Hi everyone. For my first new post here at the teamliquid forums, I want to share my 3 roach rush. I posted this up at the Zerg blizz forum (I'm incinerate over there) but I figure it might get a good critical eye here as well. This new attack packs the same punch over time as the typical 7RR, but hits so much faster and is absolutely 100% deadly in my testing thus-far. I'm pretty certain that unless someone starts the game building SPECIFICALLY to stop this, it's GG (a terran -might- be able to stop this after scouting, but none have been able to vs me thus-far). Note, this is NOT a ZvZ build and will lose in that instance, but I have some really amazing replays against some diamond P and T to demonstrate it's power.
VS a Diamond Protoss (Thanks Warp, this is a hilarious replay and I don't mind sharing it here since you asked!):
As you watch those replays, please note that this strategy is in it's infancy so I make some rookie mistakes (like VS toss I forget to build my overlord after the attack has begun, and that seriously slows my reinforcements - which ultimately allows him to survive much longer than he should have).
EDIT: I've been modifying this build a bit, I will leave my original posted BO etc below, but this is my newest variation on it with a fake-expansion drone to try and throw the enemy off the scent:
Send overlord immediately to enemy ramp. If it's a 4P map, send it to the second closest then move it to the furthest main if he isn't there, send your second OL to the closest.
9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY - when it finishes put 2 drones on it) 9 Overlord
Send a drone to the ramp - this is your "fake expo" drone. Move it to the expo when you see the enemy probe/scv scout - try to distract them into attempting to "delay" your fast expansion by dancing around the expo and taking potshots at his scv/probe. Delay long enough to get the zerglings down there to kill it. If this doesn't work, pull a bunch of drones if necessary to intercept the worker scout as he's coming up your ramp, you WANT to kill this scout before he see's what you are doing. He might overreact when you do this, but if he's decent he will -definitely- overreact if he spots that early roach warren (and 2 bunkers or 2 cannons will absolutely 100% hard counter you). The idea here is to make him unable to know if you've fast expanded or not. If he builds cannons vs a fast expand he's put himself way behind.
Build one last drone (this is the last drone you will build) Zergling the second the spawning pool pops (these are going to attempt to stop the enemy scout - hopefully he's chasing your "expo" drone - if not, use the expo drone and 2 lings to kill it)
Roach Warren @ 150 or when enemy scout is killed (your call)
As the roach warren pops, build 3 roaches IMMEDIATELY (you should have just enough gas/minerals). Rally the hatchery to below the enemy ramp. Build a fourth roach asap as a followup.
Now build an Overlord, then -constantly- build roaches every time you have 75 minerals/25 gas, rallied to the enemy base or ramp.
Here is what I originally posted below
So, here's the build order: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor) 9 Overlord 9 Roach Warren
As the Roach Warren is started, the extractor will finish, put 2 (yes, only TWO) drones on the extractor.
Now build 1 zergling, to attempt to deny scouting.
As the roach warren pops, build 3 roaches IMMEDIATELY (you should have just enough gas/minerals). Rally the hatchery to below the enemy ramp.
Now build an Overlord, then -constantly- build roaches every time you have 75 minerals/25 gas, rallied to one of your initial roaches that are heading into the enemy base (this way they automatically join the fray without alot of extra micro required).
This is an all-in strategy, it's basically the Roach version of a 6 pool ling rush, so fully commit and don't build ANY drones.
The first 3 roaches will be completely finished and heading to your enemy base before 3:40. They will arrive somewhere between 4:15-4:30 (3 roaches with a pair of zerglings) depending on the map and rush distance.
If you are facing a Terran, use your overlord to gain vision of the cliff and begin to snipe out one of the supply depots he used to complete his wall from BELOW the cliff. The new roach range will seriously help here, sniping out any marines that try to move forward, or any scv's that come up to repair the building. Remember to CONTINUE BUILDING ROACHES every time you hit 75 min/25 gas (hotkey the hatch and keep using it).
You'll punch through the wall and run over the enemy. Your roaches are there too early for marauders to become a factor, and the marines aren't plentiful enough to stop you. Just keep on attacking, micro'ing around and kiting SCV's/killing SCV's. By 5:30, when a traditional 7RR would have arrived, you already have 7 roaches IN HIS BASE tearing stuff up. GG.
If you are facing Protoss, you'll run into probably 1 zealot. Rush up the ramp and snipe out the pylon powering the forward gateway if possible, if not, move in and begin tearing up probes. Micro kite away if he attacks you with the probes, try not to let them get a surround. Meanwhile, continue roach production and overwhelm him with roaches. Even with completely screwed up build vs an AMAZING micro using protoss (in the replay above) I'm able to run him over with roaches. I even mess up and fail to build an overlord, meaning my reinforcements take a LONG time to arrive, and I forget to rally my hatchery to my roaches, so they end up standing around below his ramp. I -still- overwhelm him.
So, try it, be amazed, and let me know what you think...
I haven't watched the replays but to me it seems a good Terran will scout the Roach Warren and instantly throw up a bunker. A bunker with even only 1 marine (but probably 2-3) cannot be broken by 3 roaches. Protoss will probably rush for stalkers and just pull probes to deter you from attacking the pylon while kiting your slowroaches around their base and building a second pylon to secure their gateway and close the gap to stop reinforcements.
Might be good if it catches your opponent off guard though.
Just watched the replay against the supposed 1739 Diamond Protoss, and I'll tell you.. He was pretty horrible. He went for a late two gate, and was supply blocked for a long time. Got gas he couldn't use, and just was in general pretty terrible. I can't imagine how badly this strategy would have gone for you if a half competent Protoss spawned at cross positions.
I can see this being fairly effective against Terran, if you micro really well, but that's about it.
Also, I don't understand why you didn't build any zerglings to help your roaches out once he had only stalkers? Stalkers can kite roaches forever.
Just watched both replays. The protoss had good micro as mentioned, but he went for two gate instead of standard gate core.
The terran was the real one thats terrible, he scouted the fast pool. but didn't see the roach warren, he wasted money on an engineering bay at ur natural that he actually finished. Then he had like 300 minerals saved up when u attacked with the roaches.
You are too low on drones to transition out. It's like a 6 pool, essentially. You've got one shot at winning, but it's a LOT better of a shot then you have doing a 6 pool .
I'd like to think the protoss fell apart in large part because of the early attack. I torched his pylon pretty quick and screwed him over. I also had VERY delayed followup roaches due to my own supply block, so I doubt he would have ever gotten up that next wave of stalker/sentry if I'd have properly built.
A good Terran might throw up a bunker for his early marine or two, but I should be able to tear through his wall and run straight past it. Bunkers don't move, roaches do. This attack happens quick enough that it can get past it.
Try it before you totally poo-poo it, I think you'll be surprised. You've got some SERIOUS killing power -very- early, and it only rolls up from there (in fact, it's got 7 roaches inside the enemy base earlier than a typical 11/10 pool 7RR). Keep them alive, kite around, and win.
Another thing - you COULD build lings instead of followup roaches, but I found the roaches to be more effective. Yes, a toss can kite them with a single stalker, but I can basically ignore the stalker and tear up every single mining probe he has (3 roaches 1-shot a worker, so it's not hard to rip their line up fast). If you go with zerglings instead, you can throw up 6-8 of them before supply block, and quickly follow them up with another pile of lings as well.
While he's fiddling with kiting around his lone stalker I've ripped his pylons up, killed his probes, and am slowly building a big unstoppable roach force.
My experience with 5rr shows roaches alone are quite bad at rushing. Speedling support is really necessary for the stage when you break the wall since the workers alone can screw you over.
On November 01 2010 23:52 pyrobb wrote: Just watched both replays. The protoss had good micro as mentioned, but he went for two gate instead of standard gate core.
I'm pretty sure a gate/assim would have failed even harder. Early stalker, sure, but less production and an easier time ripping him up imho.
On November 01 2010 23:57 Cheerio wrote: My experience with 5rr shows roaches alone are quite bad at rushing. Speedling support is really necessary for the stage when you break the wall since the workers alone can screw you over.
Kite. If he brings workers toward you just keep stepping back and hitting S, then stepping away again. 3 roaches -tear- through workers at this stage in the game, and you've got additional waves of them coming to reinforce. I haven't had any issues with workers stopping me using this build.
I really don't think the terran player reacted adequately. He saw 10 pool then roach warren immedietly after that and just built 4 marines out of 1 rax and sat on 400+ minerals untill the roaches came then put down 2 panic rax. could have been easily avoided if he built his stuff accordingly ( could have since he saw what was comming ) or just had built more units. or repaired. or built a bunker sooner. or pull workers and countered. simply put, I think he underestimated the situation.
some scrub did that against me on the ladder and i lost kinda confused at that point any toss have an idea on how to beat it? and i scouted it too.. :/
A terran has a better shot at beating this than a toss imho. I haven't lost using it -yet- but a Terran did come closest to beating me (he double bunkered my ramp, I broke out with roaches and hit him. I broke through his home wall but he managed to just BARELY kill my scouting OL as I was doing this which put me into supply block. I managed to get OL's up and get enough roaches there to kill him, but only because he thought things had settled down and was trying to expo.
Basically, had he just kept up marine production he probably had me, thanks to the big delay in my attack due to the dual-bunker block.
Roaches are so slow off creep that if the opponent is scouting you, which a good player always will be doing against fishy one-basing zerg, there is just too much time for them to react unless you are on a map like steppes of war or close positions on LT. If you are going to all-in you might as well do a 6/7 pool + workers.
On November 01 2010 23:52 pyrobb wrote: Just watched both replays. The protoss had good micro as mentioned, but he went for two gate instead of standard gate core.
I'm pretty sure a gate/assim would have failed even harder. Early stalker, sure, but less production and an easier time ripping him up imho.
Yea but the reality is, it's not about honest opinions, it's about facts, get some more replays against good players, maybe even find a custom game partner. Get proof, against some good players.
if the 3 roaches arrive around 415 than against toss it could be useful. warpgate (fastest comes around 5:30-5:45) and 3 roaches will break zealot wall and can kill a stalker with range or workers since a stalker can't kill the roaches fast enough. A force field at the ramp will delay roaches but will have 2 deal with reinforcing roaches. In theory sounds good though. As I can't see the replays.
On November 02 2010 00:11 desrow wrote: some scrub did that against me on the ladder and i lost kinda confused at that point any toss have an idea on how to beat it? and i scouted it too.. :/
I don't know about other toss players but whenever I scout an early pool I immediately throw down a forge and then a cannon or 2. The good thing for protoss players is a Gate-Forge opening will stop both ling and roach rushes. Tech to voids and it's gg.
