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We've been seeing alot of Terran FE in this matchup which I like a lot as I believe that is Terran's strongest response to the Zerg FE.
After that the Terran's transition to a 3-rax, 1-fact, marine/tank build. Even in the games that the Terran won, I feel that they were really walking a tightrope where 1 mistake could cost them their army. Thus, I don't really like this build that much.
One thing I saw that was nice is the 1 banshee play (e.g. Loner), and I think we'll see a lot of Terrans make at least one. I feel that Terrans can maybe build even more, for they do very well against roach. What do people think of a thor/marine/banshee (and maybe helion) build?
I feel that this build is stronger against muta play? If the Zerg goes roach heavy, maybe add in more banshee?
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marine/tank/raven is great but as you said, it's very risky/difficult to execute correctly. One FG -> baneling or baneling surround and your toast. Very fragile play but in midgame its a great push.
I prefer:
15 OC
1 rine
techlab -> reaper poke -> stim
2nd rax
@400 minerals: CC
@ 100 gas: factory
get 3ish hellions, 10 units of rine/rauder mix, adjust to what he builds; lots of spines/roaches, more rauders and less hellions. Just to put pressure.
Transition into thor/marauder as base, add hellion/rine as needed. Push out at +2 thors and grab 3rd as you do it.
imho thor/marauder push when you asap get +2 and FE is so beastly and much less risky than marine/tank
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Since almost all of them lost, i'm not sure this strat is the best possible. I like builds where you focus on harassment first and then expand more.
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I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up:
+ Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do.
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I'm glad to see the futile attempts of hellion harass are gone. Still, it seems like the margin of error when doing bio-heavy builds is extremely narrow and I'm still not sure whether perfect execution of these builds will be sufficient to beat almost flawless Z players like the dealer.
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On October 27 2010 04:21 EmilA wrote:
I'm glad to see the futile attempts of hellion harass are gone. Still, it seems like the margin of error when doing bio-heavy builds is extremely narrow and I'm still not sure whether perfect execution of these builds will be sufficient to beat almost flawless Z players like the dealer.
This, if people thought zerg macro was unforgiving they didn't try doing marine/tank pushes versus competent zergs. You get punished so bad for even the smallest of slip ups.
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watch MVP match with zenio. His MMM micro > muta/ling/bling
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Reactor hellion is dead. (Also, watch Boxer play the FD at Blizzcon. He pulled some amazing early aggression that really kept him in the game.
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On October 27 2010 04:41 Benshin88 wrote:
watch MVP match with zenio. His MMM micro > muta/ling/bling
lol, is that why he lost?
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yeah well the GSL matches are showing just how strong zerg is. terrans are getting proper stomped, and yes as terran its always walking a line against zerg. zerg in sc2 marcos even harder than zerg in BW.
main problem is the terran cant afford to lose his army while the zerg can. that always screws the terran.
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yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
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Terran in the matchup has to either do either really strong damage with hellion or banshee harass or do a very well microed marine tank 2 base timing attack. I just don't know what else they can do and I have to agree with the walking the tightrope analogy. I just got finished watching the gsl matches from this morning and
+ Show Spoiler +
It really felt like mvp and maka weren't making that many mistakes and playing pretty well while the zergs (especially thewind) did some bad things like throwing away broodlords and letting a mutalisk ball die to only stimmed marines instead of running away and it just didn't matter. The matchup feels really imbalanced right now, possibly as bad or worse than it was before but in the opposite direction.
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On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:+ Show Spoiler +yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
Replays or it didn't happen. (I'm sure it happened, I just want reps  )
I play in an almost exclusively BoX environment: whether in tourneys or vs friends. (We're mostly 500-2k diamond).
After experimenting a lot and theorycrafting almost as much, lately I've been focusing on various 1 base allin or 1-2 rax->FE -> 2 base allin. I feel that if I let the game drag out to the point where I need a 3rd base, my chance of winning plummet. At the current stage of development, Terrans have the best chance of winning various probable engagements in the early-to-mid midgame.
I vary the timing and the composition of this allin, but in BoX, there's only so many different timings you can do. In my experience, the best bet has been to hide the tech as well as you can and hope you outmindgame your opp. As most Terrans already know from beta, outmacroing a Zerg is essentially suicide unless you are putting up serious harass forcing him to spend money on Defense/side tech.
With the changes to our harassment options, I find that harassment doesn't pay for itself on a case by case basis so I only sporadically employ it to keep Zergs playing honest. (I focus on harass in maybe 20% of my games.)
If other Terrans have found more optimal TvZ playstyles/build orders against 1500-2100 zergs, I'm ready to learn.
Side Note: While I was watching the GSL vods this morning, I thought it was really interesting that at least two different Terrans over three different games went hat block in TvZ (ebay or depot).
Last night, we had 6 people testing various 14-16 hat blocks (depot) to see their viability in TvZ. We came to the tentative conclusion that if the terran merely dances with the scv with placing a depot, the Terran is slightly ahead compared to normal game, and if he places and later cancels the depot postlings, he is slightly behind compared to a normal game. Obviously if he fails and doesn't cancel he's far behind.
Depot + cancel necessitates T delaying gas and placing 2-3 scvs at the bottom of the ramp on close pos/steppes to survive the first 6 lings. There's a very good chance there's a xsition to blings with his slings, so recommendation is to have your second rax go tech asap.
On October 27 2010 05:36 proxY_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Terran in the matchup has to either do either really strong damage with hellion or banshee harass or do a very well microed marine tank 2 base timing attack. I just don't know what else they can do and I have to agree with the walking the tightrope analogy. I just got finished watching the gsl matches from this morning and + Show Spoiler +
It really felt like mvp and maka weren't making that many mistakes and playing pretty well while the zergs (especially thewind) did some bad things like throwing away broodlords and letting a mutalisk ball die to only stimmed marines instead of running away and it just didn't matter. The matchup feels really imbalanced right now, possibly as bad or worse than it was before but in the opposite direction.
The word imbalanced is such a hard word to define, I usually don't use it.
+ Show Spoiler +What is the measuring stick for whether something is balanced or not? Assuming perfect play who wins? But what if one side has to have three times the skill to play at the same "perfect" level? If we instead measure balance as "results assuming equal skill", what points of skill should we consider? Progamer only? Every level? What in what proportions is even considered skill?
Reaction speed to certain things? Mechanical requirements to execute a certain task? Game sense to guesstimate the various factors deciding who's ahead/behind? Multitask? Strategical insight? Obviously these all matter, but to what extent?
If one side needs less than 2 second reaction time to all events and the other has a higher requirement for multitask but all else is near equal, is this "balanced"? I think we can begin to see that the further we delve into the "balance" argument, the murkier the lines become until we reach a point where we begin to contradict ourselves because of all the various parameters we keep in mind. Such is the danger of theorycraft.
Instead, I approach various BoX series in a frame of mind that I will do what will give me the best chance to:
A) Win this series
B) Win this tournament
C) Win future tournaments
Let the devs worry about balance. I know it is in the best interests of Blizzard to balance the game, therefore there's no need for me to expend energy to try to figure out for them how to balance it. If I'm going to do that work for them, I better damn well get paid for it.
Instead, all I can do figure the strats with the best ROI for my goals of A, B, and C.
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the thing is zergs potential of denying thirds is too good. assuming they do everything right like fruitdealer then terran should never be able to take a third base and hold it. they can send a ovie there creep it and even lay a creep tumor which mean syour gunna need to pull forces to take that expo...wait for the creep to go away and potential waste a scan to do so and then the zerg automatically knows ur there and can basically just kill you and if you pull forces your vulnerable to a ling banelings roach allin on your main and you lose.
right now it isn't impossible to take a third but with the potential fruit dealer is displaying, terran cannot take a third.
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On a side note, but related to these same matches: They mostly seemed to get MM + some mech.
MM is pretty counterable now that zergs learned to deal with it imo. I never lose to mmm anymore, but mech is pretty dang hard.
Anyways, perhaps the reason they want to expand quick is to fund those thors!!!
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On October 27 2010 05:52 Raiznhell wrote:
the thing is zergs potential of denying thirds is too good. assuming they do everything right like fruitdealer then terran should never be able to take a third base and hold it. they can send a ovie there creep it and even lay a creep tumor which mean syour gunna need to pull forces to take that expo...wait for the creep to go away and potential waste a scan to do so and then the zerg automatically knows ur there and can basically just kill you and if you pull forces your vulnerable to a ling banelings roach allin on your main and you lose.
right now it isn't impossible to take a third but with the potential fruit dealer is displaying, terran cannot take a third.
In my BoX tourneys, Zergs are starting to catch on to:
Get overlord drop and make an extra queen.
Tumor every base on the map, then put a second tumor close by enough to recreep).
So annoying! I think they're trying to pay us back for all the harassment we did unto them.
But FWIW, I never liked harassment based play, I just felt it was my best chance to win.
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On October 27 2010 05:36 proxY_ wrote:Terran in the matchup has to either do either really strong damage with hellion or banshee harass or do a very well microed marine tank 2 base timing attack. I just don't know what else they can do and I have to agree with the walking the tightrope analogy. I just got finished watching the gsl matches from this morning and + Show Spoiler +
It really felt like mvp and maka weren't making that many mistakes and playing pretty well while the zergs (especially thewind) did some bad things like throwing away broodlords and letting a mutalisk ball die to only stimmed marines instead of running away and it just didn't matter. The matchup feels really imbalanced right now, possibly as bad or worse than it was before but in the opposite direction.
Maka marched his MM army half way across the map in the first 10 mintues and go decimated..
Why shouldn't TheWind throw units away when he's on 5 bases against 2? He basically had Maka on his knees at that point.
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On October 27 2010 05:57 Emperor_Earth wrote:
So annoying! I think they're trying to pay us back for all the harassment we did unto them. You deserve it, though :D
Both players in that GSL Match made huge mistakes, not only the zerg player wasted his forces.
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Nice to see a somewhat civil discussion on this topic. I'm with a few of these posters in that though it IS possible for terrans to win with MM/Tank, it really allows for such a small margin of error and is extremely micro intensive. I've tried different avenues and have thus far been unsuccessful. I've noticed a significant increase in the viability of mass roach vs thor play as well.
The problem I've been seeing from my own games as well as professional and GSL games is that even if you have a good unit combination against the zerg's, your tech switching is far more difficult than your opponent. An example would be the transitions between broodlords and ultras in the games vs. Maka. Both require totally different unit compositions.
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On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:
yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
I think we just played against eachother. tooFreSH right? Your build is insanely annoying.
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IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. If zerg reacts well, the harass will have no effect, and the terran has almost lost. IMo therefore most good terrans tvz openings relys on doing a little presusre while expanding, so that the zerg has to invest in some defense.
But yeh, there are really no good openings in this MU, as its pretyt imbalanced.
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If you say it's insanely annoying, must make it fairly viable! GJ 2Fresh!
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On October 27 2010 04:41 Benshin88 wrote:
watch MVP match with zenio. His MMM micro > muta/ling/bling
that match was crazy but also if you fail with micro you fail and OP said he doesnt want a build where 1 mistake can cost you the game.
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Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there.
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The fact that Fruit Dealer found ZvT downright easy before the patch is a testament to the fact that ZvT imba was already diminishing before this 1.2 even came out imo.
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The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity.
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I doubt he said it was easy. He probably said it was his best matchup. Huge difference.
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On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity.
Your forgetting about the ability to hatch first without fear which is a bit bigger then the roach range increase IMO.
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i believe that as TvZ you just cant afford to make any bio anymore, banelings are such a cheap and easy solution and combined with anything else, make life very difficult and micro reliant.
i like to open gas before rax then go reactor factory hellions into expand and straight mech (all factoires, no rax's or starports). have 1 factory with a reactor pumping hellions the whole game as a mineral sink and the rest with tech labs pumping thors at first, but if you scout roaches, tanks.
when its time to push out, Ebay and turrets on mineral line.
when you push, take a bunch of scvs with u on follow with auto repair.
hellions will take care of lings / banes / hydra
thors can deal with anything somewhat but especially muta / broodlord (with hellions on the ground broodlords do almost nothing)
if you get tanks then u can cover roaches and banelings even better
then the key is to make sure you match up your composition as the game progresses.
so far ive had a huge amount of success with this so far at lower diamond level, maybe a higher diamond can let me know if this will continue to be viable?
ps. nydus is a bit scary due to lack of mobility, but usually i am able to scout the network and prepare.
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On October 27 2010 07:23 Kolu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity. Your forgetting about the ability to hatch first without fear which is a bit bigger then the roach range increase IMO.
agreed, zerg got a huge economy boost due to lack of terran harass options early game, and that has changed the match up significantly. i believe you need a fairly quick expand to keep up with zerg these days, and you ideally want to end the match on 2 base (where terran feels strongest imho)
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On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity.
IdrA's first GSL match shows how good Battlecruisers are in TvZ. They got kited by Queens long enough for mutas to show up and overrun them. Terran doesn't have enough efficient options that Zerg can't punish. Ghosts are meh and can't really do anything against mass Zerg units that I can think of. Snipe might be good but I haven't seen relevant use of it. Raven's are probably the most viable underused unit right now. For some reason Terran's aren't realizing how good creep is and how easy they are to kill.
I can't see why early pushes just to kill creep tumors coming out from the Zerg's natural would be ineffective; It forces more creep tumors, which means less larvae.
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On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there.
This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels.
How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion.
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it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks?
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On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks?
Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more.
On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. .
Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong.
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On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks?
Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar?
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On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong.
I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit.
The only time i lose against zerg is when they go the 'fruitdealer' type of play where they take 4/5 bases when im still making the crictical amount of thors/tanks i need to push out. Also if my helion drops are not being effective.
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On October 27 2010 07:23 Kolu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity. Your forgetting about the ability to hatch first without fear which is a bit bigger then the roach range increase IMO.
THat is THE biggest thing. Getting a hatch first means great economy early game. And since most Terrans feel Hellions are dead, you can drone for a good few mins as zerg, which makes them so much stronger as their economy lead snowballs into mid late game.
On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit. The only time i lose against zerg is when they go the 'fruitdealer' type of play where they take 4/5 bases when im still making the crictical amount of thors/tanks i need to push out. Also if my helion drops are not being effective.
That's basically what top level Terrans are struggling with I think. They FE because harassing the Zerg is way harder than before. That means Zerg can expand, drone up, defend a push, and mass expand again.
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On October 27 2010 05:43 Emperor_Earth wrote:
What is the measuring stick for whether something is balanced or not? Assuming perfect play who wins? But what if one side has to have three times the skill to play at the same "perfect" level? If we instead measure balance as "results assuming equal skill", what points of skill should we consider? Progamer only? Every level? What in what proportions is even considered skill?
Reaction speed to certain things? Mechanical requirements to execute a certain task? Game sense to guesstimate the various factors deciding who's ahead/behind? Multitask? Strategical insight? Obviously these all matter, but to what extent?
If one side needs less than 2 second reaction time to all events and the other has a higher requirement for multitask but all else is near equal, is this "balanced"? I think we can begin to see that the further we delve into the "balance" argument, the murkier the lines become until we reach a point where we begin to contradict ourselves because of all the various parameters we keep in mind. Such is the danger of theorycraft.
This needs to be stickied and posted in the header of every thread.
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On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar?
I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too.
What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game.
I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army...
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On October 27 2010 04:51 sodoff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:41 Benshin88 wrote:
watch MVP match with zenio. His MMM micro > muta/ling/bling lol, is that why he lost?
zenio had to switch to drop-centric play in game three because ling/bling/muta proved ineffective against MVP
all the T's that qualified were probably using reapers to beat Z's, and similar hard harass strategys
since those all got nerfed, the T's in the tournament may not accurately represent the T's that are best against Z anymore
On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there.
ITR played fairly standard with little harass in those finals, so his chance of winning is relatively unaffected
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On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit.
Yeah, mech isn't worthless, but it's kind of a ladder strat and not a tourney strat, imo. For example, I beat most zergs going 15cc on ladder, but in a Bo3, I would never be able to win with it twice because once you lose to it once it's pretty obvious how to beat it. I also beat a lot of zergs on ladder opening 2port banshees, but once again, this is a ladder strat that would be terrible as a standard build.
I don't see how you'd be able to beat a good zerg multiple times in a row with mech. Every mech composition is so exploitable. Would definitely like to see replays if you're beating high-level zergs multiple times in a row.
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On October 27 2010 03:09 Azzur wrote:
We've been seeing alot of Terran FE in this matchup which I like a lot as I believe that is Terran's strongest response to the Zerg FE.
After that the Terran's transition to a 3-rax, 1-fact, marine/tank build. Even in the games that the Terran won, I feel that they were really walking a tightrope where 1 mistake could cost them their army. Thus, I don't really like this build that much.
One thing I saw that was nice is the 1 banshee play (e.g. Loner), and I think we'll see a lot of Terrans make at least one. I feel that Terrans can maybe build even more, for they do very well against roach. What do people think of a thor/marine/banshee (and maybe helion) build?
I feel that this build is stronger against muta play? If the Zerg goes roach heavy, maybe add in more banshee?
I strongly agree with you Azzur. I really don't know why these terrans choose to play this style against zerg. We've seen it since GSL 1, especially in the finals. It doesn't work. Any bio play, I don't care how good your marine spread or micro is, will not keep up with a 3 base zerg muta/bling/sling.
The only chance I think it has is if you can hit a good timed attack, although it seems the Korean zergs are completely prepared with roach and bane speed before the push comes..
Personally, I wish more Koreans would adapt TLO's style of TvZ. Which is mass mech play. Or at least really utilize Thors. I myself am 1800+ zerg and can stomp any bio play throw at me. It's the mass mech that I absolutely cannot deal with.
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On October 27 2010 15:28 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:51 mGMUSE wrote:On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. On October 27 2010 06:42 Hider wrote:
IMO terran harass in tvz without expo = cheese. . Not that I disagree, but fast expanding TvZ is even cheesier. Any good zerg who scouts a fast expand will just massively out-drone and out-expand you and you won't be able to do anything. Fast expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong. I go mechplay all the time vs zergs on ladder and win 80% of my games. Of course even though im a 2k diamond i understand that the play at this level is nothing compared to the pros'. A good mechplay involves scouting what your opponent is making and adapt accordingly. Helions take care of lings, tanks take care of roaches/some blings, thors(with some rines mixed in) take care of mutas and absorbs banelings hit. Yeah, mech isn't worthless, but it's kind of a ladder strat and not a tourney strat, imo. For example, I beat most zergs going 15cc on ladder, but in a Bo3, I would never be able to win with it twice because once you lose to it once it's pretty obvious how to beat it. I also beat a lot of zergs on ladder opening 2port banshees, but once again, this is a ladder strat that would be terrible as a standard build. I don't see how you'd be able to beat a good zerg multiple times in a row with mech. Every mech composition is so exploitable. Would definitely like to see replays if you're beating high-level zergs multiple times in a row.
what keeps you from mixing it up in a bo3?
the stuff you talk about alone is enough to play a totally different strat evry game in a bo3. which isnt even needed (many many people will stick to their standart and just bend it a bit when playing longer series).
i really think mech heavy play is totally underrated atm. you can do strong midgame pushes, you can go for macro games (trying to go for the good old mapsplit with PFs and sensor towers) and you have a very very strong lategame since 3-3 mech really just murders stuff.and the biggest bane of mech,the ultra, is WAY weaker then in 1.0 where people stopped meching cause it really crumbled once some ultras were out.
esp thors are so underused recently in tvz. evrytime i see a terran getting owned by muta harrass i facepalm and ask myself why they dont simply get A thor which shuts down ALL harrass in the base hes standing. a thor at that stage is in 99% of the situations better then 2 tanks. it shuts down harrass,snipes, makes muta micro impossible and is overall a good unit to have vs pretty much evry Z unit combo possible and also is great at defending due to scv mass repair. the only downside of the thor is the mobility. but since tanks are core and limit the mobility anyways its not like the thor is ever a bad choice.
@guy above
yeah banshees are another unit that people need to use way more. they are dirt cheap for the dmg they deal ,can really fuckup the Zs build/timings,provide nice scouts and it really is not hard to make it cost effective by killing a few drones even if the Z has proper defenses. lategame Zs often comit to pure ground (ultra/ling/infestor/baneling) where again 2 banshees suddenly shutting down a expo for some time can win games
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On October 27 2010 07:45 AeonXStrife wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:14 Jeffbelittle wrote:
The tournament hasn't been showing how overpowered Zerg is... it's been showing how unadaptive Terrans have been.
