EPTOn November 02 2010 07:17 MrLonely wrote:
From the formatting to the actual content, this is probably the worst post I've read on these forums.
You can't take each thing and compare it to your race's equivalent. ZERG CAN MAKE ALL THEIR UNITS FROM THEIR HATCHERIES SO IMBALANCED BOOHOOO!! Jesus...
Terran have been buffed EVERY SINGLE patch except the last one, and Zerg/Protoss nerfed EVERY SINGLE patch, and suddenly you're acting like Terran have been shafted right from the start. I really, really hate you.
(And you're seriously complaining about mules?)
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2010 06:37 KaiserGL wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thors are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
+ Show Spoiler +
This has been bothering me for a while... and keep in mind this is all
speculation on my part. I just would like to see what sort of response
this topic receives.
Zerg is completely overpowered. They were always good even before the
recent patches but because so many unskilled zerg players cried so much
about how overpowered terran was. Admittedly terran were too strong at
the start. Were the extreme nerfs to them not enough? Is anyone else upset by
the fact that zerg has been given so much attention when they were never a bad
race to start with? I feel as if Zerg has the strongest recon, greatest
mobility, easiest expansion denial, supreme map control, easiest harass,
cheapest/strongest siege units
Has nobody noticed that roaches are completely
ridiculous? I thought the whole idea behind roaches was to use burrow micro.
The short range was the only reason it was fair to give them such a powerful
unit for so little tech/resources. Reaper harass is eliminated, stalkers can no
longer compete, surrounds are no longer required, marines get roflstomped,
tanks get sniped much faster and do much worse overall, cannons/bunkers
arent even useful behind walls at choke points since roaches can all attack by
simply moving up the ramp and focus firing. The hydralisk is no longer
required for added dps(except vs air) so now zerg can add banelings/speedlings
/mutas to their army instead and destroy anything that may give roaches a problem.
Mutalisks are so fast that zerg harass is practically free and completely safe.
With zergs recon, anything travelling without an army can be immediately picked
off and the mutas will still have time to get back home before you have a chance to
damage them too badly. Terran makes reapers/helions/banshees/vikings/medivacs to
harrass and all are covered by mutalisks so simply teching toward mutas allows u to...
-scout
-harass
-contain
-defend
-do free damage
-expand anywhere
-force money to be spent on anti air->giving zerg an even bigger econ lead
-deny scouting
-add splash damage to your army
-counterattack before enemy reaches you with army
So anything I get that goes in the air will be dead as soon as its not with my army
and the only solution is to make units that suck against speedling/baneling/roaches
or turtle up and timing push with my fingers crossed.
Lets take a look at banelings
-evolved from zerglings which you get anyway
-destroys buildings instantly which must be rebuilt(more free damage)
-can explode while burrowed
-no friendly fire for some reason
-have speed upgrade
-tier 1 tech
-can instantly destroy planetary fortress
A good way to counter banelings is by using thors to soak up the dmg, siege tanks to blast them from afar, and spread ur army when theyre close. It's only a shame that every single one of these things is hard countered by fungal growth and neural parasite which happen to both be on the same unit; a unit which can basically cloak itself without researching a specific unit upgrade. There's no real downside to getting infestors, they wont weaken your army since they make flanks easier, and the infestor is the only spellcasting unit zerg really has. Theres even less micro involved in using them than any other spellcaster. They actually have an area of effect, damage over time, movement disabler----all in one. Even though all zerg really needs is to surround you to destroy you, they figured they would tack on some damage over time while they were at it which serves a double purpose when it wastes your medivacs energy over and over for free.
They also take control of the strongest units in ur enemies army so theres some more free damage. You build a unit that your entire army depends on like thor/collosus, and all of the money and research you put into it is used against you to destroy your units for the duration of combat? Come on. Yes you can snipe them if you have enough gas to support ghosts along with your mandatory siege tanks/medivacs/ravens/thors/researches required to give the necessary upgrades to the units u have to make on top of those units for support. Even if you manage to snipe or emp them, they probably already got off a fungal or parasite and rolled over you with banelings.