I don't doubt it works around 1500's diamond, or that it even works with some regularity. But it requires a protoss player to either underestimate roaches and/or react incorrectly because everybody will be scouting that early pool. There is no real 'surprise factor' involved.
and skyro what do u do when the zerg decides to build a spawning pool + baneling nest , banelings really hard counter gate forge openings , or is it just me doing something wrong ?
On November 02 2010 01:24 metalsonic wrote: and skyro what do u do when the zerg decides to build a spawning pool + baneling nest , banelings really hard counter gate forge openings , or is it just me doing something wrong ?
you just get a cannon for the DPS allowing you to kill off any push if you can stop it at the ramp much easier.
On November 02 2010 01:39 petzergling wrote: what about building pool on 6 and then warren on 6 then roaches on 6. fastest pressure and u will get into the fray quickly
It doesn't work. Not enough drones to get the roaches up quickly, ends up slower AND without proper reinforcements.
Watched both replays, and I have to admit, going into the second replay after seeing your "micro god" in action I wasn't expecting much. Neither did I get much.
In short, both players were terrible. The worst thing was that neither of them scouted your entire base in the beginning. Sure it's a fast pool and people react to that, but a good player would scout the entire creep spread anyway. They were both floating loads of resources most of the time and, as others have mentioned, the toss managed to supply block himself (while floating 300 minerals!). His micro was ok, but considering the macro he sacrificed for his fancy stalker-dance, I wouldn't give it any credit (I think he was right about being too tired). The terran completed his engi bay in your nat, while not building a bunker until it was too late. Even when his tech lab completed, he didn't build a marauder despite having the resources, albeit it might have been too late there.
Would love to see this build against some skilled players, I don't believe you've shown its full potential with these replays.
On November 02 2010 02:02 Luckbox wrote: Chat from the replay seems to indicate the OP is a raging douche.
Maybe your reading it wrong, I was being friendly - perhaps I came off douchy unintentionally.
BTW, working on modifying this build a hair. I think I've figured out a way to get the roaches out @ the same timing with a bit better economy - like enough perhaps to squeeze in a baneling nest......
I have to say, i went online and played a 1000 lvl Toss player n it completely caught em off guard even after the fact he scouted 9 pool but he didn't see the roach warren going up. But still it was pretty one sided n toss couldn't do anything, plus he FF the ramp but more reinforcement came by the time that finished
Would love to see this build against some skilled players, I don't believe you've shown its full potential with these replays.
I just wanted to toss a couple reps up quickly too give people an idea of what I was doing. Your absolutely right, neither of these reps is perfect (on their side -OR- mine, I totally supply blocked myself vs the toss). I figured some actual replays would be appreciated vs some games vs AI or theorycraft. I apologize that blizz keeps matching me up vs 1400-1700 pt diamond players who play -like this-, and I haven't lost to one yet.
If I could get a game vs one of these great players I'd be happy to try the strat out and post a replay for you.
On November 02 2010 01:39 petzergling wrote: what about building pool on 6 and then warren on 6 then roaches on 6. fastest pressure and u will get into the fray quickly
On November 02 2010 01:24 metalsonic wrote: and skyro what do u do when the zerg decides to build a spawning pool + baneling nest , banelings really hard counter gate forge openings , or is it just me doing something wrong ?
I'm guessing your use a pylon as part of your ramp wall-off? You should have sentries before you are ever threathened with enough banelings to take down your gate-forge wall-off. Also as far as I'm aware (I'm not a zerg player so this is just based off my experience facing them) traditional baneling bust builds go standard 14 pool, in which case I also would have went with a standard build.
I will give it the benefit of the doubt and try it once or twice, but in both of your replays that you demonstrate this in, the enemy players seem content that they have scouted a very early pool and leave the base. Neither of them ever see the Roach Warren and do not expect it. If the Warren is scouted, I feel this will not work.
A few good replays would help the case but I think people are missing the point. This is basically an all-in cheese that, like any other cheese, is VERY hard to counter unless you scouted it and knew exactly what was coming. Given that it is a relatively new build, I doubt people are going to expect 3 roaches in ~4 minutes even if they scouted the early RW.
As a Protoss player, this would demolish me if I didn't see it coming as a standard gate/core opening cannot hold this off very well. EVERY build has a counter if you scout it out early enough and this is no different, but this one has some novelty and robustness compared to 6-pool.
Since you decide to put only 2 drones on gas, wouldn't it be more beneficial to build a much later extractor and then put three drones on gas, then pull the third drone from gas at time X? Just wondering.
Checked the timings and got almost exactly the same spawn timings as the OP, despite BO optimizer saying it should be quite a bit faster. ( not sure what thats about ).
It definitely forces the opponent to optimize their unit production to counter - once they realise it's coming they need to cut all worker production and just build shit.
The terran in the replay looked like he could have held if he had been a little better, not entirely sure about the toss.
On November 02 2010 02:36 Luckbox wrote: Checked the timings and got almost exactly the same spawn timings as the OP, despite BO optimizer saying it should be quite a bit faster. ( not sure what thats about ).
It definitely forces the opponent to optimize their unit production to counter - once they realise it's coming they need to cut all worker production and just build shit.
The terran in the replay looked like he could have held if he had been a little better, not entirely sure about the toss.
Yeah, the BO optimizer isn't exactly accurate on the timing (it's usually early by 10+ seconds compared to real in-game timing). They are supposedly fixing this on a soon-to-be-released update, and that will be awesome .
On November 02 2010 02:33 Mystgun wrote: A few good replays would help the case but I think people are missing the point. This is basically an all-in cheese that, like any other cheese, is VERY hard to counter unless you scouted it and knew exactly what was coming. Given that it is a relatively new build, I doubt people are going to expect 3 roaches in ~4 minutes even if they scouted the early RW.
As a Protoss player, this would demolish me if I didn't see it coming as a standard gate/core opening cannot hold this off very well. EVERY build has a counter if you scout it out early enough and this is no different, but this one has some novelty and robustness compared to 6-pool.
Again, I'm not sure if I'm the only one or what, but I always go gate-forge if I scout early pool. Early pool almost always is an all-in, so what's the point of going standard gate-core? And like I said before whether it's early lings or roaches, gate-forge will stop it dead in its tracks.
The only time it wouldn't be scouted is on a 4-player map and they scout in the wrong direction. However in that scenario travel distance becomes a factor in its effectiveness (remember roaches are slow off creep w/o speed upgrade).
Just tried this against a toss and lost ( close positions lost temple ). , actually it was my fault and was winnable. he completely walled his front to buy enough time to get enough cannons up to shut me down Gateway|Forge|Gateway at the natural ( ie fe type build ) and then cannoned behind, like a retard I took the forge out last and by the time I broke it he had ~2 zealots that he sacced and 3 cannons up, then he remade gateways behind those cannons and had a big enough eco lead I couldn't bust through in time.
Pretty sure if he'd gone gateway+cybernetics he'd have lost, and if he'd tried 2gate>zealots he'd have lost.
how's the timing work vs chrono boosted stalker/sentry? seems protoss could have a few units out by the time roaches crossed the whole map. stalkers can kite, sentry would FF easily ramp to split slow moving roaches.
I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I go into a Zerg base expecting to see no pool (hatch first), a just started pool (14 pool), or a pool about to finish/already finished (earlier pool.. my timings aren't fantastic!).
If I saw a finished pool, a roach warren going down, an extractor with drones in it and 6 drones mining, what about that doesn't SCREAM all-in at you? The Toss in that replay lost because he got to your base, saw the pool right at the entrance, and walked out.. didn't check for gas, didn't check for anything else, just walked out again. He didn't even leave the probe there, which probably means he just thought you were 6 pooling or something.
Which explains why he thought he could just wall off zealots a-ok.
I don't know. I'd like to think if this was done against me, I'd do the same as what I do against a 6-pool; a complete wall off with a forge and cannons, and crush with the economy.
On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote: I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them.
I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
i think 3RR, 5RR, and 7RR are all great ways to keep an early aggressive stance and expanding to the second base. Most players around my points, 1600, tend to overreact and build more than they need to fend me off. This is less of a problem for Terran, since they don't warp in a bunch of units at once to try to fight off the RR. The good players will only build enough to hold it back. One thing that I see good Protoss players do is warp in three or four stalkers max and a sentry, which then force fields my roaches into two separate armies.
I haven't tried doing a 3RR, but this is very interesting. I will be trying this soon.
On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote: I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them.
I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups.
TL&DR
Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate.
I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ
On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote: I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them.
I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups.
TL&DR
Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate.
I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ
honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
I tried it against soulwager as well, he went with his FE forge first build, it managed to stop me but actually was closer then I expected (almost knocked the first cannon down with my initial 2 lings, then the roaches managed to pick off a couple others before there were too many warped in). Perhaps if I saw that and focused on more early lings instead of the roaches, hard to say without more testing.
Of course, thats not a standard build, so it's rare you'll encounter it.
For the record, the zergling USUALLY gets out and is able to stop the worker scout so your roach warren will be a surprise. The worker is usually hurt a bit from messing around in your mineral line, so the zergling can cut it down pretty easy if he keeps poking at you. You can pull a drone from the other side of your mineral line too to help corner and cut it down if it's trying to run away from the lings to the other side of your base to continue scouting.
On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote: I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them.
I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups.
TL&DR
Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate.
I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ
honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
Or you could be doing something like suprise FFE? Even the 3 gate expand uses a forge to expand. Forge doesnt automatically mean take the whole map it means slightly later stalkers and a few less units thats all depending on IF you have to spend on cannons early. I didnt say wall off your ramp with cannons and rush to voids or something nooby like that. The +1 upgrade is great in PvZ for a +1 timing attack against a early hatch zerg. This isnt theorycrafting its whats being used by alot of players.
On November 02 2010 04:41 Jayrod wrote: honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
You build the forge only if you scout early pool.
So "lol gl taking the whole map with those 8 drones" is more like it. By the time he gets at your front you got 15+ workers already; if he can't get through your wall, he's screwed.
This strategy is all-in, and like the 7pool all-in, a good wall-off hard-counters it.
On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote: So, here's the build order: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor) 9 Overlord 9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool.
These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down.
Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued.
Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing.
Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds.
On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote: So, here's the build order: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor) 9 Overlord 9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool.
These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down.
Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued.
Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing.
Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds.
Thanks for trying to improve things. I wasn't worrying about getting an extra drone or three because I was thinking my larva are being used as quickly as they are built. Since it's an all-in, I didnt see any reason to try to mine more.
Perhaps I -should- do this, because once a queen pops you could seriously send in a big wave with a larva pop .
There's absolutely no way this won't get scouted. Buildings lings after a 9 roach warren is super, super late and in no way will deny scouting. If scouted, this can be defended pretty easily.
On November 02 2010 06:10 Uhh Negative wrote: There's absolutely no way this won't get scouted. Buildings lings after a 9 roach warren is super, super late and in no way will deny scouting. If scouted, this can be defended pretty easily.
