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On November 04 2010 08:50 fusihunter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 08:40 iEchoic wrote:On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be. You can't really make anything of Kyrix 'beating' Foxer. He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series. In what ways did balance effect that game?
I wasn't saying that balance directly affected that game, I was just saying that a lot of people are making way too much of Foxer beating Kyrix. Foxer massively outplayed Kyrix and managed to barely steal a game that didn't belong to him. Kyrix basically had the game won and handed it over to him.
The FruitDealer comparison that you made doesn't really apply IMO. They both played out of their minds but the results were very different.
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^^
Ah ok, so you're simply saying he made too many mistakes for it to be a feasible argument.
I'd argue against that, but i'm happy to agree to disagree. It really is impossible to know if Foxer
"Started playing better" when he realised his GSL days were on the line :D though. I still think there are options for Terran early game, and Foxer for one has been showing that generally ( except for that game, where he essentially failed at the early game but then shone later )
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Last few pages of this thread are a complete trainwreck  . People should know better than balance 'discussion' in this manner.
Trying to stay on topic of playing the actual matchup, 2Fresh your build looks like a beast in theory - cant wait to try it out! Any chance of some more replays?
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To anyone who's interested:
KyrixZenith Build Order (might not be 100%, but feels fluid - 1st Game against Boxer):
+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
15 Hatchery (14 Hatch 14 Pool - doesn't really make a difference)
15 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
17 Extractor > put 2 on gas
17 Queen > spawn larvae > spawn larvae > spawn larvae > spawn larvae
19 Zergling [4]
23 Queen > spawn larvae > creep tumor > spawn larvae
25 Drone
26 Zergling
27 Overlord
27 Drone [5]
32 Metabolic Boost
33 Overlord
33 Drone [3]
36 put 1 on gas
36 Extractor > put 3 on gas
35 Drone [3]
38 Overlord [2]
38 Baneling Nest
37 Drone[3]
40 Zergling [4]
44 Overlord
44 Zergling [6]
50 Baneling [10]
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On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion.
what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
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i go for fast reactor for hellions built 4 and harras during that time u built 2 startports with banshees
and push with them too
if he block my gas i built 1 starport with reactor and built some vikings
well after some harras expand try to built as a fast thor to secure my base vs mutas
and then i built from 5 raxes my army
and push out
most of the time i win because i can reinforce my army faster then the zerg
if you win a main battle try to keep pushing because zerg is really weak on that time and need time to regroup
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On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
That's absolutely wrong (whoever was arguing that that's the only way terrans know how to play). Well, you can argue that for PvZ, but certainly not for TvZ. It's crazy to believe that Terrans "don't know how to play" late game and instead just do allin pushes off 1-2 bases.
If you and others would keep up with how the metagame was in beta pre-Terran dominance, it was Zerg dominated in late game, to the point where if the game did go past 10 minutes in beta in a TvZ, it was impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg.
That is currently how the game is now in 1.1.2. All good Terrans know this, as well as good defensive macro Zergs. That's why if you see Terrans, especially pro-level Terrans, doing these 1-2 base all-ins, or "weird + gimmicky" builds, it's because they know if the game lasts long, it is impossible to win anyways. So you have to do some sort of aggressive gimmick to have any chance at all.
That's how it was in beta before Terran mech became prevalent. It was impossible to win a macro game TvZ, especially the era of 1 supply roaches. As soon as it WAS possible for Terran to win a late game macro game versus Zerg...guess what happened? Zergs COMPLAINED. They whined it up massively. Just like now Terrans are, except it's a legitimate complaint that Terran cannot win late game vesus Zerg (similar situation versus templars late game TvP right now).
So no. People need to stop making these uneducated posts about how Terrans mysteriously do not know how to play late game management games versus Zerg. It's absolutely not the case. A late game management game = Zerg Win. All of the top tier Terrans know that right now, and they play against the clock essentially every ZvT.
Also, adding to what ichoic said about foxer's series game 5, and what I have said also many times in my posts about that game...kyrix played the only possible style of zerg where a terran would have a chance to win - aggro zerg.
A defensive zerg style in the current patch guarantees a win in ZvT once the game has reached a certain point.
