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On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
Those top Terrans happen to be :
1) Fauxer, who is an ass raping TvZ machine with the most godly marine micro we've seen so far
2) The Legendary Emperor of T in SC1, and mass rape machine here
3) ITR, HopeTorture, an excellent BW Pro in his own right who was last seasons finalist, and really would have won if he grew a pair of balls and didn't play so badly.
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On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please.
That's rich.
He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs.
Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion.
Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen?
Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts.
But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer.
In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg.
Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs.
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On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:
I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up:
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow
They did their figuring, that's for sure. In the tournament overall Zerg players have won more TvZ match-ups and individual games, but the best Terrans (FakeBoxeR, HopeTorture etc.) have adapted and gone through.
Really looking forward to seeing what NesTea and RealBoxeR bring for their match-up next round. And I have a feeling that FruitDealer's going to bring a whole new level of Zerg play to GSL 3.
Watching all the tactical evolution has been awesome.
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On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs.
Looking at the results don't always say things about imbalance. Did you see the way Check went out? He tried a 6 pool lame shit and got owned by ITR's micro. Then on scrap station he went down because of a clever timing attack with unique unit combo: vikings, marauders and hellion before any mutas are out. Conclusion: CheckPrime decided to try lame shit instead of playing a macro game that Z is heavily favored.
How did foxer beat FD? He proxy rax to kill FD before anything even come out. Next game he sent two dropships full of marines that luckily went undetected and took out hatch early in game. That is before mutas are out. Had foxer tried to play like he did against Kyrix FD would have raped him pretty badly with his ungodly macro with the Zerg race.
How did Nada do? He did a massive 2 base push when his third base got breached. That was the of of the only 2 wins of Terran that is close to a macro game so far. The other being Fauxer vs Kyrix.
Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
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yeah well the GSL matches are showing just how strong zerg is. terrans are getting proper stomped, and yes as terran its always walking a line against zerg. zerg in sc2 marcos even harder than zerg in BW.
main problem is the terran cant afford to lose his army while the zerg can. that always screws the terran.
Shhshhhh...
quarters --> 3 T and one Z
T proper stomped by Z sounds a bit much...
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Looking at the results don't always say things about imbalance. Did you see the way Check went out? He tried a 6 pool lame shit and got owned by ITR's micro. Then on scrap station he went down because of a clever timing attack with unique unit combo: vikings, marauders and hellion before any mutas are out. Conclusion: CheckPrime decided to try lame shit instead of playing a macro game that Z is heavily favored. How did foxer beat FD? He proxy rax to kill FD before anything even come out. Next game he sent two dropships full of marines that luckily went undetected and took out hatch early in game. That is before mutas are out. Had foxer tried to play like he did against Kyrix FD would have raped him pretty badly with his ungodly macro with the Zerg race. How did Nada do? He did a massive 2 base push when his third base got breached. That was the of of the only 2 wins of Terran that is close to a macro game so far. The other being Fauxer vs Kyrix. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
Holy shit. A poster that actually constructs logical thoughts instead of fanboi thoughts. Thank you for actually analyzing the games instead of spouting out bullshit.
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think.
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not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them?
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Against good macro zergs I find Nada's words to be spot on. In SC2 right now Terran has to keep up with zerg in number of expos. The production capability from larvae spawn is pretty good. I have had so many games where if I was down an expo, even if I did significant damage to zerg (killed all drones at an expo and 80% of his army while losing most my units), it doesn't do much. I prepare for a second timing push for a killing blow or take an expo and next thing I know there are a gazillion roaches and mutas in my face.
When zerg can make 10+ drones in one production round, mid game harass and less then crippling timing pushes just don't cut it. The only answer that works is relentless aggression (foxer style) or a very strong push that kills zerg outright or finishes of his main (i.e., kill off his tech) anything short and terran is effed for the rest of the game unless zerg messes up big time.
Also rax fe builds are not very good. Good zergs double expand and by the time your expo is up and running, there is no way terran can keep up with 3-4 hatch plus spawn larvae.
I am not going to cry imba but I do think that Terrans need to step back and take a long hard look at TvZ to come up with some good strats because as zerg's figure out this matchup more it will become much more difficult.
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On November 04 2010 04:50 SikLyric wrote:
not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them?
Check = professional War3 right?
FD = professional starcraft player
IdrA = B team SC1 pro who came SOOOOOO close to beating stork... twice (I think it was stork...)
Zenio = also a former pro
kyrix = i don't know
None of the people are scrubs. It certainly SEEMS like terran have to outplay the zergs right now (I say that as a diehard zerg).
Also boxer is complaining a lot, and I respect his imput.
It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony.
Still 3 terrans in the top 4 is tough to do (not impossible) if terran is under powered.
Too close to call in my honest opinion. All I can say is I DO NOT think zerg is UP vs terran lol
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On November 04 2010 04:48 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think.
This post does wonder to your credibility. If you have any reasons at all to disagree please state them. I thought for someone with more than 4000 posts you can do better than this. I guess I should not be surprised that you reach such a high post count if all your posts are one liner like this.
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On November 04 2010 04:59 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:50 SikLyric wrote:
not to mention that the 3 Terran in the top 4 are former well known PROFESSIONAL bw players, you think idra, check, kyrix,FD, zenio can top them? Check = professional War3 right? FD = professional starcraft player IdrA = B team SC1 pro who came SOOOOOO close to beating stork... twice (I think it was stork...) Zenio = also a former pro kyrix = i don't know None of the people are scrubs. It certainly SEEMS like terran have to outplay the zergs right now (I say that as a diehard zerg). Also boxer is complaining a lot, and I respect his imput. It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony. Still 3 terrans in the top 4 is tough to do (not impossible) if terran is under powered. Too close to call in my honest opinion. All I can say is I DO NOT think zerg is UP vs terran lol
most pro war3 players have struggled in GSL (almost all of werra clan)
if I asked you who ITR, boxer, and nada where prior to sc2, you would have known them
doubtful about zenio(he's a former pro?) FD aka Cool
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On November 04 2010 04:59 Beef Noodles wrote:
It is ironic that my fellow zergs were yelling that FD's success cannot prove zerg is balanced and now the coin has flipped and we are calling Terrans to look at GSL results... oh sweet irony.