Every cheese can be scouted and still have it win. I'm definitely going to try this.
On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote: So, here's the build order: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor) 9 Overlord 9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool.
These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down.
Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued.
Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing.
Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds.
Thanks for trying to improve things. I wasn't worrying about getting an extra drone or three because I was thinking my larva are being used as quickly as they are built. Since it's an all-in, I didnt see any reason to try to mine more.
Perhaps I -should- do this, because once a queen pops you could seriously send in a big wave with a larva pop .
Another thing you could do with the extra drone version is transition to zerglings more effectively. It seems like this early roach warren couldn't take full advantage of larva injections from a queen since you don't have enough harvesters, but without the queen a zergling transition leaves you with a slightly weaker army overall. OTOH, you could pull guys off gas when your queen is done, inject, and make a larger stream of zerglings to take advantage of a large crack in your opponent's wall. It'd be a nice surprise for an opponent managing to kite with a marauder or stalker or two.
This is ridiculously easy to stop I just faced it today. Once you get a stalker its you can kite everything down. I saw the battle.net forums and winced when i saw players saying it was unbeatable lol. Players just need to be more solid and have better control because it eliminates the million possible strategies such as this one.
On November 02 2010 06:35 Dont Panic wrote: This is ridiculously easy to stop I just faced it today. Once you get a stalker its you can kite everything down. I saw the battle.net forums and winced when i saw players saying it was unbeatable lol. Players just need to be more solid and have better control because it eliminates the million possible strategies such as this one.
Yep, this is indeed true.
But all in all its a nice cheese to try out and have some fun with, but even if you win against players who are a lot higher ranked than you , it certainly will not make you a better player, that is for sure .
On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote: So, here's the build order: 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor) 9 Overlord 9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool.
These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down.
Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued.
Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing.
Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds.
Gave this a go versus T and P in my gold league paddling pool this evening, and it was just embarrassing. I felt obliged to apologise in chat after each game, and point them to this thread for scouting/countering tips. Only loss was to a Terran who happened to send out a marine at just the right time to catch my roaches leaving the base, and dropped a bunker at his ramp with a couple of marauders in it. Even then, things might have worked out differently if I'd had the overlord for vision as recommended by the OP (Out of habit I sent it to the other side of the base on Xel'Naga caverns so it wouldn't get sniped).
Closest game other than that was versus a Protoss who got a lot of Zealots and a Sentry and did a really good job of splitting my early forces and surrounding with probes/zealots. I had to wait for reinforcements before pushing in and ending the game. I felt particularly bad winning that one because his control was much better than mine.
First impressions are that this is a really, really punishing build if your opponent tries to go even slightly tech/econ without an early scout. It's also moronically easy to pull off, so I think we can expect a lot of zerg bubbling up into plat/diamond with it.
Personally, I'm never doing it again. I'd rather go 1/5 practising my macro than 5/0 with this.
Yeah I would say the protoss counter to this is cannons, its all in and one or two cannons behind a zealot wall would block upwards of 5 roaches once warp gate finishes your basically done
I am a Gold level player (so I realize im nothing special at all...), and have lost 3 games in a row due to this.
I have scouted it each time, the first time not knowing what was happening (lol @ me), and the second two making 2 and then 3 cannons at my ramp. The second two times I was able to hold the initial push, but I mis-timed the counter attacks, and it felt like those two cannons should have been stalkers or zelots + sentries.
Can a zerg player who is familiar with this enlighten me as to when you would be most vulnerable to a counter? is it right after I hold the push? what if the roaches just retreat when they see cannons... macro up? The problem with macroing up is that the zerg can contain me until i get WG and decent amount of stalkers, so he has pleanty of time to make up the drone count or expand...
Haploid's calculator is currently bugged with respect to extractor tricks, the double extractor trick including the drones seems to cost the same as a single extractor trick (which in turn seems not to return 19 minerals) which makes a double extractor trick look way more attractive than it really is.
Can a zerg player who is familiar with this enlighten me as to when you would be most vulnerable to a counter? is it right after I hold the push? what if the roaches just retreat when they see cannons... macro up? The problem with macroing up is that the zerg can contain me until i get WG and decent amount of stalkers, so he has pleanty of time to make up the drone count or expand...
There is no problem with macroing up. If his early push fails, your economy is way ahead of his, and once you have a decent amount of stalkers you can push out and end the game.
This build is a coin flip like every other cheese. Replays of a win against a good player is a good example but anyone can lose to cheese. Just look at how fruitdealer 6pooled ogsinca on a crossmap kulas/LT spawn (i forget which)
There seems to be quite a few people testing this out in custom games right now. I just went on to practice this on SOW in a custom and I had 2 zergs disconnect once the countdown timer started. Once they saw the mirror they dc. lol
Its interesting... and def comes very fast.. but I usually scout early vs zerg and if I don't see a hatch i prepare for the all in or at least pretty early pressure.
I am just not sure how better terran lose to this.. they would have to really fail at scouting i think. I am going to play some practice games and see how my scout timing and compares.. I feel like maybe on 4 spawn location maps it might get the jump on me.. but I feel like I can micro by the time that those roaches hit. Maybe thats just because I have a very aggressive early play style vs zerg.
I will post the results laters with how are games went.
Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed.
It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing.
Wow have you noticed he could have killed your last cannon when it was warping and probably won if he had noticed his 2 -4 idle roaches outside his base. This looks extremely strong even when you scouted and prepared. Perhaps more cannons and skipping the cyber with zealots and probes to hold them off while the cannons build.
edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9.
edit2: btw, I don't know how much difference it makes, but its always better to delay extractor and put 3 drones in it, then pull one out, then put 2 in it from the start. You lose however many seconds of mining time from the extracter drone, just a minor thing.
So let me get this straight, you open up the Zerg BO optimizer program, let it run for a while, paste the build orders it generates, then claim they are build orders you have been devising?
Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed.
It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing.
Wow have you noticed he could have killed your last cannon when it was warping and probably won if he had noticed his 2 -4 idle roaches outside his base. This looks extremely strong even when you scouted and prepared. Perhaps more cannons and skipping the cyber with zealots and probes to hold them off while the cannons build.
edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9.
edit2: btw, I don't know how much difference it makes, but its always better to delay extractor and put 3 drones in it, then pull one out, then put 2 in it from the start. You lose however many seconds of mining time from the extracter drone, just a minor thing.
Uh... Skipping the Cyber imo is a really bad idea. If you build zealots you -will- get kited. You need stalkers to kill Roaches with any real efficiency. I saw dropped the Forge pretty soon after I scouted the warren, but it could've been faster. You'll also notice I'm not the best at staying calm and while frantically microing, I neglected to build more stalkers and the like.
I don't doubt this flat out beats 2 gate zealot. You need to open 1gatecore or forge first to stand a chance at holding this.
Roaches also rip through cannons. You can see that I put them down when the roaches are halfway to my base, and they are killed before they finish. If this was Steppes of War or close position metalopolis, I would've had to GG.
Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed.
It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing.
Wow have you noticed he could have killed your last cannon when it was warping and probably won if he had noticed his 2 -4 idle roaches outside his base. This looks extremely strong even when you scouted and prepared. Perhaps more cannons and skipping the cyber with zealots and probes to hold them off while the cannons build.
edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9.
edit2: btw, I don't know how much difference it makes, but its always better to delay extractor and put 3 drones in it, then pull one out, then put 2 in it from the start. You lose however many seconds of mining time from the extracter drone, just a minor thing.
Uh... Skipping the Cyber imo is a really bad idea. If you build zealots you -will- get kited. You need stalkers to kill Roaches with any real efficiency. I saw dropped the Forge pretty soon after I scouted the warren, but it could've been faster. You'll also notice I'm not the best at staying calm and while frantically microing, I neglected to build more stalkers and the like.
I don't doubt this flat out beats 2 gate zealot. You need to open 1gatecore or forge first to stand a chance at holding this.
Roaches also rip through cannons. You can see that I put them down when the roaches are halfway to my base, and they are killed before they finish. If this was Steppes of War or close position metalopolis, I would've had to GG.
Well I see that you scouted it before your gate was finished, I'm just wondering if delaying the gas/cyber and throwing down a forge even before gateway was finished would ensure at least 2 cannons finished before the roaches arrived even on close spawns.
I often go zealot, sentry instead of zealot, stalker as my first units vs zerg. The sentry I imagine would halt this push pretty nicely and buy you time to get some more units up/ pull probes well
Ok i've tested it a bit and I found it doesn't work. It's so ridiculously easy to scout it doesn't really work. marine into tech lab with bunker + repair fends it off easily. Walling off completely with forge + gateway into 2 cannons shuts it down as well.
edit: man I feel betrayed, I thought this would work and then I rewatched all the replays and only 1 /3 actually scouted it. It's impossible to deny the scout and 2 of them didnt scout it. I'm putting this into the folder of cheese that doesnt work vs worthwile players. Op I'm a bit disaapointed that most of the replays you put up, your all in isnt scouted and the best part about all-ins in general are that they are hard to scout. This is easier to scout then a 6 pool so, I'm a bit mislead.
edit: btw Im 90% sure husky coined the destiny cloudfist build not day9.
Yes, Husky did.
Nice build, tried it out against AI, will try it against real humans
And I think there is a "transission" out of it. Why can't these roaches just be an early pressure, and after building like 4-5 roache you can't just go back to normal game mode, droneing up/build queens and stuff?
On November 02 2010 00:46 Ncinerate wrote: I'm beating -good- players with this. I think it's stronger than a 6 pool+drone attack (which always seems to fail for me).
Just watched, and the guys you played are not good. Sorry man, all Terran has to do is make a bunker.
I can't speak about how this works in ZvP, so maybe it works there.
I've ben doing the same almost for few weeks(3) now but with peaking on 10 supply.
I didn't read your post really (yet) because i have to go now BUT...
... 3RR allin where you send workers too is pretty powerfull and sadly I'm not @diamond so i cannot test it. In platinium it worked literally 10times out of 10times. It's alot about micro.
After trying this a little bit I got to say I don't like it that much.
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there. The problem is that you're all-in and he's not. All he has to do is hold on 20-30 sec and his much superior economy will kick in. I could see this build working vs a 1/1/1 Terran who doesn't bunker up, but this shouldn't be common enough to doing this build blindly every game vs Terran.
