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On November 02 2010 02:33 Mystgun wrote:
A few good replays would help the case but I think people are missing the point. This is basically an all-in cheese that, like any other cheese, is VERY hard to counter unless you scouted it and knew exactly what was coming. Given that it is a relatively new build, I doubt people are going to expect 3 roaches in ~4 minutes even if they scouted the early RW.
As a Protoss player, this would demolish me if I didn't see it coming as a standard gate/core opening cannot hold this off very well. EVERY build has a counter if you scout it out early enough and this is no different, but this one has some novelty and robustness compared to 6-pool.
Again, I'm not sure if I'm the only one or what, but I always go gate-forge if I scout early pool. Early pool almost always is an all-in, so what's the point of going standard gate-core? And like I said before whether it's early lings or roaches, gate-forge will stop it dead in its tracks.
The only time it wouldn't be scouted is on a 4-player map and they scout in the wrong direction. However in that scenario travel distance becomes a factor in its effectiveness (remember roaches are slow off creep w/o speed upgrade).
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Just tried this against a toss and lost ( close positions lost temple ). , actually it was my fault and was winnable. he completely walled his front to buy enough time to get enough cannons up to shut me down Gateway|Forge|Gateway at the natural ( ie fe type build ) and then cannoned behind, like a retard I took the forge out last and by the time I broke it he had ~2 zealots that he sacced and 3 cannons up, then he remade gateways behind those cannons and had a big enough eco lead I couldn't bust through in time.
Pretty sure if he'd gone gateway+cybernetics he'd have lost, and if he'd tried 2gate>zealots he'd have lost.
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Calgary25991 Posts
I am planning on stealing this. Thanks!
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how's the timing work vs chrono boosted stalker/sentry? seems protoss could have a few units out by the time roaches crossed the whole map. stalkers can kite, sentry would FF easily ramp to split slow moving roaches.
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I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I go into a Zerg base expecting to see no pool (hatch first), a just started pool (14 pool), or a pool about to finish/already finished (earlier pool.. my timings aren't fantastic!).
If I saw a finished pool, a roach warren going down, an extractor with drones in it and 6 drones mining, what about that doesn't SCREAM all-in at you? The Toss in that replay lost because he got to your base, saw the pool right at the entrance, and walked out.. didn't check for gas, didn't check for anything else, just walked out again. He didn't even leave the probe there, which probably means he just thought you were 6 pooling or something.
Which explains why he thought he could just wall off zealots a-ok.
I don't know. I'd like to think if this was done against me, I'd do the same as what I do against a 6-pool; a complete wall off with a forge and cannons, and crush with the economy.
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I didnt see if it was mentioned anywhere but why is it called lightning ragnarok majesty o.o
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On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote:
I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them.
I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
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i think 3RR, 5RR, and 7RR are all great ways to keep an early aggressive stance and expanding to the second base. Most players around my points, 1600, tend to overreact and build more than they need to fend me off. This is less of a problem for Terran, since they don't warp in a bunch of units at once to try to fight off the RR. The good players will only build enough to hold it back. One thing that I see good Protoss players do is warp in three or four stalkers max and a sentry, which then force fields my roaches into two separate armies.
I haven't tried doing a 3RR, but this is very interesting. I will be trying this soon.
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On November 02 2010 03:39 FinestHour wrote:
I didnt see if it was mentioned anywhere but why is it called lightning ragnarok majesty o.o
It's actually Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty.
It's a joke from the zerg forums, someone was saying we needed cooler strategy names after the whole day9 1/1/1 build joke (destiny cloud fist).
So, we came up with Lightning Ragnarok Shining Majesty, only problem was, we didn't know what build would be worthy of such an epic name.
There you go.
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Now build 1 zergling, to attempt to deny scouting.
You mean a pair of zerglings.
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On November 02 2010 04:08 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote:
I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them. I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU.
Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups.
TL&DR
Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate.
I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ
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Seems pretty interesting, I'll give it a try in gold. Will be back to post the results. And better than 6 pool indeed.
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Wont your drone count be too low if this fails?
Is this all in?
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On November 02 2010 04:24 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 04:08 Jayrod wrote:On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote:
I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them. I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU. Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups. TL&DR Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate. I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ
honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
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On November 02 2010 04:40 ThatsNoMoon wrote:
Wont your drone count be too low if this fails?
Is this all in?
Yes, this is clearly all-in.
Here's another replay vs a diamond Protoss who goes gate/cyber core:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=162175
It's a pretty damn strong strat.
I tried it against soulwager as well, he went with his FE forge first build, it managed to stop me but actually was closer then I expected (almost knocked the first cannon down with my initial 2 lings, then the roaches managed to pick off a couple others before there were too many warped in). Perhaps if I saw that and focused on more early lings instead of the roaches, hard to say without more testing.
Of course, thats not a standard build, so it's rare you'll encounter it.
For the record, the zergling USUALLY gets out and is able to stop the worker scout so your roach warren will be a surprise. The worker is usually hurt a bit from messing around in your mineral line, so the zergling can cut it down pretty easy if he keeps poking at you. You can pull a drone from the other side of your mineral line too to help corner and cut it down if it's trying to run away from the lings to the other side of your base to continue scouting.
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On November 02 2010 04:41 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 04:24 oZii wrote:On November 02 2010 04:08 Jayrod wrote:On November 02 2010 03:33 Cruciblious wrote:
I'd guess Protoss would only lose because it's such a surprise.. it just looks so easy to scout, but I scout at 9 after I throw down my pylon, which I guess makes the difference.