The zergs get one real buff. One. And it was +1 range on a unit that dies in numbers to both marines and or marauders, that can't shoot up.
What I wish would happen is if reapers were able to be built at proper times again, along with their upgrades, because the nerf was stupid overkill. I would have put the reaper nerf in the NEXT patch and see if the roach range upgrade was enough to avoid some serious loses.
But all in all, I just want to see some new terran play. More ravens for sure, but there are lots of units I haven't seen in terran use. Haven't heard much about battle cruisers, only heard a little about ghosts, seems nobody uses reapers anymore, I mean come on. SOMEONE out there has to be trying some fun and nifty things to give the terran edge and spark back. I think it's just a-moving terran don't auto win against zerg forces AS MUCH anymore because finally we have some concavity. IdrA's first GSL match shows how good Battlecruisers are in TvZ. They got kited by Queens long enough for mutas to show up and overrun them. Terran doesn't have enough efficient options that Zerg can't punish. Ghosts are meh and can't really do anything against mass Zerg units that I can think of. Snipe might be good but I haven't seen relevant use of it. Raven's are probably the most viable underused unit right now. For some reason Terran's aren't realizing how good creep is and how easy they are to kill. I can't see why early pushes just to kill creep tumors coming out from the Zerg's natural would be ineffective; It forces more creep tumors, which means less larvae.
The problem with early pushes to clean out creep tumors is this: Terran can't just push out whenever he feels like it. Couple of reasons:
1. Muta threat. This may or may not be a problem depending on the timing, but a quick raven with marines is probably cutting it close if you don't pressure before hand.
2. Zerg's units are faster than T's. A terran can't just push up and then retreat when he feels like it. The Z can see the push coming, react by building counter-units, and chase the entire force back if and when he feels it's safe.
As the matchup stands and as has been stated elsewhere in this thread, T can't afford to throw away any units at all anymore. The more or less free Z natural is just too much to risk making early blunders.
http://sc2casts.com/cast1276-FruitDealer-vs-MioWeRRa-1-Game-Battle.net-Match-Korean-Starcraft-Match
Here's a replay demonstrating how hard TvZ is right now, MioWeRRa vs. FruitDealer no less. Now I know the dealer is a god, but he makes some mistakes in this match. But it just doesn't matter and T runs out of steam and gets rolled anyway.
T just can't damage Z economy enough to make any real difference in the early game. So T pushes with a huge marine/tank force that gets fucking rolled by roaches in a stupid awesome defense by FruitDealer. Mio then transitions into drop play, managing to damage a lot of mutas and wreck a whole bunch of the Z main. Doesn't matter thou, Z has already taken a 3rd and his economy is so great that baneling/roach neutralizes T's next push and T crumbles under the next counter.
Maybe my play-by-play isn't perfect. But it certainly looks to me like the way things are, it's nearly impossible for a T to take a 3rd base. It's either win with a 2 base push or Z just outmacroes you and waits for you to make a mistake.
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On October 27 2010 07:07 blagoonga123 wrote:
The fact that Fruit Dealer found ZvT downright easy before the patch is a testament to the fact that ZvT imba was already diminishing before this 1.2 even came out imo.
this is exactly true, those who cannot see it.... are blind
User was warned for this post
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I think it was Maka who used a thor in his army and drop ships to make his army more mobile, and when mutas found his dropships the first thing he did was drop the thor which made it tricky for the zerg to pick off the drop ships without losing mutas. He was basically allowed to move around with the drop ships anyway he wanted without much of a threat.
I thought that was an excellent way of dealing with the problem of risking to lose your whole fucking army for moving out.
Obviously a burrowed infestor could fuck that shit up, but he probably knew that the zerg couldn't have that at the moment.
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On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army...
Mass Marine isn't viable because 2 banelings worth 100 minerals and 50 gas can instantly blow up 1000 minerals worth of marines (even with combat shield). See the Loner vs Terious game for reference.
I also think Zerg's lategame is way stonger than Terran's, even if Terran's 200/ 200 defeats Zerg's 200/ 200, Zerg will be back to 200 almost immediately whilst Terran is stuck remaking units 1 at a time. I think the patch made clear that the Terran race relied heavily on doing early economic damage to win matches before the patch. Which is why the race was considered overpowered and Zerg wasn't fun to play.
I'm not the biggest fan of cheese but the new patch practically ensure Zerg an economic advantage into the midgame. Terran practically has to go all-in to deny the fast expansion. I think that Blizzard will have to look at Zerg lategame after GSL.
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I think T needs a late game tool, that allows it to hold a 3rd base or at least be able to extend the mining.
P has the Mothership as their unique unit, doesn't hurt that T and Z have one too.
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On October 27 2010 13:56 ToxNub wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 05:43 Emperor_Earth wrote:
What is the measuring stick for whether something is balanced or not? Assuming perfect play who wins? But what if one side has to have three times the skill to play at the same "perfect" level? If we instead measure balance as "results assuming equal skill", what points of skill should we consider? Progamer only? Every level? What in what proportions is even considered skill?
Reaction speed to certain things? Mechanical requirements to execute a certain task? Game sense to guesstimate the various factors deciding who's ahead/behind? Multitask? Strategical insight? Obviously these all matter, but to what extent?
If one side needs less than 2 second reaction time to all events and the other has a higher requirement for multitask but all else is near equal, is this "balanced"? I think we can begin to see that the further we delve into the "balance" argument, the murkier the lines become until we reach a point where we begin to contradict ourselves because of all the various parameters we keep in mind. Such is the danger of theorycraft.
This needs to be stickied and posted in the header of every thread.
It's an excellent quick review of some of the questions that need to be answered in order to determine whether a generalizable imbalance is occuring. I fear it will be read by most as an indication that imbalance is a subjective phenomenon rather than just a very complicated objective phenomenon.
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Very inspiring play by boxer. Getting these unattended overlords with the early marines is definetely interesting. His Marine Micro was very solid. Something i will definately try to work on myself.
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On October 27 2010 16:43 BigMEAT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:07 blagoonga123 wrote:
The fact that Fruit Dealer found ZvT downright easy before the patch is a testament to the fact that ZvT imba was already diminishing before this 1.2 even came out imo. this is exactly true, those who cannot see it.... are blind User was warned for this post
After todays match, it seems like your words turned on you.
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T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
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On October 27 2010 18:49 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army... Mass Marine isn't viable
Now Now Now.
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What's wrong with hellion thor marine ravens ? It works for me. PDD against mutas, micro marines and hellions and you are pretty much set.
Don't forget to get armor upgrades for mech. But well, that's why i am asking why people stopped playing that ?
Roaches are not that great, instead of ravens you get shees if he goes heavy on roaches.
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On October 27 2010 18:58 BigFatRoAcH wrote:
I think T needs a late game tool, that allows it to hold a 3rd base or at least be able to extend the mining.
P has the Mothership as their unique unit, doesn't hurt that T and Z have one too.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe they should add an upgrade to let the command center shoot at enemies, like a defensive alternative to the orbital command upgrade?
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I think tasteless had a good idea to use an early reaper to shut down creep tumors, though it would get shut down as soon as slings show up, killing the first one or two creep tumors would be a pretty big set back for the cost IMO. Then in mid/late game maybe getting the reaper speed upgrade and use a small group of reapers to deny creep spread. I think as the meta game progresses denying creep will become an essential part of TvZ, getting creep all over the map is just too powerful when left unchecked.
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On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:
yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently played 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond to marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off
I'm very interested in seeing (and using) your style. Are you sure you don't want to upload like 1 or 2 replays showing it off? 
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On October 27 2010 06:35 leb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 05:03 2FresH wrote:
yea but zenio did not figure out how to baneling drop from ovies until game 3. mvp played great dont get me wrong but for that amount of effort to beat muta/ling/baneling isnt proper to me.
i've gone (almost)undefeated vs 1900+ zergs using my modified raven build that I took from Terran vs thewind.
basically, OC start, then fact @ 100 gas, tech lab after 2-3 marines (before fact finishes) when fact done, swap with tech lab, get infernal pre-igniter and a starport. make hellion asap (usually few minerals short) then pump 3 hellions. once starport is done, make a dropship. by the time the dropship is done,you will have 3 hellions with blue flame finishing on the travel to the zergs base. put 2 hellions in one dropship and send the other to decoy at expo. drop hellions and kill as MANY drones as possible. ive always had success with good micro(2 hellion w/ blueflame = auto dead drone). meanwhile, make a command centre (because ull be making addons/swapping buildings) first, then swap ur starport with the factory (starport w/ techlab now), make a reactor with the factory and another starport, then either: make a banshees if he went roaches (no cloak); or go raven. if he goes muta/bling/ling you're in great shape. get an eng bay around 8min. get +1 range FIRST. keep pumping ravens, marine, reactor hellions (usually have 3-4 rax with 1 techlab for marine shield). get +2 building armor from eng bay asap. this will thwart ANY muta rush with decently placed 2-3 turrets. also, +2 armor makes a PF almost immune to zerg with 4 turrets, so u can expo a 2nd time pretty safely. for the 2-3 times i've forgotten to get turrets up in time for mutas i just used 1-2 auto turrets (they rape mutas with the armor/range). then once u get 4-5 ravens, attack. MAKE SURE U DROP AT's (auto turrets) up first so they soak up damage, then bring your army and micro around the turrets. *remember, this is for the muta/baneling/ling strat* usually the first push ends it, if not the 2nd one will if you dont lose ravens. regardless, the best feature to this build is that YOU are the aggressor in this matchup. rather than relying on HARASSMENT, the zerg must respond to your build, not vice versa. I've seen countless high level games where the T is forced to respond with marine/tank because of baneling/muta.. well it doesnt add up and i've yet to see a Terran really make this build viable (yes MVP did well, but like i said above, it requires too much micro/skill for minimal gains; and no baneling+overlord was used in G1).
If the game progresses past the 1/2nd push with raven/marine/hellion/AT, then I switch to durable materials/HSM upgrades. this allows HSM to last VERY long and panic the zerg. in the event the game does go this far out, trust me, HSM will rape any muta combo (just bait him witth the ravens, he thinks you only got AT's most of the time).
--- if he went roaches i use the banshee build (i hit with 4, since 2 starport pump 4 banshees pretty fast, and 2 hit roaches and queens and can even take out single spore crawlers w/o losing one with micro). also, if i see he goes roaches, I make 2 tanks w/ siege outta my fact w/ tech lab before swapping it to a reactor for blueflame hellions. Sometimes I get 1 viking out first to harass ovies, and force a spire. thats what you want, YOU WANT A SPIRE!
I do have replays but am lazy to upload etc. but my record vs 1900+ zergs is IIRC 11-1. the one time I lost was to a roach/infestor build that caught ALL my ravens with fungal+infested terrans and.. that is GG right there. the whole point of the raven strat, like ive said in other posts, is to KEEP them(ravens) alive. every single raven has exponential value as the game progresses; whereas losing a marine is simply losing a marine, losing a raven is countless AT's, HSM, PDD potential.
PS. use auto turrets around the map to scout any harass, flying mutas, expos.. the autoturret for 50 mana lasts up to 6 min... well worth it to gain some map control and annoy zergs. not to mention, trading damage/potential killing mutas/zerg units for a MANA produced unit is a very, very good trade-off I think we just played against eachother. tooFreSH right? Your build is insanely annoying.
yep thats me :D
Okay ill upload some replays later tonight or tomorrow (got mts) I gotta dig em up. or maybe ill play some ladder and try to play as flawlessly as possible and upload an ideal replay =)
I'm calling it now: tvz is gunna have to involve some type of starport aggression with the recent reaper nerf... reactor hellion into mech just doesnt cut it as much as it should, theres too many possible counters to this build (dont end the game by hive and ur pretty much done). and as most ppl agree on this thread, MMM(or MM) + tank has very little margin for error and is not worth the risk. even a skilled player like mvp lost =(
with the starport aggression, many times my zerg opponent will sac an ovie and see 2 starport with tech lab and assume its autobanshee w/ cloak and, like tastostis have stated, this forces the zerg to promp at least ONE overseer+potential spore crawlers. I love this, not only are you leading the game, you're forcing your opponent to respond; and thus gives you window to choose between banshee (if roach) and raven (if muta/bling/ling). and trust me, spore crawlers do nothing vs ravens =D
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Yeah, I want to see the marine/helion/raven build as well! Sounds good and what I esp like about it is that it also allows the taking of the third base and how you state that you want to force a spire.
So far in the GSL, I've been seeing the Terran successful only when they do some sort of timing push (off 1 or 2 bases). It'll be nice if some form of management style Terran can be developed.
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Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit!
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I don't know if it's completely "non-cheesy" but it was a good play regardless.
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terran wins with 2 dropships full of marines against 2 zerglings and a queen
what a stable strategy that is
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well I quickly went thru my replays and forgot the best games to showcase this strat, but heres one against jkKwon (2250 zerg) that was 4 days ago and another vs a 1670 zerg (yes I know not the highest). The only reason why the 1st replay IS NOT ideal is:
1. I raped his drones with my hellion blue flame drop... I dont know what he was doing but he didnt seem to respond very well =\ and thus crippled him and unable of showing the true power of the ravens (since lesser army).
2. i didnt reactor my factory (forgot -_-) or make more rax (i usually do around the first push to spend my minerals).
3. HSM/durable materials is not shown here.
but I do attack once +2 armor is done for the ATs and the blue flame hellion into raven shows its powerful transition if opponent FE's into ling/muta. Ill post other replays after I play them.
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
I will upload a couple more that are showcase a more 'flawless' execution of my posted strat on page1 later on.
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On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit!
thats ignorant to say. fruitdealer was unprepared with over-droning and... one win doesnt mean anything. of course fruit dealer loses to some terrans but the % is extremely low; as is the terran winning ratio against diamond zergs
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On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit!
Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice.
I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame
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The win also relies on a lot of things that have been pointed out being still OP about Terran. (Some by Blizzard).
-No scouting the Terran base before Lair tech.
-Marines w/stim being entirely too cost effective.
-Medivacs being way too awesome in the early-game.
To name a few.
That being said, kudos to Fauxer for taking advantage of his races strengths in the MU, but I'm not sure how long such things will remain viable.
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On October 28 2010 02:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
The win also relies on a lot of things that have been pointed out being still OP about Terran. (Some by Blizzard).
-No scouting the Terran base before Lair tech.
-Marines w/stim being entirely too cost effective.
-Medivacs being way too awesome in the early-game.
To name a few.
That being said, kudos to Fauxer for taking advantage of his races strengths in the MU, but I'm not sure how long such things will remain viable.
"thing that have been pointed out being still OP about terran" ..really?
-there is nothing to scout before lair tech with no presence of reapers anymore. its either mm+tank or mech or 1-1-1. you can still sac an ovie if ur that desperate.
-marine with stim cost effective?? thats funny becus every single high-tier play ive seen in the past month has shown how cost effective BANELINGS are. factor in dropping banelings, and burrowed banelings and you have a winning formula for anti-marines.
-medivacs are a risky investment, and barely participate in the 'early' game. if you dont do significant damage early, you wont be able to drop later on with the risk of muta inteception. medvacs are so slow now i dont even risk doing drops on zergs except a hellion drop. the only purpose of medvacs now is to heal the bio army & drop/pickup mech units stranded in battle or to drop a thor onto 30 banelings
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On October 28 2010 02:09 Keldaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit! Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice. I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame
Can't believe I have to reply to this inanity, but here goes... I will NEVER speak about balance because I am obviously not good enuff to! As far as I am concerned only a top 200 player(or pro-gamer) has the rite to do so.
I however am speaking about mindsets and approaches to the game!
I see here in TL QQing has become a major fad for the fat-headed, average joe who thinks that the game has to be balanced for him and him alone. Sorry, but I don't care if you all lose all your TvZ's here on out, as long as the game is felt to be balanced at the highest level. I have gone thru all the interviews over the past few week including the SotG's and find not one player QQing at all other than maybe a very few.
GSL2 has been a revelation for me as to the potential of SC2 and has definitely converted ME, one of its doubters and a big BW fan, to its cause.
The only thing I find tough to put up with is the few bad eggs who wish they had 100% winrates in their leauges. So there...
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On October 27 2010 07:40 Jayzo wrote:
i believe that as TvZ you just cant afford to make any bio anymore, banelings are such a cheap and easy solution and combined with anything else, make life very difficult and micro reliant.
i like to open gas before rax then go reactor factory hellions into expand and straight mech (all factoires, no rax's or starports). have 1 factory with a reactor pumping hellions the whole game as a mineral sink and the rest with tech labs pumping thors at first, but if you scout roaches, tanks.
when its time to push out, Ebay and turrets on mineral line.
when you push, take a bunch of scvs with u on follow with auto repair.
hellions will take care of lings / banes / hydra
thors can deal with anything somewhat but especially muta / broodlord (with hellions on the ground broodlords do almost nothing)
if you get tanks then u can cover roaches and banelings even better
then the key is to make sure you match up your composition as the game progresses.
so far ive had a huge amount of success with this so far at lower diamond level, maybe a higher diamond can let me know if this will continue to be viable?
ps. nydus is a bit scary due to lack of mobility, but usually i am able to scout the network and prepare.
fyi thors have got to be one of the worst, if not the worst cost/per damage against broodlords...
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On October 28 2010 02:20 Firereaver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:09 Keldaur wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit! Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice. I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame Can't believe I have to reply to this inanity, but here goes... I will NEVER speak about balance because I am obviously not good enuff to! As far as I am concerned only a top 200 player(or pro-gamer) has the rite to do so. I however am speaking about mindsets and approaches to the game! I see here in TL QQing has become a major fad for the fat-headed, average joe who thinks that the game has to be balanced for him and him alone. Sorry, but I don't care if you all lose all your TvZ's here on out, as long as the game is felt to be balanced at the highest level. I have gone thru all the interviews over the past few week including the SotG's and find not one player QQing at all other than maybe a very few. GSL2 has been a revelation for me as to the potential of SC2 and has definitely converted ME, one of its doubters and a big BW fan, to its cause. The only thing I find tough to put up with is the few bad eggs who wish they had 100% winrates in their leauges. So there...
you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. you've gone through all the interviews eh?
let me take a fragment out of boxer/fruitdealer's interview:
"How do you view the recent patches?
Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic.
Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad."
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On October 28 2010 02:27 2FresH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:20 Firereaver wrote:On October 28 2010 02:09 Keldaur wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit! Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice. I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame Can't believe I have to reply to this inanity, but here goes... I will NEVER speak about balance because I am obviously not good enuff to! As far as I am concerned only a top 200 player(or pro-gamer) has the rite to do so. I however am speaking about mindsets and approaches to the game! I see here in TL QQing has become a major fad for the fat-headed, average joe who thinks that the game has to be balanced for him and him alone. Sorry, but I don't care if you all lose all your TvZ's here on out, as long as the game is felt to be balanced at the highest level. I have gone thru all the interviews over the past few week including the SotG's and find not one player QQing at all other than maybe a very few. GSL2 has been a revelation for me as to the potential of SC2 and has definitely converted ME, one of its doubters and a big BW fan, to its cause. The only thing I find tough to put up with is the few bad eggs who wish they had 100% winrates in their leauges. So there... you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. you've gone through all the interviews eh? let me take a fragment out of boxer/fruitdealer's interview: "How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad."
"other than maybe a very few."
Please read my post a little more carefully and also do a few background checks of the latest interviews. I will not be replying to any more random trolling.
P.S: I guess Fruit would not be giving the same reply were he to answer now. Lol.
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On October 28 2010 02:20 Firereaver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:09 Keldaur wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit! Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice. I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame Can't believe I have to reply to this inanity, but here goes... I will NEVER speak about balance because I am obviously not good enuff to! As far as I am concerned only a top 200 player(or pro-gamer) has the rite to do so.
But you did. Re-read why i quoted you. Oh man. Now, back to TvZ discussion, not QQin, l2p and that wow shit. That's pointless.
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On October 28 2010 02:19 2FresH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
The win also relies on a lot of things that have been pointed out being still OP about Terran. (Some by Blizzard).
-No scouting the Terran base before Lair tech.
-Marines w/stim being entirely too cost effective.
-Medivacs being way too awesome in the early-game.
To name a few.
