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I'm new user here and i decided to register to ask question about this tactics. U said in ur build order to make pair of zerglings to deny scouting. with all respect do u honestly believe that its not a bit pointless as u put roach warren way before those lings spawn? I dont rly see the reason in spawning them coz if u get scouted u wont be able to change build anyway and if he wont scout u at all those lings wont matter anyway as u are dedicated to do this all-in rush. Reason why i wonder about it is simple.
If u go 10 pool, make drone, make 2 extractors at 150 minerals and 2 drones, cancel 1 extractor (11/10 food now), make overlord put 2 drones on gas and put roach warren when pool finish (10/18) now u got time to spawn one more overlord making it 10/26 and as soon as roach warren ends u got enough to make 3 roaches - now u can make roaches constantly without making "space" for overlord and at 24/26 u should have enough to make queen or at 26/26 make overlord and continue with roaches. This is not rly much slower - few seconds - and make roaches reinforcement more stable and fluent.
I would also wish to see some more replays if possible from high ranked terrans. Thx and great threat.
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On November 02 2010 22:15 Phrencys wrote:
After trying this a little bit I got to say I don't like it that much.
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there.
Oddly enough, that's exactly what I hoped to see in the games where I used this build. 4-5 marines are a light snack for three roaches, and they can't kite because the roaches will just focus down the depot wall instead. At that point, one/two marauders would be all he gets to make (only one alive at any given time) because my first priority is to focus down the tech lab. As long as my reinforcements keep trickling in, he can't get enough marauders to turn the tables before I do that. After tech labs, my next target is supply depots. I avoid killing SCVs for as long as possible because that frees up supply for him to make units. In fact, I avoid pushing into his base at all until I have a really solid number of roaches, enough to kite and slaughter his SCVs easily.
I actually take back what I said earlier about it being moronically easy to pull off. It's easy to execute the opening build order, fair enough, but it's pretty micro intensive at the ramp and requires good decision-making. Every roach is crucial. Wounded ones need to be moved to the back. Picking your targets, scouting his base with a single roach - there are a lot of little ways to tip a marginal situation in your favour. I might allow myself to do it once a day, maybe, just to practice that kind of play. I'm not saying it's by any objective standard 'difficult', but at my skill level I definitely notice a lot of room for improvement in my execution, so there's some value in practicing it.
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I've gotten to the point where instead of a second depot in my wall I put a bunker instead. Stopped a 7 roach rush dead yesterday.
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On November 03 2010 01:18 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 22:15 Phrencys wrote:
After trying this a little bit I got to say I don't like it that much.
Even without a bunker, a terran going MM will have 4-5 marines out and a marauder on the way when your 3 roaches get there. At that point, one/two marauders would be all he gets to make (only one alive at any given time) because my first priority is to focus down the tech lab. As long as my reinforcements keep trickling in, he can't get enough marauders to turn the tables before I do that. After tech labs, my next target is supply depots. I avoid killing SCVs for as long as possible because that frees up supply for him to make units. In fact, I avoid pushing into his base at all until I have a really solid number of roaches, enough to kite and slaughter his SCVs easily.
If he has 1 marauder up, is it your top priority?
Like, what is your priority order ?
1) Marine (since they're 1shotted by 3 roaches)
2) Marauder (since they destroy roaches)
3) Tech Lab (no moar marauders)
4) Supply Depot
Is that it?
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On November 02 2010 22:32 baconbits wrote:
depending on spawn loc and building placement you can often snipe the techlab before they can finish a maurader. from there its GG if they don't have the bunker down
Killing a techlab won't stop production on a marauder that is already building. You can kill the techlab to delay/prevent more marauders from being made, but that first one will just finish anyway. But still killing the techlab is pretty huge since it is a rather significant delay to additional marauder production (if the techlab is ever allowed to refinish) - which they would still be in trouble if they didn't have a bunker but not an auto loss.
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On November 03 2010 02:01 Fargoth wrote:
I've gotten to the point where instead of a second depot in my wall I put a bunker instead. Stopped a 7 roach rush dead yesterday.
You would do, he should have scouted and not done the rush,
Whenever they have a bunker any rush is almost certain to fail.
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Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
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Some zerg tried doing it to my terran earlier on steppes. Had a marauder and a marine when it came, wasn't too hard to hold off with the reinforcements from 2 then 3 rax with tech lab.
On November 03 2010 02:32 cosmicTrex wrote:
Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
Really bad to pin your plan on the supposition of no scouting >_<
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On November 03 2010 02:32 cosmicTrex wrote:
Just as a side-note, all of those who say that this is doomed to fail if it is scouted are saying practically the same thing as "a cannon rush (or a 6pool or a proxy, etc.) will not work if it is scouted."
Clearly.