Lets look at the supply structures/units of each race
supply depot-100 minerals, can be raised or lowered(either way its visible) can have
extra supplies attached if you want to sacrifice a the 270+ minerals ud gather with
a mule or the crucial intel u need to gather w/ scan for the 100 minerals a depot costs
Pylon-
-warped in without any hinderance to probe
-can be used as a warp point for your warp gates
-required to power structures
Overlord-
-immediate air unit
-early scout, sometimes allows you to keep drone scout at home for more money
-can be upgraded with speed making it a better scout
-can be upgraded with transport making it another free aspect of zerg
-can be used to make banelings more effective and do guaranteed damage
-provide intel of the entire map relatively early in the game
-can spawn creep to deny expos, place buildings/creep tumors(with queen), increase unit speed, build highways for your units to move faster
-cost the same amount as the other 2 races supply building
-can be morphed into overseer which is faster/more durable/halts unit production/gathers free intel, applies pressure to opponent, detects invisible units, and can use changelings for meat shields
How about the economic boosters of each race?
Orbital Command
-Produce mule every 50 energy(basically this is the one you have to use to keep up)
or
-scan a small area and hope to gather the intel that zerg gets free of charge
-extra supplies in case you suck and get supply blocked
Nexus
-Chrono boost and speed up the completion time of anything you're building
-variety of uses, but must be used on many other things besides economy boosting
Queen
-produced from hatchery for 150 minerals
-provides early anti air
-provides some basic defense
-can heal other units
-allows zerg to produce several units from very few hatcheries
-can be used to block ramps in some instances when standing alone
-spawns creep tumors which grant your units more speed, map vision, and each tumor spawned can produce another tumor so all energy can go to larva production pretty much exclusively
-moves slow if not on creep
-can make as many as you want for 150 per whereas the nexus costs 400 and the orbital command costs 550
Don't really know how this balances out either
Broodlords/corruptors have clear uses and can be extremely effective in several situations. BCS(which also got nerfed even though nobody knew how to use them yet) just never seem to be practical at all, and neither do carriers. So why are BCS/Carriers even part of the game? If repair gets nerfed as they are considering, this will make bcs even worse as well. But still the terran players are remaining silent and zerg is still crying about terran op whenever they lose.
Now lets look at spine crawlers
-defensive structure
-only mobile defensive structure allowing you to build in safe area and move them as needed
or
defend and use your defense as part of your offense so that none of the money you put toward preventing harrass takes away from your army strength
-greater range than bunker/cannon
Finally, lets compare the production buildings....
Terran usually is going to need to use all of their production buildings to be effective, that means on top of your main buildings and supply depots and whatever defense you probably had to put up to cope with muta harrass, you need
at least a few barracks, probably a factory or two, and depending on what you are going for, you will need at least 1 starport. After getting the required structure you must then begin producing your army as soon as possible and allow
your opponent to counter your army composition by sending a guaranteed recon unit to your base as early as they want.
Protoss must upgrade their gateways to warp gates and spend a ton of gas getting key support units which can easily be picked off by good players, they also need to share the same building to make their recon, immortals, and collosus.
which means they will have to choose whichever they need most and sacrifice the other two for a while
Zerg gets to pile up larva on their hatcheries and store up resources until they need units. The fact that they dont have to continually produce units means they can continually produce 20x the amount of gatherers that other races could have until they see you preparing to attack. The building they gather from is the same as the building they make every unit from and the building they evolve their main tech path from, allowing them to spend far less on their base and far more on their troops/upgrades, you dont see terran/toss researching 20 upgrades at once like zerg so often does mid-late game, so zerg gets all of their tech the fastest. This also allows them to change their army
composition immediately based on whatever theyre up against, so theres less chance of making bad decisions and having to stick to them.