That being said, kudos to Fauxer for taking advantage of his races strengths in the MU, but I'm not sure how long such things will remain viable. "thing that have been pointed out being still OP about terran" ..really? -there is nothing to scout before lair tech with no presence of reapers anymore. its either mm+tank or mech or 1-1-1. you can still sac an ovie if ur that desperate. -marine with stim cost effective?? thats funny becus every single high-tier play ive seen in the past month has shown how cost effective BANELINGS are. factor in dropping banelings, and burrowed banelings and you have a winning formula for anti-marines. -medivacs are a risky investment, and barely participate in the 'early' game. if you dont do significant damage early, you wont be able to drop later on with the risk of muta inteception. medvacs are so slow now i dont even risk doing drops on zergs except a hellion drop. the only purpose of medvacs now is to heal the bio army & drop/pickup mech units stranded in battle or to drop a thor onto 30 banelings
You've obviously never played Zerg. From being a 1.7k Terran before switching to Zerg I can tell that you for one Z is SO MUCH HARDER OMFG. I can understand the whole breadth of Zerg QQ. The toughness of Z has just made Zergs much better than Terrans since it forced them to exhaust all the resources of their race instead of being able to rely on one strat to get that nice 55% win rate that puts you in top diamond.
-lol yeah Terran only has those 3 builds. Very funny. No scouting before lair remains true since good Terrans have a huge amount of BOs that require different counters and it takes much greater skill to fend some stuff off than to stupidly do the BO while denying scouting.
-marine with stim is so fucking cost-effective. ONE stimmed marine is more than SIX TIMES as cost efficient as a mutalisk INCLUDING its bounce damage. Even the Blizz panel said that marine stim is the most fucking broken skill in the game. The only way to fight off marines is with splash and if you don't have it in the necessary quantities it's gg, while the Terran can still micro his way around splash. I think they should nerf the marine + stim while buffing it against splash damage so it just becomes a much more stable unit (I can remember the days of frustration vs. Colossus)
-medivacs are one of the least risky investments of the game. They give you map control (drop your enemy once and he's paranoid for the next 5 minutes), they heal your stuff, they allow for cliff play, they allow you taking island expansions. There's almost no instance where getting medivacs is a bad decision.
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On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
Link to replays?
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Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all.
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On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all.
and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio
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Regarding TvZ in the GSL, they have been doing what most Terrans I know have been doing in TvZ. They either ignore the macro issue and play to end the game in a 2 base allin. Zergs have not seen every timing we have yet, so in my experience it gives Terrans the best chance in TvZ at the moment.
The alternative is to hurt your own build in hopes of hurting the Zerg's eco more, usually with some form of early expo denial, whether this is bunkering the Zerg's normal 3rd or depot/ebaying the Zerg's nat.
While we Terrans have played around with thousands of different timings and strategies, those two focal points seem to give us the best chances long-term outside of gimmick strats. So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
Note* Right now, the idea I'm looking to find timings for this weekend is: 1/1/1 -> 3 hellion harass? (drop if no muta?) -> 4/1/1 (ups @ 2/1) allin
The ideas I'm looking to abuse are:
Terran army strength growing nonlinearly with army numbers
1/1/1 flexibility means that you can xsition to almost anything so it requires the Zerg to sac an extra ovie if not mutaing
Zergs tend to roach if raxfact and sling/bling if raxrax. My idea is to invite roaches and 2reactor2tech allin before he can get bling speed and enough blings + position them all
Since he ideally went roach/sling, he probably wont' have melee attacks, so I try to find a crease timing in game between +0/+1 missile/carapace and +1/+2 missile/carapace
On October 28 2010 03:25 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. + Show Spoiler +and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio
Alphasquad, what specific key to killing blings have you spotted that 27,000 Diamond Terran players with over a combined 8.3 million TvZs under our respective belts completely missed and continue to ignore at our own peril?
Or are you insinuating that after about 2 million hours of TvZ played since launch, we have not figured out that blings rock bioballs?
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On October 27 2010 21:13 Alphasquad wrote:
T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
Those changes don't matter a lot? I can't even tell if you are serious or trolling. Looking at the change itself it is not a lot. But put it in game context where +1 range roach can fend off hellions easier and help Z take that 2nd base safely is a very HUGE change.
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I really think that instead of tanks, the Terran players should be replacing them with Thors. Something like Thor-Banshee-Marine is incredibly strong that's really difficult to deal with.
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TooFresh, I'm wondering what you do in a Best of X series against Zerg? This build seems to be fine, but it seems to be sorta all in-ish as well. If the hellions dont do huge economic damage, you're behind because you just spent you 'army' doing nothing. Say, in there were roaches in position an the Zerg actaully had ovies positioned to scout the drop? What do you do against a zerg who has already played against this strategy, and knows it is coming? It seems to be a good ladder strategy, but a bad one to use more than once in a Best of X series.
Thanks,
InfO
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On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all.
Yeah. If only fruitdealer had read your post... Hindsight is always 20/20. Please don't talk lightly of Fruitdealer! (Good grief, I didn't know this is wat the SC2 Strat forum had on offer..) In case you didn't know, Grack and Fruit have very similar macro styles. That strat alone is going to give Grack nightmares, just w8 and see.
P.S: Did you even see game2 ?
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I can't help but wonder what an early spine crawler would have done for the dealer in both games. I'm just a measly ladder player at 1900 diamond, but every god damn zerg seems to get one to stop early harassment.
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On October 28 2010 03:25 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio
I'm sure if Fruit had studied Fauxer a lot and Fauxer had shown that build consistently then Fruit would have been prepared. Either Fauxer was saving that/hiding it somehow or Fruit simply thought he would roll and did not put in a lot of study time specifically on Fauxer as opposed to just practicing vs Terran in general.
Here's the problem, even if what Fauxer did works the majority of the time to stop a FE then what does that say? The only way a Terran can win is for a timing push off 1 base vs zerg? How effing boring is that. Would be a terrible way to balance the game. You take out half the fun stuff in the game if Terran has to win before 10 minutes every bloody time.
Secondly, I contend that even with what Fauxer did, Fruit would crush that strat even today and certainly in the future 9 times out of 10. Fruit played as poorly as Idra did when he lost in GSL1 by not scouting. EVEN WITH HIS FE only the closeness of their positions in game 1 and Fruitdealers complete lack of scouting made Fauxer's strat viable. FruitDealer could have FE'd in most other positions on most maps and still been fine in game 1 even with no scouting. In game 2 Fruit played incredibly poorly by not scouting then trying to get 6 upgrades at the same time or whatever it was. He could have stomped what Fauxer did easily if he wasn't so greedy.
Fauxer vs Fruit game is a little blip in the metagame not a reflection of actual balance. Fruit was simply not prepared for whatever reason on a strategic level for Fauxer's strat and because it relies purely on suprise it is not viable consistently. If Fauxer tries that build vs the next zerg he plays if he gets one he'll get rolled like a little girl.
The point being, a zerg can easily prepare for what Fauxer threw at Fruit by being not quite so greedy and still being way way ahead of his terran opponent. Therefore, the strat does not reflect balance but merely a big flaw in Fruit's game that is probably already closed for the future.
Also, Fruit is an amazing lategame player however people treat him like he's invincible. He should have lost in the ro16 last GSL to Top if Top hadn't made an all time level blunder. Just because Fruit lost doesn't mean something especially more than another zerg losing. I would contend that Idra's playstyle is more stable and if his ZvZ is as good as his TvZ he'll run away with this tourny and we'll have back to back Zerg winners. More than that, Fruit winning last tourny when people though Zerg is underpowered is far more reflective on how wrong people were about balance 2 weeks ago then todays argument. Part of Fruitdealers reputation is built on winning when no other zerg could. That however was never the case. Zerg had a flawed playstyle and now their metagame has shifted dramatically and they were fine even before the new patch. No Terran was mass reapering in GSL1 anyway.
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O.M.G. + Show Spoiler +On October 28 2010 03:15 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:19 2FresH wrote:On October 28 2010 02:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
The win also relies on a lot of things that have been pointed out being still OP about Terran. (Some by Blizzard).
-No scouting the Terran base before Lair tech.
-Marines w/stim being entirely too cost effective.
-Medivacs being way too awesome in the early-game.
To name a few.
That being said, kudos to Fauxer for taking advantage of his races strengths in the MU, but I'm not sure how long such things will remain viable. "thing that have been pointed out being still OP about terran" ..really? -there is nothing to scout before lair tech with no presence of reapers anymore. its either mm+tank or mech or 1-1-1. you can still sac an ovie if ur that desperate. -marine with stim cost effective?? thats funny becus every single high-tier play ive seen in the past month has shown how cost effective BANELINGS are. factor in dropping banelings, and burrowed banelings and you have a winning formula for anti-marines. -medivacs are a risky investment, and barely participate in the 'early' game. if you dont do significant damage early, you wont be able to drop later on with the risk of muta inteception. medvacs are so slow now i dont even risk doing drops on zergs except a hellion drop. the only purpose of medvacs now is to heal the bio army & drop/pickup mech units stranded in battle or to drop a thor onto 30 banelings You've obviously never played Zerg. From being a 1.7k Terran before switching to Zerg I can tell that you for one Z is SO MUCH HARDER OMFG. I can understand the whole breadth of Zerg QQ. The toughness of Z has just made Zergs much better than Terrans since it forced them to exhaust all the resources of their race instead of being able to rely on one strat to get that nice 55% win rate that puts you in top diamond. -lol yeah Terran only has those 3 builds. Very funny. No scouting before lair remains true since good Terrans have a huge amount of BOs that require different counters and it takes much greater skill to fend some stuff off than to stupidly do the BO while denying scouting. -is a bad decision. marine with stim is so fucking cost-effective. ONE stimmed marine is more than SIX TIMES as cost efficient as a mutalisk INCLUDING its bounce damage. Even the Blizz panel said that marine stim is the most fucking broken skill in the game. The only way to fight off marines is with splash and if you don't have it in the necessary quantities it's gg, while the Terran can still micro his way around splash. I think they should nerf the marine + stim while buffing it against splash damage so it just becomes a much more stable unit (I can remember the days of frustration vs. Colossus) -medivacs are one of the least risky investments of the game. They give you map control (drop your enemy once and he's paranoid for the next 5 minutes), they heal your stuff, they allow for cliff play, they allow you taking island expansions. There's almost no instance where getting medivacs
Cost efficient!??!! O.M.G. Different unit types cannot be compared. I can understand if you compare marines and marauder or stalker or sumting like that... But why the heck have you bought up cost-efficiency here!??! Mutas are extremely versatile flying units with glaive damage and potential for harass and straight-up fights...
I'm not saying Zerg is easy to play, but if you practice its ceiling is effectively higher than terran. Which is the reason Grack chose to play zerg... But please acknowledge that Fauxers timing was so impeccable(and so was his picking off the overlord both times) . A timing push is a thing of great beauty when it works and is as difficult if not more to do as play Macro-Zerg.
Please do not give such vehement opinions regarding balance when both you and I are noone to talk about such things. Leave it to the pros. This is why the BW strat forum is actually a useful and non-QQ place!
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On October 28 2010 04:12 Firereaver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. Yeah. If only fruitdealer had read your post... Hindsight is always 20/20. Please don't talk lightly of Fruitdealer! (Good grief, I didn't know this is wat the SC2 Strat forum had on offer..) In case you didn't know, Grack and Fruit have very similar macro styles. That strat alone is going to give rack nightmares, just w8 and see. P.S: Did you even see game2 ?
And no, I disagree completely. Idra will roll over Fauxer is he tries that vs him. Fruit himself would roll over Fauxer if they played again I suspect. I'm not saying Fruit is a bad player. I'm saying he lost because he ran up against something he wasn't prepared for. If a player of his calibre is aware of that strat and practices vs it they will not lose to it. I suspect we'll never see Fruit be that greedy again vs T and that he'll scout more.
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On October 28 2010 04:21 Bluest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:25 Alphasquad wrote:On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio I'm sure if Fruit had studied Fauxer a lot and Fauxer had shown that build consistently then Fruit would have been prepared. Either Fauxer was saving that/hiding it somehow or Fruit simply thought he would roll and did not put in a lot of study time specifically on Fauxer as opposed to just practicing vs Terran in general. Here's the problem, even if what Fauxer did works the majority of the time to stop a FE then what does that say? The only way a Terran can win is for a timing push off 1 base vs zerg? How effing boring is that. Would be a terrible way to balance the game. You take out half the fun stuff in the game if Terran has to win before 10 minutes every bloody time. Secondly, I contend that even with what Fauxer did, Fruit would crush that strat even today and certainly in the future 9 times out of 10. Fruit played as poorly as Idra did when he lost in GSL1 by not scouting. EVEN WITH HIS FE only the closeness of their positions in game 1 and Fruitdealers complete lack of scouting made Fauxer's strat viable. FruitDealer could have FE'd in most other positions on most maps and still been fine in game 1 even with no scouting. In game 2 Fruit played incredibly poorly by not scouting then trying to get 6 upgrades at the same time or whatever it was. He could have stomped what Fauxer did easily if he wasn't so greedy. Fauxer vs Fruit game is a little blip in the metagame not a reflection of actual balance. Fruit was simply not prepared for whatever reason on a strategic level for Fauxer's strat and because it relies purely on suprise it is not viable consistently. If Fauxer tries that build vs the next zerg he plays if he gets one he'll get rolled like a little girl. The point being, a zerg can easily prepare for what Fauxer threw at Fruit by being not quite so greedy and still being way way ahead of his terran opponent. Therefore, the strat does not reflect balance but merely a big flaw in Fruit's game that is probably already closed for the future. Also, Fruit is an amazing lategame player however people treat him like he's invincible. He should have lost in the ro16 last GSL to Top if Top hadn't made an all time level blunder. Just because Fruit lost doesn't mean something especially more than another zerg losing. I would contend that Idra's playstyle is more stable and if his ZvZ is as good as his TvZ he'll run away with this tourny and we'll have back to back Zerg winners. More than that, Fruit winning last tourny when people though Zerg is underpowered is far more reflective on how wrong people were about balance 2 weeks ago then todays argument. Part of Fruitdealers reputation is built on winning when no other zerg could. That however was never the case. Zerg had a flawed playstyle and now their metagame has shifted dramatically and they were fine even before the new patch. No Terran was mass reapering in GSL1 anyway.
Very well said
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On October 28 2010 02:27 2FresH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:20 Firereaver wrote:On October 28 2010 02:09 Keldaur wrote:On October 28 2010 01:40 Firereaver wrote:
Anyone saying Zerg OP or even thinking it, I have one answer for you Fruitdealer Vs Fauxer GSL2 Ro 32.
This shows what happens when sum1 gets back to the drawing board and formulates a meta-game changing strat rather sit on their butts and QQ all day about the problem.
Major, MAJOR props to Fauxer for his amazing non-cheesy takedown of The Fruit! Somebody speaking about balance from 2 games. Nice. I don't think zerg are OP right now, just waiting how the patches change the metagame Can't believe I have to reply to this inanity, but here goes... I will NEVER speak about balance because I am obviously not good enuff to! As far as I am concerned only a top 200 player(or pro-gamer) has the rite to do so. I however am speaking about mindsets and approaches to the game! I see here in TL QQing has become a major fad for the fat-headed, average joe who thinks that the game has to be balanced for him and him alone. Sorry, but I don't care if you all lose all your TvZ's here on out, as long as the game is felt to be balanced at the highest level. I have gone thru all the interviews over the past few week including the SotG's and find not one player QQing at all other than maybe a very few. GSL2 has been a revelation for me as to the potential of SC2 and has definitely converted ME, one of its doubters and a big BW fan, to its cause. The only thing I find tough to put up with is the few bad eggs who wish they had 100% winrates in their leauges. So there... you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. you've gone through all the interviews eh? let me take a fragment out of boxer/fruitdealer's interview: "How do you view the recent patches? Boxer: I'm very weird, in every patch it's the units I love to use that are nerfed. Before, I liked to use tanks, and now they are nerfed. I also liked 3rax, but that strategy was nerfed. More unsettling is that not only was Terran nerfed, Zerg was buffed. I spent two hours writing a letter to David Kim (dayvie). Every time, the new patches are hard to adjust to, so I hope in the future the changes aren't cataclysmic. Fruitdealer: In terms of Zerg, aside from defense, right now playing is more comfortable due to less early problems. But it seems that the special aspects of SC2 have been decreasing. Even though I'm doing well, other players might consider it bad."
Matbe its me that just missed something but where in that interview does any of them say that the matchup is imbalanced? they do say that its less early problems = more balanced???
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On October 28 2010 03:15 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 02:19 2FresH wrote:On October 28 2010 02:12 Jermstuddog wrote:
The win also relies on a lot of things that have been pointed out being still OP about Terran. (Some by Blizzard).
-No scouting the Terran base before Lair tech.
-Marines w/stim being entirely too cost effective.
-Medivacs being way too awesome in the early-game.
To name a few.
That being said, kudos to Fauxer for taking advantage of his races strengths in the MU, but I'm not sure how long such things will remain viable. "thing that have been pointed out being still OP about terran" ..really? -there is nothing to scout before lair tech with no presence of reapers anymore. its either mm+tank or mech or 1-1-1. you can still sac an ovie if ur that desperate. -marine with stim cost effective?? thats funny becus every single high-tier play ive seen in the past month has shown how cost effective BANELINGS are. factor in dropping banelings, and burrowed banelings and you have a winning formula for anti-marines. -medivacs are a risky investment, and barely participate in the 'early' game. if you dont do significant damage early, you wont be able to drop later on with the risk of muta inteception. medvacs are so slow now i dont even risk doing drops on zergs except a hellion drop. the only purpose of medvacs now is to heal the bio army & drop/pickup mech units stranded in battle or to drop a thor onto 30 banelings You've obviously never played Zerg. From being a 1.7k Terran before switching to Zerg I can tell that you for one Z is SO MUCH HARDER OMFG. I can understand the whole breadth of Zerg QQ. The toughness of Z has just made Zergs much better than Terrans since it forced them to exhaust all the resources of their race instead of being able to rely on one strat to get that nice 55% win rate that puts you in top diamond. -lol yeah Terran only has those 3 builds. Very funny. No scouting before lair remains true since good Terrans have a huge amount of BOs that require different counters and it takes much greater skill to fend some stuff off than to stupidly do the BO while denying scouting. -marine with stim is so fucking cost-effective. ONE stimmed marine is more than SIX TIMES as cost efficient as a mutalisk INCLUDING its bounce damage. Even the Blizz panel said that marine stim is the most fucking broken skill in the game. The only way to fight off marines is with splash and if you don't have it in the necessary quantities it's gg, while the Terran can still micro his way around splash. I think they should nerf the marine + stim while buffing it against splash damage so it just becomes a much more stable unit (I can remember the days of frustration vs. Colossus) -medivacs are one of the least risky investments of the game. They give you map control (drop your enemy once and he's paranoid for the next 5 minutes), they heal your stuff, they allow for cliff play, they allow you taking island expansions. There's almost no instance where getting medivacs is a bad decision.
i never once stated T is easier or underpowered compared to zerg. please find where i said that. all i stated was what this other dude said that "stimmed marines are op; medvacs op" etc and argued against him. i agree that zerg is harder to play than terran.
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On October 28 2010 04:12 Firereaver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. Yeah. If only fruitdealer had read your post... Hindsight is always 20/20. Please don't talk lightly of Fruitdealer! (Good grief, I didn't know this is wat the SC2 Strat forum had on offer..) In case you didn't know, Grack and Fruit have very similar macro styles. That strat alone is going to give Grack nightmares, just w8 and see. P.S: Did you even see game2 ?
But he's right. If fruitdealer had positioned his overlords for drops in game 2 he wouldn't have had as much damage given to him if any at all.
In game 1 if he had scouted and saw that proxy 2nd rax he wouldn't have had that damage dealt to him like he did. Do realize he made 1-2 drones and 1 pair of zerglings so if he had scouted that, that would have been 6 lings against 3 marines when fake boxer pushed with them. Fruit I think was over confident as he must have watched fake boxer's RO64's terrible performance and thought it was an easy win for him is what it seems to me because normally he should have overlords at those positions for drops in G2 and what not.
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On October 28 2010 04:09 InfO wrote:
TooFresh, I'm wondering what you do in a Best of X series against Zerg? This build seems to be fine, but it seems to be sorta all in-ish as well. If the hellions dont do huge economic damage, you're behind because you just spent you 'army' doing nothing. Say, in there were roaches in position an the Zerg actaully had ovies positioned to scout the drop? What do you do against a zerg who has already played against this strategy, and knows it is coming? It seems to be a good ladder strategy, but a bad one to use more than once in a Best of X series.
