• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:14
CEST 15:14
KST 22:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun9[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists21[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) WardiTV Spring Cup RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
[TOOL] Starcraft Chat Translator ASL21 General Discussion JaeDong's ASL S21 Ro16 Post-Review Missed out on ASL tickets - what are my options? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Korean KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2199 users

[G] The Art Of ZvP 2 - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
sick_transit
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States195 Posts
November 20 2010 18:36 GMT
#81
This is spectacular. This should be in Liquipedia. Thanks.
War is a drug.
nesf
Profile Joined November 2010
Ireland20 Posts
November 20 2010 20:21 GMT
#82
Thank you very much for this!
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:18 GMT
#83
Great guide. As a Protoss player, I more-or-less agree with 100% of your proposed build counters. No Zerg should ever lose a PvZ again.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
November 20 2010 23:22 GMT
#84
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:28 GMT
#85
kcdc has a point, but only if the Zerg overcommits to hydra. In a large army, with a 2:1 ratio of roaches:hydras, I think the hydras are nothing but helpful, especially if kept in the rear of the army. They make any charging zealots utterly melt and also utterly useless.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:39:16
November 20 2010 23:36 GMT
#86
I think this guide is a very good base for someone learning ZvP. I personally like the section with the timings of certain attacks, as this is something i wanted to do research myself on, which i can now skip

One thing i noticed immidiately though: in your 2-3 gate -> Expand branch, against the 6 gate low econ push i think it is definitely better to get burrow immidiately once lair is done, and then get roach speed next, skipping the +1 ranged attack completly, as this will probably not get done before the push arrives at your natural. Also, burrow is very good for saving your roaches if they get split by forcefields - and this kind of push has alot of forcefields, because the P usually expand and gets like 7-8 sentries which will have almost all full energy when he pushes out.

I will read the whole guide tomorrow and maybe ill find some more things with which i can help, but on the first glance most of it seems very solid.

edit: One thing im missing on the second look is any kind of muta/ling play. going purely roach hydra every game does get absolutely stomped by collossi pushes :/
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:48:13
November 20 2010 23:40 GMT
#87
On November 21 2010 08:22 kcdc wrote:
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.


Hm. I actually had to think about that post for a minute before formulating my response, something that doesn't happen too often as there's unfortunately mostly idiots wandering these forums.

As a Z player, I love Mutas. I love their mobility and that they can move anywhere and shoot anything. However since Blizzard didn't want to make Z win 100% of their games they gave it absolutely shitty DPS for their 100 gas cost. Which is ok from a balance standpoint but seeing mutas actually fight other GtA units makes me cringe every single timesince it's always a highly cost-inefficient battle for the Z.

I think that a stalker/sentry/immortal composition has absolutely no trouble against pure roach and even less against roach/muta since the muta production cuts heavily into much-needed upgrades (2/2 roaches are actually good lol) and further tech.
For mutas to actually do something in battle you need critical mass, which is around 16 mutas. No way in hell a Z is gonna be able to get out 16 mutas + roaches to defend constant pressure. It might be possible on 6-8 geysers but on 4 it strikes me as incredibly weak and flimsy.



One game comes to mind where Z wanted to go Roach Muta which was NexGenius vs NesTea. You can see NesTea putting down a spire (not wanting to counter colossus) but then due to immense gateway pressure from Genius he decides to opt for pure roach instead since mutas don't fare too well in low numbers.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
hellblau
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany13 Posts
November 21 2010 00:41 GMT
#88
I love this post; great work!!
(your usage of "ain't" annoyed me a little bit though)
kinkosky
Profile Joined November 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 04:43:22
November 21 2010 04:36 GMT
#89
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

edit i guess the answer is macro up and just rebuild army after stomrs?
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
November 21 2010 04:43 GMT
#90
On November 21 2010 13:36 kinkosky wrote:
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

Muta to snipe works well. Or just go super roach heavy + burrow, they tank storm pretty well.

At least this is what I like to do.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
November 21 2010 06:14 GMT
#91
i've been seeing some hydra rushes lately. When if ever is this good, when is it bad, and how should a protoss resond to it?
DaemonX
Profile Joined September 2010
545 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 06:25:27
November 21 2010 06:24 GMT
#92
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
November 21 2010 06:48 GMT
#93
Thank you very much!!!
What qxc said.
OrcaMOrciM
Profile Joined August 2010
4 Posts
November 21 2010 11:31 GMT
#94
nice guide, liquipedia worthy
Exawn
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands13 Posts
November 21 2010 11:40 GMT
#95
Realy nice work. Just what i needed.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
November 21 2010 11:53 GMT
#96
On November 21 2010 15:24 DaemonX wrote:
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.

That's a typo actually, thanks for catching it. The Hallucination timing was also way off.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
November 21 2010 12:36 GMT
#97
Super awesome, thanks!
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
November 21 2010 12:48 GMT
#98
People like you make TL great LegenD! Keep it up, and thanks for the guide!
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
November 21 2010 15:46 GMT
#99
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
November 21 2010 18:19 GMT
#100
On November 22 2010 00:46 MobiusOne wrote:
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!

you mean 2 gate opening with delayed cyber? as soon as u scout those going down start your own roach warren. when the zealots arrive your roaches will be seconds away from popping. 2 gate is ridiculously awful if scouted.

i like to research ling speed and attack with my roaches i build for defense and rallied slings after driving him away.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Gabe
12:00
Big Gabe Open #1
mouzHeroMarine569
IndyStarCraft 131
TKL 54
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 569
Ryung 304
IndyStarCraft 137
TKL 54
herO (SOOP) 33
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 6076
Jaedong 2559
Sea 2331
GuemChi 1182
HiyA 733
EffOrt 634
Soma 513
Hyuk 491
Stork 388
Light 362
[ Show more ]
Snow 351
actioN 263
ggaemo 261
ZerO 220
Zeus 191
Rush 178
Last 176
Soulkey 169
Mini 161
ToSsGirL 150
Larva 144
firebathero 128
hero 81
Pusan 70
Sharp 59
sSak 52
sorry 36
Barracks 33
Backho 33
yabsab 26
Bale 24
Terrorterran 24
Shinee 23
Sacsri 23
Shine 22
Free 21
Sexy 20
scan(afreeca) 19
Noble 16
Movie 15
IntoTheRainbow 14
soO 13
GoRush 9
Dota 2
XaKoH 451
ODPixel132
BananaSlamJamma94
Counter-Strike
olofmeister3146
zeus622
x6flipin602
markeloff187
edward71
kRYSTAL_30
Other Games
singsing2528
B2W.Neo1437
hiko570
Lowko431
DeMusliM336
crisheroes287
Livibee31
ZerO(Twitch)19
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 1147
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream69
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 50
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1371
• Jankos1284
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis1106
Other Games
• WagamamaTV352
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
19h 47m
Escore
20h 47m
OSC
23h 47m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 19h
RSL Revival
1d 20h
Classic vs GgMaChine
Rogue vs Maru
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
IPSL
2 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs TriGGeR
NightMare vs Solar
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
BSL
3 days
IPSL
3 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Patches Events
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
GSL
5 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
6 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-29
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.