Terran has gotten shafted so incredibly hard in the last few patches and it
seems like nobody is making a very big deal out of it. I know that Blizzard
is looking into the tvp matchup since protoss seem to have the edge in high
level play; however, I was greatly annoyed to heard that the way this is to be corrected
is by nerfing psionic storm. This will do nothing for terran other than make
MMM an even more common strategy than it already is and make will probably
end up resulting in another terran nerf(stim pack or emp most likely)
Reapers have been reduced to scouting units. The nerfs to them have not only taken
another terran unit almost entirely out of play, but it has allowed zerg to fast expand on just about any map and defend anything terran throws at it just in time
Thor size is going to keep getting smaller and repair is being considered for nerfing because apparently its unfair to use ur gatherers and the money you gathered to heal hp on a giant slow unit that can easily be removed from battle via neural parasite. Unless you have lots of them, mutas still destroy them easily by simply moving over top of them and pressing H. Why is the splash damage on thors so crappy that u can only hit 1 muta at a time if they click the mouse and press 1 key? Thors are becoming more and more useless, and they are basically the only thing that can handle mutalisk masses
It must not be fair that your units that would otherwise be gathering vital resources can be used instead to heal a single unit. Not to mention that that single unit required depot/rax/refinery/factory/armory/starport/300minerals/200gas/medivac/heavy micro and locks you
into a mech build with very little defense and no answer to infestors. Kinda hard to beat a giant zerg army with a squad of thors that can't be repaired fast enough to fulfill their purpose. Terran mech is laughable right now minus the helion which will probably get nerfed sooner or later anyway
Tank nerf made them significantly worse, suddenly siege tanks in siege mode are almost too weak to be viable.They don't have the damage output necessary to combat armored units because their rate of fire is very slow and they need to be sieged up to be useful. Too bad they can be taken over by infestors as well, or lifted up by phoenixes. Doesn't help that their damage is so pathetic now, most ground units can walk right up to them and tank the damage before focus firing and sending them to the abyss. You have to support tanks with marines which are useless against roaches unlses you have a point defense drone.
Furthermore, the nerf to medivac speed greatly reduces terrans ability to mobilize since they will
almost always be spotted before they reach their destination, cannot land safely since units are right under them waiting and medivac unloads so slow, and you will not be able to retreat
in time if mutas are after them.
Both
zerg and protoss are able to deal with harass while their army is out by
instantly summoning whatever units they need to the location under attack,
Toss will share terrans weakness against zerg if they nerf storm because you will no longer be able to call stormers to defend your base if needed
The matchup will become even harder as toss will become more reliant on collosus
which in turn will lower protoss mobility and zerg will be granted even
greater map control. You could use warp prisms but again mutalisks would pick them off easily, and you could try a mothership if you're feeling really bold but thats just grasping at straws.
I may big making mountains out of molehills, but I am seriously annoyed with zerg right now, and the only thing terran has to look forward to is more nerfs from the looks of it. I don't think terran should have to suffer so much just because some of koreas best players (who were also superb sc1 players) have been managing to make it work out for them. It doesn't even look much more plausible even with the worlds best rine splitting micro, as foxer barely pulled through versus waves and waves of banelings charging in effortlessly. Seriously, this is getting to be absurd. Blizzard has corrected a balance issue by moving the problem to other races.
From the formatting to the actual content, this is probably the worst post I've read on these forums.
You can't take each thing and compare it to your race's equivalent. ZERG CAN MAKE ALL THEIR UNITS FROM THEIR HATCHERIES SO IMBALANCED BOOHOOO!! Jesus...
Terran have been buffed EVERY SINGLE patch except the last one, and Zerg/Protoss nerfed EVERY SINGLE patch, and suddenly you're acting like Terran have been shafted right from the start. I really, really hate you.
(And you're seriously complaining about mules?)
Lol you are just another typical zerg player. Terran have not received buffs every patch LMFAO, they get nerfed every single time. The things I said were no worse than any generic zerg complaint about terran a couple of months ago. Thanks for the completely unconstructive hate reply btw, You really made an impression.
I never cared about zerg being able to make everything from hatch, thats how they have always been. I was simply pointing that detail out because a lot of people like you dont even appreciate the true strengths of zerg.