Thanks,
InfO
actually you're right. or at least I agreed with you at one point. in tournaments (I recently played in the vancouver lan charity and finished in the ro8) I played FireZerg and used this strat vs him. I won, then assuming using it again wouldn't work, I lost the next 2 in a BO3. People watching me play said I should stick to this strat as it seems solid and I am good with it; so I did and never lost another zerg match after that (went to losers bracket).
one thing you're wrong about is the 3 hellion. this build is in NO way all-in at any point realistically. The only factor that seems all in is the insane investment into ravens --> you lose them and you're in bad shape. In fact, this build is the least "all-in" build I've seen terran come up with with mech being closely nearby. marine/tank is so risky with no room for marginal error that it seems more "all-in" to me than this build. with investment into tech, (+1 range/+2 armor for ex.), you can expo much much easier with less worry about zerg versatility raping your ability to extend your economy (dont believe me, watch almost any blizzcon/gsl/iem tvz and observer how hard it can be for a terran to expo a 2nd time -- boxer vs fruitdealer is a good ex. of this). Losing the 3 hellions (which you shouldnt be losing if you have a medvac nearby with decent micro) isnt even a big deal. if he spots it, no worries. I've actually played a few players more than once at high diamond and they msged me for tips afterwards how to beat the strat (as they lost to it more than once and remember I do this strat lol). The hellions are more or less a mineral sink+scout that reveals to me what starport build I should be proceding to... roaches (a significant amount at least) will prompt a ~4+ banshee rush. I got some replays where the zerg did spot my drops and even had 2-3 spine crawlers in his mineral line that owned my hellions and I still went on to win; but those games aren't as high level nor as ideal when it comes to my play, the opponents play and my execution of the strat. i only uploaded these 2 replays to show its viability.
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On October 28 2010 03:53 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 21:13 Alphasquad wrote:
T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
Those changes don't matter a lot? I can't even tell if you are serious or trolling. Looking at the change itself it is not a lot. But put it in game context where +1 range roach can fend off hellions easier and help Z take that 2nd base safely is a very HUGE change.
roaches killed hellions with 3 range and now with 4 range - the hellion harass seems to be outdated simply because everyone would go for roaches more range or not (ofc roaches are now better against everything on the ground but that doesnt mean they were bad before),
this way im saying the reason why zerg players beat terrans is because the terrans just used their strats over and over and zergs adapted to and now the terrans have do adapt but they didnt do yet even though terrans have the most variability
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Honestly it feels to me as if Terrans strengths have been nerfed into oblivion making terran a rather mediocre race at best. The issue with siege tanks for instance, well Blizzard removed size classifications making it more difficult to balance something like the siege tank.
I'm sure you all remember small units taking half damage from explosive attacks and large units taking full damage. Well it is essentially like this now with most large units considered armored however units like zealots whitch are medium and light armored are taking far to little damage. Protoss already has immortals to deal with sieged implacements Makign zealots tank proof seems a bit overkill forcing terran into MMM play with VERY few if any tanks whitch also means you dont have the vikings / ghost you need later.
God forbid you allow a toss to get collossi + templar its basically GG
ok Protoss aside the issues I am seeing in the TvZ matchup from a purely objective opinion is that zerg macro is the issue.
I have a replay in whitch I make a critical mistake and do not emply ghosts late to at least try and counter his infestors (only thing I havent really tried to beat infestors)
The glaring issue I saw this game was the zerg had about HALF the workers I had, (45 to my 70-80)
and was able to keep up with me in supply count and army size all game now the insult to injury was that he had about 1000-1200 minerals and an equal amount of gas in the bank all game while I kept my minerals under 500 with a bit of excess gas because I went with a very big marauder hellion ball with a few marines to deal with his mass roach ling I failed to see... an ultralisk cavern as I was focusing much of my scouting and harrassment on preventing his 3rd expansion whitch I kept him from getting until well after I had mine ( blistering sands gold expo)
while still spending all of my insane Income and basically out macroing this zerg in terms of skill I was still crushed by a handful of ultralisks a massive ball of roaches and some infestors.. all game his income is 400-500 less than mine in the income tab.
Now I do not claim to be pro and My rating is only 1470 or so as I play mostly custom melee 1v1s with 2000+ friends and rarely ladder
When I do ladder I win probably 60% of my games .. the 40%? Well thats the zerg games >.<
TvP is challenging and feels balanced as when our armies meet we both suffer roughly equivalent losses and both have about the same issues with replinishing and micro etc as long as our base count is fairly equal and we are both harrassing correctly etc
TvZ however is entirely different in that even with perfect micro ( i dont claim to have it all the time but occasionally I do) The zerg ALWAYS comes out ahead in that terran requires time to really create an army that consists of Many many unit types in order to attempt to counter a 3-4 unit type army that instantly replenishes because the zerg can essentially expand at will.
I dont feel as if the units are particularly imbalanced in stats or useage what I feel is that zerg econamy is way to strong and that roaches for instance are way to cheap.
After much analysis the way the 45 drone zerg kept up with me was the roaches. Those roaches at 2 food with 145 life 4 range 16 damage and insane burrow abilities for such a low cost is rather silly. roughly equivalent to burrowing regenerating marauders with no stim only their damage is superior in that they do a full 16 to any target whereas marauders do 10-20 based on armor value ( I believe) I know the common argument is range difference between marauders and roaches but lets be honest on creep does it matter? roaches have rockets in their asses and with proper ling micro the marauders end up running like scared children unless they have some hellions But I digress.
I feel as if the matchup would be ALOT more balanced if the economical advantages of zerg were less extreme, Pre patch the ability to harrass and try to keep the zerg econamy at reasonable levels was how you won. Now it is next to impossible to do so meaning that zerg gets a massive advantage compound this with the fact that zerg really doesnt even NEED that econamy to beat you and ends up with insane amounts of cash sitting idle while your struggling to squeeze everything you can out of your 2-3 bases and you have instant replenishment for zerg
I cannot really think of any way to balance it as of now but I feel that larvae injection has a great deal to do with it as zerg essentially just spreads hatcheries at expansions and larvae injects
In 15 replays I have watched to test this theory I see that terranon average around the 8 minute mark has spent roughly 1500 or so minerals on unit structures and anywhere from 400 to 700 gas on them as well ( including essential upgrades) where zerg has spent roughly 750... including queens in minerals 850 for ling speed upgrade and a varied amount of gas 100 for ling speed or 100 + 50 baneling nest cost)
Ok so all that extra money goes into drones with larvae inject Until the zerg gets wind of terran moving then he can dump into whatever counter he likes ( the ability to instantly counter compounded with economical advantage)
I feel zerg not having to make extra hatcheries for production really offsets the balance early to mid game.
to much droning that we can do essentially nothing about without some very lucky harrass
You all may disagree but I feel that queens should maybe require lair tech or somethign giving them the SWARM feel later but making early production require hatcheries and more balance between econamy and drones making a 3rd hatch is not to much different than 2 queens
and makes the zerg have to squeeze those units out and do it correctly rather than drone drone drone and instantly produce a sizeable army when he sees movement. Now I understand the arguments against this thoroughly but as we can no longer do any kind of real early aggression any longer and lets face it protoss is just hosed , I think it would put the races on equal footing coming into mid to late game making the battles for our expansions and such a bit more balanced.
then the cheapness of roaches and such would be alot less prevalent.
Hydras should be a little cheaper as their usefulness off creep is limited at best and they die to basically everything. ( gotta throw zerga bone to cut down on the tears) :D
I'm sure I'm going to hear a million posts as to why this is wrogn and im an idiot etc... but
I honestly feel the zerg is having to spend entirely to little on infrastructure and able to dump that cash into units and drones giving them the ability to take 5 bases to terrans 2 and virtually impossible to take 3rd force them to make units and grow economically like toss and terran and you have it fixed.
Otherwise buff Terran back to be able to handle mass units effectively again !
Terrans strength in bw was the ability to do alot with a little .. now it seems they cant do much with alot. They ramped up slow and had to fight with small armies and keep the fights small but that was their strength now it feels like every matchup is macro macro macro macro oh shit... banelings FML ... regardless thats enough from me, I felt it was well balanced pre patch but now they went to far. They shouldve buffed zerg OR nerfed terran. NOT both .. and see how it played out.. NOT both
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2FresH, I think your build looks solid, but the replays you uploaded seem to only show the effectiveness of blue flame hellion drops (and banshees in the second game), since the zerg seemed to get super turtly after those harasses. I can see with marauder/tank support it would decimate the early zerg ground army, which is good, but I'm still unwary about the speedling/baneling/muta combo, which you say this build shines against. Can you show a replay of that?
Also, you seem to get marine upgrades, especially stim, pretty late, despite having enough money to do so at any point. Is there a reason for this?
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On October 27 2010 21:13 Alphasquad wrote:
T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
Yeah they did. Before, T needed to harass the Z to win. And it wasn't all that difficult to do so. You could make hellions and try to harass, and they weren't completely useless against roaches because you could kite. You could make reapers and it would be viable almost all of the time... They could work against roaches at least in that you could stay alive. Additionally, Z was forced to be more cautious in going expo before spawning pool.
Now that the roach range has increased, if you make hellions and your harassment doesn't work, you've wasted ~500-700 minerals on hellions. They're useless if your opponent focuses on roaches (And most zergs do now). Same thing for reapers. Banshee harass is just plain easy to fend off. Now that there are no options for early harass, and Z gets up FE super early, the Z economy mid game becomes super strong.
Aside from that problem by itself, the roach range increase along with the economy buff assures that a large enough number of roaches needs to be countered by tank/marauder rather than thor marine. Unfortunately, this makes any sort of mutalisk harassment particularly viable.
This is the situation right now for Terrans. Maybe some sort of viable strategy will come out in the future, but this is how things are now.
Personally, I've been doing an early expand (although not 15CC... I just have a really strong feeling that that will fail to any zerg who knows how to react to it, which makes it cheesy IMO), along with a double hellion harass and banshee harass simultaneously. This has me at about a ~40% W/L ratio vs zerg... If the hellion harass works I just win, but there are certain things a zerg can do that are easy that just nullify this... the zergs who lose are the ones who don't know how to get 4 roaches and block ramp.. The banshee harass helps because I can occasionally snipe queens or get a couple drones, and after doing so I'm still fighting an uphill battle. If neither works... the zerg can just make stupid mistakes like lose a muta ball to a couple thor shots or attack my thors with banelings and still just push through for victory and it feels retarded losing to people who make mistakes like that or just don't care.
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the zerg can just make stupid mistakes like lose a muta ball to a couple thor shots or attack my thors with banelings and still just push through for victory and it feels retarded losing to people who make mistakes like that or just don't care.
*applaud* I salute you sir
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On October 28 2010 05:41 xSuperflyTnT wrote:Show nested quote +
the zerg can just make stupid mistakes like lose a muta ball to a couple thor shots or attack my thors with banelings and still just push through for victory and it feels retarded losing to people who make mistakes like that or just don't care.
*applaud* I salute you sir
Lol. Thanks.
I try really hard.
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On October 28 2010 03:25 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio
And just how do you suggest a T takes out banelings? It's not that simple, and the matchup is far more complicated than "LOL just focus down his banelings!!!"
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On October 28 2010 06:24 scojac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:25 Alphasquad wrote:On October 28 2010 03:17 Bluest wrote:
Stopping what Fauxer did is super easy for zerg. Fruit didn't scout and put himself in an awful position. Fauxer watched Fruit's replays a bizillion times and played him perfectly. Honestly that game had almost nothing to do with the TvZ matchup it was all about Fruit as an individual player. Fauxer found his playstyles faults and exploited them however Fruit's playstyle holes are not zergs play style holes. That attack would never even touch Idra for example or even many good but far lesser overall zergs than Fruit.
To conclude, the Fauxer v Fruit game demonstrates very little useful information concerning balance. Any player who plays the same most every game for the first 10 minutes who was super blind hard countered would die in such a way if he doesn't scout or adapt at all. and other zerg watch replays of other terrans to discover playstyles and weaknesses its just that terrans dont seem to adapt anymore and most arent aware of the key in this matchup which is taking out the banelings which are the only option to take down bio And just how do you suggest a T takes out banelings? It's not that simple, and the matchup is far more complicated than "LOL just focus down his banelings!!!"
nowhere i said its simple but as a matchup is like ping-pong and now the terrans are at the point to return properly unless the Z is really overpowered and there is no way but i dont think so
sure the matchup is far more complicated but everyone here acts like zerg would be sooo far ahead of terrans that it would allow heavy mistakes like loosing a muta ball which is certainly not true
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On October 28 2010 04:06 Shikyo wrote:
I really think that instead of tanks, the Terran players should be replacing them with Thors. Something like Thor-Banshee-Marine is incredibly strong that's really difficult to deal with.
Infestors hard-counter that composition. Fungal the marines, NP the thors, kill banshees with thors/queens/whatever.
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On October 28 2010 05:48 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 05:41 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
the zerg can just make stupid mistakes like lose a muta ball to a couple thor shots or attack my thors with banelings and still just push through for victory and it feels retarded losing to people who make mistakes like that or just don't care.
*applaud* I salute you sir Lol. Thanks. I try really hard.
the micro'ing goes in favor of the zerg. zergs can just hold off their muta ball and magix box while sending lings and banelings in.
pulling back and splitting marines is much harder to do, all while micro'ing banshees to attack banelings
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I thought that early bio was dumb against Zerg, but Boxer the second just freakin ran over fruit dealer with it. I'm blown away and so trying this.
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On October 27 2010 13:43 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Thor-based mech is terrible against mass roach since the change, and tank-heavy mech gets obliterated by +carapace lings and heavy muta compositions (slings sponging two tank shots = your tanks are worthless and are going to splash on your own tanks all the time). You basically need marines for anti-air if you spend a lot of gas on tanks, and you basically need CS and stim for them to be good. If you're investing that much in upgrades on a few marines, you might as well make more. expanding TvZ relies 100% on your opponent scouting late or reacting wrong.
that's why in a mech build you go for mass Thors/Tanks AND HELLIONS with flame to own as fast as possible those lings then your tanks will be free to 2 shot roaches.
You should take your third at around 11-12min. Now you have 5 factories and can add a mass marines to deal with mutas magic box. 17-18min you have 3-3 upgrade on your mech units so you still one shot lings/blings...
The only weakness of this build is zerg drop, but most of zerg don't use drop lol whereas in BW they were abusing of it oO
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Not only is zerg extremely dominant and should win 100% of the time if the game lasts longer than 12 minutes but they've actually made the game less fun to play for terrans. You have no way of stopping zerg's expansion or to apply any pressure whatsoever! All you can do is do a 2 base marine/tank push and hope for the best. Terran went from being a malleable race with many different options to an extremely rigid, boring and ineffective race.
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On October 28 2010 05:15 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 03:53 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 21:13 Alphasquad wrote:
T dominated Z for a long time, now T got nerfs for reapers and Z got +1 range for roaches - did those changes really matter a lot?i seriously think no
Bio was already outdated a long time ago because of creep+banelings but now i see it more and more on pro level - doesnt make sense to me; i remember T mech play ot be the hardest challenge to Z since...ever; also in game T players go for marines and tanks for the entire game no matter how many times it gets killed; i really dont understand the point of going for FE and then make such an army too - i always thought you go marine/tank with one base for an early push before the Z has muta or you expand to support mech and use superior tech
Those changes don't matter a lot? I can't even tell if you are serious or trolling. Looking at the change itself it is not a lot. But put it in game context where +1 range roach can fend off hellions easier and help Z take that 2nd base safely is a very HUGE change. roaches killed hellions with 3 range and now with 4 range - the hellion harass seems to be outdated simply because everyone would go for roaches more range or not (ofc roaches are now better against everything on the ground but that doesnt mean they were bad before), this way im saying the reason why zerg players beat terrans is because the terrans just used their strats over and over and zergs adapted to and now the terrans have do adapt but they didnt do yet even though terrans have the most variability
Hellions are really fast, i always have a reactored factory on mid/lategame just for blue hellions. You can move some of them around and kill queens/drones (4 to kill a queen). That way you are spreading his forces and hurting his eco all the time.
I know, some maps won't let you do that, but in most maps, after third expansion, it's relative easy to do it while you are pushing somewhere else.
With range 3, you could kite the roaches, with range 4 and the time the hellion takes to shoot, you can't kite them efficiently. But hey, i am still in love with them :p
Also, don't forget they are a great sink for minerals if you are going mech.
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Tank Marine composition feels really strong to me and has been the only way for me to transition into late game. To me, Thors are really the best as an initial muta defense because 2 or 3 will cover your entire base from a good number of mutas (repair and then bring others to help), ending zerg harass. I don't think their value is necessary from their dps but from their flexbility (can tank, be repaired, splash air, hit hard ground) I'll usually open with a 2 or 3 thor push with mm hellion, and switch over to tank/marine/medivac
Tank marine really does suck though below 4 or 5 tanks, but above that they seem like the most cost efficient counter to hydra/roach/infestor play as soo many units die as they are getting into range. microing the tanks is important too, i always shift attack the units near the center of the clumps.
also, +carapace doesn't own terran tanks. The terran will be upgrading their attack as well
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I honestly think fruit dealer lost because of jet lag, flying from korea to America is a big trip & i know i would never play 100 after something as big as blizzcon then a flight straight back.
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On October 28 2010 05:27 deeshoo wrote:
2FresH, I think your build looks solid, but the replays you uploaded seem to only show the effectiveness of blue flame hellion drops (and banshees in the second game), since the zerg seemed to get super turtly after those harasses. I can see with marauder/tank support it would decimate the early zerg ground army, which is good, but I'm still unwary about the speedling/baneling/muta combo, which you say this build shines against. Can you show a replay of that?
Also, you seem to get marine upgrades, especially stim, pretty late, despite having enough money to do so at any point. Is there a reason for this?
first, thanks for watching the replays. I do have a few replays of raven dominance against muta/ling/bling I will look once i get home. I was actually hoping to play a few decent zergs on ladder tonite/tmrw and upload those replays. (sadly, I didn't save all my replays)
i dont usually get stim because this kind of unit composition isnt meant to be a quick battle ender. as u know autoturrets last decades and therefore the whole purpose of marine/hellion (as mineral sinks) are to last as well. stim is great, dont get me wrong, but only a temporary dps boost at the expensve of health. with no medvacs, i dont see stim being that important. I do get it if the game goes later because the only hard counter to my build is hive ultras (I have replays of me raping broodlord/corruptors). If the zerg manages to pump ultras, I transition all my rax into techlab rax's and pump marauders and of course get stim (ideally before).
once you get used to this build, like I am now, it becomes natural to slow push with positino against zerg (as Blizz would have us seem thats how they want TvZ to roll out) where gaining ground, slowly, is still better than gaining no ground. to elaborate, auto turrets dont move. theyre virtually worse than a "slow-siege tank push" because siege tanks can still move once out of siege mode. I've done this strat countless times, if I rape the zergs expo with hellion/marine/raven (posible banshee) push, I do not simply send my units into his main because:
1. I probly dont have energy to produce more ATs in the main which would greatly expose my mineral investments
2. I'd rather expand and further take more map control (the left over ATs will sit in the zergs expo [or whereever you fought him, ideally his expo or main] for a long time and he will have to deal with them eventually.. since they last a LONG time)
i guess i didnt post any replays showing the powerful dominance my build has versus muta/bling/ling because I assumed most have seen, or can visualize in their mind, the power of auto turret,hsm,PDD vs muta/ling/bling. but either way ill definately upload a few more replays since people are finally taking my strat seriously :D (i posted it a few times in the past month, its been tweaked but never got attention).
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I think the problem is how godamn ridiculous zerg's late game is. Ultralisks just kill everything the terran can throw at them (don't say hurr durr banshees, oh look here comes a few mutalisks to kill my whole expensive ass fragile army). Whenever I play TvZ it's always with the mindset that I MUST end the game or do significant damage in the early game. Otherwise once infestors come out bio play is pointless and if you go immobile mech, zerg's late game kills it anyways. They can reproduce faster AND their unit is cost effective against everything. I just find the utralisk's splash to be retardedly hard to deal with and it's not like you can kite them with fungal growth/speedlings easily at their disposal. I think the matchup would be fine it zerg lategame didn't dominate terran's so hard. The balance changes were good for stopping terran from killing zerg in 10 minutes, now that early game is balanced let's balance out the ridiculousness of fungal growth/ultralisks in the mid/late game.
