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The 3 Roach Rush (lightning Ragnarok Majesty) - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Kelsin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States253 Posts
November 02 2010 20:39 GMT
#121
Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.

Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.
Kayzer.
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany79 Posts
November 02 2010 21:18 GMT
#122
On November 03 2010 05:39 Kelsin wrote:
Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.

Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.


This is pretty much what i thought when I read this. I recently switched to Zerg and I did so because I like the macro game. If i really felt like going all-in all the time just to get some fancy avatars unlocked real quick I would probably stay protoss and 4gate -_-.

I would'nt mind so much about going all-in if it wasn't so common... in every 2nd game I play on the ladder someone does some hudge 1base-push (mostly Terrans and Toss obviously... but there's also a lot of cheese in ZvZ). That makes it pretty hard to get better in the late game.

I don't wanna be too critical though. It's a nice build to know... you could use it some time. For example if you play in some tournament and your opponent chooses Steppes of War or something like that. I just don't like the idea of doing it all the time. I would prefer to see some kind of 3 roach pressure opening into macro game (preferably with a more economic build than 9 pool).
Dienosore
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-02 22:20:30
November 02 2010 22:20 GMT
#123
I have yet to lose a ZvP with this at 1450 gold.

ZvT, Terrans just throw up a bunker and ZvZ, zergs can just pool out of it.

But toss really cant do anything except besides a complete wall off with cannons and probes, but even that hasn't stopped me yet. Just a few lings help vs kiting stalkers, so skip a roach and build some lings if you are having trouble with that.

I'm going to continue doing this every zvp until somebody can beat it.
Kurayuki
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (South)36 Posts
November 02 2010 22:42 GMT
#124
On November 02 2010 01:24 metalsonic wrote:
and skyro what do u do when the zerg decides to build a spawning pool + baneling nest , banelings really hard counter gate forge openings , or is it just me doing something wrong ?

Two words Force Field.

Personally, I think roach buff was completely uncalled for on Blizzard's part. For real? You're gonna buff unit that's virtually unstoppable for toss unless you go robo tech for Protoss? Thanks Blizz. Add that to another superiority of Zerg list on top of imba mutalisks. (taking upgrades into account) Also, stalkers hardly counter roaches anymore even pre-speed upgrade now since their range is so long, while you're kiting, you are more than likely to get hit while they have damage superiority.

Also, I just had someone do a 5 roach all in with drones, where drones just ghost walked through my blocked choke then sniped out stalker. Yeah, talk about unstoppable. It was done at steppes, where it really was virtually impossible to get a sentry out in time unless you give up on getting stalker out first, even though you know roaches are in route.By the way, drones ghostwalk through FF too so yeah...

Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-02 22:52:02
November 02 2010 22:50 GMT
#125
Thanks for explaining what I should do every time I scout a 9pool!

EDIT: Namely, chrono 1 Zealot to deal with any early Zerglings, then chrono 2 Stalkers and prepare for a 4gate if there's no immediate follow-up.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Ganondorf
Profile Joined April 2010
Italy600 Posts
November 02 2010 23:25 GMT
#126
I didn't see this done to meyet. I've seen some early roaches and if i scout it (i play terran) i will ofc put down a bunker. If it's not scouted it might work, depending on micro. If i ever stumble on the ladder on a 3rr i'll let you know the results and post the replay if it's interesting.
TibblesEvilCat
Profile Joined March 2010
United Kingdom766 Posts
November 02 2010 23:35 GMT
#127
i did some games to practis this build and it is semi sucesfull, this SHOULDN'T work vs good protoss due to stalker range and speed vs roaches, we did about 20 games straight, (i also did other builds thrown in so he didn't do a build that was designed to counter it), but generally, the best counter was a fast FF of ramp and once stalkers are in pair's good mirco and zealot/probe screening will be best counter.

i made my freind sweat hard mircoing though, one thing we did learn though was that walling at the ramp vs zerg doesn't seem to be the best option anymore, (as 6-8 pools probes and zealots can win, depending on the goodness of the sourround)

also, if you scout that early Roach warren, i sugguest you suicde your zealot to kill drones, trust me, this build is soo tight 1-2 drones lost = not enough money to keep producing the roaches, giving more breathing room.
Live Fast Die Young :D
Noxie
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2227 Posts
November 03 2010 05:41 GMT
#128
After like 5 games this will not work vs terran. As soon as i see the no hatch I lay the bunker down and always defend it and obviously this puts me ahead enough to win. I still see this very viable vs toss, but for any good terran i think if they recognize the all-in if they lay the bunker its GG.
necroticah
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa233 Posts
November 03 2010 07:06 GMT
#129
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote:
nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that


lol... Drewbie, just lol.

I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?
Boysarn
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden77 Posts
November 03 2010 07:20 GMT
#130
On November 03 2010 16:06 necroticah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote:
nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that


lol... Drewbie, just lol.

I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?


Ofc it is, but like every other strategy everything has flaws. Firstly he doesn't need mass maruaders to defend this with bunker, even one will probably do. Even if they do get quite a big army he will scout you and realise something is up and pushout with his army, you won't get mutas enough to defend the push or even close to enough mutas and you'll die. That early spawning pool will hit your ecenomy real hard aswell giving him a sweet advantage.

I would recommend never to do this vs and semi-good terran or zerg and never vs any good protoss since all of these players will scout it and react otherwise. Like I said even if you cancell it he will have a economical advantage and if you decide to drone nothing stops him from stomping you with a army.
Tjenare
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
November 03 2010 08:03 GMT
#131
On November 03 2010 16:06 necroticah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote:
nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that


lol... Drewbie, just lol.

