EPTthe micro'ing goes in favor of the zerg. zergs can just hold off their muta ball and magix box while sending lings and banelings in.
pulling back and splitting marines is much harder to do, all while micro'ing banshees to attack banelings
TvZ matches in the GSL - Page 6
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BigMEAT
23 Posts
the micro'ing goes in favor of the zerg. zergs can just hold off their muta ball and magix box while sending lings and banelings in. pulling back and splitting marines is much harder to do, all while micro'ing banshees to attack banelings | ||
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prototypue
United States20 Posts
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k4ne
Austria34 Posts
On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote: Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. that's why in a mech build you go for mass Thors/Tanks AND HELLIONS with flame to own as fast as possible those lings then your tanks will be free to 2 shot roaches. You should take your third at around 11-12min. Now you have 5 factories and can add a mass marines to deal with mutas magic box. 17-18min you have 3-3 upgrade on your mech units so you still one shot lings/blings... The only weakness of this build is zerg drop, but most of zerg don't use drop lol whereas in BW they were abusing of it oO | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
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Keldaur
Spain55 Posts
On October 28 2010 05:15 Alphasquad wrote: roaches killed hellions with 3 range and now with 4 range - the hellion harass seems to be outdated simply because everyone would go for roaches more range or not (ofc roaches are now better against everything on the ground but that doesnt mean they were bad before), this way im saying the reason why zerg players beat terrans is because the terrans just used their strats over and over and zergs adapted to and now the terrans have do adapt but they didnt do yet even though terrans have the most variability Hellions are really fast, i always have a reactored factory on mid/lategame just for blue hellions. You can move some of them around and kill queens/drones (4 to kill a queen). That way you are spreading his forces and hurting his eco all the time. I know, some maps won't let you do that, but in most maps, after third expansion, it's relative easy to do it while you are pushing somewhere else. With range 3, you could kite the roaches, with range 4 and the time the hellion takes to shoot, you can't kite them efficiently. But hey, i am still in love with them :p Also, don't forget they are a great sink for minerals if you are going mech. | ||
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cskalias.pbe
United States293 Posts
Tank marine really does suck though below 4 or 5 tanks, but above that they seem like the most cost efficient counter to hydra/roach/infestor play as soo many units die as they are getting into range. microing the tanks is important too, i always shift attack the units near the center of the clumps. also, +carapace doesn't own terran tanks. The terran will be upgrading their attack as well | ||
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lofi01
Australia52 Posts
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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
On October 28 2010 05:27 deeshoo wrote: 2FresH, I think your build looks solid, but the replays you uploaded seem to only show the effectiveness of blue flame hellion drops (and banshees in the second game), since the zerg seemed to get super turtly after those harasses. I can see with marauder/tank support it would decimate the early zerg ground army, which is good, but I'm still unwary about the speedling/baneling/muta combo, which you say this build shines against. Can you show a replay of that? Also, you seem to get marine upgrades, especially stim, pretty late, despite having enough money to do so at any point. Is there a reason for this? first, thanks for watching the replays. I do have a few replays of raven dominance against muta/ling/bling I will look once i get home. I was actually hoping to play a few decent zergs on ladder tonite/tmrw and upload those replays. (sadly, I didn't save all my replays) i dont usually get stim because this kind of unit composition isnt meant to be a quick battle ender. as u know autoturrets last decades and therefore the whole purpose of marine/hellion (as mineral sinks) are to last as well. stim is great, dont get me wrong, but only a temporary dps boost at the expensve of health. with no medvacs, i dont see stim being that important. I do get it if the game goes later because the only hard counter to my build is hive ultras (I have replays of me raping broodlord/corruptors). If the zerg manages to pump ultras, I transition all my rax into techlab rax's and pump marauders and of course get stim (ideally before). once you get used to this build, like I am now, it becomes natural to slow push with positino against zerg (as Blizz would have us seem thats how they want TvZ to roll out) where gaining ground, slowly, is still better than gaining no ground. to elaborate, auto turrets dont move. theyre virtually worse than a "slow-siege tank push" because siege tanks can still move once out of siege mode. I've done this strat countless times, if I rape the zergs expo with hellion/marine/raven (posible banshee) push, I do not simply send my units into his main because: 1. I probly dont have energy to produce more ATs in the main which would greatly expose my mineral investments 2. I'd rather expand and further take more map control (the left over ATs will sit in the zergs expo [or whereever you fought him, ideally his expo or main] for a long time and he will have to deal with them eventually.. since they last a LONG time) i guess i didnt post any replays showing the powerful dominance my build has versus muta/bling/ling because I assumed most have seen, or can visualize in their mind, the power of auto turret,hsm,PDD vs muta/ling/bling. but either way ill definately upload a few more replays since people are finally taking my strat seriously :D (i posted it a few times in the past month, its been tweaked but never got attention). | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