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i dont usually get stim because this kind of unit composition isnt meant to be a quick battle ender. as u know autoturrets last decades and therefore the whole purpose of marine/hellion (as mineral sinks) are to last as well. stim is great, dont get me wrong, but only a temporary dps boost at the expensve of health. with no medvacs, i dont see stim being that important. I do get it if the game goes later because the only hard counter to my build is hive ultras (I have replays of me raping broodlord/corruptors). If the zerg manages to pump ultras, I transition all my rax into techlab rax's and pump marauders and of course get stim (ideally before).
That's understandable. If you're worried about marine longevity then what about combat shields or armor upgrades?
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Tonite's matches will feature 3 TvZ matchups with all the Terrans being top class (Ensnare, ITR, Nada). It will be interesting to see what their builds are going to be. I'm predicting marine/tank because it's probably a little too late to change their builds mid-tournament. However, I'm hoping that they will show something different! These games will do much to forging the TvZ theory.
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On October 28 2010 10:18 deeshoo wrote:Show nested quote +
i dont usually get stim because this kind of unit composition isnt meant to be a quick battle ender. as u know autoturrets last decades and therefore the whole purpose of marine/hellion (as mineral sinks) are to last as well. stim is great, dont get me wrong, but only a temporary dps boost at the expensve of health. with no medvacs, i dont see stim being that important. I do get it if the game goes later because the only hard counter to my build is hive ultras (I have replays of me raping broodlord/corruptors). If the zerg manages to pump ultras, I transition all my rax into techlab rax's and pump marauders and of course get stim (ideally before).
That's understandable. If you're worried about marine longevity then what about combat shields or armor upgrades?
i get one tech lab for the sole purpose of combat shields and potentially getting stim just for future references. armor not so much so. id prefer +1 dmg on bio but usually dont bother unless i forecast the game going into late, which will require upgraded marauders.
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I really wish the Valkyrie would be back, then I don't have to spend anything in those slow fat ass Thors(they move so slow that even you win a battle Z can regen his army before my Thors arrive at his main). Since Z basically has free air dominance over T in late game, it's basically 2 bases vs X bases. If I take a 3rd and spread out my army Mutas will just divide and conquer.
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On October 28 2010 13:04 Azzur wrote:
Tonite's matches will feature 3 TvZ matchups with all the Terrans being top class (Ensnare, ITR, Nada). It will be interesting to see what their builds are going to be. I'm predicting marine/tank because it's probably a little too late to change their builds mid-tournament. However, I'm hoping that they will show something different! These games will do much to forging the TvZ theory.
Agreed, it's going to be a great GSL day. Since I'm playing Zerg, I do want the Zs to win... but I feel that these terrans can prove once and for all that Z isn't overpowered, so I also hope that they play well and show everyone how terrans need to play, hopefully in macro-games instead of doing all-in marine pushes.
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TvZ nowadays is a joke really. Whoever thought of that game breaking units of banellings should be ashamed of themselves. Give Terran the goliaths back so at least they can mass goliaths and go mech.
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Well i think Zerg is not OP, and the games today support that:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hopetorture shows us a really nice timing push on the weak point where zerg are about to get mutas, with a drop of blue hellions/marauderer + landed vikings. Great win
NaDa show us that T can out macro Z on large maps, with a insanely large mech build, into a good doom push for the kill when he felt the time was right. And then made a 2 base push to a about to get 4th base zerg, with sieges and a amazing micro on marine spreading (no medivacs), dealing with Infestor/Speedlings/Bannelings on fight that before it start look like zerg was going to win, and end up pretty much one sided for terran... And maybe not the biggest Zerg names on GSL, but i bet they are way much better than any zerg we could ever face on ladder.
Zerg is not OP! the game now is different... Terran need to adapt. Im not saying game is balanced, still need lot of work, but for real, is getting closer and closer on each step.
By the other hand Kyrix shows some awesome ultra agresive play, and shows it can work pretty well (he is now a Class S Player! )... And check could win thouse matches, he didnt because he didnt play very well... but wasnt so much of a "game balance" issue, as a better played issue.
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hummm doble post by mistake sry
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On October 28 2010 20:07 positron. wrote:
TvZ nowadays is a joke really. Whoever thought of that game breaking units of banellings should be ashamed of themselves. Give Terran the goliaths back so at least they can mass goliaths and go mech.
and what would zerg do without banelings - nothing would beat bio with medivac
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Almost all zergs have started to use burrowed banelings. They basically become as strong as lurkers. Not many terrans get a raven and I think that has changed the metagame a lot. What if in sc1 people wasn't ready for spider mines. It makes a big difference in map control and the speed at which t can attack. I think ravens will be used more and more, they are a really good caster that is underused today imo.
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Today's TvZ GSL games were quite action packed.
+ Show Spoiler [Ensnare vs Kyrix] +
Game 1: Convincing early bunker/marine pressure, and forces drones to be pulled. Even though it was fended off, I think it did reasonable damage and the Terran was ahead. This type of build seems to be quite successful (also see FakeBoxer vs FruitDealer, game 1).
Game 2: Zerg ninja expand sees them outmacro the Terran in the critical midgame/endgame battles. Lesson: Scout for those expands!
Game 3: I didn't understand Ensnare's play for his early poke. He knew the Zerg was one-basing and he did do reasonable damage (killed lings/overlords) with his early poke. He should've retreated and I believed he would've won as he would've fended the mutas off very easily. Since the zerg was 1-basing, Ensnare should have expected reasonable number of units? Even then, after taking his 2nd, his timing attack was almost successful and it was the drones that swung the battle.
+ Show Spoiler [ITR vs Check] +
Game 1: ITR > 6 pool.
Game 2: ITR gets around 6 vikings (probably suspected mutas) and kills overlords. Does this brilliant timing drop (and landed his vikings) to kill the Zerg natural. After that, he went for the kill (a drop) and came through. Although I believed he should've probably just played safe off 2-bases. Great drop to try against a 2-base muta build (esp in Scrap Station, we'll expect the Zerg's to pretty much play that way).
+ Show Spoiler [Nada vs Leenok] +
Game 1: Don't piss off the Genius Terran with a 6-pool and force him to take off his jacket. It'll cost you in games 2 and 3.
Game 2: Cross positions on Shakuras Temple (a large map). Goes thor/helion/marine vs muta/bling/ling. So happy to witness this as I believe this build is strongest against the muta/bling/ling. Watch for awesome macro and a Terran taking a third base.
Game 3: Marine/tank build for a 2-base timing attack. Once again, we see that single banshee. That single banshee seems to be very popular in TvZ play. It seems the pros favour marine/tank in smaller maps.
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On October 29 2010 03:32 Azzur wrote:Today's TvZ GSL games were quite action packed. + Show Spoiler [Ensnare vs Kyrix] +
Game 1: Convincing early bunker/marine pressure, and forces drones to be pulled. Even though it was fended off, I think it did reasonable damage and the Terran was ahead. This type of build seems to be quite successful (also see FakeBoxer vs FruitDealer, game 1).
Game 2: Zerg ninja expand sees them outmacro the Terran in the critical midgame/endgame battles. Lesson: Scout for those expands!
Game 3: I didn't understand Ensnare's play for his early poke. He knew the Zerg was one-basing and he did do reasonable damage (killed lings/overlords) with his early poke. He should've retreated and I believed he would've won as he would've fended the mutas off very easily. Since the zerg was 1-basing, Ensnare should have expected reasonable number of units? Even then, after taking his 2nd, his timing attack was almost successful and it was the drones that swung the battle.
Game 1: ITR > 6 pool.
Game 2: ITR gets around 6 vikings (probably suspected mutas) and kills overlords. Does this brilliant timing drop (and landed his vikings) to kill the Zerg natural. After that, he went for the kill (a drop) and came through. Although I believed he should've probably just played safe off 2-bases. Great drop to try against a 2-base muta build (esp in Scrap Station, we'll expect the Zerg's to pretty much play that way).
Game 1: Don't piss off the Genius Terran with a 6-pool and force him to take off his jacket. It'll cost you in games 2 and 3.
Game 2: Cross positions on Shakuras Temple (a large map). Goes thor/helion/marine vs muta/bling/ling. So happy to witness this as I believe this build is strongest against the muta/bling/ling. Watch for awesome macro and a Terran taking a third base.
Game 3: Marine/tank build for a 2-base timing attack. Once again, we see that single banshee. That single banshee seems to be very popular in TvZ play. It seems the pros favour marine/tank in smaller maps.
As manny stated before, wait untill a decent terran player face thouse "imba-OP" zergs, then start to get conclussion... Of course patch helped zerg a lot, of course that mediocre terran that use to do "ok" vs zerg, will be crushed badly after patch... But, when the big names come along, the best player won (and not the one with the "OP Race"), the only exception could be Kyrix, but i think he is underrated, he probe to be really really good (need a lot of work on him micro tho), so overall i think, the patch did a good job balancing the game, wich isnt over yet, there is a lot of work still needed.
For example, i like that terran cant make early reapers crush to win (or almost) the game, but i hate that there is a unit on the game thats now is only good for make a scout, and only on some matches... I think it need to be re-worked so it still usefull on mid/late game.
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On October 28 2010 22:32 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:07 positron. wrote:
TvZ nowadays is a joke really. Whoever thought of that game breaking units of banellings should be ashamed of themselves. Give Terran the goliaths back so at least they can mass goliaths and go mech. and what would zerg do without banelings - nothing would beat bio with medivac
The way things are blings need to be in the game to stop bio but there is something that needs to be done about that unit or something needs to be done to make mech more viable for Terran like goliaths addition for example (not realistic at this point just saying). I love game 2 in Nada series but you can't expect many people to be on his level in macro. Plus that map has a pretty close third and there was no gas steal so he could put down those two factories after the 1st rax. He would have had a hard time doing that build on metalopolis for example.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nada's game 3 win told us nothing new. Just a good attack with tanks and marines. People would fail more often that not doing that marine split while the Z only need to right click blings to the marines. I had no idea why that 6 pooler did not get off any fungal growth he threw his infestors out to die. He had a real chance of holding.
Game 1 of ITR is just good defending. Game 2 is a clever unit combo and good timing on the attack. I don't think this would be a standard.
Kyris lost quite a few mutas in both of his wins but won anyway due to blings. Game 1 Kyrix used a weird build and tech way too late so he lost and when he settled down and played like normal he took out Ensnare. Both of them are about equal in skills.
None of Terran's win is macro game other than game 2 of Nada series. I would think anybody with an incentive to invent strategy it would be these koreans progamers but so far I am disappointed. I hope somebody come up with strategy that requires no gimmicky harass, early timing push to win and is reproducible at the lower level .
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Agreed^
For the time being it looks like these terrans in the GSL are just entirely avoiding the macro game and going for quick game enders. Game 2 for Nada made the macro strategy work due to the close third and map length. I would however like to see how it would've held up against Kyrix going 2 base all-in. It is really difficult for the terran to scout whether or not something like this is occurring.
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Id be intrested to know the TvZ score excluding games where the terran opens hidden racks/bunker rush/ramp block..
i really can't see any kind of build like that becoming standard...
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well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it
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On October 29 2010 10:49 mati wrote:
well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it
Yea right click bling to the marines certainly requires more micro than A-click or spreading marines before hand.
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On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do.
ty for those stats
sounds about right. glad im not too behind
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I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
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On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
How do you think Zerg got that creep everywhere and their huge armies? That's right... very high APM. Maybe a large problem with the ZvT matchup is the large difference in required APM at any time when there is not a battle going on? Comparing APM required in-battle (which depends on soooo many different things) is no way to judge balance.
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On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
Zerg requires much higher average APM to play effectively than terran. Also saying all a zerg has to do is 1A and cast a few spells is rather ignorant, try playing zerg before throwing around these assumptions.
When a zerg engages, positioning is everything. If you 1a as zerg in the majority of your fights I doubt you will make it past 1k diamond. Terran does take more army micro in my opinion, but nowhere near as much as you like to think. A terran player does not have to 'plan' his engagements to anything like the extent a zerg player does.
Also, about the APM comment. Terrans can get away with <60 average APM and be 1600+ diamond. A zerg would be lucky to make it out of platinum with this kind of APM.
Seeing a terran try to argue that their race is harder to play is laughable.
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On October 29 2010 11:15 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 10:49 mati wrote:
well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it Yea right click bling to the marines certainly requires more micro than A-click or spreading marines before hand.
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM)
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On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM)
I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument.
Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
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On October 29 2010 17:30 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules? Zerg requires much higher average APM to play effectively than terran. Also saying all a zerg has to do is 1A and cast a few spells is rather ignorant, try playing zerg before throwing around these assumptions. When a zerg engages, positioning is everything. If you 1a as zerg in the majority of your fights I doubt you will make it past 1k diamond. Terran does take more army micro in my opinion, but nowhere near as much as you like to think. A terran player does not have to 'plan' his engagements to anything like the extent a zerg player does. Also, about the APM comment. Terrans can get away with <60 average APM and be 1600+ diamond. A zerg would be lucky to make it out of platinum with this kind of APM. Seeing a terran try to argue that their race is harder to play is laughable.
I agree the Zerg requires higher APM to play but saying Terran don't need to plan engagement is really dumb. Both sides need position. Terran don't where to siege the tanks it is gonna end up really bad. What would you call Nada's siege position and spreading of marines before the battle is if not planning?
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On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army...
Apparantly just mass roaches destroy Mech nowaydays since +1 range.. -.-
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On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
You say it like if the game goes on longer ITR or NaDa would've lost. I'm not sure if that's true. Those games show that T can kill Z with a well executed timing attack, that's all.
What makes you think T can't compete in a macro game?
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Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
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On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine :
1)EB Zerg FE delay success.
2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers.
3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen.
While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140.
In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
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On October 30 2010 10:42 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine : 1)EB Zerg FE delay success. 2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers. 3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen. While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140. In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
Morrow switched and I died a little bit inside. the days of skill in sc are over it seems as every game is Make collosi GG or make ultralisk GG and terran has... uum.... what???
Early cheese that more often that not fails..... and we cant keep up with macro vs them...
Oh well I just get upset when I lose to a zerg who has horrible unit control horrible apm horrible desision making and can just roll me because he can take however many bases he wants to.
And I hate losing to toss who just mass collosi in their base and I make one mistake in micro or get caught out of PERFECT position We cannot ALL be QXC and NADA and BOXER and its sad when I see QXC saying he doesnt know how to deal with collosi either.
dont switch man Take pride that your part of the only race that requires thought in matchups and not just blind tech rushing to your "win button" unit. When they do balance it you will dominate .
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On October 30 2010 06:37 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about. You say it like if the game goes on longer ITR or NaDa would've lost. I'm not sure if that's true. Those games show that T can kill Z with a well executed timing attack, that's all. What makes you think T can't compete in a macro game?
Of course nobody is stupid enough to say that it is impossible for T to win a macro game because it is still early to say that. However have you seen any Terran beat Zerg in a macro game (2+ bases for T and 3+ bases for Z)? I haven't seen that in the GSL. Game 2 of Nada is amazing but I don't think many people can compete with Nada in macro. That game was extremely close though. Leenock finally breached the third base and Nada abandoned it to go for a doom attack. Other than that game 2 you will see all the games end early with Terran pushing before mutas ling bling reach a big number. I am waiting to see a Terran show me the way to play TvZ macro but have not seen it.
Btw I saw Tarson took down some Zerg in the Craftcup using the exact same strat ITR used on scrap station. Very entertaining :D. He did it twice I think. I guess from now on every TvZ on scrap station will be an auto win for Tarson.
Some guy post above me said that he split up bling to hit marines when marines split. Has anyone seen that in pro play? Please correct me if I am wrong but I think even pro players just shift click the bling and control his other units instead.
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On October 30 2010 10:42 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine : 1)EB Zerg FE delay success. 2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers. 3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen. While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140. In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
Uhm you use a similar build to what i use and say you can't win ? 
I agree if the harass fails, the push will also fail. So you do an EB as well, i was working on changing my early harass which is still 4 helions, i realize i need a earlier harass, and building an EB doesn't do that much. More micro intensive bunker rushes might work better. Vote out long maps like scrap station and it should work. I get matched vs 1500 zergs so not at 1900 yet, but the helion into banshee harass generally does force the zerg to make units and spine crawlers while killing a few lings/drones/queens in the process. Also with this build you can switch from thor/marine/banshee to thor/marauder/banshee or tank/marine/raven without having to build anything. Or do like nada and push at 3 bases while building a 4th :D
GSL showed us some pretty good TvZ's, i agree it still needs some work balance-wise because a good zerg will fend off all harass without overreacting, but i saw some really fast expand from Foxer for example, while still being able to pressure early, that delays the zerg macro advantage.
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"that delays the zerg macro advantage"
there shouldnt be such a clear cut ridiculous advantage thats the problem.
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imba whining stops now thanks
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Tonite's FakeBoxer vs Kyrix match is especially interesting for me for this matchup. So far, I've found that the Terran successes against Zerg have come from some timing based play. When the Terran tries to macro (especially when using marine/tank), they have been less successful. I've found that FakeBoxer is an especially good proponent of this timing based play. Also, his Zerg FE expo denial technique has been really top-notch as well.
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On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
actually i played terran till get diamond, then switch for zerg (before patch 1.1.0) because i feel it suit better for my style, so i did, and i deal with it (marines n banneling havent changed on any of the lastest patches)... And whats the point of a thread called "TvZ Matches in GSL" where i cant cite GSL matches? what should i refer then? to just random replays on youtube?
Anyway... Did you watch today games between Fake Boxer n kyrixzenith? I couldnt be more clear than that... Except for the banshee rush on game 4, you got there 4 games of pure banneling plays.. And Terran won in the end.... oh wait, i bet i cant cite that one neither... i guess we can only make argument on matches were Terran loose, so you wont feel like you are doing anything wrong when you loose vs zergs...
GSL Season 2 top 4: 3 Terran 1 Zerg
and looking the brackets, chances are very good for a TvT final also...
Yes i can see how GSL probes that zerg is imba, and terran got no chance after patch.
Terran CAN deal with bannelings, they got many options... Zerg cant macro that hard if you apply some presion, and off course there are difference between races, off course, that zerg can out macro if you give them the chance, but thats kinda the point of the game... but at the same time they got drawbacks, like being unnable to turtle like Terran and protoss (but specially terran) can... That kind of the fun part of the game, where there are 3 races that are very different... Zerg being abble to do some stuff that P and T cant, is not a reason to call it imba, each one of the three got their pros n cons, and when it come to the matches results, it end up pretty even... Both GSL 1 and GSL 2, got majority of Terran players in overall the torunament, and in the top 8/4... So for real, where is this so called "disvantage" terran need to deal with?
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Fauxer won half the baneling heavy games (2/4). What's weird is that he used primarily marines (which are hard countered by banelings) and medivacs (and sick micro) to do it... It says something when the best players in the world are sticking with the same unit composition for most the game... marines are too strong and/or terran lategame options suck.
Also, Zenith played a very aggressive style which doesn't showcase the power of zerg macro at all. He almost always on equal bases with Fauxer.
The way to "deal with banelings" is to spread your units out and rebuild them as fast as you can. Even with perfect micro you're taking heavy losses every time. At least you're trading minerals for gas... Maybe that's the key
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On November 01 2010 23:42 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about. actually i played terran till get diamond, then switch for zerg (before patch 1.1.0) because i feel it suit better for my style, so i did, and i deal with it (marines n banneling havent changed on any of the lastest patches)... And whats the point of a thread called "TvZ Matches in GSL" where i cant cite GSL matches? what should i refer then? to just random replays on youtube? Anyway... Did you watch today games between Fake Boxer n kyrixzenith? I couldnt be more clear than that... Except for the banshee rush on game 4, you got there 4 games of pure banneling plays.. And Terran won in the end.... oh wait, i bet i cant cite that one neither... i guess we can only make argument on matches were Terran loose, so you wont feel like you are doing anything wrong when you loose vs zergs... GSL Season 2 top 4: 3 Terran 1 Zerg and looking the brackets, chances are very good for a TvT final also... Yes i can see how GSL probes that zerg is imba, and terran got no chance after patch. Terran CAN deal with bannelings, they got many options... Zerg cant macro that hard if you apply some presion, and off course there are difference between races, off course, that zerg can out macro if you give them the chance, but thats kinda the point of the game... but at the same time they got drawbacks, like being unnable to turtle like Terran and protoss (but specially terran) can... That kind of the fun part of the game, where there are 3 races that are very different... Zerg being abble to do some stuff that P and T cant, is not a reason to call it imba, each one of the three got their pros n cons, and when it come to the matches results, it end up pretty even... Both GSL 1 and GSL 2, got majority of Terran players in overall the torunament, and in the top 8/4... So for real, where is this so called "disvantage" terran need to deal with?