This is an interesting and cheesy (not that that is a bad thing) rush strat. It's supposed to be like - "SURPRISE! ROACHES!" Since it relies on surprise, removing the surprise removes the 2nd dimension of a 2 dimensional strategy. Can't wait to do this to my friends who don't scout. :3
The difference is, a typical scout timing will arrive around the time the roach warren in put down, plenty of time to prepare and clearly an all in roach attack. If it only works against people who never scout, it's clearly not a viable strategy.
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I wasn't arguing it was a 100% always viable strat. I'm still willing to roll the dice on it every now and then though.
BTW, it just worked for me. It was almost scouted. I say almost because the Toss player I was facing got distracted by a drone I sent to my natural to fake an early expo. He never even went up to my main.
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what i have seen from replay i can tell you that your oponents were horrible...
terran had like 400 minerals just there at one point early in a game and he even didnt scout you proply, didnt see you roach warden when he was at your base..
i doubt it will work much
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2 rines in a bunker with 3 scv's easily counters this. 3 roaches doesn't quite reach the ctitical mass required. By the time the roaches arrive its easy to have 3 rines in bunker with a secondary rax well on the way with plentiful gas for tech lab on 2nd rax. By the time reinforcement roaches arrive (bout 20 secs later) the rines would have killed at least 1 or 2 roaches.
Having said that I've never faced this rush before and more than likely would assume a 7rr or similar after scouting so i think its a cool rush since a lot of terrans would fall prey to it including me (before i see it demonstrated)
Actually its a right pain in the arse coz now i am going to have to change my build order against the zerg yet again to take account of it.
I know a lot of terrans have been complaining about the roach buff lately and its fair to say zerg have gained a much needed boost but i really think zerg rush open repertoires easily out do both protos and terran... cannon rushing the zerg aint easy coz of the creep, same as terran bunker rush.
zerg are pretty safe from cheesy rushes as of now which imo isn't balanced.
in that respect i think blizzard should at least increase the build time of the roach warren by 5 secs or so. I feel more for protos at this stage as their early defensive options seem the most limited.
Back to the rush itself I am sure a lot of rush merchants are gonna love this one which in my opinion is way better than standard ling rush. It may not have much future if it fails but until it becomes a common strat its going to rack up a lot of early wins.
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Nifty all-in roach rush, it's nice to see zerg developing some DANGEROUSLY CHEESY strats.
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nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that
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Lol using this just got me promoted to plat D:
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On November 03 2010 03:48 drewbie.root wrote:
nice thread, teach everyone to allin roach cheese, thanks for that
WTB replays of Zerg doing this to you.
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On November 03 2010 02:01 Phrencys wrote:
If he has 1 marauder up, is it your top priority?
Like, what is your priority order ?
1) Marine (since they're 1shotted by 3 roaches)
2) Marauder (since they destroy roaches)
3) Tech Lab (no moar marauders)
4) Supply Depot
Is that it?
If there are no marauders, I just kill all marines. If there's a marauder, I wait for 4th roach, then kill marauder, then marines (there won't be as many because of techlab+marauder build time), then techlab, ignoring fresh marines until it's dead. Then start on depots. Don't know if this is optimal though.
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Somebody did this build on my yesterday. It was ZvP on Xel'Naga, I went for a forge FE. When I scouted the roach warren was at like 25%, I put up 3 cannons, a 2nd rax then a core. When they arrived I had 3 cannons and 1 zealot up, the roaches kited the zealot then found holes in my cannons. They were able to pick off my core before I got more than 2 stalkers out, but I eventually repelled. He delayed my probes enough to come out ahead and eventually beat me 2 bases to 2 bases.
I think had my sim-city been better, this should've been no problem to me. The core should've been up my ramp and the cannons could've been placed better. Overall I think forge FE hard counters this in most scenarios. Remember Xel'Naga has a wide open expansion so forge FE isn't as easy to pull off.
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On November 03 2010 03:45 sylverfyre wrote:
Nifty all-in roach rush, it's nice to see zerg developing some DANGEROUSLY CHEESY strats.
Huh? Zerg already had the 6-pool, which is even more all-in than a Protoss cannon rush. Terrans don't have any threats that early.
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On November 03 2010 05:06 out4blood wrote:
Huh? Zerg already had the 6-pool, which is even more all-in than a Protoss cannon rush. Terrans don't have any threats that early.
Not quite true terran still has the highly risky but doable bunker rush via a proxy rax (inside) the main zerg base but its very hard to achieve since 1.2 (depot before rax)
I've pulled that one off a few times myself when i am in a gambling mood ...its the most intense rush available to the terran imo since virtually all the time is spent just waiting and waiting for the rax and first bunker to finish which at any point can be scouted ...thereafter its a fifty fifty deal since the creep makes it really hard to get close enough to do good ecconomic damage. Very much all in ...no way back if it fails but still possible all the same.
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EPT