Now, that is not to say that how kyrix played was bad. He actually played great, and utilized his style well. But had he transitioned from his aggro, back into the invincible defensive macro zerg, he would have guaranteed himself a victory because of how far ahead he was from his ling/baneling abuse.
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On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier.
You've clearly only ever played zerg.
TvZ and TvP are totally retarded right now.
TvZ, Zerg can basically macro all game, trade armies once with Terran, and the game is over. The only way Terran can win currently is to have a solid midgame push that puts zerg so far behind economically that it's impossible to come back. If Terran ever makes any mistake at all at any point in the game, they lose. If the positions are far away (think cross positions on metalopolis) they lose. The reason why you see 2-base timing pushes is because that's the peak of Terran economy. anything past that, zerg is able to outmacro Terran, anything before that, zerg can pretty much defend easily if they scout well, and are playing in map positions that give them enough time to respond.
The same goes in TvP. Right now, terran pretty much has to do some sort of 3-rax all-in, or 2-rax expand into a 3-rax timing push. I've played and seen games of high level players where Terran literally killed the nat and 3rd of Toss, only to make one failed engagment, or hit collosus abusing terrain, and then toss either gets about 5 collosus, or more likely techs to templar, at which point you can have 3 bases to toss's 1 that's nearly mined out, and still lose, because 4 or 5 storms obliterate your army regardless of how good your control is.
At the current state of the game, the amount of more skill a Terran needs to beat a protoss or zerg player of equal ranks is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that there are so many Terrans doing well in the GSL can only mean that they are playing so well that they simply do not make mistakes. Zerg and Protoss are not punished nearly as hard as Terran players are for making equally bad mistakes, and that's obviously not correct.
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On November 04 2010 13:58 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 10:18 charlie420247 wrote:On October 27 2010 07:54 positron. wrote:On October 27 2010 07:05 hp.Shell wrote:
Because T used to be OP before the patch, Z and P players were probably practicing XvT like hell to have a chance at placing higher in the GSL. Because Z used to be underpowered, T probably practiced TvZ less. The fact that Fruit Dealer won GSL1 in a ZvT before the patch is a testament to his ZvT preparation. He went 3-1 in the finals before this patch. Do you really think Rainbow would have a chance vs FD in a TvZ now that the game is more balanced?
I feel the players in the GSL are worst at taking expansions when they have a 49% chance of losing the game. Z players are playing better overall than T or P, imo, and I play P. Now that T is finally not OP anymore, the skill of the Z players is showing by who is going deeper into the tournament. Also, top level Zs have figured out their expansion timings better than any other race's top players, period. This is a huge reason why Z is winning so much. When's the last time you saw a top-level SC2 P or T take 60% of the map? Yeah, I went there. This is a dumb argument to make. Why you don't see T or P take 60% of the map? Because T or P are not supposed to/ can't play that way. Zerg need hatch to produce whereas T or P don't. Their mobility of muta and lings allow them to defend many bases without investing heavily on static defense. For a Terran to secure that third base he needs to invest 150/150 or a PF and 400 for turrets at a the minimum in addition for the 400 for a CC. All that resources cannot be put to offense like lings or mutas. Even with 4 turrets that base is going to be harassed all day with 10 mutas. PoltPrime lost his series because he was unable to secure that third which is pretty common for Terrans at all levels. How do you know the game is balanced? Because Z wins more? So when Terran was winning it was because of imbalance and now that Z is winning it is because they are good? Please enlighten me with the brilliant logic that led you to that conclusion. what i think hes saying is, the only way toss and terran know how to play is either huge allin push off 1-2 bases or fast expand into turtle into some gimmicky drop or blink micro and they never even think about taking a third untill the game is already decided lol and befor the patch this kind of play was really strong maybe even too strong i think zegs were actually starting to figure out how to deal with it a little better and then the patch just made it that much easier. That's absolutely wrong (whoever was arguing that that's the only way terrans know how to play). Well, you can argue that for PvZ, but certainly not for TvZ. It's crazy to believe that Terrans "don't know how to play" late game and instead just do allin pushes off 1-2 bases. If you and others would keep up with how the