Don't cite them because they are not proof of the game being balanced like you make them out to be. Winning by timing pushes is not proof of game balance. You seem to keep using those wins as basis for your argument.
Yea I watched the game and that level of micro is out of reach for like 90% of the players. Whereas being a mediocre player that I am I can still kill a better Terran by baneling like Kyrix. MVP tried to do that pure marines + tanks and he went down. If you used those wins of Fauxer to say that the game is balanced then how about I used the other many games that T lost due to bling in GSL? You would then say that well those Terrans don't know how to play against bling then I can proceed to say that Kyrix didn't use bling effectively that is why he lost. You see how pointless this is? You have to agree on one thing that using bling is easier than splitting marines for like 95% of the players. That is where I think there might be imbalance.
Match results are generally not used to balance game. Please read David Kim interview in Blizzcon. They are much more interested in the way the the games play out than the results. If you only look at the results to balance game I guess Protoss should be getting buffs since they haven't won anything big in a while except Blizzcon.
Anyway, stay on topic though. I guess after this crazy series of TvZ I need to make custom maps to practice marines split. I saw that qxc made some micro map but they don't really have marines splitting practice. Has anybody heard of any custom maps that help with this? Thanks a lot.
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Yea I watched the game and that level of micro is out of reach for like 90% of the players. Whereas being a mediocre player that I am I can still kill a better Terran by baneling like Kyrix.
And you are being really generous for a 10% of players...
I go with the good old hellions/thor/rine and some raven,at my skill level it works pretty good. But i am not gonna lie myself, i lack the skill to achieve that Marine, medvac, tank play where a bad move would cost you the game.
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Foxer's micro is absolutely sick while the zerg just had to A-move his ling/blings. The top 10% of diamond 2400+ terran players can't do that. I've actually never seen a single terran micro marines as well as him.
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I think the GSL matches have shown just how balanced the TvZ matchup is, not vice versa. You talk about Terran walking on a tightrope to win atm, but zergs have always and will always have to walk that same tightrope.
From what I've seen of the GSL matches, I'd say the crucial thing to exploit for T in TvZ is early marine pushes, which allow you to get an expo up, and abuse the period of time when the zerg has slowlings. I'm not a T myself, but that's what it looks like. Another thing I noticed from one of NaDa's games, and which I'm not sure if Terrans fully appreciate, is the effectiveness of Thors in stopping muta harass - they just completely shut it down, since the splash damage stops mutas from being in a clump. Even just one thor at each base makes a huge difference.
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This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thor drops are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
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I'm going to head to work on my marine splitting micro, but I can't say I'm too excited at the prospect ot eventually achieving near-foxer levels of marine micro and as a result being able to break even against a-moved banelings.
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On November 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote:
Foxer's micro is absolutely sick while the zerg just had to A-move his ling/blings. The top 10% of diamond 2400+ terran players can't do that. I've actually never seen a single terran micro marines as well as him.
Because you can't with bnet lag.
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On November 02 2010 06:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote:
Foxer's micro is absolutely sick while the zerg just had to A-move his ling/blings. The top 10% of diamond 2400+ terran players can't do that. I've actually never seen a single terran micro marines as well as him. Because you can't with bnet lag.
...But yet he could.
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On November 02 2010 06:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote:
Foxer's micro is absolutely sick while the zerg just had to A-move his ling/blings. The top 10% of diamond 2400+ terran players can't do that. I've actually never seen a single terran micro marines as well as him. Because you can't with bnet lag.
GSL is being played on bnet b/c there is no lan... right?
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On November 02 2010 06:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 06:10 link0 wrote:
Foxer's micro is absolutely sick while the zerg just had to A-move his ling/blings. The top 10% of diamond 2400+ terran players can't do that. I've actually never seen a single terran micro marines as well as him. Because you can't with bnet lag.
how did Foxer do it then?
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Don't GSL comps run the special Lan enabled client?
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On November 02 2010 06:37 KaiserGL wrote:
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing and the hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe
with zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thor drops are becoming more and more useless because of the constant nerfs to terran, and soon thor size will likely be decreased even further so that fewer scvs can repair it at the same time. I guess this was necessary because
its not fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit that required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the
helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks
in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by
infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support
tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
ive always thought zerg was OP since the start, its inherent and deep in the game due to lava injection.
it was just at the beginning, terran had a solid way to harass the zerg into producing units to defend, and thus decreasing their drone count and so the terran wont be far out macroed in the mid game-> late game
as a terran player, i think the reaper nerf was necessary, however, the rax after supply was completely unecessary, and basically gives the zerg a free 14 hatch, and i do agree, roaches are so cost effective, its just mind blowing, but thankfully siege tanks can still do nicely against them, granted that the terran doesnt over extend and make micro mistakes.
what i dont like about the reaper nerf was that it competely takes the unit out of the game, now its just a scout unit, what i think blizzard should've done was increase production time of reapers from 45 -> 55 seconds...
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On November 02 2010 06:37 KaiserGL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thor drops are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
From the formatting to the actual content, this is probably the worst post I've read on these forums.
You can't take each thing and compare it to your race's equivalent. ZERG CAN MAKE ALL THEIR UNITS FROM THEIR HATCHERIES SO IMBALANCED BOOHOOO!! Jesus...
Terran have been buffed EVERY SINGLE patch except the last one, and Zerg/Protoss nerfed EVERY SINGLE patch, and suddenly you're acting like Terran have been shafted right from the start. I really, really hate you.
(And you're seriously complaining about mules?)
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When I first looked at the game and tested all of the races, I thought zerg was the best as well. I even had planned on trying them out after i warmed back up with terran(played them in sc1 for 6 years). The recent changes have WAY overcompensated in response to the mass zerg whining. Now that zerg are blatantly superior to other races, nobody is complaining anymore and terrans/tosses are struggling more and more against players they completely outplay. I was going to cry if foxer lost to zerg imbalance when he played as well as he did. The only reason he won is because of extremely clutch play which would probably not have come from any other terran at that tournament. Why are banelings so inexpensive when they are basically instant nukes? 1 ghost and 1 nuke would probably cost more than the baneling equivalent and there is no strategy involved at all in using banelings. Just hurl your balls over your shoulder and charge into the fire.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 02 2010 07:17 MrLonely wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 06:37 KaiserGL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thors are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
From the formatting to the actual content, this is probably the worst post I've read on these forums. You can't take each thing and compare it to your race's equivalent. ZERG CAN MAKE ALL THEIR UNITS FROM THEIR HATCHERIES SO IMBALANCED BOOHOOO!! Jesus... Terran have been buffed EVERY SINGLE patch except the last one, and Zerg/Protoss nerfed EVERY SINGLE patch, and suddenly you're acting like Terran have been shafted right from the start. I really, really hate you. (And you're seriously complaining about mules?)
Lol you are just another typical zerg player. Terran have not received buffs every patch LMFAO, they get nerfed every single time. The things I said were no worse than any generic zerg complaint about terran a couple of months ago. Thanks for the completely unconstructive hate reply btw, You really made an impression.
I never cared about zerg being able to make everything from hatch, thats how they have always been. I was simply pointing that detail out because a lot of people like you dont even appreciate the true strengths of zerg.
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On November 02 2010 07:19 KaiserGL wrote:
When I first looked at the game and tested all of the races, I thought zerg was the best as well. I even had planned on trying them out after i warmed back up with terran(played them in sc1 for 6 years). The recent changes have WAY overcompensated in response to the mass zerg whining. Now that zerg are blatantly superior to other races, nobody is complaining anymore and terrans/tosses are struggling more and more against players they completely outplay. I was going to cry if foxer lost to zerg imbalance when he played as well as he did. The only reason he won is because of extremely clutch play which would probably not have come from any other terran at that tournament. Why are banelings so inexpensive when they are basically instant nukes? 1 ghost and 1 nuke would probably cost more than the baneling equivalent and there is no strategy involved at all in using banelings. Just hurl your balls over your shoulder and charge into the fire.
even as a terran player i gotta say come on, quit crying plz. yes, foxer outplayed kyrix in both game 1 and 5, but the reason he had to work so incredibly hard for the game 1 win was not tvz imba but his stubborness and refusal to add other units to his arsenal. some marauders mixed in would have helped sooooo much with banelings and not taken away significantly from his dps. or get more tanks, like.... have 3 attack waves with only marines, then one with marines plus the 6 tanks u have stockpiled in the meantime. or something like that....
and although he showed very strong play, his loss in game 3 to the exact same strategy that had beaten him just minutes before in game 2 was just an epic fail for a player of his caliber.
and the final game, although very high-class and actionpacked and epic and great, was full of mistakes from both players. they both ran failed attack after failed attack. in the long run, this overaggression cost the zerg more than the terran because of larva mechanics. game 5 of foxer vs kyrix clearly showed the unbreakable upper limit to zerg aggression. this level of aggression or even more of it is not feasible for zerg players, because of larva mechanics.
so albeit powerful, zergs larva mechanics still limit them somewhat in terms of playstyle. at the same time, both game 1 and 5 of that series demonstrated that constant aggression from the T can negate this macro advantage.
tbh i think tvz will be the most balanced matchup in sc2 in some weeks.
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^ Kinda agree. Here's the way I see it:
Zerg in the early game has to play as hard as Terran does late game in TvZ Just to SURVIVE. If it gets to late game, Terran has to play as hard as Zerg does just to survive. The problem is before the recent patch, Zerg's were so much more used to the disadvantage and have been playing an uneven matchup for a lot longer, so they are much more accustomed to dealing with the abuse already, whereas Terran's haven't had enough practice dealing with a rather unhindered late game Z macro-based play.
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On November 02 2010 07:31 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 07:19 KaiserGL wrote:
When I first looked at the game and tested all of the races, I thought zerg was the best as well. I even had planned on trying them out after i warmed back up with terran(played them in sc1 for 6 years). The recent changes have WAY overcompensated in response to the mass zerg whining. Now that zerg are blatantly superior to other races, nobody is complaining anymore and terrans/tosses are struggling more and more against players they completely outplay. I was going to cry if foxer lost to zerg imbalance when he played as well as he did. The only reason he won is because of extremely clutch play which would probably not have come from any other terran at that tournament. Why are banelings so inexpensive when they are basically instant nukes? 1 ghost and 1 nuke would probably cost more than the baneling equivalent and there is no strategy involved at all in using banelings. Just hurl your balls over your shoulder and charge into the fire. even as a terran player i gotta say come on, quit crying plz. yes, foxer outplayed kyrix in both game 1 and 5, but the reason he had to work so incredibly hard for the game 1 win was not tvz imba but his stubborness and refusal to add other units to his arsenal. some marauders mixed in would have helped sooooo much with banelings and not taken away significantly from his dps. or get more tanks, like.... have 3 attack waves with only marines, then one with marines plus the 6 tanks u have stockpiled in the meantime. or something like that.... and although he showed very strong play, his loss in game 3 to the exact same strategy that had beaten him just minutes before in game 2 was just an epic fail for a player of his caliber. and the final game, although very high-class and actionpacked and epic and great, was full of mistakes from both players. they both ran failed attack after failed attack. in the long run, this overaggression cost the zerg more than the terran because of larva mechanics. game 5 of foxer vs kyrix clearly showed the unbreakable upper limit to zerg aggression. this level of aggression or even more of it is not feasible for zerg players, because of larva mechanics. so albeit powerful, zergs larva mechanics still limit them somewhat in terms of playstyle. at the same time, both game 1 and 5 of that series demonstrated that constant aggression from the T can negate this macro advantage. tbh i think tvz will be the most balanced matchup in sc2 in some weeks.
Ill give you that, foxer did make some poor decisions in his overall strategy. But on huge maps I really don't know what else he could have done. He may have made some marauders but then every time banelings blew up he'd be losing 3x the resources so I think it was pretty smart to opt for medivacs instead. I'm not only basing my opinions off of that one match, it's something I've been seeing everywhere.
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On November 02 2010 07:36 DreXxiN wrote:
^ Kinda agree. Here's the way I see it:
Zerg in the early game has to play as hard as Terran does late game in TvZ Just to SURVIVE. If it gets to late game, Terran has to play as hard as Zerg does just to survive. The problem is before the recent patch, Zerg's were so much more used to the disadvantage and have been playing an uneven matchup for a lot longer, so they are much more accustomed to dealing with the abuse already, whereas Terran's haven't had enough practice dealing with a rather unhindered late game Z macro-based play.
BULLSHIT Zergs had to fight in the earlygame before the patch but now they are free to do whatever they want (aka hatch before pool). Yes Zergs played at a disadvantage and now they are just better than all Ts and Ps out there and FD isn't a human he is an alien, that why he showed 50APM Zergs how to win. Its just retard to say "watch FoxeR", I mean it's like saying "see you just need double the skill to have an even game against a zerg that has half your skill".
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On November 02 2010 07:38 KaiserGL wrote:
He may have made some marauders but then every time banelings blew up he'd be losing 3x the resources so I think it was pretty smart to opt for medivacs instead.
uhm, what? banes vs marauders isnt nearly as costefficient as banes vs marines. u need 2 banes for marines and something like 6 or so for marauders, while marauders only cost twice as much as marines. (in this build, minerals are the scarcer resource!)
having marauders and marines in different control groups also means that u can easily retreat with the marines and let the marauders stay in front to tank baneling hits. if he a-moves his banes into your army, its pretty much gg. so even if adding marauders wouldnt add too much to the strength of ur army, they would at least force the zerg to micro as hard as the terran player.
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I don't know what is worse. Self-righteous terrans complaining about self-righteous zergs or the other way around. Yes there were problems with zerg early game and Blizzard fixed it. Yes there are problems with terran late game but that was pretty much masked by the previous problem for a long time since terrans usually fatally crippled or just outright killed zergs in the first 10 minutes. I am sure Blizzard will do something about that as well. In the meantime, could we please just let go of these delusional claims that "all race x players are inferior, when they win it's imbalance, when I win it's superior skill"? It makes me feel ashamed to play my race and reluctant to open any thread on TL.
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On November 02 2010 05:42 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 23:42 mati wrote:On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about. actually i played terran till get diamond, then switch for zerg (before patch 1.1.0) because i feel it suit better for my style, so i did, and i deal with it (marines n banneling havent changed on any of the lastest patches)... And whats the point of a thread called "TvZ Matches in GSL" where i cant cite GSL matches? what should i refer then? to just random replays on youtube? Anyway... Did you watch today games between Fake Boxer n kyrixzenith? I couldnt be more clear than that... Except for the banshee rush on game 4, you got there 4 games of pure banneling plays.. And Terran won in the end.... oh wait, i bet i cant cite that one neither... i guess we can only make argument on matches were Terran loose, so you wont feel like you are doing anything wrong when you loose vs zergs... GSL Season 2 top 4: 3 Terran 1 Zerg and looking the brackets, chances are very good for a TvT final also... Yes i can see how GSL probes that zerg is imba, and terran got no chance after patch. Terran CAN deal with bannelings, they got many options... Zerg cant macro that hard if you apply some presion, and off course there are difference between races, off course, that zerg can out macro if you give them the chance, but thats kinda the point of the game... but at the same time they got drawbacks, like being unnable to turtle like Terran and protoss (but specially terran) can... That kind of the fun part of the game, where there are 3 races that are very different... Zerg being abble to do some stuff that P and T cant, is not a reason to call it imba, each one of the three got their pros n cons, and when it come to the matches results, it end up pretty even... Both GSL 1 and GSL 2, got majority of Terran players in overall the torunament, and in the top 8/4... So for real, where is this so called "disvantage" terran need to deal with? Don't cite them because they are not proof of the game being balanced like you make them out to be. Winning by timing pushes is not proof of game balance. You seem to keep using those wins as basis for your argument. Yea I watched the game and that level of micro is out of reach for like 90% of the players. Whereas being a mediocre player that I am I can still kill a better Terran by baneling like Kyrix. MVP tried to do that pure marines + tanks and he went down. If you used those wins of Fauxer to say that the game is balanced then how about I used the other many games that T lost due to bling in GSL? You would then say that well those Terrans don't know how to play against bling then I can proceed to say that Kyrix didn't use bling effectively that is why he lost. You see how pointless this is? You have to agree on one thing that using bling is easier than splitting marines for like 95% of the players. That is where I think there might be imbalance. Match results are generally not used to balance game. Please read David Kim interview in Blizzcon. They are much more interested in the way the the games play out than the results. If you only look at the results to balance game I guess Protoss should be getting buffs since they haven't won anything big in a while except Blizzcon. Anyway, stay on topic though. I guess after this crazy series of TvZ I need to make custom maps to practice marines split. I saw that qxc made some micro map but they don't really have marines splitting practice. Has anybody heard of any custom maps that help with this? Thanks a lot.
The topic name is "TvZ matches in the GSL". i do belive im quite into it when i refer to the game and cite them, but well... guess i cant cite anything no more. The whole point seems to be that you cannot deal with baneling with your current micro/BO/strats, and you find that come whining to the forum is way easier than actually try to do something about it....
The game is like it is... you can either take it or leave it, when i had to deal with a early reaper harras (pre patch), i didnt come to the forum to cry about it (i come to seek help, and ask how other zerg where dealing with it... FD games helped A LOT!), i keep practicing on bnet until i manage to do "ok" agaisnt it... my advice to you sir, is to do the same.... unless you find up that posting is more fun than actually playing the game, in wich case, i can give you many more reason to argue about 
i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games
(sry for my crappy english)
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On November 02 2010 08:20 mati wrote:i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games (sry for my crappy english)
Is that hard to understand he is not speaking about OP/UP. You are speaking about foxer vs kyrix like something doable for people which are not top notch just because their opponents aren't.
Baneling micro is not really hard, spread rines, re-stimming, focus fire with tanks banelings while you are doing is not something doable for anyone who is not already a topnotch player.
So yeah, T can beat Z with massive skills. This post is about people whose TvZ is struggling and try to find a new way to play that matchup.
It's not diamond T can beat diamond Z using the same strat, because most people (and by most, i mean.... everybody and their mother) can't micro macro that way (and you need to micro that way to be succesfull, because one bad move, and your toast), mostly because most people hasnt been practicing their whole lifetime.
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Can a terran player explain to me why they think zerg should require as much micro in a battle as terran. I'm a pretty bad player so might be missing something. As a zerg player I find that I have to constantly inject lavae during a battle and having a small taste of terran all you really need to do is group all your rax and hit a,a,a,d,d,d while still looking at the fight (you cant do that whilst injecting lavae).
Sure injecting lavae only takes about 1-2 secs but in SC2 where most engagements only last about 5-10 secs before its clear which side will win, thats 20-50% of your time not looking at the fight. If the two races required the same amount of micro what I envisage happening is the first fight ends up as a draw, terran marches in with another 12 marines and a few marauders soon after and zerg has 12 lings cause all they have is 6 lavae. Then the next time even worse because they don't even have 6 lavae.
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It's about the unit composition. You have to micro the hell out of marines to be cost efficient against banelings, if not, they are a really hard counter, while the zerg doesnt have to micro that much.
Anyways you stop a few secs for inject larva some time, the terran has to build new production structures, and tab through them. There are 4 different productions buildings for terran, while you have only 1 type as a zerg so it kinda balances it out. Larva management is a whole different concept tho. For example a bling/ling/muta army is really larva intensive which doesnt give you many room to drone up if your opponent is good enough to keep pressure since the begining with insane micro/macro. But there are more builds than just bling ling muta, but because most people doesnt have the skill required to pull off a Foxer (i am sorry for MVP he did well tho) it's pretty well rounded against most terrans. But going infestors instead mutas would had been imho a way better army composition to deal with foxer's strat.
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Thanks for the reply.
During my little stint in terran i found that it was quite easy to build production buildings in between battles and units are produced through control grouped buildings and reuire as much attention as zerg making units (which I think cancel out hence not bringing it up previously). I agree that a better unit composition would have done wonders against foxer (which shows how rigid korean zerg players are as well as their terran counter part). However maybe this is why I am as bad as I am, but I feel if someone needs to spend time doing other things during a battle its not reasonable to expect they need to use an equal amount of micro in battle otherwise it will make terran too easy to use compared to zerg or protoss mind u.
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Pushing out against zerg with tanks is scary if you havent done any harassment first. Thats why I always open banshees.