I think I prefer the 7RR as far as roaches all-in goes. With this 3RR you got horrible economy, working on 1hatch/no queen, so if it fails to outright snap your opponent's neck, you lost. With the 7RR you do have the option to somewhat stay in the game by droning up during your push instead of reinforcing constantly. If he's prepared for a 7RR you can either camp his base to prevent FE or turn tail and use your roaches to prevent any form of harassment. If he's prepared for a 3RR, or even if he made a blind build that counters it, it's over.
depending on spawn loc and building placement you can often snipe the techlab before they can finish a maurader. from there its GG if they don't have the bunker down
I tried this on xel Naga Caverns vs a Protoss. He blocked off his ramp after scouting early pool. He had good simcity so I couldn't take out a pylon, even with vis shooting from below I got just a cannon and that was it. What should you do if u encounter a Protoss walloff?
On November 01 2010 23:49 johanngrunt wrote: 3 seems like a good number. one shots workers and marines.
Will try it out. Even though you say it is all in, do you think there is any way to transition out of it?
It seems like there is no option out of it. The build involves not making any workers after the initial ones, so it would be very difficult to catch up to the opponents worker count.
I had this tried on me in ladder yesterday, it has a major flaw, its super easy to scout as the zerg has no units, i sent my worker on 12 and scouted the roach warren, and immediatly put up 2 bunkers and brough a couple scvs to repair. the bunker finished about 10 seconds before the roaches got there, so it was damn close, but easily scoutable.
On November 02 2010 14:59 bone577 wrote: So let me get this straight, you open up the Zerg BO optimizer program, let it run for a while, paste the build orders it generates, then claim they are build orders you have been devising?
No. And if you'd tried exactly that you'd see why.
The evolution chamber is a cool program, but if you let it run on THIS particular problem it comes up with a several-second faster solution that doesn't give you enough drones to continue roach production.
This wasn't exactly a hard strategy to "devise" though. I started by theorycrafting that maybe a 6 pool could be modified into a 6 pool into roaches. It turns out you lack the drones to get roach production up if you do that. So I tried a 7 pool, 8 pool, and finally a 9 pool. I was looking for the fastest possible roaches with continued roach production when larva spawn.
This is what I found. It's not rocket science. I used all resources at my disposal though, if the build order optimizer would have come up with a BETTER build I would have -absolutely- used and posted about it (with a note that the build had come from the optimizer, because it's awesome and I appreciate the work they are putting into it). Allow me to explain why:
A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time.
A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time.
On November 02 2010 14:59 bone577 wrote: So let me get this straight, you open up the Zerg BO optimizer program, let it run for a while, paste the build orders it generates, then claim they are build orders you have been devising?
A long long time ago, Henry Ford built one of the first automobiles on the planet. He became one of the only people in the world who knew how to build an automobile. Did he build it from scratch? Did he know how to mine the metals, produce a lightbulb for a headlight, draw rubber from a tree in south america? No. He built upon the tools and resources he had available at the time.
I'm new user here and i decided to register to ask question about this tactics. U said in ur build order to make pair of zerglings to deny scouting. with all respect do u honestly believe that its not a bit pointless as u put roach warren way before those lings spawn? I dont rly see the reason in spawning them coz if u get scouted u wont be able to change build anyway and if he wont scout u at all those lings wont matter anyway as u are dedicated to do this all-in rush. Reason why i wonder about it is simple.
If u go 10 pool, make drone, make 2 extractors at 150 minerals and 2 drones, cancel 1 extractor (11/10 food now), make overlord put 2 drones on gas and put roach warren when pool finish (10/18) now u got time to spawn one more overlord making it 10/26 and as soon as roach warren ends u got enough to make 3 roaches - now u can make roaches constantly without making "space" for overlord and at 24/26 u should have enough to make queen or at 26/26 make overlord and continue with roaches. This is not rly much slower - few seconds - and make roaches reinforcement more stable and fluent.
I would also wish to see some more replays if possible from high ranked terrans. Thx and great threat.
On November 02 2010 22:15 Phrencys wrote: After trying this a little bit I got to say I don't like it that much.
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there.
Oddly enough, that's exactly what I hoped to see in the games where I used this build. 4-5 marines are a light snack for three roaches, and they can't kite because the roaches will just focus down the depot wall instead. At that point, one/two marauders would be all he gets to make (only one alive at any given time) because my first priority is to focus down the tech lab. As long as my reinforcements keep trickling in, he can't get enough marauders to turn the tables before I do that. After tech labs, my next target is supply depots. I avoid killing SCVs for as long as possible because that frees up supply for him to make units. In fact, I avoid pushing into his base at all until I have a really solid number of roaches, enough to kite and slaughter his SCVs easily.
I actually take back what I said earlier about it being moronically easy to pull off. It's easy to execute the opening build order, fair enough, but it's pretty micro intensive at the ramp and requires good decision-making. Every roach is crucial. Wounded ones need to be moved to the back. Picking your targets, scouting his base with a single roach - there are a lot of little ways to tip a marginal situation in your favour. I might allow myself to do it once a day, maybe, just to practice that kind of play. I'm not saying it's by any objective standard 'difficult', but at my skill level I definitely notice a lot of room for improvement in my execution, so there's some value in practicing it.
On November 02 2010 22:15 Phrencys wrote: After trying this a little bit I got to say I don't like it that much.
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there.
At that point, one/two marauders would be all he gets to make (only one alive at any given time) because my first priority is to focus down the tech lab. As long as my reinforcements keep trickling in, he can't get enough marauders to turn the tables before I do that. After tech labs, my next target is supply depots. I avoid killing SCVs for as long as possible because that frees up supply for him to make units. In fact, I avoid pushing into his base at all until I have a really solid number of roaches, enough to kite and slaughter his SCVs easily.
If he has 1 marauder up, is it your top priority? Like, what is your priority order ? 1) Marine (since they're 1shotted by 3 roaches) 2) Marauder (since they destroy roaches) 3) Tech Lab (no moar marauders) 4) Supply Depot
On November 02 2010 22:32 baconbits wrote: depending on spawn loc and building placement you can often snipe the techlab before they can finish a maurader. from there its GG if they don't have the bunker down
Killing a techlab won't stop production on a marauder that is already building. You can kill the techlab to delay/prevent more marauders from being made, but that first one will just finish anyway. But still killing the techlab is pretty huge since it is a rather significant delay to additional marauder production (if the techlab is ever allowed to refinish) - which they would still be in trouble if they didn't have a bunker but not an auto loss.
On November 03 2010 02:01 Fargoth wrote: I've gotten to the point where instead of a second depot in my wall I put a bunker instead. Stopped a 7 roach rush dead yesterday.
You would do, he should have scouted and not done the rush, Whenever they have a bunker any rush is almost certain to fail.
Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
Some zerg tried doing it to my terran earlier on steppes. Had a marauder and a marine when it came, wasn't too hard to hold off with the reinforcements from 2 then 3 rax with tech lab.
On November 03 2010 02:32 cosmicTrex wrote: Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
Really bad to pin your plan on the supposition of no scouting >_<
On November 03 2010 02:32 cosmicTrex wrote: Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
The difference is, a typical scout timing will arrive around the time the roach warren in put down, plenty of time to prepare and clearly an all in roach attack. If it only works against people who never scout, it's clearly not a viable strategy.
I wasn't arguing it was a 100% always viable strat. I'm still willing to roll the dice on it every now and then though.
BTW, it just worked for me. It was almost scouted. I say almost because the Toss player I was facing got distracted by a drone I sent to my natural to fake an early expo. He never even went up to my main.
what i have seen from replay i can tell you that your oponents were horrible... terran had like 400 minerals just there at one point early in a game and he even didnt scout you proply, didnt see you roach warden when he was at your base.. i doubt it will work much
2 rines in a bunker with 3 scv's easily counters this. 3 roaches doesn't quite reach the ctitical mass required. By the time the roaches arrive its easy to have 3 rines in bunker with a secondary rax well on the way with plentiful gas for tech lab on 2nd rax. By the time reinforcement roaches arrive (bout 20 secs later) the rines would have killed at least 1 or 2 roaches. Having said that I've never faced this rush before and more than likely would assume a 7rr or similar after scouting so i think its a cool rush since a lot of terrans would fall prey to it including me (before i see it demonstrated) Actually its a right pain in the arse coz now i am going to have to change my build order against the zerg yet again to take account of it. I know a lot of terrans have been complaining about the roach buff lately and its fair to say zerg have gained a much needed boost but i really think zerg rush open repertoires easily out do both protos and terran... cannon rushing the zerg aint easy coz of the creep, same as terran bunker rush. zerg are pretty safe from cheesy rushes as of now which imo isn't balanced.
in that respect i think blizzard should at least increase the build time of the roach warren by 5 secs or so. I feel more for protos at this stage as their early defensive options seem the most limited. Back to the rush itself I am sure a lot of rush merchants are gonna love this one which in my opinion is way better than standard ling rush. It may not have much future if it fails but until it becomes a common strat its going to rack up a lot of early wins.
On November 03 2010 02:01 Phrencys wrote: If he has 1 marauder up, is it your top priority? Like, what is your priority order ? 1) Marine (since they're 1shotted by 3 roaches) 2) Marauder (since they destroy roaches) 3) Tech Lab (no moar marauders) 4) Supply Depot
Is that it?
If there are no marauders, I just kill all marines. If there's a marauder, I wait for 4th roach, then kill marauder, then marines (there won't be as many because of techlab+marauder build time), then techlab, ignoring fresh marines until it's dead. Then start on depots. Don't know if this is optimal though.
Somebody did this build on my yesterday. It was ZvP on Xel'Naga, I went for a forge FE. When I scouted the roach warren was at like 25%, I put up 3 cannons, a 2nd rax then a core. When they arrived I had 3 cannons and 1 zealot up, the roaches kited the zealot then found holes in my cannons. They were able to pick off my core before I got more than 2 stalkers out, but I eventually repelled. He delayed my probes enough to come out ahead and eventually beat me 2 bases to 2 bases.
I think had my sim-city been better, this should've been no problem to me. The core should've been up my ramp and the cannons could've been placed better. Overall I think forge FE hard counters this in most scenarios. Remember Xel'Naga has a wide open expansion so forge FE isn't as easy to pull off.
Huh? Zerg already had the 6-pool, which is even more all-in than a Protoss cannon rush. Terrans don't have any threats that early.
Not quite true terran still has the highly risky but doable bunker rush via a proxy rax (inside) the main zerg base but its very hard to achieve since 1.2 (depot before rax) I've pulled that one off a few times myself when i am in a gambling mood ...its the most intense rush available to the terran imo since virtually all the time is spent just waiting and waiting for the rax and first bunker to finish which at any point can be scouted ...thereafter its a fifty fifty deal since the creep makes it really hard to get close enough to do good ecconomic damage. Very much all in ...no way back if it fails but still possible all the same.
Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.
Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.
On November 03 2010 05:39 Kelsin wrote: Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.
Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.
This is pretty much what i thought when I read this. I recently switched to Zerg and I did so because I like the macro game. If i really felt like going all-in all the time just to get some fancy avatars unlocked real quick I would probably stay protoss and 4gate -_-.
