EPTThe 3 Roach Rush (lightning Ragnarok Majesty) - Page 10
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EtonB
Mexico7 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On November 09 2010 09:18 nigritude wrote: this is pretty amazing against terran. against toss though, when they see your early pool, they think you 6 pooled and throw up a forge and cannons. then gg While cannons will counter it, it's much easier (and faster) for terran to just build bunkers. Both sides can counter it, and I'd say it's easier for terran than protoss... your experience may have just been a bit different. | ||
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Zerius[TPR]
Canada1633 Posts
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Ncinerate
172 Posts
On November 09 2010 13:04 Zerius[TPR] wrote: Are you of any relation to Warcraft 2/SC1 legend INcinerate? Nope. I actually always went by Ncinerate (as far back as games allowed names). I switched it up for SC2 because of all the confusion (everyone seemed to think my name was pronounced nicorette, enough over headsets in TF2 and MW2 that I finally added the I). In WC2 and SC1 I was good, but certainly no legend. | ||
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aeoliant
Canada361 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I think earlier posters are correct though in that it will be seen just as the 6-pool is and it really can be countered very easily if you expect it... you just need to know what to look for (low drone gas, etc). Thanks a lot for sharing this. | ||
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laonda
Netherlands44 Posts
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Poopfeast
160 Posts
For protoss it dies to a tight walloff and quick stalker/Sentry ff. Counters 6pool on all maps. | ||
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Vathus
Canada404 Posts
On November 10 2010 00:34 laonda wrote: Does anyone has a good counter to this from a Protoss pov? I am having big problems against this push, same for 7RR. I scout it but i am unable to stop it what so ever. It seems to be the new 6 pool As soon as you scout it get a forge and build cannons (you'll probably need about 4) and maybe a couple sentries if you can afford them. Usually when zergs go for this build they also bring their queens and all their drones i've never actually played against the exact version in the op but here's a replay vs a 1900 zerg the attack comes at about the same time. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=164495 | ||
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.ImpacT.
United States390 Posts
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On November 10 2010 08:36 .ImpacT. wrote: IF I see this early of a roach warren and as few drones, I just build a forge and a cannon or two at my ramp :/ 1 cannon won't do anything, but 2 cannons and 1 zealot wall will absolutely crush this. I really really liked it at first, but if your opponent knows what to do, it's so easy to counter it. It's a great find, but I think it has more utility in 2's and 3's than solo. | ||
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Tsabo
Russian Federation266 Posts
Just faced this build. Went for 13 gate, Scouted the 10 pool with my probe -> got zealot b4 cyber core -> save chronoboost -> scout the roach warren -> second gateway fast -> chronoboost sentry -> chronoboost stalkers from 2 gates. had to bring some probes off but I held it fine, and proceeded to get an easy win. Was expecting a 7RR tho, have seen it played of a 10 pool often. I think cannons should never be used to fight cheese, unless its super all in like a 6 pool. Because you put yourself back, and he can just abandon the rush and catch up. | ||
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goony
Australia28 Posts
Also, i'm just throwing it out there, but i think you should just call this the Lightning Ragnarok Roach Rush, it sounds cooler imho. At least, that's how i've been introducing it to friends anyway. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
On November 08 2010 13:55 Ncinerate wrote: I would, but evolution chamber didn't come up with this - I did. Try it for yourself, evolution chamber comes up with a different solution with less drones (less ability to produce roaches after the initial push due to less drones with 3 roaches out @ 3:31). I use evolution chamber all the time these days, and I really think it helps me round my build orders down - it wasn't necessary or helpful in THIS particular instance. It's not like this was a difficult build order to "come up with" though. I wanted to build 3 really quick roaches with enough income to continue building them. My initial thought was perhaps I'd modify a 6 pool to build roaches - that was slow and not effective due to lack of drones. I slowly inched the pools up over a handful of games and this is what I came up with. It took less than an hour total to come up with the idea, test the build, and win a few games with it on the ladder. And of course, the evo chamber