On blistering sands I have the dopest motha fucking TvZ build you'll ever see:
1 baracks, 1 factory, float baracks and factory to natural choke, fast expand, triple port, 2 tech labs, 1 naked, another baracks with a reactor, double banshees no cloak, raven energy, ravens, PDD if theres hydras and if theres mutas switch the port onto the baracks' reactor pump vikings and ravens.???????
Profit.
Please, Terran brothers, don't start crying now. We are proud.
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After watching Foxer vs Kyrix last night, my mind was blown. I can't believe the marine control!! Foxer plays like a SK Terran style. However, I believe in SC2, it is much harder to execute because of the marine spread micro needed against banelings. I believe the success of his style will mean that more terrans are going to copy it.
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On November 02 2010 10:20 Dracover wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
During my little stint in terran i found that it was quite easy to build production buildings in between battles and units are produced through control grouped buildings and reuire as much attention as zerg making units (which I think cancel out hence not bringing it up previously). I agree that a better unit composition would have done wonders against foxer (which shows how rigid korean zerg players are as well as their terran counter part). However maybe this is why I am as bad as I am, but I feel if someone needs to spend time doing other things during a battle its not reasonable to expect they need to use an equal amount of micro in battle otherwise it will make terran too easy to use compared to zerg or protoss mind u.
There is a trick to inject lightning fast. My brother who plays Z uses it all the time and it takes about 1 sec to inject all four hatches. There should be a video about it floating around on youtube. I told you that secret anyway even though you would use it to rape my Terran brothers on the ladder but I don't care because I like to play fair. The hardest part of infect is to remember to do it. I think we can look at Z having to inject as a price to pay for their ability to buy many units at once or better yet just stock larvas before battles. Please don't further include other game mechanics since it would lead to lots of other debate.
There are some replays of Tarson TvZ in the recent CraftCup at page 60 or something in the recommended replay thread. You can search my post to look for it in there since I asked and the caster was nice enough to post it. There is really no secret in his play really apparently just micro like there is no tomorrow and he will be able to beat some a-click lings and right-click bling. However he does have a nice FE opening which should give you enough resources to push. Check them out.
As for mati I will stop all discussion with him since he keeps missing the main idea of my posts. I am off practicing splitting marines. Adios.
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All these terran tears make me smile. Last time i checked terran has the two best/cost-effective ground units in the game, marines and marauders, at tier 1. The only difference now since the patch is that you cant sit behind ur stupid wall-ins anymore without fear of aggression until mutas (which get stopped with 3 turrets).
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Can a mod please check this tread wow so many people just crying imbalance how come this thread is even in strategy ! Its a new game for sure its not perfectly balance ! If you think something is imba stop crying and start thinking why and give some good argument why it would be imba ! If you think zerg is so op why dont you all go play zerg yourself !
Yes terran like foxer need lots of micro again banes but ou need to forge that the zerg need to spread creep, larva inject, morph bane And get a good surround in order to have effective attacks lol ! I think both race reqires some decent micro so please just stop whinin and post some decent comments woth some decents arguments if you think this mathup is imbalance !
Secondly, except if your playing in pro league, even in diamonds league players still have high differents skill levels so mayby the reason why you lose is maby not imba but your poor gameplay lol !
So hard to decide what is balance and not and im prett sure blizzard is working on it so play the game and works on YOUR gameplay and stop thinking the only reason you lose is always because of imba matchups !
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On November 02 2010 07:20 KaiserGL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 07:17 MrLonely wrote:On November 02 2010 06:37 KaiserGL wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thors are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
From the formatting to the actual content, this is probably the worst post I've read on these forums. You can't take each thing and compare it to your race's equivalent. ZERG CAN MAKE ALL THEIR UNITS FROM THEIR HATCHERIES SO IMBALANCED BOOHOOO!! Jesus... Terran have been buffed EVERY SINGLE patch except the last one, and Zerg/Protoss nerfed EVERY SINGLE patch, and suddenly you're acting like Terran have been shafted right from the start. I really, really hate you. (And you're seriously complaining about mules?) Lol you are just another typical zerg player. Terran have not received buffs every patch LMFAO, they get nerfed every single time. The things I said were no worse than any generic zerg complaint about terran a couple of months ago. Thanks for the completely unconstructive hate reply btw, You really made an impression. I never cared about zerg being able to make everything from hatch, thats how they have always been. I was simply pointing that detail out because a lot of people like you dont even appreciate the true strengths of zerg.
I play Terran.
Let's see:
Beta patch 1: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 2: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed (Mothership shafted). Zerg almost untouched (very small corruptor buff).
Beta patch 3: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg untouched.
Beta patch 4: Bug fix.
Beta patch 5: Terran untouched. Protoss nerfed. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 6: Terran mixed buffs and nerfs. Protoss mixed buffs and nerfs. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 7: Terran buffed. Protoss buffed (Cannons) and nerfed (storm). Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 8: Terran buffed. Protoss buffed. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 9: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg mixed buffs and nerfs.
Beta patch 10: Buf fix.
Beta patch 11: Terran buffed (HUGELY). Protoss mixed buffs and nerfs. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 12: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg nerfed.
Beta patch 13: Terran buffed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg experimented on weirdly.
Beta patch 14: Terran almost untouched (small viking nerf). Protoss buffed. Zerg buffed.
Beta patch 15: Terran nerfed. Protoss untouched. Zerg almost untouched.
Beta patch 16: Terran untouched. Protoss untouched. Zerg buffed.
Patch 1.1.0: Terran nerfed. Protoss nerfed. Zerg nerfed.
Patch 1.1.1: Terran untouched. Protoss untouched. Zerg nerfed (called bug fix).
Patch 1.1.2: Terran nerfed. Protoss almost untouched. Zerg buffed.
Terran been nerfed every patch, right?
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On November 02 2010 08:36 Keldaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 08:20 mati wrote:i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games (sry for my crappy english) Is that hard to understand he is not speaking about OP/UP. You are speaking about foxer vs kyrix like something doable for people which are not top notch just because their opponents aren't. Baneling micro is not really hard, spread rines, re-stimming, focus fire with tanks banelings while you are doing is not something doable for anyone who is not already a topnotch player. So yeah, T can beat Z with massive skills. This post is about people whose TvZ is struggling and try to find a new way to play that matchup. It's not diamond T can beat diamond Z using the same strat, because most people (and by most, i mean.... everybody and their mother) can't micro macro that way (and you need to micro that way to be succesfull, because one bad move, and your toast), mostly because most people hasnt been practicing their whole lifetime.
send ONE marauderer on the front, or ONE hellion... or anything you could squeeze that isnt light armored.... if the zerg just do "a-click" like you claim, he will loose so many baneling on that, it wont wort his while... keep your marine on a single control group, and all the micro you will need its gonna be "number - click away"... and thats it... If zerg is taking his banneling away from that tanking unit and manually following your marines (like he should!!), then he would be microing just as hard as you do... the harder you micro the harder he will have to micro to hit the marines...
Zerg Diamond USA micro should be similar to terran Diamond USA... you should be fine, just be willing to improve yourself!
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On November 03 2010 08:52 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 08:36 Keldaur wrote:On November 02 2010 08:20 mati wrote:i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games (sry for my crappy english) Is that hard to understand he is not speaking about OP/UP. You are speaking about foxer vs kyrix like something doable for people which are not top notch just because their opponents aren't. Baneling micro is not really hard, spread rines, re-stimming, focus fire with tanks banelings while you are doing is not something doable for anyone who is not already a topnotch player. So yeah, T can beat Z with massive skills. This post is about people whose TvZ is struggling and try to find a new way to play that matchup. It's not diamond T can beat diamond Z using the same strat, because most people (and by most, i mean.... everybody and their mother) can't micro macro that way (and you need to micro that way to be succesfull, because one bad move, and your toast), mostly because most people hasnt been practicing their whole lifetime. send ONE marauderer on the front, or ONE hellion... or anything you could squeeze that isnt light armored.... if the zerg just do "a-click" like you claim, he will loose so many baneling on that, it wont wort his while... keep your marine on a single control group, and all the micro you will need its gonna be "number - click away"... and thats it... If zerg is taking his banneling away from that tanking unit and manually following your marines (like he should!!), then he would be microing just as hard as you do... the harder you micro the harder he will have to micro to hit the marines... Zerg Diamond USA micro should be similar to terran Diamond USA... you should be fine, just be willing to improve yourself!
Can you stop this crap, foxer was MILES ahead in terms of skills of this kyrix guy and still barely won. Also, how can you even dare compare this kind of marine micro to a stupid MOVE COMMAND next to the marines before a-moving them ??? You are insane dude.
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On November 03 2010 08:52 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 08:36 Keldaur wrote:On November 02 2010 08:20 mati wrote:i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games (sry for my crappy english) Is that hard to understand he is not speaking about OP/UP. You are speaking about foxer vs kyrix like something doable for people which are not top notch just because their opponents aren't. Baneling micro is not really hard, spread rines, re-stimming, focus fire with tanks banelings while you are doing is not something doable for anyone who is not already a topnotch player. So yeah, T can beat Z with massive skills. This post is about people whose TvZ is struggling and try to find a new way to play that matchup. It's not diamond T can beat diamond Z using the same strat, because most people (and by most, i mean.... everybody and their mother) can't micro macro that way (and you need to micro that way to be succesfull, because one bad move, and your toast), mostly because most people hasnt been practicing their whole lifetime. send ONE marauderer on the front, or ONE hellion... or anything you could squeeze that isnt light armored.... if the zerg just do "a-click" like you claim, he will loose so many baneling on that, it wont wort his while... keep your marine on a single control group, and all the micro you will need its gonna be "number - click away"... and thats it... If zerg is taking his banneling away from that tanking unit and manually following your marines (like he should!!), then he would be microing just as hard as you do... the harder you micro the harder he will have to micro to hit the marines... Zerg Diamond USA micro should be similar to terran Diamond USA... you should be fine, just be willing to improve yourself!
This is just outright silly. You're suggesting that terrans should just stutterstep (which every terran does already) and if the Zerg player isn't retarded and knows how issue a move-command it's fair that T losses because they broke even in "skill"?
Also, hellions are light.
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ok crying will help you, keep it up
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I actually just played a diamond terran who went pure 3/3 marines just like foxer, im guessing he watched gsl.
it made my mutalisks completely irrelevant, and he micro'd excellently against my banelings (I dont amove then either). i lost but it was the most exciting match ive played in a while. marines kite banelings (even with speed) exceptionally well off creep, and on creep he'd spread them really nicely. he was also quite liberal in killing creep tumours.
The whining in this thread is kind of pathetic. whinging about nonexistant imbalance wont help you get any better
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It's not "non-existent" it's very existent. Just because kyrix does not know how to macro does not mean the games would have been close if it was a stronger Zerg.
kyrix just happened to do so well because he plays the entire opposite of what every good zerg does - he does ling/baneling all-ins/aggro.
What's worse is, if people really want to analyze...let's say...foxer vs kyrix game 5...kyrix had the game completely and utterly won. Creep spread over 50% of the map towards T, he killed T's entire army, and he was on 3 base.
So what does he do? Instead of doing what top tier zergs do, he fails under the pressure and decides to continue randomly building banelings instead of droning up, defending with bane/roaches/infestor, and claiming his freewin that he rightfully earned after all the pressure he put on.
foxer did indeed have great marine control, splits, and micro there on his part...but that was not at all what determined the direction of the game. Imagine had kyrix any semblance of a management game or macro, he'd have maintained his current army number after breaking into foxer's nat, he'd done up a little bit, get at least 1-2 infestors, and suddenly foxer is in a position where he HAS to attack and suicide into fungals/banelings, because if you don't zerg gets too big and you lose.
and if you do, you suicide ur army into bane/infestor and you still lose.
TvZ is a huge problem right now, and boxer is one of the few that are outspoken about it right now. Which he should be, because all the zergs were the last patches when it was totally against them.
Basically, to sum up that game 5, kyrix had the game, all he had to do was play 1.1.2 defensive style zerg AFTER he'd gotten such a huge lead, and it would be mathematically impossible for fauxer to come back, no matter how good his marine micro is.
Instead...kyrix stupidly decided to play the only possible style that terran has a chance of beating this patch...which is the aggro zerg style that has a million holes in it.
So yes. Foxer won the series versus kyrix...but kyrix did not play the strongest zerg style possible. Had he better decision making, he would have immediately switched to how idra/fruitdealer play after he gained the massive lead and it would be impossible to lose the game.
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On November 03 2010 08:52 mati wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 08:36 Keldaur wrote:On November 02 2010 08:20 mati wrote:i really like your iniciative on trying to get some custom maps to practice with this, that was my point... Maybe it is to hard, maybe it isnt balanced (i never ever cry about T being to overpowered vs zerg pre patch...), but GSL has probed beyond any doubts that TERRAN CAN BEAT ZERG. Maybe many of the zerg that loose on GSL matches made a lot of mistake? yes i cant argue with that, i never claim perfect game play from any player... But i can bet for sure, they are way better than any zerg you may face on bnet... So if GSL terran can beat GSL zerg, then Diamond USA Terran (or whatever server you are in) can beat Diamond USA zerg... Keep it up, try to be better, it is more gratificational than wining games (sry for my crappy english) Is that hard to understand he is not speaking about OP/UP. You are speaking about foxer vs kyrix like something doable for people which are not top notch just because their opponents aren't. Baneling micro is not really hard, spread rines, re-stimming, focus fire with tanks banelings while you are doing is not something doable for anyone who is not already a topnotch player. So yeah, T can beat Z with massive skills. This post is about people whose TvZ is struggling and try to find a new way to play that matchup. It's not diamond T can beat diamond Z using the same strat, because most people (and by most, i mean.... everybody and their mother) can't micro macro that way (and you need to micro that way to be succesfull, because one bad move, and your toast), mostly because most people hasnt been practicing their whole lifetime. send ONE marauderer on the front, or ONE hellion... or anything you could squeeze that isnt light armored.... if the zerg just do "a-click" like you claim, he will loose so many baneling on that, it wont wort his while... keep your marine on a single control group, and all the micro you will need its gonna be "number - click away"... and thats it... If zerg is taking his banneling away from that tanking unit and manually following your marines (like he should!!), then he would be microing just as hard as you do... the harder you micro the harder he will have to micro to hit the marines... Zerg Diamond USA micro should be similar to terran Diamond USA... you should be fine, just be willing to improve yourself!
Man, you are comparing spread marines in 3-5 groups to 1 group move. Good job trying, so bad you are not thinking deep enough.
And btw moron, hellions are light. Go get a fucking clue before you try to type something. I dislike whiners, but i dislike way more retards who try to tell people l2p with no real backup to explain why they should l2p.
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Think it about this way.
Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level? If the answer is no, then the current situation would only improve for the terrain as players get better.
To complain about it now is to complain how protoss is better in SC because 1a2a3a is so strong. We can talk about the balance when some sort of skill semi-upper limit is visible or that one side is just lol stomprolling the other.
Instead...kyrix stupidly decided to play the only possible style that terran has a chance of beating this patch...which is the aggro zerg style that has a million holes in it.
Macro, you mean lol Fruitdealer? If you conceed map control to Terran and just drone, you could be hit by a large number of attacks and die before noticing what happened. Hell, if foxer didn't get hit by the mass banes build, he wouldn't have lost g2/g3 in such silly fashion and I wouldn't say that isn't effective. Let the meta stabilize first before jumping trains, really.
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On November 03 2010 12:57 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Think it about this way.
Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level?
Banelings can be overlord dropped onto fungaled packs...
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On November 03 2010 10:07 mati wrote:ok crying will help you, keep it up
It helped zergs get friendly patch changes
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On November 03 2010 13:17 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 12:57 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Think it about this way.
Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level? Banelings can be overlord dropped onto fungaled packs...
You're likely going to see more flanks to trap marines and prevent their ability to kite banelings. You may also people with mutalisks punish marine players with split up marine groups by picking off the edges of the group or attacking separated medivacs.
People can also start incorporating burrowed banelings more often to delay/slow the marine pushes buying more time to get a critical amount of larva production or later tech. While not a straight micro skill the mind game of positioning and detonating burrowed banelings is key.
Outside of that people will likely start abusing split marines by going more ling + upgrade heavy and exploiting the increased surface area the marine army has when split up. If you can get ahead of the marine player in upgrades lings become very effective.
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On November 03 2010 11:22 Keldaur wrote:
Man, you are comparing spread marines in 3-5 groups to 1 group move. Good job trying, so bad you are not thinking deep enough.
And btw moron, hellions are light. Go get a fucking clue before you try to type something. I dislike whiners, but i dislike way more retards who try to tell people l2p with no real backup to explain why they should l2p.
never claimed hellion being light, just said that bling are not cost effective agaisnt them, and also any non-light armored unit. Try to get a "clue on understanding text" before posting "moron"
On November 03 2010 13:17 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 12:57 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Think it about this way.
Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level? Banelings can be overlord dropped onto fungaled packs...
spreading marines works as well vs fungal grow as it does with banelling...
On November 03 2010 14:13 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 13:17 Moja wrote:On November 03 2010 12:57 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Think it about this way.
Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level? Banelings can be overlord dropped onto fungaled packs... You're likely going to see more flanks to trap marines and prevent their ability to kite banelings. You may also people with mutalisks punish marine players with split up marine groups by picking off the edges of the group or attacking separated medivacs. People can also start incorporating burrowed banelings more often to delay/slow the marine pushes buying more time to get a critical amount of larva production or later tech. While not a straight micro skill the mind game of positioning and detonating burrowed banelings is key. Outside of that people will likely start abusing split marines by going more ling + upgrade heavy and exploiting the increased surface area the marine army has when split up. If you can get ahead of the marine player in upgrades lings become very effective.
Im having lots of problem with this kind of "logic": Why did zerg manage to get banneling and mutalisk, infestors, droping overlords, while you only got marines?
Terran players seem to be looking for a magic unit to be massed and win everything with just that... (not saying is your case Logo, just as a general rule about the post here)... The main reason you are making marines is to deal with mutalisks... If your opponent dont have mutalisks, and he is just going for lings/blings... you can make many other units to deal with them, hellions, sieges, even thors (you need so many bling to kill them, it wont be nearly cost effective).
The main "thing" seems to be middle/late game options... lets say zerg is doing clasical:
Mutalisks/Blings/Lings
You can go.. Thors Hellions Marines, Thor can just sit there (no micro at all) keep hellions behind thors so they kill speedling on thor (click n hold, really isnt hard to do), marine running back from banellings... here is the micro intensive... but thats it... Baneling wont be able to "a click" or whatever, they will suicide vs thors... so they will have to micro as hard as you do.. Zerg doesnt have infinite gas, he must choose or balance between mutalisks/banelings... make more thor (you need 20 bling to kill one thor... 1000 mineral 500 gas vs 300m 200g) or marine acording your needs... Mutalisks can own spread marines? yes... but they need to clump together for that, becoming they self free kills for the Thor.
He add droping overlords? Add some vikings (they will help vs mutalisks anyway) and do some focus fire with vikings + marines (also look at foxer play vs kyrix game 5)
Getting infestor to early hurt zerg economy to badly... He cant get enough mutalisk/banelings AND infestor with out a 4th base... So if there are infestors on mid game, that means less of the others... If it is late game, add some raven (you should have 1 anyway to deal vs burrowed/creep tumors) with HSM, and hurt him badly...
Zerg vs Terran isnt a Banelings vs Marine match just happend that kyrix vs foxer focus on that, and like Foxer himseld said on the interview... "Why did you go mainly marines vs banelings - I wanted to probe that you can defeat banelings with marines"... kinda of stuborn but well, he won, who can blame him? :p... And we are talking about the "direct counter" here... is like proving you can kill a pike unit with mounted unit...
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On November 03 2010 10:15 Sniffy wrote:I actually just played a diamond terran who went pure 3/3 marines just like foxer, im guessing he watched gsl. it made my mutalisks completely irrelevant, and he micro'd excellently against my banelings (I dont amove then either). i lost but it was the most exciting match ive played in a while. marines kite banelings (even with speed) exceptionally well off creep, and on creep he'd spread them really nicely. he was also quite liberal in killing creep tumours. The whining in this thread is kind of pathetic. whinging about nonexistant imbalance wont help you get any better
Same, I played one earlier, expect I cut mutas and went infestor + bane/sling so I just fungaled and raped his marines.
I feel like mass upgraded marines isn't the answer. What would Fake Boxer do if the opponent has fungals? Do you just spread marines all the time to avoid fungals?