I would'nt mind so much about going all-in if it wasn't so common... in every 2nd game I play on the ladder someone does some hudge 1base-push (mostly Terrans and Toss obviously... but there's also a lot of cheese in ZvZ). That makes it pretty hard to get better in the late game.
I don't wanna be too critical though. It's a nice build to know... you could use it some time. For example if you play in some tournament and your opponent chooses Steppes of War or something like that. I just don't like the idea of doing it all the time. I would prefer to see some kind of 3 roach pressure opening into macro game (preferably with a more economic build than 9 pool).
ZvT, Terrans just throw up a bunker and ZvZ, zergs can just pool out of it.
But toss really cant do anything except besides a complete wall off with cannons and probes, but even that hasn't stopped me yet. Just a few lings help vs kiting stalkers, so skip a roach and build some lings if you are having trouble with that.
I'm going to continue doing this every zvp until somebody can beat it.
On November 02 2010 01:24 metalsonic wrote: and skyro what do u do when the zerg decides to build a spawning pool + baneling nest , banelings really hard counter gate forge openings , or is it just me doing something wrong ?
Two words Force Field.
Personally, I think roach buff was completely uncalled for on Blizzard's part. For real? You're gonna buff unit that's virtually unstoppable for toss unless you go robo tech for Protoss? Thanks Blizz. Add that to another superiority of Zerg list on top of imba mutalisks. (taking upgrades into account) Also, stalkers hardly counter roaches anymore even pre-speed upgrade now since their range is so long, while you're kiting, you are more than likely to get hit while they have damage superiority.
Also, I just had someone do a 5 roach all in with drones, where drones just ghost walked through my blocked choke then sniped out stalker. Yeah, talk about unstoppable. It was done at steppes, where it really was virtually impossible to get a sentry out in time unless you give up on getting stalker out first, even though you know roaches are in route.By the way, drones ghostwalk through FF too so yeah...
I didn't see this done to meyet. I've seen some early roaches and if i scout it (i play terran) i will ofc put down a bunker. If it's not scouted it might work, depending on micro. If i ever stumble on the ladder on a 3rr i'll let you know the results and post the replay if it's interesting.
i did some games to practis this build and it is semi sucesfull, this SHOULDN'T work vs good protoss due to stalker range and speed vs roaches, we did about 20 games straight, (i also did other builds thrown in so he didn't do a build that was designed to counter it), but generally, the best counter was a fast FF of ramp and once stalkers are in pair's good mirco and zealot/probe screening will be best counter.
i made my freind sweat hard mircoing though, one thing we did learn though was that walling at the ramp vs zerg doesn't seem to be the best option anymore, (as 6-8 pools probes and zealots can win, depending on the goodness of the sourround)
also, if you scout that early Roach warren, i sugguest you suicde your zealot to kill drones, trust me, this build is soo tight 1-2 drones lost = not enough money to keep producing the roaches, giving more breathing room.
After like 5 games this will not work vs terran. As soon as i see the no hatch I lay the bunker down and always defend it and obviously this puts me ahead enough to win. I still see this very viable vs toss, but for any good terran i think if they recognize the all-in if they lay the bunker its GG.
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote: nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that
lol... Drewbie, just lol.
I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote: nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that
lol... Drewbie, just lol.
I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?
Ofc it is, but like every other strategy everything has flaws. Firstly he doesn't need mass maruaders to defend this with bunker, even one will probably do. Even if they do get quite a big army he will scout you and realise something is up and pushout with his army, you won't get mutas enough to defend the push or even close to enough mutas and you'll die. That early spawning pool will hit your ecenomy real hard aswell giving him a sweet advantage.
I would recommend never to do this vs and semi-good terran or zerg and never vs any good protoss since all of these players will scout it and react otherwise. Like I said even if you cancell it he will have a economical advantage and if you decide to drone nothing stops him from stomping you with a army.
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote: nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that
lol... Drewbie, just lol.
I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?
No. The 9pool is a huge economic commitment that can't be transitioned out of without significant damage being dealt. Forcing an early army is not enough damage to justify a 9pool. Once he notices that Roaches aren't coming, he'll realize he has an immense army lead and just kill you. Your Mutas won't be out for a long time after.
I played this build tonight about 10 times in a row in custom games. Played mostly players in the 1100 Diamond range and found that it was scouted every.single.time, however, very few people prepared properly for the attack.
The best response by toss seems to be sending a very fast zealot to kill a couple of drones before the roaches pop, after that, the rush is dead. Toss can also FF the ramp and bring out stalkers quickly, but I had some success against that because instead of 3 roaches entering the base, I waited for my reinforcements and enter the base with 5-6 roaches.
For Terran, the obvious response is to place a quick bunker and repair.
Final thought say that it's very easy to stop if scouted, but it's a very powerful build if your opponent hasn't seen it before and doesn't prepare.
That said, I think it's important to try out all sorts of cheese builds, if one ever arises that really IS impossible to stop, it proves a true imbalance and can be fixed, and if not, it helps keep players sharp in the early game.
I'm sure this has been said a billion times, but instead of putting only 2 drones on gas, make the gas later and put 3 drones on gas, and pull one drone off as you start making the Roaches. This way you get way more minerals.
I can't picture this working against many opponents. As you mentioned this is an all-in strategy and may possibly work one time.
So whats the transition from this 3RR when a toss goes 12 gate, 15 gate and double chronos boosts 2 stalkers to poke around your base initially and gladly finds your 3 roaches then proceeds to kite them as they are traveling off creep towards the toss base?
Seems better for 2 v 2 now that I think about it. Maybe take over 6 pool being the default rush build for zergs. Noticed 2 players doing something similar in a day9 daily.
On November 04 2010 05:50 InfC.AnatoLiy wrote: I can't picture this working against many opponents. As you mentioned this is an all-in strategy and may possibly work one time.
So whats the transition from this 3RR when a toss goes 12 gate, 15 gate and double chronos boosts 2 stalkers to poke around your base initially and gladly finds your 3 roaches then proceeds to kite them as they are traveling off creep towards the toss base?
There's noway you could get 2 stalkers into the zerg base on any map at the 3:40 mark to poke around, that suggests to me you don't understand this rush. Come back after you've checked out your own timings. I also think you are missing the point of this rush. If you've never faced this rush before and lets face it the "The lightning Ragnarok Majesty" is relatively new ...panick can and most likely will set in. when there are three roaches knocking at your door so early (4 minute mark) its not so easy to think logically and say to yourself everything is cool there's no transition ...all the while the roaches are burning down your house. and there's more roaches on route. Sure, now that the 3 roach rush has become a recognised strat its easy in hindsight to deal with it. On the ladder though at most levels it still has a lot of potential, not every sc2 player has access to this forum so it still has potential to not only win fast but also screw up established build orders which perhaps isn't such a bad thing. It adds yet another level of anxiety for both protoss and terran players.
On a sidenote Blizzard often pride themselves on how balanced all 3 races are but in reality zerg easily have the most potential for early rushes. Some top level ladder players can maintain their position using such cheese without ever really being skillful so in that respect i think blizzard have to rethink the current inbalance unless they are happy that a bag of cheese can earn you a platinum position whilst there's hundreds if not thousands of bronze players that would kick their sorry arses if zerg didn't have these strats available.
On November 03 2010 05:39 Kelsin wrote: Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.
Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.
Knowing cheeses is a big advantage in tournaments or any series matches where you are playing to win. It's very useful. It's not supposed to be a consistent game winner, it's supposed to be applied when you think your opponent might be playing greedy/susceptible to it and you care about winning.
If you are just playing to get better then it's not useful to practice true.
I don't know where you get the Korean vs. American thing, everyone says Koreans play super cheesy/experimentally (I think they just play more so they know more styles).
BTW what's Lightning Ragnarok Majesty? The names of the 3 roaches? lol
This strategy would hurt me pretty badly if I encountered it without having fought it before, especially because I suck at scouting, and often simply don't do it at all. While I generally have a Barracks+Tech Lab by 3:00, and a Factory+Tech Lab complete by 5:00, my first Marauder normally shows sometime between 4:30-5:30, ultimately aiming for a SCV+Marauder+Thor Rush.
If I saw the Roaches coming, I'd probably lose the 1st Marauder fighting them, while queuing up a Tank, and hopefully another Marauder. Assuming that panic doesn't cause me to screw up royally, I'd order my entire mineral line to run to the Factory as the Tank finishes, than have them mob-repair my Tank while it shoots your little bugs. See, it takes only 2.3 SCVs to repair a Tank as fast as 1.0 Roach can damage it. 3 or even 5 Roaches isn't gonna be enough. I'll take some losses, but nothing I can't recover from.
Overall, I'd say that the key to beating this rush is calling in your workers. The workers can surround and damage the Roaches while Marines/Stalkers shoot them with impunity, and while they might lose some workers, it won't matter given the difference in economies. The key, of course, is for the opponent to realize that they can afford to attack with their workers. In the games I saw, they always sent their workers to attack AFTER their military had been pwned.
Granted I did not watch the replay but now I did. Your 3 roaches came out at ~3:40 and arrive at his base at ~4:25. My 2 gate stalker opening begins the chronos boosting at 3:38-3:48 and are both usually out at 4:12-4:18. Keep in mind you were close air spawned metalopolis which allowed you to see what he is doing to shoot from down the ramp and relatively close spawn travel locations.
Stalkers out-range and out move roaches so this would never work on me or anyone else that opens with 2 quick poking stalkers. Granted I wouldn't be able to meet you half-way as I thought before watching your metalopolis replay but my ability to defend with 2 stalkers while 3rd and 4th is building would deny any advances you attempt (especially if I eventually add a sentry in the mix).
On November 04 2010 06:59 InfC.AnatoLiy wrote: Granted I did not watch the replay but now I did. Your 3 roaches came out at ~3:40 and arrive at his base at ~4:25. My 2 gate stalker opening begins the chronos boosting at 3:38-3:48 and are both usually out at 4:12-4:18. Keep in mind you were close air spawned metalopolis which allowed you to see what he is doing to shoot from down the ramp and relatively close spawn travel locations.
Stalkers out-range and out move roaches so this would never work on me or anyone else that opens with 2 quick poking stalkers. Granted I wouldn't be able to meet you half-way as I thought before watching your metalopolis replay but my ability to defend with 2 stalkers while 3rd and 4th is building would deny any advances you attempt (especially if I eventually add a sentry in the mix).
This isn't my rush, neither did i supply the replays. I like the rush as its very creative but don't respect ppl that rely on it exclusively or any other rush for that matter. Agreed it can be countered by many standard openers and certainly isn't a 100% autowin. I think the op has done us all a favour by drawing our attention to it tho.
Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed.
It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing.