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deeshoo
United States319 Posts
i dont usually get stim because this kind of unit composition isnt meant to be a quick battle ender. as u know autoturrets last decades and therefore the whole purpose of marine/hellion (as mineral sinks) are to last as well. stim is great, dont get me wrong, but only a temporary dps boost at the expensve of health. with no medvacs, i dont see stim being that important. I do get it if the game goes later because the only hard counter to my build is hive ultras (I have replays of me raping broodlord/corruptors). If the zerg manages to pump ultras, I transition all my rax into techlab rax's and pump marauders and of course get stim (ideally before). That's understandable. If you're worried about marine longevity then what about combat shields or armor upgrades? | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
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sYstim
Canada161 Posts
On October 28 2010 10:18 deeshoo wrote: That's understandable. If you're worried about marine longevity then what about combat shields or armor upgrades? i get one tech lab for the sole purpose of combat shields and potentially getting stim just for future references. armor not so much so. id prefer +1 dmg on bio but usually dont bother unless i forecast the game going into late, which will require upgraded marauders. | ||
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BigFatRoAcH
Japan90 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On October 28 2010 13:04 Azzur wrote: Tonite's matches will feature 3 TvZ matchups with all the Terrans being top class (Ensnare, ITR, Nada). It will be interesting to see what their builds are going to be. I'm predicting marine/tank because it's probably a little too late to change their builds mid-tournament. However, I'm hoping that they will show something different! These games will do much to forging the TvZ theory. Agreed, it's going to be a great GSL day. Since I'm playing Zerg, I do want the Zs to win... but I feel that these terrans can prove once and for all that Z isn't overpowered, so I also hope that they play well and show everyone how terrans need to play, hopefully in macro-games instead of doing all-in marine pushes. | ||
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positron.
634 Posts
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mati
Argentina114 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Hopetorture shows us a really nice timing push on the weak point where zerg are about to get mutas, with a drop of blue hellions/marauderer + landed vikings. Great win NaDa show us that T can out macro Z on large maps, with a insanely large mech build, into a good doom push for the kill when he felt the time was right. And then made a 2 base push to a about to get 4th base zerg, with sieges and a amazing micro on marine spreading (no medivacs), dealing with Infestor/Speedlings/Bannelings on fight that before it start look like zerg was going to win, and end up pretty much one sided for terran... And maybe not the biggest Zerg names on GSL, but i bet they are way much better than any zerg we could ever face on ladder. Zerg is not OP! the game now is different... Terran need to adapt. Im not saying game is balanced, still need lot of work, but for real, is getting closer and closer on each step. By the other hand Kyrix shows some awesome ultra agresive play, and shows it can work pretty well (he is now a Class S Player! )... And check could win thouse matches, he didnt because he didnt play very well... but wasnt so much of a "game balance" issue, as a better played issue. | ||
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mati
Argentina114 Posts
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
On October 28 2010 20:07 positron. wrote: TvZ nowadays is a joke really. Whoever thought of that game breaking units of banellings should be ashamed of themselves. Give Terran the goliaths back so at least they can mass goliaths and go mech. and what would zerg do without banelings - nothing would beat bio with medivac | ||
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osten
Sweden316 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Ensnare vs Kyrix] + Game 1: Convincing early bunker/marine pressure, and forces drones to be pulled. Even though it was fended off, I think it did reasonable damage and the Terran was ahead. This type of build seems to be quite successful (also see FakeBoxer vs FruitDealer, game 1). Game 2: Zerg ninja expand sees them outmacro the Terran in the critical midgame/endgame battles. Lesson: Scout for those expands! Game 3: I didn't understand Ensnare's play for his early poke. He knew the Zerg was one-basing and he did do reasonable damage (killed lings/overlords) with his early poke. He should've retreated and I believed he would've won as he would've fended the mutas off very easily. Since the zerg was 1-basing, Ensnare should have expected reasonable number of units? Even then, after taking his 2nd, his timing attack was almost successful and it was the drones that swung the battle. + Show Spoiler [ITR vs Check] + Game 1: ITR > 6 pool. Game 2: ITR gets around 6 vikings (probably suspected mutas) and kills overlords. Does this brilliant timing drop (and landed his vikings) to kill the Zerg natural. After that, he went for the kill (a drop) and came through. Although I believed he should've probably just played safe off 2-bases. Great drop to try against a 2-base muta build (esp in Scrap Station, we'll expect the Zerg's to pretty much play that way). + Show Spoiler [Nada vs Leenok] + Game 1: Don't piss off the Genius Terran with a 6-pool and force him to take off his jacket. It'll cost you in games 2 and 3. Game 2: Cross positions on Shakuras Temple (a large map). Goes thor/helion/marine vs muta/bling/ling. So happy to witness this as I believe this build is strongest against the muta/bling/ling. Watch for awesome macro and a Terran taking a third base. Game 3: Marine/tank build for a 2-base timing attack. Once again, we see that single banshee. That single banshee seems to be very popular in TvZ play. It seems the pros favour marine/tank in smaller maps. | ||
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