I'm at work and can't see the replay, but I can say protoss will lose to this because if hes really getting roaches out at 3:40 you wont have a stalker by the time he gets to your base unless you're X-position. Roaches handle zealots like theyre nothing and they do fine against stalkers. You can have perfect micro and you wont kill a roach with a stalker without taking hits. Ive been unable to do it, ive watched to players unable to do it even in small numbers. Its worth it to kite them still of course, you will just lose your stalker eventually and it just takes way too long. As the OP said they will just go for the probes anyways and one round them. I'm sure that double stalker opener people were doing a while ago (and once again more recently) would do fine against this, but im pretty sure you have to gate on 10 to do that. If a 12 gate can't hold this and every toss had to 10 gate in case it would be pretty boring MU. Many people are going with Gate Forge builds or if they aren't in PvZ they should start Gate core yea you probably are going to lose to this. With scouting you can see this coming he did say 1 ling to ward of scouting. You should be able to keep a probe alive for sometime against 1 regular zergling to see a roach warren come down. If its not hatch first then roaches are a good bet. If it speedling expand a forge goes a long way in PvZ matchups. TL&DR Forge is becoming more standard in PvZ you only need 1 gate and a forge to hold off most early zerg rushes everyone should be going some kind of Gate forge in pvz unless they plan to 4 gate. I would rather some all in style play from zerg than 14 hatch or 15 hatch anyday and the best way to delay/deny is with pylon/cannons so you should always have that forge in PvZ honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
Or you could be doing something like suprise FFE? Even the 3 gate expand uses a forge to expand. Forge doesnt automatically mean take the whole map it means slightly later stalkers and a few less units thats all depending on IF you have to spend on cannons early. I didnt say wall off your ramp with cannons and rush to voids or something nooby like that. The +1 upgrade is great in PvZ for a +1 timing attack against a early hatch zerg. This isnt theorycrafting its whats being used by alot of players.
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On November 02 2010 04:41 Jayrod wrote:
honestly if a good zerg sees an early forge and you arent cannoning their ramp you might as well just type 'here take the whole map' in all chat.
You build the forge only if you scout early pool.
So "lol gl taking the whole map with those 8 drones" is more like it. By the time he gets at your front you got 15+ workers already; if he can't get through your wall, he's screwed.
This strategy is all-in, and like the 7pool all-in, a good wall-off hard-counters it.
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On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote:
So, here's the build order:
9 Spawning Pool
10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor)
9 Overlord
9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool.
DET BO: http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/?buildOrder=10 Spawning Pool
10 Double Extractor Trick
12 Extractor > +2
11 Overlord
11 Roach Warren
10 Roach[3]&strictMode
10 Spawning Pool
10 Double Extractor Trick
12 Extractor > +2
11 Overlord
11 Roach Warren
10 Roach[3]
These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down.
Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued.
Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing. 
Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds.
10 Spawning Pool
10 Double Extractor Trick
12 Extractor > +2
11 Overlord
12 Roach Warren
11 Roach[3]
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On November 02 2010 05:26 Phrencys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 23:34 Ncinerate wrote:
So, here's the build order:
9 Spawning Pool
10 Extractor (build this when you reach 100 minerals EXACTLY, so mine a bit with all 10 drones BEFORE you build the extractor)
9 Overlord
9 Roach Warren
This is a very interesting BO. However a quick run into Haploid's optimizer showed me that you can get a similar timing with 2 more drones if you do a double extractor trick after the spawning pool. DET BO: http://haploid.nl/sc2/build_order/?buildOrder=10 Spawning Pool
10 Double Extractor Trick
12 Extractor > +2
11 Overlord
11 Roach Warren
10 Roach[3]&strictMode10 Spawning Pool 10 Double Extractor Trick 12 Extractor > +2 11 Overlord 11 Roach Warren 10 Roach[3] These 2 drones are certainly worth the 5-6 additional seconds it takes for your roaches to spawn IMO. Another interesting fact is that you can then either go with 2 or 3 drones on gas and still get the 3roaches down. Having 8 drones on minerals instead of 6 is HUGE. This should allow you to eventually get a queen, so I would probably stick with 2 drones on gas and then switch to 3 when the queen is queued. Definitely going to give this a shot tonight. Thanks again for sharing. Edit: you can squeeze in another drone while building your RW, however this will force you to immediately OL after the 3 roaches because you'll be at 17/18. That is, unless you pull-off another extractor trick. According to the optimizer, your 4th Roach will then come about 10sec later than your 3 initial ones if you E.T @ 17/18 then Overlord. It comes down to whether this 4th roach can make or break your push, because you'll be supply blocked (albeit with no larvae, so it's not that inefficient) for several seconds. 10 Spawning Pool 10 Double Extractor Trick 12 Extractor > +2 11 Overlord 12 Roach Warren 11 Roach[3]
This is the kind of response I like to see .
Thanks for trying to improve things. I wasn't worrying about getting an extra drone or three because I was thinking my larva are being used as quickly as they are built. Since it's an all-in, I didnt see any reason to try to mine more.
Perhaps I -should- do this, because once a queen pops you could seriously send in a big wave with a larva pop .
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wow never mind my earlier response had been said already , like the strat will try it
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EPT
