• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:10
CEST 22:10
KST 05:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview7[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28)10[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June4Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0
StarCraft 2
General
TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview Updates to The Core/Core Lite for v5.0.16? RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 2026 Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested
Tourneys
GSL CK #4 20-21th June Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 530 One For All The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected
Brood War
General
Where is EffOrt? BW General Discussion vespene.gg — BW replays in browser BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason ZeroSpace Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total War: Warhammer 40K Path of Exile
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Does Workplace Frustration D…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7922 users

[G] The Art Of ZvP 2 - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
sick_transit
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States195 Posts
November 20 2010 18:36 GMT
#81
This is spectacular. This should be in Liquipedia. Thanks.
War is a drug.
nesf
Profile Joined November 2010
Ireland20 Posts
November 20 2010 20:21 GMT
#82
Thank you very much for this!
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:18 GMT
#83
Great guide. As a Protoss player, I more-or-less agree with 100% of your proposed build counters. No Zerg should ever lose a PvZ again.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
November 20 2010 23:22 GMT
#84
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:28 GMT
#85
kcdc has a point, but only if the Zerg overcommits to hydra. In a large army, with a 2:1 ratio of roaches:hydras, I think the hydras are nothing but helpful, especially if kept in the rear of the army. They make any charging zealots utterly melt and also utterly useless.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:39:16
November 20 2010 23:36 GMT
#86
I think this guide is a very good base for someone learning ZvP. I personally like the section with the timings of certain attacks, as this is something i wanted to do research myself on, which i can now skip

One thing i noticed immidiately though: in your 2-3 gate -> Expand branch, against the 6 gate low econ push i think it is definitely better to get burrow immidiately once lair is done, and then get roach speed next, skipping the +1 ranged attack completly, as this will probably not get done before the push arrives at your natural. Also, burrow is very good for saving your roaches if they get split by forcefields - and this kind of push has alot of forcefields, because the P usually expand and gets like 7-8 sentries which will have almost all full energy when he pushes out.

I will read the whole guide tomorrow and maybe ill find some more things with which i can help, but on the first glance most of it seems very solid.

edit: One thing im missing on the second look is any kind of muta/ling play. going purely roach hydra every game does get absolutely stomped by collossi pushes :/
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:48:13
November 20 2010 23:40 GMT
#87
On November 21 2010 08:22 kcdc wrote:
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.


Hm. I actually had to think about that post for a minute before formulating my response, something that doesn't happen too often as there's unfortunately mostly idiots wandering these forums.

As a Z player, I love Mutas. I love their mobility and that they can move anywhere and shoot anything. However since Blizzard didn't want to make Z win 100% of their games they gave it absolutely shitty DPS for their 100 gas cost. Which is ok from a balance standpoint but seeing mutas actually fight other GtA units makes me cringe every single timesince it's always a highly cost-inefficient battle for the Z.

I think that a stalker/sentry/immortal composition has absolutely no trouble against pure roach and even less against roach/muta since the muta production cuts heavily into much-needed upgrades (2/2 roaches are actually good lol) and further tech.
For mutas to actually do something in battle you need critical mass, which is around 16 mutas. No way in hell a Z is gonna be able to get out 16 mutas + roaches to defend constant pressure. It might be possible on 6-8 geysers but on 4 it strikes me as incredibly weak and flimsy.



One game comes to mind where Z wanted to go Roach Muta which was NexGenius vs NesTea. You can see NesTea putting down a spire (not wanting to counter colossus) but then due to immense gateway pressure from Genius he decides to opt for pure roach instead since mutas don't fare too well in low numbers.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
hellblau
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany13 Posts
November 21 2010 00:41 GMT
#88
I love this post; great work!!
(your usage of "ain't" annoyed me a little bit though)
kinkosky
Profile Joined November 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 04:43:22
November 21 2010 04:36 GMT
#89
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

edit i guess the answer is macro up and just rebuild army after stomrs?
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
November 21 2010 04:43 GMT
#90
On November 21 2010 13:36 kinkosky wrote:
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

Muta to snipe works well. Or just go super roach heavy + burrow, they tank storm pretty well.

At least this is what I like to do.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
November 21 2010 06:14 GMT
#91
i've been seeing some hydra rushes lately. When if ever is this good, when is it bad, and how should a protoss resond to it?
DaemonX
Profile Joined September 2010
545 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 06:25:27
November 21 2010 06:24 GMT
#92
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
November 21 2010 06:48 GMT
#93
Thank you very much!!!
What qxc said.
OrcaMOrciM
Profile Joined August 2010
4 Posts
November 21 2010 11:31 GMT
#94
nice guide, liquipedia worthy
Exawn
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands13 Posts
November 21 2010 11:40 GMT
#95
Realy nice work. Just what i needed.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
November 21 2010 11:53 GMT
#96
On November 21 2010 15:24 DaemonX wrote:
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.

That's a typo actually, thanks for catching it. The Hallucination timing was also way off.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
November 21 2010 12:36 GMT
#97
Super awesome, thanks!
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
November 21 2010 12:48 GMT
#98
People like you make TL great LegenD! Keep it up, and thanks for the guide!
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
November 21 2010 15:46 GMT
#99
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
November 21 2010 18:19 GMT
#100
On November 22 2010 00:46 MobiusOne wrote:
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!

you mean 2 gate opening with delayed cyber? as soon as u scout those going down start your own roach warren. when the zealots arrive your roaches will be seconds away from popping. 2 gate is ridiculously awful if scouted.

i like to research ling speed and attack with my roaches i build for defense and rallied slings after driving him away.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 475
ProTech154
MindelVK 39
RushiSC 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2739
Mini 754
EffOrt 559
Shuttle 514
Sea 378
Soulkey 188
Dewaltoss 154
ggaemo 115
Mong 48
sorry 17
[ Show more ]
IntoTheRainbow 15
Dota 2
420jenkins462
monkeys_forever274
canceldota63
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 1213
Super Smash Bros
PPMD46
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu402
Other Games
Grubby3645
FrodaN1101
Beastyqt728
ceh9697
B2W.Neo600
shahzam421
C9.Mang0224
ArmadaUGS149
UpATreeSC148
Livibee105
Trikslyr75
ROOTCatZ64
JuggernautJason62
mouzStarbuck41
minikerr7
OptimusSC21
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream3656
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 1
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade932
Other Games
• imaqtpie898
• WagamamaTV232
• Shiphtur194
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
3h 50m
Replay Cast
12h 50m
The PondCast
1d 13h
OSC
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
GSL
3 days
Maru vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Reynor
herO vs Lambo
Solar vs Clem
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
3 days
XuanXuan vs Jaystar
Mihu vs Messiah
eOnzErG vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs Jaystar
TerrOr vs Messiah
XuanXuan vs Mihu
eOnzErG vs Jaystar
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL
4 days
Patches Events
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
4 days
Dewalt vs Messiah
Bonyth vs Mihu
TerrOr vs XuanXuan
eOnzErG vs Messiah
Jaystar vs Mihu
Dewalt vs XuanXuan
Bonyth vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-15
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
SCTL 2026 Spring
Maestros of the Game 2
WardiTV Spring 2026
Murky Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
BCC 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.