metagame was in beta pre-Terran dominance, it was Zerg dominated in late game, to the point where if the game did go past 10 minutes in beta in a TvZ, it was impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg. That is currently how the game is now in 1.1.2. All good Terrans know this, as well as good defensive macro Zergs. That's why if you see Terrans, especially pro-level Terrans, doing these 1-2 base all-ins, or "weird + gimmicky" builds, it's because they know if the game lasts long, it is impossible to win anyways. So you have to do some sort of aggressive gimmick to have any chance at all. That's how it was in beta before Terran mech became prevalent. It was impossible to win a macro game TvZ, especially the era of 1 supply roaches. As soon as it WAS possible for Terran to win a late game macro game versus Zerg...guess what happened? Zergs COMPLAINED. They whined it up massively. Just like now Terrans are, except it's a legitimate complaint that Terran cannot win late game vesus Zerg (similar situation versus templars late game TvP right now). So no. People need to stop making these uneducated posts about how Terrans mysteriously do not know how to play late game management games versus Zerg. It's absolutely not the case. A late game management game = Zerg Win. All of the top tier Terrans know that right now, and they play against the clock essentially every ZvT. Also, adding to what ichoic said about foxer's series game 5, and what I have said also many times in my posts about that game...kyrix played the only possible style of zerg where a terran would have a chance to win - aggro zerg. A defensive zerg style in the current patch guarantees a win in ZvT once the game has reached a certain point. Now, that is not to say that how kyrix played was bad. He actually played great, and utilized his style well. But had he transitioned from his aggro, back into the invincible defensive macro zerg, he would have guaranteed himself a victory because of how far ahead he was from his ling/baneling abuse.
What you're saying about the Foxer game is pretty much correct. But again there's nothing revealing about that; it's just the nature of TvZ.
Foxer's build was poor. He did a non-econ 111 and did basically 0 damage.
NaDa does it much better, getting his CC before the starport but in his main. He gets a better econ, still gets a fast banshee and is able to move his CC out when he's comfortable. (he also gets 2 bunkers)
The Zerg did a 2 base timing attack and got miles ahead. When Zerg gets ahead he has to pull back and macro. Incidently when Terran gets ahead they just win instantly; is that meaningful? Not really.
All this talk about "aggressive gimmick" is just hot air. That IS TvZ. Terran has to apply pressure, same in BroodWar.
The difference is in Starcraft2 the defensive power of both Terran and Zerg has been severely reduced. A long TvZ in BroodWar happens when the Terran applies pressure but can't push in. He sits on the map stopping the Zerg from taking all the expos and making his own expansions safe.
In Starcraft2 that just barely happens. Sunkens aren't as good, there's no highground advantage, there's no defilers, no lurkers, there's far less choking advantage for marines because of banelings, drop play is much easier from both sides, mutalisks are weaker and don't hold the Terran in his base.
Lots of the things that extended the game in BroodWar have been taken out, resulting in much shorter games.
Yeah I'd agree with you that SC2 is badly designed but at least it's moving in the right direction. By reducing Terrran all-ins they stabilised the early game a bit more, giving Zerg players a chance.
Unfortunately they still have a massive way to go. They need to restore the choking advantage of Terrans but make them weaker when spread out. (In BroodWar much stronger lings, but no banelings achieved this).
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On November 04 2010 03:20 eatpraylove wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:
I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up:
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow They did their figuring, that's for sure. In the tournament overall Zerg players have won more TvZ match-ups and individual games, but the best Terrans (FakeBoxeR, HopeTorture etc.) have adapted and gone through.
In tournament maybe, but that's because a lot more bad terrans qualified then bad zergs. It's so missleading to take the overall TvZ stats of the tournament when in the end terrans rule the tournament
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seems like terrans metagame develops the fastest, they always have some innovative build cooked before tournament and everybody is surprised and cought with their pants down (ie latest marauder/helion/viking drop on scrap by ITR), problem is this builds wont work twice vs the same opponent but the goal is archived T wins tournament, it doesnt solve the problem with late game in TvX because majority of torunament games end before 12 minute mark (the ones which last longer usually end with terran losing).
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EPT