Imho I feel that he used his roaches wrong. He was focused too much on the stalker, and not enough on your eco. If he used them to pour in more and ruin your economy steadily, he'd face himself sooner or later. But yea, this guy rushed so hard that he didn't pay attention to >anything< aside making roaches and kill stalkers
Here is a replay of this being used against me, and it failed.
It was really friggen scary though, excellent early pressure, very hard for Protoss to deal with this kind of thing.
Well he was slow with drone production... he is about 10 seconds late on both his second and third drone with is 37% of their build time. And because of this he could only build 2 out of the first batch of three roaches. Then he pulled back to kill a probe which he should have left or used his two lings to kill while it was spotted by the XWT. Finally when he was in your base he spent 20 seconds killing cannons. 20 seconds = 10 shots = 10 dead probes or 1 dead pylon since + 6 dead probes keeping you food capped. He kept trying to engage in places he shouldn't have.
Rule A of rushing - do for sure damage and as much as you can. With the first three roaches and lings if he would have just killed your stalker let your cannon finished, and gone and killed workers, he would have won.
It is a poor execution of the strat, and poor rush mechanics sorry to tell you.
On November 03 2010 02:01 Fargoth wrote: I've gotten to the point where instead of a second depot in my wall I put a bunker instead. Stopped a 7 roach rush dead yesterday.
that's exactly what's stopping my roaches in both variants (3 and 5). If there's a bunker close enough, roaches aren't doing really well in which case you can just give up the push and start macroing trying to contain the terran.
Bronze leaguer here, been having great fun with this build, thanks! Had to share my experience using this build yesterday: vs. Terran on Jungle Basin, my scouting ovie rocks up to his ramp about 10 secs ahead of my first 3 roaches, and to my dismay, he hasn't walled off. Crestfallen, I pull my 2 drones off gas and get some lings going thinking this'll be an easy runby.
As my roaches enter his base, I look across at the ramp down to his nat, and realise it's completely walled off. That's right. He had walled off the wrong goddamn ramp, blocking off his expansion rather than the field. This leaves me free to squish his rines with my first 3 roaches and go lingwild in his base. Almost couldn't finish him cause I was laughing so hard.
Right now I don't think I ever want to leave the Bronze leagues. Too much fun to be had down here
My 7rr/any roach rush isn't working at all. It might kill protoss but Terran easily defends it. You need the roach warren relatively early and the scv is gonna scout it. No lings means easy scout and 2 lings don't really help much. Also toss can do stuff like pylon wall + cannon ur ramp which will basically end any rush.
Ok so I played 3 games so far with this. All opponents were around 1300 to 1500 diamond level. I played against 2 toss and 1 terran. The toss were really easy to beat even after they scouted it. First toss just went on with usual build order and I killed his 1 stalker and then most of his probes. Other toss put down a forge but I killed the cannons before they warped in and then killed his probes. The terran went for early marauders off 2 rax into factory. The game took a while and ended with a battle between like 12 roaches and 4 marauders and 1 tank.
Roaches absolutely own workers, If they pull workers off I see this as a bonus because they fall so quickly and do little damage and then they cannot produce anything after that
Played 2 games with this vs a 1500~ diamond toss and won both games.
The first game he went for a 2 gate core, had 4 zealots by the time by roaches arrived, needless to say he lost.
Second game he knew that i would 3RR, so he went 1gate core for early stalkers, he had 2 stalkers by the time my 3 roaches arrived. I won by focusing down the pylons, and microing the roach which he was focusing down (Example: His 2 stalkers focus one, move that one back, if he tries to follow it, my other two roaches focus the stalkers down. When he switches targets, do it again.), while my other two beat on his pylons. After I killed 1 pylon, 2 more roaches came, killed the other pylon, and then killed his stalkers with ~5 roaches. He lost the game.
Pretty novel build, although I feel like once this spreads around the community, it is easily scouted and will be countered just as well, similar to the baneling bust. I won 3 out of the 4 times I used this build, and here's a replay showing what to do as toss when you see this coming, namely, get stalkers and block up your ramp so the roaches are forced to hit buildings to break in, while your stalker count goes up.
Definitely have to try this. I play quite a few BO5 rounds against my toss buddy, and he's wised up to the 14 pool 16 hatch AND the 6 pool. I'll definitely toss this in the mix.
Gold player here, tried this yesterday, had decent results all in all with this build, the problems I had was mainly if the protoss had several pylons supporting the gates, or he went fast stalkers.
I tried this on a terran and had problems with a bunker =P, ended up failing. Still looks pretty better than 6 pool, maybe this could be the standard zerg cheese now on, lol. He had just one marauder but he retreated to the bunker and went back to give some shots while I was killing the workers. I couldn't micro very well since my pc is crappy and delays every single command but, excuses aside, looked very winnable. I'll give it some more shots.
Game Summary: He starts the game by putting a pylon in my base, and, according to the build, i throw down the 9 pool just after. He immediately starts BMing me, calling me a retard for pooling instead of killing the pylon. I put down gas at 10, and he starts laughing at me for doing so. My build timings were to say the least... PERFECT. I had 225 minerals and 76 gas when his zealot came and instantly I made 3 roaches. Needless to say, he got roflstomped.
This game is a great example of a 3RR and why not to BM people in ladder.. although its also hilarious to watch the mood of the guy and his BM when he sees the roaches pop.
EDIT: When the game was played, I was a 1042 diamond. Mr. BM was a 1281.
I've tried this out quite a few times, and it's not very effective against terran, a few marauds can be microed to outrange the roaches even without bunker. It's an effective build but just not an auto win, and if scouted, very easily countered.
it seems to be a rather all in strat either it works and u win or it fails and u screwed depends how well ur opponent scouts and whether they have certain things integrated into their builds e.g. a terran going for fast tanks will throw down a bunker
On November 08 2010 12:05 Felix_mk wrote: You should really give credit to the "Evolution Chamber" programm for coming up with this build and the 7rr...
I would, but evolution chamber didn't come up with this - I did.
Try it for yourself, evolution chamber comes up with a different solution with less drones (less ability to produce roaches after the initial push due to less drones with 3 roaches out @ 3:31). I use evolution chamber all the time these days, and I really think it helps me round my build orders down - it wasn't necessary or helpful in THIS particular instance.
It's not like this was a difficult build order to "come up with" though. I wanted to build 3 really quick roaches with enough income to continue building them. My initial thought was perhaps I'd modify a 6 pool to build roaches - that was slow and not effective due to lack of drones. I slowly inched the pools up over a handful of games and this is what I came up with. It took less than an hour total to come up with the idea, test the build, and win a few games with it on the ladder.
And of course, the evo chamber absolutely came up with the 7RR, and so did I, and so did lots of other people with virtually identical builds throughout the last handful of months. There was no attempt to skirt credit-where-credit was due, coincidences happen. I'm not looking to argue here though, I am simply attempting to share ideas with teamliquid forum dwellers.
On November 07 2010 04:08 Warp wrote: Game Summary: He starts the game by putting a pylon in my base, and, according to the build, i throw down the 9 pool just after. He immediately starts BMing me, calling me a retard for pooling instead of killing the pylon. I put down gas at 10, and he starts laughing at me for doing so. My build timings were to say the least... PERFECT. I had 225 minerals and 76 gas when his zealot came and instantly I made 3 roaches. Needless to say, he got roflstomped.
This game is a great example of a 3RR and why not to BM people in ladder.. although its also hilarious to watch the mood of the guy and his BM when he sees the roaches pop.
EDIT: When the game was played, I was a 1042 diamond. Mr. BM was a 1281.
I've learned to have low expectations for self-posted replays, but this is one of the funniest things I've seen in SC2. You didn't just win that game, you struck a blow for everyone who's ever been cheesed by a classless douche.
On November 07 2010 04:08 Warp wrote: New counter to 2 gate?? :O
Game Summary: He starts the game by putting a pylon in my base, and, according to the build, i throw down the 9 pool just after. He immediately starts BMing me, calling me a retard for pooling instead of killing the pylon. I put down gas at 10, and he starts laughing at me for doing so. My build timings were to say the least... PERFECT. I had 225 minerals and 76 gas when his zealot came and instantly I made 3 roaches. Needless to say, he got roflstomped.
This game is a great example of a 3RR and why not to BM people in ladder.. although its also hilarious to watch the mood of the guy and his BM when he sees the roaches pop.
EDIT: When the game was played, I was a 1042 diamond. Mr. BM was a 1281.
Dude, epic .
This game was hilarious, absolutely 100% hilarious. That enemy was a total and complete tool, I'm extremely glad the 3RR managed to wipe him.
Here is a replay of me playing a 1742 terran on LT. He didn't scout much due to him trying to block my natural. He went 1/1/1 and didn't really have much to defend and his bunker had to be put too far away to defend his buildings.
Seems like with all other cheese strats, it's really hard to stop unless if you scout it well.
Also, it seems like I always start to stockpile gas once I build my 4-5th roach. Do you guys pull one drone on and off to try to keep your gas low or just let it stockpile a bit?
Cheers mate this build rocks when you want some fast micro battles! Me and my friend are currently owning people left and right with this build while my friend makes a nice amount of barracks then we bunker up at the weakest players main and clear them out! Peace!
On November 02 2010 00:46 Ncinerate wrote: I'm beating -good- players with this. I think it's stronger than a 6 pool+drone attack (which always seems to fail for me).
I know armchair quarterbacking denies the effectiveness, but if you guys give it a shot I think you'll be pleasantly surprised .
This looks awesome I'm gonna try this as soon as I get home, lol @ armchair qbing, thanks for the bo
Seems like this build has some pretty early power. I dont know about other people, but I play toss and I always open with zealot sentry out by the 4 minute mark. So I would probably (provided I scouted some for of early aggression, FF at the top of the ramp to trap 2 of the roaches out and try to kill the third, pulling probes if more got in than I wanted while CB'ing a stalker. Then it becomes an issue of kiting roaches while the next stalker builds and pulling probes to hold off the roaches. Sounds pretty dangerous but not unmanageable.
It's another build that takes advantage of the fact that toss D is terribly inefficient for the first few minutes of the game.
Just curious, but how exactly will you deny the scout in time for the roach warren to go down as soon as you'd like it to? Seems like the lings will be a bit late. The build does seem quite solid on a 1v1 map though, and even a bunker with 1 marine in it can't prevent the roaches from busting down the supply depo wall, especially with reinforcements rallied. Just speculation on my part though, haven't actually tested against this.
On November 09 2010 06:21 Tofuicecream wrote: Just curious, but how exactly will you deny the scout in time for the roach warren to go down as soon as you'd like it to?
It's difficult. That's why I said -attempt- to deny scouting. Simple fact is you have the extra 50 minerals, you may as well build the zerglings for extra attack power (you could build another drone instead, but you're already able to continue roach production with the cash you'll have - this isn't really necessary).