LOL what i Have been trying to say
I didnt think zerg was UP pre patch. just look at fruit dealer we won GSL 1 and on his way, he took out some of the best terrans at the time. But all zerg whining worked. wats wrong if terran whines a bit? seriously....
and going back to the discussion.
Ya Check was dumb for trying to cheese while FD's style was thoroughly studied by Foxer to find his weaknesses (no1 has a perfect game).
Look at wat happened to MakaPrime. He didnt play poorly, he is a good player but got roflstomped by thewind. All depends on the player
I still think the game is quite balanced at the pro level but in the 2000 diamond level. it is dam hard to beat zergs
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On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:
Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far.
Read the interview of David Kim. They are looking at the games to balance not at the results.
Perhaps the end result of TvZ evolution with pre-macro, pre-infestor styles is a mirror of TvP of "Terran wins early game, lose late game." Its not like Zerg starts with 4 bases with speed lord dropping ultras on a map of creep.
If you want to turn over a blizz balance attempt, try the BC nerf and the tank nerf, not the "Terran early game isn't imba enough and we need 5RR option" patch.
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On November 04 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 04:48 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 03:46 positron. wrote:On November 04 2010 02:47 Klive5ive wrote:On November 04 2010 02:16 avilo wrote:On November 04 2010 00:32 Geo.Rion wrote:On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do. yeah the 3 Terrans in the top4 just ended up there somehow Terrans had the most representation in the tournament. Think rationally please. That's rich. He is thinking rationally. You can't say "the top Terrans have got some figuring to do", when the top Terrans have beaten the top Zergs. Foxer beat Fruitdealer and Kyrix to get here, ITR beat CheckPrime. Ok so Boxer hasn't beaten a Zerg yet but NaDa did in convincing fashion. Let's say Terran was overpowered pre-patch and then equal post-patch; what would you expect to happen? Well, you'd expect Terrans players to lose a lot more in the Ro64 and Ro32 since they weren't as skilled as their Zerg counterparts. But once you got to the Ro16 and Ro8 you would expect it to equal out as skill level got closer. In the Ro16 Terran went 2-1 against Zerg and in the Ro8 Terran went 1-0 against Zerg. Conclusion: The "top" Terrans can play against "top "Zergs. Can you see the underlining theme? Terran has to win early or they would lose in the long run. They have to abuse their early game advantage to win or risk getting overrun later. Terran has advantage only in the early game. Why do many of them make it to the round of 4? I guess it is hard for you to understand but actually EARLY game occurs BEFORE late game that is why many Terrans make it this far. Please continue arguing with an imaginary man who thinks exactly what you want them to think. This post does wonder to your credibility. If you have any reasons at all to disagree please state them. I thought for someone with more than 4000 posts you can do better than this. I guess I should not be surprised that you reach such a high post count if all your posts are one liner like this.
I got this many posts by not trolling; like you're doing right now.
You were arguing against a position I didn't take.
All I said was that the results do not support this idea that top Terran players can't beat top Zergs.
You talked about Terran having to apply pressure. Yes, correct, that is the essential nature of the matchup. The onus is on the Terran player to force the Zerg into making units and expending larvae and resources on defence.
That IS TvZ, that's the beauty of it.
The steady, slow building, econ of the Terran; versus the explosive and volatile econ of the Zerg.
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People need to stop citing this '3 terrans and 1 zerg in the semi-finals' deal. If you want a meaningful statistic, look at every TvZ matchup, tally up who won each, and compare the advancement rate.
You're going to end up with 3t 1z regardless of balance if there are way more Terrans entering and then half the zergs try to sixpool you or baneling bust you 5 games in a row.
Anyway, it is a bit more balanced at the GSL-level of skill because Terran players have the mechanics to split their marines up nearly instantaneously. When you're playing with someone across the country or even across a continent and you have significant delay and don't have foxer-levels of APM, the matchup sort of feels like hell, at least for me.
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Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be.
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On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be.
You can't really make anything of Foxer 'beating' Kyrix (edited to fix typo). He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series.
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On November 04 2010 08:40 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 08:37 fusihunter wrote:
Where does it become about balance and not about talent though. Watching Foxer beat Kyrix ( late game). Showed the same kind of micro we saw from FD in the first GSL. His Marine spread and tank placement countered the " hard counter" of his army. Much like FD was smashing drops, and fungal growthing anything that could hit his muta/banelings. Personally i think that game is so marginally imbalanced ( at the moment) if at all, that it is negligible to the results.
I'm sure the game has more than a few tweaks to consider but i don't think at this point it's really as one sided as everyone makes it out to be. You can't really make anything of Kyrix 'beating' Foxer. He had g5 in the bag and threw it away completely. Had he been nearly as skilled as his opponent at that point, it would have been over and your entire post would sound very differently. When FD was going crazy, he straight-up dominated ITR. When Foxer was going crazy, he was managing to barely stay afloat (and should have lost) against an opponent of lesser skill. If Kyrix had not played game 5 atrociously and had closed Foxer out, we would have just seen a game where the player who played worse won the series.
In what ways did balance effect that game?
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Wait, Fruit Dealer winning the GSL last season didn't mean Zerg weren't UP, so why are Zerg players pointing at the GSL for proof Terran aren't UP?
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EPT