I was wondering, since I only read about this now and I'm at work. Is it viable to 'trick' your opponent by cancelling the warren after he scouted it and you kill the scout then go into a fast muta build for his bazillion maruaders?


No. The 9pool is a huge economic commitment that can't be transitioned out of without significant damage being dealt. Forcing an early army is not enough damage to justify a 9pool. Once he notices that Roaches aren't coming, he'll realize he has an immense army lead and just kill you. Your Mutas won't be out for a long time after.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
Nemireck
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1875 Posts
November 03 2010 08:06 GMT
#132
I played this build tonight about 10 times in a row in custom games. Played mostly players in the 1100 Diamond range and found that it was scouted every.single.time, however, very few people prepared properly for the attack.

The best response by toss seems to be sending a very fast zealot to kill a couple of drones before the roaches pop, after that, the rush is dead. Toss can also FF the ramp and bring out stalkers quickly, but I had some success against that because instead of 3 roaches entering the base, I waited for my reinforcements and enter the base with 5-6 roaches.

For Terran, the obvious response is to place a quick bunker and repair.

Final thought say that it's very easy to stop if scouted, but it's a very powerful build if your opponent hasn't seen it before and doesn't prepare.

That said, I think it's important to try out all sorts of cheese builds, if one ever arises that really IS impossible to stop, it proves a true imbalance and can be fixed, and if not, it helps keep players sharp in the early game.
Teamwork is awesome... As long as your team is doing all the work!
SonicTitan
Profile Joined August 2010
United States249 Posts
November 03 2010 17:26 GMT
#133
I just did this three ladder games in a row. I feel slightly dirty now.
What if I'm in it for fighting?
Slakter
Profile Joined January 2010
Sweden1947 Posts
November 03 2010 17:30 GMT
#134
So cheesy.

Brb, gonna try ^^
Protoss, can't live with em', can't kill em'.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
November 03 2010 17:32 GMT
#135
I'm sure this has been said a billion times, but instead of putting only 2 drones on gas, make the gas later and put 3 drones on gas, and pull one drone off as you start making the Roaches. This way you get way more minerals.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Urfi
Profile Joined October 2010
Switzerland13 Posts
November 03 2010 18:26 GMT
#136
It Fails hard against forge first, i tryed in a cup xD

here the rep:
http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/280264/3RR-Fail-SC2Replay.html
Peace :D
InfC.AnatoLiy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States154 Posts
November 03 2010 20:50 GMT
#137
I can't picture this working against many opponents. As you mentioned this is an all-in strategy and may possibly work one time.

So whats the transition from this 3RR when a toss goes 12 gate, 15 gate and double chronos boosts 2 stalkers to poke around your base initially and gladly finds your 3 roaches then proceeds to kite them as they are traveling off creep towards the toss base?
Twitch.tv/D3AnatoLiy
TheFinalWord
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia790 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 20:53:00
November 03 2010 20:52 GMT
#138
Seems better for 2 v 2 now that I think about it. Maybe take over 6 pool being the default rush build for zergs. Noticed 2 players doing something similar in a day9 daily.
quarkle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom92 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 21:40:51
November 03 2010 21:35 GMT
#139
On November 04 2010 05:50 InfC.AnatoLiy wrote:
I can't picture this working against many opponents. As you mentioned this is an all-in strategy and may possibly work one time.

So whats the transition from this 3RR when a toss goes 12 gate, 15 gate and double chronos boosts 2 stalkers to poke around your base initially and gladly finds your 3 roaches then proceeds to kite them as they are traveling off creep towards the toss base?


There's noway you could get 2 stalkers into the zerg base on any map at the 3:40 mark to poke around, that suggests to me you don't understand this rush. Come back after you've checked out your own timings.
I also think you are missing the point of this rush.
If you've never faced this rush before and lets face it the "The lightning Ragnarok Majesty" is relatively new ...panick can and most likely will set in.
when there are three roaches knocking at your door so early (4 minute mark) its not so easy to think logically and say to yourself everything is cool there's no transition ...all the while the roaches are burning down your house. and there's more roaches on route.
Sure, now that the 3 roach rush has become a recognised strat its easy in hindsight to deal with it.
On the ladder though at most levels it still has a lot of potential, not every sc2 player has access to this forum so it still has potential to not only win fast but also screw up established build orders which perhaps isn't such a bad thing.
It adds yet another level of anxiety for both protoss and terran players.

On a sidenote Blizzard often pride themselves on how balanced all 3 races are but in reality zerg easily have the most potential for early rushes. Some top level ladder players can maintain their position using such cheese without ever really being skillful so in that respect i think blizzard have to rethink the current inbalance unless they are happy that a bag of cheese can earn you a platinum position whilst there's hundreds if not thousands of bronze players that would kick their sorry arses if zerg didn't have these strats available.

ZapRoffo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5544 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-03 21:42:07
November 03 2010 21:38 GMT
#140
On November 03 2010 05:39 Kelsin wrote:
Threads like this are why I read TL by default instead of the official sc2 forums. I just don't understand the viewpoint of trying to find the perfect cheese. So many posts talk about how Koreans play sc2 to get better and americans play to win... seems pretty accurate.

Whether or not it gets me wins I'm going to be continuing to practice macro tonight, and I'm sure in the process get more practice defending against builds like this.


Knowing cheeses is a big advantage in tournaments or any series matches where you are playing to win. It's very useful. It's not supposed to be a consistent game winner, it's supposed to be applied when you think your opponent might be playing greedy/susceptible to it and you care about winning.

If you are just playing to get better then it's not useful to practice true.

I don't know where you get the Korean vs. American thing, everyone says Koreans play super cheesy/experimentally (I think they just play more so they know more styles).

BTW what's Lightning Ragnarok Majesty? The names of the 3 roaches? lol
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion man
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