On some maps your able to completely deny the scout depending on spawn positions and enemy worker scout timing. On others, you wont.
It's still pretty damn effective scouted or not. I have not lost using this on the ladder vs a P or T as-yet.
On November 05 2010 07:43 vnlegend wrote: My 7rr/any roach rush isn't working at all. It might kill protoss but Terran easily defends it. You need the roach warren relatively early and the scv is gonna scout it. No lings means easy scout and 2 lings don't really help much. Also toss can do stuff like pylon wall + cannon ur ramp which will basically end any rush.
Not the best place to talk about 7RR which is different than the 3RR, but none the less, you should try opening with an 11 pool (gas trick) if you're having scouting issues, and get a zergling pair asap. They will see gas and pool, which can mean speedlings or even banelings (or a rushed lair). Anyway, even then, against very good/perceptive players you will still have problems though, because if they realize that it's a 10 or 11 pool, instead of a 13 or 14 pool - which isn't too hard to figure out- they should know to get a bit of extra defense to hold whatever's comming. If you're not playing at a high level that shouldn't be an issue though.
This build is so incredibly strong in 2v2. Used in 5 times, won all of them. Even when my ally went mass viking in ZTvTP T_T. 2v2 Diamond is a lot lower than 1v1 Diamond but these players were all in the top5 of their leagues. I like the intense micro and fast games but I kinda got sick of it after the 5th game. It bit too easy perhaps?
On November 09 2010 06:21 Tofuicecream wrote: Just curious, but how exactly will you deny the scout in time for the roach warren to go down as soon as you'd like it to?
It's difficult. That's why I said -attempt- to deny scouting. Simple fact is you have the extra 50 minerals, you may as well build the zerglings for extra attack power (you could build another drone instead, but you're already able to continue roach production with the cash you'll have - this isn't really necessary).
The lings are actually great, if they see them they will expect the likes of a 10pool. Most peoples response is just to put a zealot in the choke, which is kinda nice. 1 zea vs 3 roaches gg
I tried this out for a few matches and it's really effective! But I feel like I'm becoming a worse player by doing this... lol. Still, it's a pretty awesome build to have in my repertoire.
On November 09 2010 08:05 Kyrth wrote: I tried this out for a few matches and it's really effective! But I feel like I'm becoming a worse player by doing this... lol. Still, it's a pretty awesome build to have in my repertoire.
use it to practice ur micro. theres nothing wrong with cheesing/all in as long as u dont do it every game.
this is pretty amazing against terran. against toss though, when they see your early pool, they think you 6 pooled and throw up a forge and cannons. then gg
also, thanks for the strategy. this is pretty awesome
On November 09 2010 09:18 nigritude wrote: this is pretty amazing against terran. against toss though, when they see your early pool, they think you 6 pooled and throw up a forge and cannons. then gg
While cannons will counter it, it's much easier (and faster) for terran to just build bunkers. Both sides can counter it, and I'd say it's easier for terran than protoss... your experience may have just been a bit different.
On November 09 2010 13:04 Zerius[TPR] wrote: Are you of any relation to Warcraft 2/SC1 legend INcinerate?
Nope. I actually always went by Ncinerate (as far back as games allowed names). I switched it up for SC2 because of all the confusion (everyone seemed to think my name was pronounced nicorette, enough over headsets in TF2 and MW2 that I finally added the I).
In WC2 and SC1 I was good, but certainly no legend.
I've been working with a similar 10 roach all in build. similar because it's basically unrecoverable and it comes at a vulnerable time for protoss (before 4gate) and before banshees can be out as well. i find that its pretty effective against protoss but the terrans kill off roaches pretty easily if they went bio. I'm interested in trying this earlier rush though, i'll give it a shot
I've used 3RR with team games and it's very deadly. Most people just can't deal with that kind of pressure that early.
I think earlier posters are correct though in that it will be seen just as the 6-pool is and it really can be countered very easily if you expect it... you just need to know what to look for (low drone gas, etc).
Does anyone has a good counter to this from a Protoss pov? I am having big problems against this push, same for 7RR. I scout it but i am unable to stop it what so ever. It seems to be the new 6 pool
This dies to marauder rushes and defensive reaper rushes. For protoss it dies to a tight walloff and quick stalker/Sentry ff. Counters 6pool on all maps.
On November 10 2010 00:34 laonda wrote: Does anyone has a good counter to this from a Protoss pov? I am having big problems against this push, same for 7RR. I scout it but i am unable to stop it what so ever. It seems to be the new 6 pool
As soon as you scout it get a forge and build cannons (you'll probably need about 4) and maybe a couple sentries if you can afford them. Usually when zergs go for this build they also bring their queens and all their drones i've never actually played against the exact version in the op but here's a replay vs a 1900 zerg the attack comes at about the same time.
Someone did this against me. I went 14 gate into cyber into a second gateway. I got a chronoed zealot and an unchronoed sentry as my first two units, followed by all stalkers, and held it off. I had to pull probes for surround on roaches, but held it off without putting me any further behind than the Zerg was. Won the game easily on eco after I held it off. The roaches came up my ramp before my sentry was out(I wish I had made a stalker). If I had made a stalker i'd of had a zealot, a stalker, and probes to hold off the first push, and it'd have been an easy hold most likely. This was on Steppes.
On November 10 2010 08:36 .ImpacT. wrote: IF I see this early of a roach warren and as few drones, I just build a forge and a cannon or two at my ramp :/
1 cannon won't do anything, but 2 cannons and 1 zealot wall will absolutely crush this.
I really really liked it at first, but if your opponent knows what to do, it's so easy to counter it.
It's a great find, but I think it has more utility in 2's and 3's than solo.
Just faced this build. Went for 13 gate, Scouted the 10 pool with my probe -> got zealot b4 cyber core -> save chronoboost -> scout the roach warren -> second gateway fast -> chronoboost sentry -> chronoboost stalkers from 2 gates. had to bring some probes off but I held it fine, and proceeded to get an easy win.
Was expecting a 7RR tho, have seen it played of a 10 pool often.
I think cannons should never be used to fight cheese, unless its super all in like a 6 pool. Because you put yourself back, and he can just abandon the rush and catch up.
This seems to work well in 2's. Actually, In one of Day9 dailies (the 2v2 newbie Tuesday one), there was a game of 2v2 where 2 guys did a double 3 Roach Rush and won it (Day9 did observe that there was a window of opportunity for the other team to attack though i think).
Also, i'm just throwing it out there, but i think you should just call this the Lightning Ragnarok Roach Rush, it sounds cooler imho. At least, that's how i've been introducing it to friends anyway.
On November 08 2010 12:05 Felix_mk wrote: You should really give credit to the "Evolution Chamber" programm for coming up with this build and the 7rr...
I would, but evolution chamber didn't come up with this - I did.
Try it for yourself, evolution chamber comes up with a different solution with less drones (less ability to produce roaches after the initial push due to less drones with 3 roaches out @ 3:31). I use evolution chamber all the time these days, and I really think it helps me round my build orders down - it wasn't necessary or helpful in THIS particular instance.
It's not like this was a difficult build order to "come up with" though. I wanted to build 3 really quick roaches with enough income to continue building them. My initial thought was perhaps I'd modify a 6 pool to build roaches - that was slow and not effective due to lack of drones. I slowly inched the pools up over a handful of games and this is what I came up with. It took less than an hour total to come up with the idea, test the build, and win a few games with it on the ladder.
And of course, the evo chamber absolutely came up with the 7RR, and so did I, and so did lots of other people with virtually identical builds throughout the last handful of months. There was no attempt to skirt credit-where-credit was due, coincidences happen. I'm not looking to argue here though, I am simply attempting to share ideas with teamliquid forum dwellers.
Ncinerate is right. He invented it himself and so did many others (I found this build in first week of sc2 and liked it. I also think i saw already thread about 3RR so I didnt share it.)
And IMHO programs for making builds are not very optimal because in practice the map and possible cheese/scout/FE deny affects you. Sure it's possible but I would any time of the day invent it in custom game.
But finally we got thread to discuss about this strat and indeed I think it's very strong with drones.
Clearly it's counterable but speaking as a lowly bronze n00b, this absolutely owns. I don't think I've lost with it yet. That said I haven't tried it on a 4 player map yet. Closest anyone's come to holding it is scouting the RW and dropping a bunker, but my first 3 roaches killed the SCV building it for the GG.
This is hilarious. I tried the 3RR for the very first time today, in a ZvT, and it hard-countered my opponent's build: A 9-double rax marine all-in cheese :-)
On November 10 2010 00:34 laonda wrote: Does anyone has a good counter to this from a Protoss pov? I am having big problems against this push, same for 7RR. I scout it but i am unable to stop it what so ever. It seems to be the new 6 pool
9 Pylon 13 Gate On 2player maps you should see the roach warren building right about now. On 4 player you may not scout it till roaches are actually finishing in which case make sentry stalker and throw down a robo and kite until immortal finishes remember to intercept the roaches with any stalkers you may have at this point for maximum delay. 14 Gas 15 Pylon 17 Core as soon as your gate finishes 18 Gas it seems unorthodox but you need 200-300 gas FAST. 20 Robo right when your core finishes 23 Sentry or as soon as you have the gas 24 Gate 28 Immortal as soon as robo finishes (chrono as much as you can) 30 Sentry (Chrono) Usually about immortal 50% completion the roaches get there FF and wait fro immortal to finish and watch the carnage. From there make one more immortal and a bunch of zealots and push out when the second non chronoed immortal finishes. If for some reason he holds pull back and transition to colossus/phoenix depending if you saw a spire or not.
9 Pylon 13 Gate On 2player maps you should see the roach warren building right about now. On 4 player you may not scout it till roaches are actually finishing just drop your current build cancel any non essential buildings and start this one. 14-15 forge 15-16 pylon near ramp Cut probe production and make 2 cannons. You probably want to make a wall with this because even with two cannons three roaches will be able to make one full health through and another with 50 HP. Followed by gas and a core when you can afford it in that order continue making probes and transition into 4 gate timing attack. Depending on his army composition you may want to stick to sentry stalker or if it is pure roaches you may want to throw down a robo and go two gate robo instead of 4 gate push.
works for me, if you are having trouble with 5RR+ play vs very hard AI on steppes or Xel caverns its the only build it does. Use it to figure out the tell tale signs and learn how to execute this properly vs it.
On November 10 2010 06:33 Unfeared wrote: This dies to marauder rushes and defensive reaper rushes. For protoss it dies to a tight walloff and quick stalker/Sentry ff. Counters 6pool on all maps.
I don't mean to call you a liar, but here are some interesting things to note about the timings for the "counters" you just said.