absolutely came up with the 7RR, and so did I, and so did lots of other people with virtually identical builds throughout the last handful of months. There was no attempt to skirt credit-where-credit was due, coincidences happen. I'm not looking to argue here though, I am simply attempting to share ideas with teamliquid forum dwellers. Ncinerate is right. He invented it himself and so did many others (I found this build in first week of sc2 and liked it. I also think i saw already thread about 3RR so I didnt share it.) And IMHO programs for making builds are not very optimal because in practice the map and possible cheese/scout/FE deny affects you. Sure it's possible but I would any time of the day invent it in custom game. But finally we got thread to discuss about this strat and indeed I think it's very strong with drones. | ||
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karmafarm
2 Posts
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bmn
886 Posts
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red_hq
Canada450 Posts
On November 10 2010 00:34 laonda wrote: Does anyone has a good counter to this from a Protoss pov? I am having big problems against this push, same for 7RR. I scout it but i am unable to stop it what so ever. It seems to be the new 6 pool Regular toss build for 5RR+ (13 pool): + Show Spoiler + 9 Pylon 13 Gate On 2player maps you should see the roach warren building right about now. On 4 player you may not scout it till roaches are actually finishing in which case make sentry stalker and throw down a robo and kite until immortal finishes remember to intercept the roaches with any stalkers you may have at this point for maximum delay. 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core as soon as your gate finishes 18 Gas it seems unorthodox but you need 200-300 gas FAST. 20 Robo right when your core finishes 23 Sentry or as soon as you have the gas 24 Gate 28 Immortal as soon as robo finishes (chrono as much as you can) 30 Sentry (Chrono) Usually about immortal 50% completion the roaches get there FF and wait fro immortal to finish and watch the carnage. From there make one more immortal and a bunch of zealots and push out when the second non chronoed immortal finishes. If for some reason he holds pull back and transition to colossus/phoenix depending if you saw a spire or not. Regular toss build for 3RR (9 pool) + Show Spoiler + 9 Pylon 13 Gate On 2player maps you should see the roach warren building right about now. On 4 player you may not scout it till roaches are actually finishing just drop your current build cancel any non essential buildings and start this one. 14-15 forge 15-16 pylon near ramp Cut probe production and make 2 cannons. You probably want to make a wall with this because even with two cannons three roaches will be able to make one full health through and another with 50 HP. Followed by gas and a core when you can afford it in that order continue making probes and transition into 4 gate timing attack. Depending on his army composition you may want to stick to sentry stalker or if it is pure roaches you may want to throw down a robo and go two gate robo instead of 4 gate push. works for me, if you are having trouble with 5RR+ play vs very hard AI on steppes or Xel caverns its the only build it does. Use it to figure out the tell tale signs and learn how to execute this properly vs it. | ||
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jmack
Canada285 Posts
Even as a P watching that made me smile. O and zergs, if I hold this rush, voidrays incoming, count on it. : D | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On November 10 2010 06:33 Unfeared wrote: This dies to marauder rushes and defensive reaper rushes. For protoss it dies to a tight walloff and quick stalker/Sentry ff. Counters 6pool on all maps. I don't mean to call you a liar, but here are some interesting things to note about the timings for the "counters" you just said. -The soonest a marauder can reasonably be out is 3:40 (when the roaches pop). You can have 2 marauders out AT MOST by the time the 3roaches (and 2 lings) come. and You can have an additional 1 marauder and 1 marine about 20 seconds later (when there 5 total roaches have arrived at your base). You will only have 1 reaper out if you rush reapers. -The soonest a sentry can be reasonably done (1-gate core) is ~3:45. This will give you a whopping ONE forcefield for your ramp. Roaches will still be able to hit anything walling you off due to OL sight. Further, you'll have at most 2 zealots to support the one sentry. Once your next 2 gateway units come out, Roaches have been reinforced by 2 additional roaches. -lings will be in your base for almost an entire minute before 3 roaches spawn. Not sure you can make such an audacious claim. Also, replays please... You can't counter this with standard play, and although it is very easy to counter (see:make units/bunker/cannon), the three strategies you mention will only ensure quick losses. | ||
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