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On November 03 2010 12:57 SWPIGWANG wrote:Think it about this way. Marine micro can only get better as players get more skilled. Can banes even be microed to improve performance at anywhere the same level? If the answer is no, then the current situation would only improve for the terrain as players get better. To complain about it now is to complain how protoss is better in SC because 1a2a3a is so strong. We can talk about the balance when some sort of skill semi-upper limit is visible or that one side is just lol stomprolling the other. Show nested quote +Instead...kyrix stupidly decided to play the only possible style that terran has a chance of beating this patch...which is the aggro zerg style that has a million holes in it. Macro, you mean lol Fruitdealer? If you conceed map control to Terran and just drone, you could be hit by a large number of attacks and die before noticing what happened. Hell, if foxer didn't get hit by the mass banes build, he wouldn't have lost g2/g3 in such silly fashion and I wouldn't say that isn't effective. Let the meta stabilize first before jumping trains, really.
Thix would be true if it werent for infestors. With infestors in there you cant really micro as terran.
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Q. KyrixZenith never used infestor against you.
A. If the zerg went infestors, they tended to be overwhelmed by my aggression during practice. He definitely made the right choice of not making infestors I think.
From the GSL interview after the match.
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On November 03 2010 10:31 avilo wrote:
It's not "non-existent" it's very existent. Just because kyrix does not know how to macro does not mean the games would have been close if it was a stronger Zerg.
This type of argument is so incredibly stupid. But I expect nothing less from Avilo.
Yes if Kyrix was better he would have won. Also if Foxer was better he would have won more easily.
Wow what a profound argument /facepalm.
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Wow Terrans are apparently too lazy now-a-days to learn some *real* micro. As if pure marine vs lurkers was complete suicide in BW.
Spreading vs infestors would help a lot in my opinion. Most zergs keep their banes back a little bit a try to get the fungal off first, but if you spread and send only a portions of army ahead at a time you ruin the cost effectiveness of fungals, however you need to scan ahead and know where his infestors are so you are able to micro in time. Also cutting something like mutalisks might leave you more susceptible to medivac drops and viking/banshee shenanigans.
I think FoxeR's aggression early on makes many zergs think twice about trying to tech to infestors as it may leave them vulnerable to the pressure if they don't continue to pump out lings/roaches/mutas.
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On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do.
yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
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On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please.
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On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
Those top Terrans happen to be :
1) Fauxer, who is an ass raping TvZ machine with the most godly marine micro we've seen so far
2) The Legendary Emperor of T in SC1, and mass rape machine here
3) ITR, HopeTorture, an excellent BW Pro in his own right who was last seasons finalist, and really would have won if he grew a pair of balls and didn't play so badly.
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On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please.
That's rich.
He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs.
Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion.
Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen?
Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts.
But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer.
In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg.
Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs.
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On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:
I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up:
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
They did their figuring, that's for sure. In the tournament overall Zerg players have won more TvZ match-ups and individual games, but the best Terrans (FakeBoxeR, HopeTorture etc.) have adapted and gone through.
Really looking forward to seeing what NesTea and RealBoxeR bring for their match-up next round. And I have a feeling that FruitDealer's going to bring a whole new level of Zerg play to GSL 3.
Watching all the tactical evolution has been awesome.
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On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs.
Looking at the results don't always say things about imbalance. Did you see the way Check went out? He tried a 6 pool lame shit and got owned by ITR's micro. Then on scrap station he went down because of a clever timing attack with unique unit combo: vikings, marauders and hellion before any mutas are out. Conclusion: CheckPrime decided to try lame shit instead of playing a macro game that Z is heavily favored.
How did foxer beat FD? He proxy rax to kill FD before anything even come out. Next game he sent two dropships full of marines that luckily went undetected and took out hatch early in game. That is before mutas are out. Had foxer tried to play like he did against Kyrix FD would have raped him pretty badly with his ungodly macro with the Zerg race.
How did Nada do? He did a massive 2 base push when his third base got breached. That was the of of the only 2 wins of Terran that is close to a macro game so far. The other being Fauxer vs Kyrix.
Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
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yeah well the GSL matches are showing just how strong zerg is. terrans are getting proper stomped, and yes as terran its always walking a line against zerg. zerg in sc2 marcos even harder than zerg in BW.
main problem is the terran cant afford to lose his army while the zerg can. that always screws the terran.
Shhshhhh...
quarters --> 3 T and one Z
T proper stomped by Z sounds a bit much...
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Looking at the results don't always say things about imbalance. Did you see the way Check went out? He tried a 6 pool lame shit and got owned by ITR's micro. Then on scrap station he went down because of a clever timing attack with unique unit combo: vikings, marauders and hellion before any mutas are out. Conclusion: CheckPrime decided to try lame shit instead of playing a macro game that Z is heavily favored. How did foxer beat FD? He proxy rax to kill FD before anything even come out. Next game he sent two dropships full of marines that luckily went undetected and took out hatch early in game. That is before mutas are out. Had foxer tried to play like he did against Kyrix FD would have raped him pretty badly with his ungodly macro with the Zerg race. How did Nada do? He did a massive 2 base push when his third base got breached. That was the of of the only 2 wins of Terran that is close to a macro game so far. The other being Fauxer vs Kyrix. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
Holy shit. A poster that actually constructs logical thoughts instead of fanboi thoughts. Thank you for actually analyzing the games instead of spouting out bullshit.
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think.
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not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them?
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Against good macro zergs I find Nada's words to be spot on. In SC2 right now Terran has to keep up with zerg in number of expos. The production capability from larvae spawn is pretty good. I have had so many games where if I was down an expo, even if I did significant damage to zerg (killed all drones at an expo and 80% of his army while losing most my units), it doesn't do much. I prepare for a second timing push for a killing blow or take an expo and next thing I know there are a gazillion roaches and mutas in my face.
When zerg can make 10+ drones in one production round, mid game harass and less then crippling timing pushes just don't cut it. The only answer that works is relentless aggression (foxer style) or a very strong push that kills zerg outright or finishes of his main (i.e., kill off his tech) anything short and terran is effed for the rest of the game unless zerg messes up big time.
Also rax fe builds are not very good. Good zergs double expand and by the time your expo is up and running, there is no way terran can keep up with 3-4 hatch plus spawn larvae.
I am not going to cry imba but I do think that Terrans need to step back and take a long hard look at TvZ to come up with some good strats because as zerg's figure out this matchup more it will become much more difficult.
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On November 04 2010 04:50 SikLyric wrote:
not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them?
Check = professional War3 right?
FD = professional starcraft player
IdrA = B team SC1 pro who came SOOOOOO close to beating stork... twice (I think it was stork...)
Zenio = also a former pro
kyrix = i don't know
None of the people are scrubs. It certainly SEEMS like terran have to outplay the zergs right now (I say that as a diehard zerg).
Also boxer is complaining a lot, and I respect his imput.
It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony.
Still 3 terrans in the top 4 is tough to do (not impossible) if terran is under powered.
Too close to call in my honest opinion. All I can say is I DO NOT think zerg is UP vs terran lol
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On November 04 2010 04:48 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think.
This post does wonder to your credibility. If you have any reasons at all to disagree please state them. I thought for someone with more than 4000 posts you can do better than this. I guess I should not be surprised that you reach such a high post count if all your posts are one liner like this.
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On November 04 2010 04:59 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:50 SikLyric wrote:
not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them? Check = professional War3 right? FD = professional starcraft player IdrA = B team SC1 pro who came SOOOOOO close to beating stork... twice (I think it was stork...) Zenio = also a former pro kyrix = i don't know None of the people are scrubs. It certainly SEEMS like terran have to outplay the zergs right now (I say that as a diehard zerg). Also boxer is complaining a lot, and I respect his imput. It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony. Still 3 terrans in the top 4 is tough to do (not impossible) if terran is under powered. Too close to call in my honest opinion. All I can say is I DO NOT think zerg is UP vs terran lol
most pro war3 players have struggled in GSL (almost all of werra clan)
if I asked you who ITR, boxer, and nada where prior to sc2, you would have known them
doubtful about zenio(he's a former pro?) FD aka Cool
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On November 04 2010 04:59 Beef Noodles wrote:
It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony.
LOL what i Have been trying to say
I didnt think zerg was UP pre patch. just look at fruit dealer we won GSL 1 and on his way, he took out some of the best terrans at the time. But all zerg whining worked. wats wrong if terran whines a bit? seriously....
and going back to the discussion.
Ya Check was dumb for trying to cheese while FD's style was thoroughly studied by Foxer to find his weaknesses (no1 has a perfect game).
Look at wat happened to MakaPrime. He didnt play poorly, he is a good player but got roflstomped by thewind. All depends on the player
I still think the game is quite balanced at the pro level but in the 2000 diamond level. it is dam hard to beat zergs
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:
Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
Perhaps the end result of TvZ evolution with pre-macro, pre-infestor styles is a mirror of TvP of "Terran wins early game, lose late game." Its not like Zerg starts with 4 bases with speed lord dropping ultras on a map of creep.
If you want to turn over a blizz balance attempt, try the BC nerf and the tank nerf, not the "Terran early game isn't imba enough and we need 5RR option" patch.
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On November 04 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:48 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think. This post does wonder to your credibility. If you have any reasons at all to disagree please state them. I thought for someone with more than 4000 posts you can do better than this. I guess I should not be surprised that you reach such a high post count if all your posts are one liner like this.
I got this many posts by not trolling; like you're doing right now.
You were arguing against a position I didn't take.
All I said was that the results do not support this idea that top Terran players can't beat top Zergs.
You talked about Terran having to apply pressure. Yes, correct, that is the essential nature of the matchup. The onus is on the Terran player to force the Zerg into making units and expending larvae and resources on defence.
That IS TvZ, that's the beauty of it.
The steady, slow building, econ of the Terran; versus the explosive and volatile econ of the Zerg.
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People need to stop citing this '3 terrans and 1 zerg in the semi-finals' deal. If you want a meaningful statistic, look at every TvZ matchup, tally up who won each, and compare the advancement rate.
You're going to end up with 3t 1z regardless of balance if there are way more Terrans entering and then half the zergs try to sixpool you or baneling bust you 5 games in a row.
Anyway, it is a bit more balanced at the GSL-level of skill because Terran players have the mechanics to split their marines up nearly instantaneously. When you're playing with someone across the country or even across a continent and you have significant delay and don't have foxer-levels of APM, the matchup sort of feels like hell, at least for me.
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Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be.
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On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be.
You can't really make anything of Foxer 'beating' Kyrix (edited to fix typo). He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series.
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On November 04 2010 08:40 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be. You can't really make anything of Kyrix 'beating' Foxer. He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series.
In what ways did balance effect that game?
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Wait, Fruit Dealer winning the GSL last season didn't mean Zerg weren't UP, so why are Zerg players pointing at the GSL for proof Terran aren't UP?
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On November 04 2010 08:50 fusihunter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 08:40 iEchoic wrote:On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be. You can't really make anything of Kyrix 'beating' Foxer. He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series. In what ways did balance effect that game?
I wasn't saying that balance directly affected that game, I was just saying that a lot of people are making way too much of Foxer beating Kyrix. Foxer massively outplayed Kyrix and managed to barely steal a game that didn't belong to him. Kyrix basically had the game won and handed it over to him.
The FruitDealer comparison that you made doesn't really apply IMO. They both played out of their minds but the results were very different.
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^^
Ah ok, so you're simply saying he made too many mistakes for it to be a feasible argument.
I'd argue against that, but i'm happy to agree to disagree. It really is impossible to know if Foxer
"Started playing better" when he realised his GSL days were on the line :D though. I still think there are options for Terran early game, and Foxer for one has been showing that generally ( except for that game, where he essentially failed at the early game but then shone later )
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Last few pages of this thread are a complete trainwreck . People should know better than balance 'discussion' in this manner.
Trying to stay on topic of playing the actual matchup, 2Fresh your build looks like a beast in theory - cant wait to try it out! Any chance of some more replays?
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To anyone who's interested:
KyrixZenith Build Order (might not be 100%, but feels fluid - 1st Game against Boxer):
+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
15 Hatchery (14 Hatch 14 Pool - doesn't really make a difference)
15 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
17 Extractor > put 2 on gas
17 Queen > spawn larvae > spawn larvae > spawn larvae > spawn larvae
19 Zergling [4]
23 Queen > spawn larvae > creep tumor > spawn larvae
25 Drone
26 Zergling
27 Overlord
27 Drone [5]
32 Metabolic Boost
33 Overlord
33 Drone [3]
36 put 1 on gas
36 Extractor > put 3 on gas
35 Drone [3]
38 Overlord [2]
38 Baneling Nest
37 Drone[3]
40 Zergling [4]
44 Overlord
44 Zergling [6]
50 Baneling [10]
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On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion.
what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
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i go for fast reactor for hellions built 4 and harras during that time u built 2 startports with banshees
and push with them too
if he block my gas i built 1 starport with reactor and built some vikings
well after some harras expand try to built as a fast thor to secure my base vs mutas
and then i built from 5 raxes my army
and push out
most of the time i win because i can reinforce my army faster then the zerg
if you win a main battle try to keep pushing because zerg is really weak on that time and need time to regroup
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On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
That's absolutely wrong (whoever was arguing that that's the only way terrans know how to play). Well, you can argue that for PvZ, but certainly not for TvZ. It's crazy to believe that Terrans "don't know how to play" late game and instead just do allin pushes off 1-2 bases.
If you and others would keep up with how the metagame was in beta pre-Terran dominance, it was Zerg dominated in late game, to the point where if the game did go past 10 minutes in beta in a TvZ, it was impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg.
That is currently how the game is now in 1.1.2. All good Terrans know this, as well as good defensive macro Zergs. That's why if you see Terrans, especially pro-level Terrans, doing these 1-2 base all-ins, or "weird + gimmicky" builds, it's because they know if the game lasts long, it is impossible to win anyways. So you have to do some sort of aggressive gimmick to have any chance at all.
That's how it was in beta before Terran mech became prevalent. It was impossible to win a macro game TvZ, especially the era of 1 supply roaches. As soon as it WAS possible for Terran to win a late game macro game versus Zerg...guess what happened? Zergs COMPLAINED. They whined it up massively. Just like now Terrans are, except it's a legitimate complaint that Terran cannot win late game vesus Zerg (similar situation versus templars late game TvP right now).
So no. People need to stop making these uneducated posts about how Terrans mysteriously do not know how to play late game management games versus Zerg. It's absolutely not the case. A late game management game = Zerg Win. All of the top tier Terrans know that right now, and they play against the clock essentially every ZvT.
Also, adding to what ichoic said about foxer's series game 5, and what I have said also many times in my posts about that game...kyrix played the only possible style of zerg where a terran would have a chance to win - aggro zerg.
A defensive zerg style in the current patch guarantees a win in ZvT once the game has reached a certain point.
Now, that is not to say that how kyrix played was bad. He actually played great, and utilized his style well. But had he transitioned from his aggro, back into the invincible defensive macro zerg, he would have guaranteed himself a victory because of how far ahead he was from his ling/baneling abuse.
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On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
You've clearly only ever played zerg.
TvZ and TvP are totally retarded right now.
TvZ, Zerg can basically macro all game, trade armies once with Terran, and the game is over. The only way Terran can win currently is to have a solid midgame push that puts zerg so far behind economically that it's impossible to come back. If Terran ever makes any mistake at all at any point in the game, they lose. If the positions are far away (think cross positions on metalopolis) they lose. The reason why you see 2-base timing pushes is because that's the peak of Terran economy. anything past that, zerg is able to outmacro Terran, anything before that, zerg can pretty much defend easily if they scout well, and are playing in map positions that give them enough time to respond.
The same goes in TvP. Right now, terran pretty much has to do some sort of 3-rax all-in, or 2-rax expand into a 3-rax timing push. I've played and seen games of high level players where Terran literally killed the nat and 3rd of Toss, only to make one failed engagment, or hit collosus abusing terrain, and then toss either gets about 5 collosus, or more likely techs to templar, at which point you can have 3 bases to toss's 1 that's nearly mined out, and still lose, because 4 or 5 storms obliterate your army regardless of how good your control is.
At the current state of the game, the amount of more skill a Terran needs to beat a protoss or zerg player of equal ranks is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that there are so many Terrans doing well in the GSL can only mean that they are playing so well that they simply do not make mistakes. Zerg and Protoss are not punished nearly as hard as Terran players are for making equally bad mistakes, and that's obviously not correct.
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On November 04 2010 13:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier. That's absolutely wrong (whoever was arguing that that's the only way terrans know how to play). Well, you can argue that for PvZ, but certainly not for TvZ. It's crazy to believe that Terrans "don't know how to play" late game and instead just do allin pushes off 1-2 bases. If you and others would keep up with how the metagame was in beta pre-Terran dominance, it was Zerg dominated in late game, to the point where if the game did go past 10 minutes in beta in a TvZ, it was impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg. That is currently how the game is now in 1.1.2. All good Terrans know this, as well as good defensive macro Zergs. That's why if you see Terrans, especially pro-level Terrans, doing these 1-2 base all-ins, or "weird + gimmicky" builds, it's because they know if the game lasts long, it is impossible to win anyways. So you have to do some sort of aggressive gimmick to have any chance at all. That's how it was in beta before Terran mech became prevalent. It was impossible to win a macro game TvZ, especially the era of 1 supply roaches. As soon as it WAS possible for Terran to win a late game macro game versus Zerg...guess what happened? Zergs COMPLAINED. They whined it up massively. Just like now Terrans are, except it's a legitimate complaint that Terran cannot win late game vesus Zerg (similar situation versus templars late game TvP right now). So no. People need to stop making these uneducated posts about how Terrans mysteriously do not know how to play late game management games versus Zerg. It's absolutely not the case. A late game management game = Zerg Win. All of the top tier Terrans know that right now, and they play against the clock essentially every ZvT. Also, adding to what ichoic said about foxer's series game 5, and what I have said also many times in my posts about that game...kyrix played the only possible style of zerg where a terran would have a chance to win - aggro zerg. A defensive zerg style in the current patch guarantees a win in ZvT once the game has reached a certain point. Now, that is not to say that how kyrix played was bad. He actually played great, and utilized his style well. But had he transitioned from his aggro, back into the invincible defensive macro zerg, he would have guaranteed himself a victory because of how far ahead he was from his ling/baneling abuse.
What you're saying about the Foxer game is pretty much correct. But again there's nothing revealing about that; it's just the nature of TvZ.
Foxer's build was poor. He did a non-econ 111 and did basically 0 damage.
NaDa does it much better, getting his CC before the starport but in his main. He gets a better econ, still gets a fast banshee and is able to move his CC out when he's comfortable. (he also gets 2 bunkers)
The Zerg did a 2 base timing attack and got miles ahead. When Zerg gets ahead he has to pull back and macro. Incidently when Terran gets ahead they just win instantly; is that meaningful? Not really.
All this talk about "aggressive gimmick" is just hot air. That IS TvZ. Terran has to apply pressure, same in BroodWar.
The difference is in Starcraft2 the defensive power of both Terran and Zerg has been severely reduced. A long TvZ in BroodWar happens when the Terran applies pressure but can't push in. He sits on the map stopping the Zerg from taking all the expos and making his own expansions safe.
In Starcraft2 that just barely happens. Sunkens aren't as good, there's no highground advantage, there's no defilers, no lurkers, there's far less choking advantage for marines because of banelings, drop play is much easier from both sides, mutalisks are weaker and don't hold the Terran in his base.
Lots of the things that extended the game in BroodWar have been taken out, resulting in much shorter games.
Yeah I'd agree with you that SC2 is badly designed but at least it's moving in the right direction. By reducing Terrran all-ins they stabilised the early game a bit more, giving Zerg players a chance.
Unfortunately they still have a massive way to go. They need to restore the choking advantage of Terrans but make them weaker when spread out. (In BroodWar much stronger lings, but no banelings achieved this).
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On November 04 2010 03:20 eatpraylove wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:
I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up:
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow They did their figuring, that's for sure. In the tournament overall Zerg players have won more TvZ match-ups and individual games, but the best Terrans (FakeBoxeR, HopeTorture etc.) have adapted and gone through.
In tournament maybe, but that's because a lot more bad terrans qualified then bad zergs. It's so missleading to take the overall TvZ stats of the tournament when in the end terrans rule the tournament
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seems like terrans metagame develops the fastest, they always have some innovative build cooked before tournament and everybody is surprised and cought with their pants down (ie latest marauder/helion/viking drop on scrap by ITR), problem is this builds wont work twice vs the same opponent but the goal is archived T wins tournament, it doesnt solve the problem with late game in TvX because majority of torunament games end before 12 minute mark (the ones which last longer usually end with terran losing).
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EPT
