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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
I am just not sure how better terran lose to this.. they would have to really fail at scouting i think. I am going to play some practice games and see how my scout timing and compares.. I feel like maybe on 4 spawn location maps it might get the jump on me.. but I feel like I can micro by the time that those roaches hit. Maybe thats just because I have a very aggressive early play style vs zerg. I will post the results laters with how are games went. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:20 DreamSailor wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-162252.jpg) Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed. It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing. Wow have you noticed he could have killed your last cannon when it was warping and probably won if he had noticed his 2 -4 idle roaches outside his base. This looks extremely strong even when you scouted and prepared. Perhaps more cannons and skipping the cyber with zealots and probes to hold them off while the cannons build. edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9. edit2: btw, I don't know how much difference it makes, but its always better to delay extractor and put 3 drones in it, then pull one out, then put 2 in it from the start. You lose however many seconds of mining time from the extracter drone, just a minor thing. | ||
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bone577
Australia65 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
no, just one zergling from a half-larvae, means you can make an extra half-drone | ||
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:46 TheFinalWord wrote: Wow have you noticed he could have killed your last cannon when it was warping and probably won if he had noticed his 2 -4 idle roaches outside his base. This looks extremely strong even when you scouted and prepared. Perhaps more cannons and skipping the cyber with zealots and probes to hold them off while the cannons build. edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9. edit2: btw, I don't know how much difference it makes, but its always better to delay extractor and put 3 drones in it, then pull one out, then put 2 in it from the start. You lose however many seconds of mining time from the extracter drone, just a minor thing. Uh... Skipping the Cyber imo is a really bad idea. If you build zealots you -will- get kited. You need stalkers to kill Roaches with any real efficiency. I saw dropped the Forge pretty soon after I scouted the warren, but it could've been faster. You'll also notice I'm not the best at staying calm and while frantically microing, I neglected to build more stalkers and the like. I don't doubt this flat out beats 2 gate zealot. You need to open 1gatecore or forge first to stand a chance at holding this. Roaches also rip through cannons. You can see that I put them down when the roaches are halfway to my base, and they are killed before they finish. If this was Steppes of War or close position metalopolis, I would've had to GG. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On November 02 2010 15:08 DreamSailor wrote: Well I see that you scouted it before your gate was finished, I'm just wondering if delaying the gas/cyber and throwing down a forge even before gateway was finished would ensure at least 2 cannons finished before the roaches arrived even on close spawns. Uh... Skipping the Cyber imo is a really bad idea. If you build zealots you -will- get kited. You need stalkers to kill Roaches with any real efficiency. I saw dropped the Forge pretty soon after I scouted the warren, but it could've been faster. You'll also notice I'm not the best at staying calm and while frantically microing, I neglected to build more stalkers and the like. I don't doubt this flat out beats 2 gate zealot. You need to open 1gatecore or forge first to stand a chance at holding this. Roaches also rip through cannons. You can see that I put them down when the roaches are halfway to my base, and they are killed before they finish. If this was Steppes of War or close position metalopolis, I would've had to GG. | ||
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LtLolburger
New Zealand365 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
edit: man I feel betrayed, I thought this would work and then I rewatched all the replays and only 1 /3 actually scouted it. It's impossible to deny the scout and 2 of them didnt scout it. I'm putting this into the folder of cheese that doesnt work vs worthwile players. Op I'm a bit disaapointed that most of the replays you put up, your all in isnt scouted and the best part about all-ins in general are that they are hard to scout. This is easier to scout then a 6 pool so, I'm a bit mislead. | ||
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enemy2010
Germany1972 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:46 TheFinalWord wrote: edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9. Yes, Husky did. Nice build, tried it out against AI, will try it against real humans  And I think there is a "transission" out of it. Why can't these roaches just be an early pressure, and after building like 4-5 roache you can't just go back to normal game mode, droneing up/build queens and stuff? | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On November 02 2010 00:46 Ncinerate wrote: I'm beating -good- players with this. I think it's stronger than a 6 pool+drone attack (which always seems to fail for me). Just watched, and the guys you played are not good. Sorry man, all Terran has to do is make a bunker. I can't speak about how this works in ZvP, so maybe it works there. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
