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[G] The Art Of ZvP 2 - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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sick_transit
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States195 Posts
November 20 2010 18:36 GMT
#81
This is spectacular. This should be in Liquipedia. Thanks.
War is a drug.
nesf
Profile Joined November 2010
Ireland20 Posts
November 20 2010 20:21 GMT
#82
Thank you very much for this!
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:18 GMT
#83
Great guide. As a Protoss player, I more-or-less agree with 100% of your proposed build counters. No Zerg should ever lose a PvZ again.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
November 20 2010 23:22 GMT
#84
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.
Slurgi
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
November 20 2010 23:28 GMT
#85
kcdc has a point, but only if the Zerg overcommits to hydra. In a large army, with a 2:1 ratio of roaches:hydras, I think the hydras are nothing but helpful, especially if kept in the rear of the army. They make any charging zealots utterly melt and also utterly useless.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:39:16
November 20 2010 23:36 GMT
#86
I think this guide is a very good base for someone learning ZvP. I personally like the section with the timings of certain attacks, as this is something i wanted to do research myself on, which i can now skip

One thing i noticed immidiately though: in your 2-3 gate -> Expand branch, against the 6 gate low econ push i think it is definitely better to get burrow immidiately once lair is done, and then get roach speed next, skipping the +1 ranged attack completly, as this will probably not get done before the push arrives at your natural. Also, burrow is very good for saving your roaches if they get split by forcefields - and this kind of push has alot of forcefields, because the P usually expand and gets like 7-8 sentries which will have almost all full energy when he pushes out.

I will read the whole guide tomorrow and maybe ill find some more things with which i can help, but on the first glance most of it seems very solid.

edit: One thing im missing on the second look is any kind of muta/ling play. going purely roach hydra every game does get absolutely stomped by collossi pushes :/
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-20 23:48:13
November 20 2010 23:40 GMT
#87
On November 21 2010 08:22 kcdc wrote:
As a P player, I don't see the purpose of hydras in the hydra-roach composition. The only units that can give realistically give a pure roach force trouble are void rays, immortals, and a critical mass of collosi. Against any of those units, you'd be better off with mutas (+queens if voids) than hydras. When I see hydra-roach, I think, "Phew, he's making hydras. If I can just get collosi or storm, I can win with a much smaller army." I know hydras have great DPS, but they kill your mobility and make you incredibly vulnerable if P has the right composition. Pure roach with a threat of mutas is far scarier.


Hm. I actually had to think about that post for a minute before formulating my response, something that doesn't happen too often as there's unfortunately mostly idiots wandering these forums.

As a Z player, I love Mutas. I love their mobility and that they can move anywhere and shoot anything. However since Blizzard didn't want to make Z win 100% of their games they gave it absolutely shitty DPS for their 100 gas cost. Which is ok from a balance standpoint but seeing mutas actually fight other GtA units makes me cringe every single timesince it's always a highly cost-inefficient battle for the Z.

I think that a stalker/sentry/immortal composition has absolutely no trouble against pure roach and even less against roach/muta since the muta production cuts heavily into much-needed upgrades (2/2 roaches are actually good lol) and further tech.
For mutas to actually do something in battle you need critical mass, which is around 16 mutas. No way in hell a Z is gonna be able to get out 16 mutas + roaches to defend constant pressure. It might be possible on 6-8 geysers but on 4 it strikes me as incredibly weak and flimsy.



One game comes to mind where Z wanted to go Roach Muta which was NexGenius vs NesTea. You can see NesTea putting down a spire (not wanting to counter colossus) but then due to immense gateway pressure from Genius he decides to opt for pure roach instead since mutas don't fare too well in low numbers.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
hellblau
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany13 Posts
November 21 2010 00:41 GMT
#88
I love this post; great work!!
(your usage of "ain't" annoyed me a little bit though)
kinkosky
Profile Joined November 2010
United States73 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 04:43:22
November 21 2010 04:36 GMT
#89
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

edit i guess the answer is macro up and just rebuild army after stomrs?
MorsCerta
Profile Joined October 2010
United States234 Posts
November 21 2010 04:43 GMT
#90
On November 21 2010 13:36 kinkosky wrote:
great post. im wondering how should i transition when i scout high temp tech at around 10 minutes? still go roach hydra or tech to t3??

Muta to snipe works well. Or just go super roach heavy + burrow, they tank storm pretty well.

At least this is what I like to do.
If I was you then I would prolly hate on me too. http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MorsCerta
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
November 21 2010 06:14 GMT
#91
i've been seeing some hydra rushes lately. When if ever is this good, when is it bad, and how should a protoss resond to it?
DaemonX
Profile Joined September 2010
545 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-21 06:25:27
November 21 2010 06:24 GMT
#92
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.
rockslave
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Brazil318 Posts
November 21 2010 06:48 GMT
#93
Thank you very much!!!
What qxc said.
OrcaMOrciM
Profile Joined August 2010
4 Posts
November 21 2010 11:31 GMT
#94
nice guide, liquipedia worthy
Exawn
Profile Joined July 2010
Netherlands13 Posts
November 21 2010 11:40 GMT
#95
Realy nice work. Just what i needed.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
November 21 2010 11:53 GMT
#96
On November 21 2010 15:24 DaemonX wrote:
Um, seems nice, but I immediately checked for the most obvious response timing and it wasn't there - that is 4WG rush all-in, attacking before 6 mins (warp finishing ~5:25 - 5:40).

All your builds badly die to this, and you haven't provided a good discussion or answer to this very common opening.

That's a typo actually, thanks for catching it. The Hallucination timing was also way off.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
November 21 2010 12:36 GMT
#97
Super awesome, thanks!
TheAntZ
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Israel6248 Posts
November 21 2010 12:48 GMT
#98
People like you make TL great LegenD! Keep it up, and thanks for the guide!
43084 | Honeybadger: "So july, you're in the GSL finals. How do you feel?!" ~ July: "HUNGRY."
MobiusOne
Profile Joined September 2010
United States106 Posts
November 21 2010 15:46 GMT
#99
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!
"Macro while you macro all day every day"
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
November 21 2010 18:19 GMT
#100
On November 22 2010 00:46 MobiusOne wrote:
I would absolutely love it if you included some info on how to handle 2 gates effectively!

you mean 2 gate opening with delayed cyber? as soon as u scout those going down start your own roach warren. when the zealots arrive your roaches will be seconds away from popping. 2 gate is ridiculously awful if scouted.

i like to research ling speed and attack with my roaches i build for defense and rallied slings after driving him away.
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