-The soonest a marauder can reasonably be out is 3:40 (when the roaches pop). You can have 2 marauders out AT MOST by the time the 3roaches (and 2 lings) come. and You can have an additional 1 marauder and 1 marine about 20 seconds later (when there 5 total roaches have arrived at your base). You will only have 1 reaper out if you rush reapers. -The soonest a sentry can be reasonably done (1-gate core) is ~3:45. This will give you a whopping ONE forcefield for your ramp. Roaches will still be able to hit anything walling you off due to OL sight. Further, you'll have at most 2 zealots to support the one sentry. Once your next 2 gateway units come out, Roaches have been reinforced by 2 additional roaches. -lings will be in your base for almost an entire minute before 3 roaches spawn. Not sure you can make such an audacious claim.
Also, replays please...
You can't counter this with standard play, and although it is very easy to counter (see:make units/bunker/cannon), the three strategies you mention will only ensure quick losses.
If you just have 9 drones, with witch one do you scout? On 4 player maps you need to find the opponent before roaches, since they are too slow to find the opponent.
On November 22 2010 21:19 rozina wrote: If you just have 9 drones, with witch one do you scout? On 4 player maps you need to find the opponent before roaches, since they are too slow to find the opponent.
You don't.
On a 4 player map, you send your initial overlord to the second-closest main base. Your -second- overlord goes to the closest main base ramp. If the opponent isn't at the second-closest base, you send that overlord immediately toward the final enemy ramp.
Time it right and the OL will reach the third ramp by the time your roaches do (or a few seconds after).
Either way, you know the opponent is at the third base if he isn't at the first two.
On November 22 2010 14:24 TERRANLOL wrote: This happened to me a couple times, but I learned that if you scout no expo, you throw up a bunker. Hasn't been a problem since.
That'd be the correct response . For a terran, a bunker or two with a marauder and some marines can stop it (although, it -can- get tense, I've got a few replays where things got REALLY dicey for the terran). Don't panic, use your scv's if necessary (the mules will keep your income rolling) and pump marines/build bunkers if it looks like he's breaking through your wall. Use the scv's to buy your bunkers time to complete if necessary (this is assuming he managed to get past the front gate).
Soon you'll hit a critical mass of marines and his roach production wont be able to keep up.
For a protoss the easiest thing in the world is to simply scout this super-early roach warren, and IMMEDIATELY toss down a forge/2 cannons at the ramp.
Thats all you have to do. 2 cannons stops this build cold, and there is -no- way for the zerg to macro out of this. Stop the initial roaches and you've automatically won the game (get the warpgates cycling, and go run him over in sub-10 minutes with a superior force). I know some people don't like to build cannons, but since it wins 100% of the time vs this build, it's the smart thing to do if your 9 pylon scout see's a super super early roach warren.
Because such counters are becoming more common (especially at the 1800+ pt diamond level where I am being matched up at) I've been modifying the build a bit. Currently here's what I've been doing:
Send overlord immediately to enemy ramp. If it's a 4P map, send it to the second closest then move it to the furthest main if he isn't there, send your second OL to the closest. 9 Spawning Pool 10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY - when it finishes put 2 drones on it) 9 Overlord drone Now send a drone to the ramp, to intercept any 9 pylon or 10 depot scout (read below for the explanation of what to do) Zergling the second the spawning pool pops (these are going to attempt to stop the enemy scout - hopefully he's chasing your "expo" drone - if not, use the expo drone and 2 lings to kill it)
Roach Warren @ 150 if you've distracted the enemy scout or when enemy scout is killed otherwise.
Anyway, I run one of my early drones to the ramp (prior to the 9 pylon scout timing) and IMMEDIATELY run it to my expansion when I see the enemy probe coming (when he has vision). I try to make it exceptionally clear that I'm attempting to fast expand. I'll usually bump the probe/scv and attack it once before heading to the expo to make some noise . A -lot- of toss and terran at this mid 1800 diamond level are really really excited about slowing down my expansion, so I end up with scv's or probes dancing around in my expo while my roach warren is getting built and they continue their normal builds completely oblivious to all of this.
If he ignores this "fauxpo" drone, I'll pull my whole freakin drone line if necessary - killing this enemy probe scout is absolutely critical at higher levels of play.
The idea here is to make him unsure of whether or not you've fast expanded (because if he builds cannons or bunkers etc and you've fast expanded, you're ahead). Keep him in the dark and unable to get a proper drone count.
Then, SURPRISE, ROACHES!
It's still working at a better-than 70% rate vs these mid-high diamond opponents, so I'm pretty happy with it's capabilities. Of course, sharing this whole "fauxpo" strategy might hurt that percentage .
Another funny thing I'm noticing is I'm MUCH more successful with this when I'm playing under my -real- 1v1 account. I think Incinerate has gotten too well known - people are blind-building double bunkers or cannons vs me a little too frequently. Either maphack is back with a vengeance, or these people see my name and automatically assume early roaches . I think I'm going to change my name and see if that helps.
On November 23 2010 00:04 Cheshyr wrote: I'll have to try it out tonight. All-in makes me nervous, but you've gotta start somewhere. Thanks for the tips.
By all means try it out, but don't think for a minute this gets you "better" at the game. You limit you're decision making, you also lose you're creativeness.
There is a reason people do not do builds like this at 2k+ in the ladder. So make sure you diversify yourself when trying all in builds like this.
As far as vs Terran as I stated before if you don't scout expansion and still lose to this, you must have made a huge mistake.
[B] If he ignores this "fauxpo" drone, I'll pull my whole freakin drone line if necessary - killing this enemy probe scout is absolutely critical at higher levels of play.
The idea here is to make him unsure of whether or not you've fast expanded (because if he builds cannons or bunkers etc and you've fast expanded, you're ahead). Keep him in the dark and unable to get a proper drone count.
I personally always scout with my 10supply scv, and if my opponent pulls his drone line to stop an early scout, theres no way i'm not gonna throw down a bunker even if i havent seen the pool.
[B] If he ignores this "fauxpo" drone, I'll pull my whole freakin drone line if necessary - killing this enemy probe scout is absolutely critical at higher levels of play.
The idea here is to make him unsure of whether or not you've fast expanded (because if he builds cannons or bunkers etc and you've fast expanded, you're ahead). Keep him in the dark and unable to get a proper drone count.
I personally always scout with my 10supply scv, and if my opponent pulls his drone line to stop an early scout, theres no way i'm not gonna throw down a bunker even if i havent seen the pool.
You might, not everyone does - especially seeing the drone headed to the expo.
If you scout the early pool+roach warren though, you and almost -everyone- else with half a brain will build a bunker or two and push out units ASAP.
I sometimes pull the same trick with a FE, my goal being to deny scouting and keep him wondering what is coming his way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Often the enemy will even waste a comsat on me to double-check later. Might not be great in the 2k+ levels but it works nicely through the 1400-1800 diamond.
On November 23 2010 00:08 n0xi3 wrote: By all means try it out, but don't think for a minute this gets you "better" at the game. You limit you're decision making, you also lose you're creativeness.
There is a reason people do not do builds like this at 2k+ in the ladder. So make sure you diversify yourself when trying all in builds like this.
Thanks for the reminder. I mostly see this as a tool to use against people who have cheesed me in prior games. Sometimes I just need something to break the losing streak before I go back to practicing my macro.
tried this on terran twice, he have at max 1 marauders with 1 still building off course its very all in and if you dont win straightaway then its gg for you
I played against this yesterday. I saw the pool, then saw the warren, then I built a bunker and it failed. This is practically a cheese, but it gives the opponent too much time to scout it.
On November 23 2010 01:13 TurtlePerson2 wrote: I played against this yesterday. I saw the pool, then saw the warren, then I built a bunker and it failed. This is practically a cheese, but it gives the opponent too much time to scout it.
That's the real kicker though. While it's super easy to counter (just as a 6-pool), if you don't know how to properly respond and what to look for (and when), you're going to lose.
I think the reason it's so successful is because it's simply not common enough for most players to have experienced it yet. I expect it to have similar frequency of use as 6-pool, maybe slightly less, over time.
played with this build a few times think ive only lost 1 time to a terran on steppes cause of poor micro but im only a gold so i can live with that for now. fun build thou, i use it a lot on the SEA servers :D
I'm a GOLD player. I tried this build against protoss, and met a wall of canons. Then stalkers. Then ownage. Yay! So it didn't work for me. I didn't even get a chance to be in his base!
Heh if you play scrubby players like me, this is awesome. Against a standard terran wall-in with a couple few marines when your roaches get there it's like auto-win. I'm sure it's easily scouted and beaten with a bunker or a couple of cannons by good players, but it's an easy and fun build. Nice contribution. I'm sure it's probably really worth trying in 2v2s also.
I'm a GOLD player. I tried this build against protoss, and met a wall of canons. Then stalkers. Then ownage. Yay! So it didn't work for me. I didn't even get a chance to be in his base!
Yeah, I've tried this build in gold a few times too. Didn't worked too. Bunkers, cannons, the hell. Maybe I'm just bad with all-ins. Maybe I just don't like them. Well, thx for the build, I'd like to know if it is working for someone past gold and how to make it work because it seems I'm just incapable of executing it properly.
Versus terran I don't see what the point is. I'm seeing the rax, bunker wall in (At the bottom of the ramp) very often these days. And it's just easy to stop zerg aggression with terrans.
Versus toss though this might be promising, I don't know. I think a lot of zerg's are having trouble with FE air openings nowadays. It's incredibly hard to deal with if the toss does everything right. The problem with that build is the toss is in absolute control of the flow of that game. A FE puts him ahead already in workers. You can't get an early third because a a VR will kill it off. And as soon as you build defences then.... He has collosux. So I think we gotta find a way to control the flow.
I watched the replay vs witness, he knew it was coming on steppes, all he really had to do was throw another gate or forge up to fully block and get more stalkers out then it's gg. Or if the early pool is scouted, just throw a forge up. As for Terran, could wall in with bigger hp buildings or bunker and repair, even with some scv losses still would still probably be leaps ahead of the zerg. Any good player would have to savagely underestimate this build to lose to it as Terran or Protoss. I don't know about the level of ladder points now, but I'm guessing 2000+ will easily beat this for the most part and that 6 pool + workers is a lot harder to stop if controlled well. I had high hopes coming into the thread, but feel like this would only work against lower skilled players, would work really well against them though since to stop it they'd probably overcommit giving space to drone up or would just get run over by the roaches.
On November 01 2010 23:49 johanngrunt wrote: 3 seems like a good number. one shots workers and marines.
Will try it out. Even though you say it is all in, do you think there is any way to transition out of it?
of course you can transition out of it into somthing more standard. only problem is if you dont do ENOUGH damage you will be insanely behind lol. so yeah prolly best just to go for the kill in most situations.
EPT
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going to try it out :
