for winning the last battle: - Get dual Spires as soon as possible and upgrade both Air Attack and Air Armor.
- Remove all Observers from your army and try to keep your Mutalisk/Corruptor ratio hidden while sacrificing Mutalisks or Overlords or Zerglings to find out his Phoenix/Void Ray ratio.
- Suicide all ground units to free up supply.
- Build a lot of Spore Crawlers in locations you cannot afford to lose, like your main and expansions with a lot of Minerals/Gas remainin.
- Use the "Extractor Trick" with Spine Crawlers to go beyond the 200 supply limit without sacrificing your Drones.
- Try to separate his army into two halves with Fungal Growth and fight them one at a time.
- Use Corruption.
- If he uses Vortex, run your whole army into it so that he won't get to fight one half at a time.
- Get an extra hidden Spire somewhere on the map so you can keep making units even if he wins the first battle and snipes your initial Spires.
Here's a replay against ZeeRaX, he's a 3.1k Diamond Protoss from an S-class division and has been using that playstyle since September, at least, and I think he's the original inventor of the playstyle. So he should be pretty good with it. Some notes though, I upgraded my ground units too so that I would be able to remake a Hydralisk army should I lose my air one. I don't think that is necessary though and will probably only slow you down. Also, I think high level Protosses are blind countering the Roach opening too heavily nowadays so I've started opening Muta/Ling on all maps which means I was prepared for this tech path right from the start.
Hey, thanks for making this post. It's pretty cool that you found a way to beat my strat, so I'll make sure to update my guide to say that sniping any upgrading spires is essential.
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Very nice thanks! I really like the flow chart.
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gotta say, I love that flow chart
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This is bloody brilliant! Been having a lot of trouble with this mu lately, lots of good info to help me stay on top of things!
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Wish there was someone that did this but reversed like PvZ...
Nontheless absolute brilliant guide!
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Very nice ^_^ Thankyou for the information
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Switched from terran to zerg recently. This has been so much help. Ty ty
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Very Well done, I really appreciate how you incorporated all the approximate timings, as well as how they fare relative to the zerg/protoss point of view.
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Such an unbelievable amount of help. This is far and away my hardest matchup, and you made it that much easier. Thanks!
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lately i saw a few replays of ZvP with non gas fastexpansion openings. Is this a good idea? Or do you stick to the speedling expand in every match?
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Wow, the amount of research is amazing
May print this
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Question from a protoss player! Why ling scout but no drone scout? As a P player I can't count the number of wins I've gotten because a zerg doesn't drone scout me. There's a lot of info I don't want you to see that you can't get with a ling. Be it what I'm chronoing, gas count, or mah cheddah.
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On November 19 2010 07:27 Zorkmid wrote:
Awesome guide, I love it!
Please do a ZvZ guide!
see roaches? > make some roaches
sums up ZvZ
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Ok, I've gotta say, I recently switched to Z from T.
This is almost identical to how I play (and I did not see this before I switched)..... Even the opening build order..... I put a little less emphasis on the hydras and more emphasis on extra queens and dual evos for upgrades though..... But the same ideas are present.
Awesome stuff! I'm glad that my plan works!
On January 29 2011 08:54 Jacobs Ladder wrote:
Question from a protoss player! Why ling scout but no drone scout? As a P player I can't count the number of wins I've gotten because a zerg doesn't drone scout me. There's a lot of info I don't want you to see that you can't get with a ling. Be it what I'm chronoing, gas count, or mah cheddah.
The worst case scenario that a P can do against you is still relatively easy to deal with out of the speedling opening. The only major deviations will happen either as we see them (with the initial lings and 3rd ovie), or with the scouting overlord at the 4:45 mark. There's absolutely no need to scout earlier than that.
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this is a great post and i hope you can do a ZvZ one! (:
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i didnt read all the guide yet but id like to say tnx cus the timings u written will help me to refine builds so much!!!!! thanx dude u doing a big favor for all zerg out there who are struggeling with understanding when they can do what they want
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EPT