I didn't read your post really (yet) because i have to go now BUT... ... 3RR allin where you send workers too is pretty powerfull and sadly I'm not @diamond so i cannot test it. In platinium it worked literally 10times out of 10times. It's alot about micro. I can give some replays today soon hopefully. | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231 After a few minutes of running it I got 3:32 as my fastest time, but this thing needs to run for a lot of hours to get the most optimum builds. + Show Spoiler + @0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone @0:13 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:7/10 BuildDrone @0:15 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:17 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:24 M:52 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone @0:30 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:30 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:34 M:54 G:0 L:2 S  /10 BuildDrone@0:41 Spawned: Drone+1 @0:45 Spawned: Larva+1 @0:51 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:00 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:05 M:204 G:0 L:3 S:10/10 BuildSpawningPool @1:13 M:55 G:0 L:3 S /10 BuildDrone@1:28 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:28 M:100 G:0 L:3 S:10/10 BuildOverlord @1:30 Spawned: Drone+1 @1:32 M:27 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildExtractor @1:43 Spawned: Larva+1 @1:43 M:71 G:0 L:3 S /10 BuildDrone@1:53 Spawned: Overlord+1 @1:58 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:00 Spawned: Drone+1 @2:02 Spawned: Extractor+1 @2:10 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1 @2:10 M:200 G:0 L:3 S:10/18 MineGas @2:10 M:200 G:0 L:3 S:10/18 BuildZergling @2:10 M:150 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildRoachWarren @2:10 M:0 G:0 L:2 S:10/18 MineGas @2:12 Mining: +1 on gas @2:12 Mining: +1 on gas @2:25 Spawned: Larva+1 @2:34 Spawned: Zergling+2 @2:34 M:118 G:32 L:3 S:10/18 BuildExtractor @3:04 Spawned: Extractor+1 @3:04 M:222 G:74 L:3 S /18 MineGas@3:04 M:222 G:74 L:3 S /18 MineGas@3:05 Spawned: Roach Warren+1 @3:05 M:225 G:75 L:3 S /18 BuildRoach@3:05 M:150 G:50 L:2 S:11/18 BuildRoach @3:05 M:75 G:25 L:1 S:13/18 BuildRoach @3:06 Mining: +1 on gas @3:06 Mining: +1 on gas @3:20 Spawned: Larva+1 @3:32 Spawned: Roach+1 @3:32 Spawned: Roach+1 @3:32 Spawned: Roach+1 Satisfied. Number of actions in build order: 32 ---Final Output--- At time: 3:32 Minerals: 81 Gas: 76 Supply: 15/18 Drones: 8 Overlords: 2 Zerglings: 2 Roaches: 3 Hatcheries: 1 Gas Extractors: 2 Spawning Pools: 1 Roach Warrens: 1 ------------------ Tue Nov 02 04:08:02 EDT 2010: 555674.1683300108 and in simple format: 10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0 10 Overlord M:100 G:0 10 Extractor M:27 G:0 10 +1 Drone on gas M:200 G:0 10 Zergling M:200 G:0 11 RoachWarren M:150 G:0 10 +1 Drone on gas M:0 G:0 10 Extractor M:118 G:32 9 +1 Drone on gas M:222 G:74 9 +1 Drone on gas M:222 G:74 9 Roach M:225 G:75 11 Roach M:150 G:50 13 Roach M:75 G:25 And 4:00 for a more economical version: 10 SpawningPool M:204 G:0 10 Overlord M:100 G:0 10 Extractor M:27 G:0 13 +1 Drone on gas M:52 G:0 13 RoachWarren M:152 G:8 12 Zergling M:57 G:13 13 +1 Drone on gas M:7 G:13 13 Queen M:156 G:41 15 Overlord M:105 G:61 15 Roach M 7 G:7917 +1 Drone on minerals M:22 G:54 17 +1 Drone on minerals M:22 G:54 17 Roach M:124 G:54 19 Roach M:75 G:29 21 +1 Drone on gas M:0 G:4 21 +1 Drone on gas M:0 G:4 | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there. The problem is that you're all-in and he's not. All he has to do is hold on 20-30 sec and his much superior economy will kick in. I could see this build working vs a 1/1/1 Terran who doesn't bunker up, but this shouldn't be common enough to doing this build blindly every game vs Terran. I think I prefer the 7RR as far as roaches all-in goes. With this 3RR you got horrible economy, working on 1hatch/no queen, so if it fails to outright snap your opponent's neck, you lost. With the 7RR you do have the option to somewhat stay in the game by droning up during your push instead of reinforcing constantly. If he's prepared for a 7RR you can either camp his base to prevent FE or turn tail and use your roaches to prevent any form of harassment. If he's prepared for a 3RR, or even if he made a blind build that counters it, it's over. | ||
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On November 01 2010 23:49 johanngrunt wrote: 3 seems like a good number. one shots workers and marines. Will try it out. Even though you say it is all in, do you think there is any way to transition out of it? It seems like there is no option out of it. The build involves not making any workers after the initial ones, so it would be very difficult to catch up to the opponents worker count. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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Ncinerate
172 Posts
On November 02 2010 14:59 bone577 wrote: So let me get this straight, you open up the Zerg BO optimizer program, let it run for a while, paste the build orders it generates, then claim they are build orders you have been devising? No. And if you'd tried exactly that you'd see why. The evolution chamber is a cool program, but if you let it run on THIS particular problem it comes up with a several-second faster solution that doesn't give you enough drones to continue roach production. This wasn't exactly a hard strategy to "devise" though. I started by theorycrafting that maybe a 6 pool could be modified into a 6 pool into roaches. It turns out you lack the drones to get roach production up if you do that. So I tried a 7 pool, 8 pool, and finally a 9 pool. I was looking for the fastest possible roaches with continued roach production when larva spawn. This is what I found. It's not rocket science. I used all resources at my disposal though, if the build order optimizer would have come up with a BETTER build I would have -absolutely- used and posted about it (with a note that the build had come from the optimizer, because it's awesome and I appreciate the work they are putting into it). Allow me to explain why: A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time. | ||
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QwiXXeR
16 Posts
On November 02 2010 23:21 Ncinerate wrote: A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time. | ||
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nihoh
Australia978 Posts
On November 02 2010 23:21 Ncinerate wrote: A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time. Shut down tbh. Good post imo. | ||
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