EPT[G] The Art Of ZvP 2 - Page 4
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Obsolescence
United States270 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On November 20 2010 01:05 ShadowWolf wrote: I don't know that I agree gas/pool is really a great opener for this, but the guide itself is awesome  If anything, people being successful at a reasonably high level demonstrates that the opener is probably not as big a deal right now.Do you ever choose to go with Muta/Ling routes in situations where you're not facing Blink Stalkers? I did that every game back until 2 weeks ago. When you go Mutalisks there'll be a timing window while Spire morphs where you're extremely week and very likely to die. Spine Crawlers is very uneconomic on most maps since their Naturals are so wide open. However, I still go Mutalisk every now and then on Lost Temple, Shakuras and Metal cross positions. I don't think Roach defence into Mutalisks is viable, but I don't know for sure so it might be. | ||
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my0s
United States193 Posts
Should we expect to see a ZvT and ZvZ followup soon? | ||
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embries
United States70 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On November 20 2010 07:11 my0s wrote: Amazing guide. This is the type of work from the community members that makes TL handsdown the best SC community around. Should we expect to see a ZvT and ZvZ followup soon? I am writing a ZvZ guide at the moment. It's my best match up and I do think I'm one of the best ZvZ players in Europe but it's a very complex matchup and I ain't covering all openings. Only the 2 I feel most comfortable with: 15 Hatch and mass Contaminate. Speedling expand feels like a very solid opening and I wish to learn it in the future but don't expect it in the guide. I feel kinda lost in ZvT at the moment so don't expect that one, at least not in a while. Since the last patch Terrans have gotten so much better at utilising their race. They just feel monstrously strong right now. Perhaps the coming GSL can enlighten me. | ||
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
i have a problem tho. nexus forge expand builds into nothing but stalker/collosus. i know there is a timing where i could kill him before he gets production rolling. but i play macro/defend usually and feel like i should be able to play that way and beat this army. just stalker balls in general are very difficult for me to beat. when the ball gets a decent physical size lings are just a waste of supply. roach/hydra is what i usually have and it gets stomped (HARD when collosus are mixed in). gah! extremely frustrated atm. someone tell me what i am missing please! | ||
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ShadowWolf
United States197 Posts
On November 20 2010 08:32 Vaporized wrote: awesome thread. i have a problem tho. nexus forge expand builds into nothing but stalker/collosus. i know there is a timing where i could kill him before he gets production rolling. but i play macro/defend usually and feel like i should be able to play that way and beat this army. just stalker balls in general are very difficult for me to beat. when the ball gets a decent physical size lings are just a waste of supply. roach/hydra is what i usually have and it gets stomped (HARD when collosus are mixed in). gah! extremely frustrated atm. someone tell me what i am missing please! You might try getting Infestors. Infestors are a very underrated unit in terms of their ability to control space. It's a lot easier to get an advantageous concave when your opponent can't move after-all. I feel like there's a certain point where adding Roaches and/or Hydralisks just isn't helping you anymore. The extras just run around like idiots and then die off when your forces start to dwindle. The other thing to not forget is how powerful Corruptors are against Colossi balls - and to use their special ability. The most important thing, I've found is your engagement point. Corruptors and Infestors allow you to control the positioning of the fight, which is paramount. It doesn't matter how many roaches or hydralisks you have if he has 4+ colossi going wild on your concave. On November 20 2010 01:28 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I did that every game back until 2 weeks ago. When you go Mutalisks there'll be a timing window while Spire morphs where you're extremely week and very likely to die. Spine Crawlers is very uneconomic on most maps since their Naturals are so wide open. However, I still go Mutalisk every now and then on Lost Temple, Shakuras and Metal cross positions. I don't think Roach defence into Mutalisks is viable, but I don't know for sure so it might be. I'm still refining my Zerg play, but I definitely was starting to see that Spire window exposed against 1600+ Protoss players. Before that point, it felt like Muta/Ling was basically unstoppable if they didn't kill a lot of drones at the start, but then people started doing the 6 gate sentry/stalker timing push or even sometimes a 3 gate 2 stalker, 1 zealot push can cause a lot of problems. I definitely like the MutaLing strategy on Shakuras and Metal because it's really easy to move around in "unhittable" space. Lost Temple sometimes, too - but I get that 6 gate attack 9/10 times on that map for whatever reason :-\ I'm looking forward to putting this to bear since I tend to struggle a lot vs 2 base Gateway pushes - especially on Xel'Naga. I might roll with the plan of If Early Robo Then MutaLing Else Roach/Hydra. I've always liked Muta/(B)Ling/Infestor transition in to Ultra/(B)Ling/Infestor. I started having more success when I focused on just delaying and stagnating Terran and less on killing him. I know Day[9] & TLO were talking about that, too, where it's better to just contain rather than attack in a lot of times. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On November 20 2010 08:18 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I am writing a ZvZ guide at the moment. It's my best match up and I do think I'm one of the best ZvZ players in Europe but it's a very complex matchup and I ain't covering all openings. Only the 2 I feel most comfortable with: 15 Hatch and mass Contaminate. Speedling expand feels like a very solid opening and I wish to learn it in the future but don't expect it in the guide. I feel kinda lost in ZvT at the moment so don't expect that one, at least not in a while. Since the last patch Terrans have gotten so much better at utilising their race. They just feel monstrously strong right now. Perhaps the coming GSL can enlighten me. Writing that ZvZ guide would make you a super mega giga baller. As for ZvT, there exists a variety of styles currently in Korea. IdrA insists on using sling/bling/muta and he just crushes faces left and right with his monstruous ZvT. For reference you can watch his MLG rep pack where he won the entire thing. The other that the koreans are doing is roach + X where X usually consists of mainly either mutas or banelings. NesTea prefers going heavier on the mutas whereas FruitDealer likes banelings more but also gets around 5 mutas in mid game just to be able to fend off drops and to gain map control As of now, I think ZvT is the easier matchup for Zerg and most pros agree. Just speedlings alone rape a plethora of Terran units cost for cost. Add to that blings or infestors or mutas and you've got yourself a winning combo | ||
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SaikOuLighT
Canada742 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On November 20 2010 08:59 ShadowWolf wrote: You might try getting Infestors. Infestors are a very underrated unit in terms of their ability to control space. It's a lot easier to get an advantageous concave when your opponent can't move after-all. I feel like there's a certain point where adding Roaches and/or Hydralisks just isn't helping you anymore. The extras just run around like idiots and then die off when your forces start to dwindle. The other thing to not forget is how powerful Corruptors are against Colossi balls - and to use their special ability. The most important thing, I've found is your engagement point. Corruptors and Infestors allow you to control the positioning of the fight, which is paramount. It doesn't matter how many roaches or hydralisks you have if he has 4+ colossi going wild on your concave. thanks for the response! if other people can beat this style of play using roach/hydra/corrupter then i guess i am doing it wrong. i try to get the fight where spines are hitting. maybe i need to move out and meet him halfway and not worry about spines. what is a good drone number to stop at (approx. of course)? i try to be on at least 3 bases asap when i see a toss FE, and a 4th soon after. maybe drone til 8-9 minutes and then start pumping units as much as possible? another thing i am unsure about is how many corrupters to get. most toss push when they have 4+ collosus. how many corrupters do u make to fight that and still have a good enough ground army to kill the stalkers? its probably half in my head at this point. when i see that huge stalker ball moving forward i think i just give up. edit: gonna watch the replay in the first post where he defends zealot/cannon cheese into blink/collosus. that is what i am talking about. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
1: FD used the Speedling opening in all 3 games. It is the best opening when you think you're the better player in the mid- and late game. If you don't think you are, then I agree that you're probably better off with a more Larva heavy opening in most situations. 2: In the Xel'Naga game he delayed Lair and did a 2 base 5 Roach push and managed to kill all the Protoss' Sentrys. However, the did a weird 3 Hatch follow up and lost to a 6 Gate. This might have potential. 3: In the Metalopolis game he played just like I described, but researched burrow. And man, he absolutely demolished that 8:30 min push. Burrow is awesome against Forcefield and if he has enough units to put pressure on you he won't have observers yet. I can really recommend Burrow if you suspect he will throw a hellish 8:30-10 min push at you. | ||
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TALegion
United States1187 Posts
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BrodiaQ
United States892 Posts
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Devilldog
United States69 Posts
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EsMors
53 Posts
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infestation123
United States5 Posts
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
And it had to come just as was getting really good at dealing with mutaling : ( | ||
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BnK
United States538 Posts
On November 20 2010 10:03 ZerG~LegenD wrote: 1: FD used the Speedling opening in all 3 games. It is the best opening when you think you're the better player in the mid- and late game. I dont know if i'm a better player in mid-late game or not. can you elaborate? | ||
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tchan
Australia121 Posts
but great guide, laddering against z will be even more annoying than usual in the next couple of weeks | ||
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