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On October 29 2010 03:32 Azzur wrote:Today's TvZ GSL games were quite action packed. + Show Spoiler [Ensnare vs Kyrix] +
Game 1: Convincing early bunker/marine pressure, and forces drones to be pulled. Even though it was fended off, I think it did reasonable damage and the Terran was ahead. This type of build seems to be quite successful (also see FakeBoxer vs FruitDealer, game 1).
Game 2: Zerg ninja expand sees them outmacro the Terran in the critical midgame/endgame battles. Lesson: Scout for those expands!
Game 3: I didn't understand Ensnare's play for his early poke. He knew the Zerg was one-basing and he did do reasonable damage (killed lings/overlords) with his early poke. He should've retreated and I believed he would've won as he would've fended the mutas off very easily. Since the zerg was 1-basing, Ensnare should have expected reasonable number of units? Even then, after taking his 2nd, his timing attack was almost successful and it was the drones that swung the battle.
Game 1: ITR > 6 pool.
Game 2: ITR gets around 6 vikings (probably suspected mutas) and kills overlords. Does this brilliant timing drop (and landed his vikings) to kill the Zerg natural. After that, he went for the kill (a drop) and came through. Although I believed he should've probably just played safe off 2-bases. Great drop to try against a 2-base muta build (esp in Scrap Station, we'll expect the Zerg's to pretty much play that way).
Game 1: Don't piss off the Genius Terran with a 6-pool and force him to take off his jacket. It'll cost you in games 2 and 3.
Game 2: Cross positions on Shakuras Temple (a large map). Goes thor/helion/marine vs muta/bling/ling. So happy to witness this as I believe this build is strongest against the muta/bling/ling. Watch for awesome macro and a Terran taking a third base.
Game 3: Marine/tank build for a 2-base timing attack. Once again, we see that single banshee. That single banshee seems to be very popular in TvZ play. It seems the pros favour marine/tank in smaller maps.
As manny stated before, wait untill a decent terran player face thouse "imba-OP" zergs, then start to get conclussion... Of course patch helped zerg a lot, of course that mediocre terran that use to do "ok" vs zerg, will be crushed badly after patch... But, when the big names come along, the best player won (and not the one with the "OP Race"), the only exception could be Kyrix, but i think he is underrated, he probe to be really really good (need a lot of work on him micro tho), so overall i think, the patch did a good job balancing the game, wich isnt over yet, there is a lot of work still needed.
For example, i like that terran cant make early reapers crush to win (or almost) the game, but i hate that there is a unit on the game thats now is only good for make a scout, and only on some matches... I think it need to be re-worked so it still usefull on mid/late game.
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On October 28 2010 22:32 Alphasquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:07 positron. wrote:
TvZ nowadays is a joke really. Whoever thought of that game breaking units of banellings should be ashamed of themselves. Give Terran the goliaths back so at least they can mass goliaths and go mech. and what would zerg do without banelings - nothing would beat bio with medivac
The way things are blings need to be in the game to stop bio but there is something that needs to be done about that unit or something needs to be done to make mech more viable for Terran like goliaths addition for example (not realistic at this point just saying). I love game 2 in Nada series but you can't expect many people to be on his level in macro. Plus that map has a pretty close third and there was no gas steal so he could put down those two factories after the 1st rax. He would have had a hard time doing that build on metalopolis for example.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nada's game 3 win told us nothing new. Just a good attack with tanks and marines. People would fail more often that not doing that marine split while the Z only need to right click blings to the marines. I had no idea why that 6 pooler did not get off any fungal growth he threw his infestors out to die. He had a real chance of holding.
Game 1 of ITR is just good defending. Game 2 is a clever unit combo and good timing on the attack. I don't think this would be a standard.
Kyris lost quite a few mutas in both of his wins but won anyway due to blings. Game 1 Kyrix used a weird build and tech way too late so he lost and when he settled down and played like normal he took out Ensnare. Both of them are about equal in skills.
None of Terran's win is macro game other than game 2 of Nada series. I would think anybody with an incentive to invent strategy it would be these koreans progamers but so far I am disappointed. I hope somebody come up with strategy that requires no gimmicky harass, early timing push to win and is reproducible at the lower level .
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Agreed^
For the time being it looks like these terrans in the GSL are just entirely avoiding the macro game and going for quick game enders. Game 2 for Nada made the macro strategy work due to the close third and map length. I would however like to see how it would've held up against Kyrix going 2 base all-in. It is really difficult for the terran to scout whether or not something like this is occurring.
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Id be intrested to know the TvZ score excluding games where the terran opens hidden racks/bunker rush/ramp block..
i really can't see any kind of build like that becoming standard...
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well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it
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On October 29 2010 10:49 mati wrote:
well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it
Yea right click bling to the marines certainly requires more micro than A-click or spreading marines before hand.
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On October 27 2010 04:05 eatpraylove wrote:I counted the results up to now. Zerg are up: + Show Spoiler +
21-8 in games
9-3 in series
The top Terrans have got some figuring to do.
ty for those stats
sounds about right. glad im not too behind 
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I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
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On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
How do you think Zerg got that creep everywhere and their huge armies? That's right... very high APM. Maybe a large problem with the ZvT matchup is the large difference in required APM at any time when there is not a battle going on? Comparing APM required in-battle (which depends on soooo many different things) is no way to judge balance.
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On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules?
Zerg requires much higher average APM to play effectively than terran. Also saying all a zerg has to do is 1A and cast a few spells is rather ignorant, try playing zerg before throwing around these assumptions.
When a zerg engages, positioning is everything. If you 1a as zerg in the majority of your fights I doubt you will make it past 1k diamond. Terran does take more army micro in my opinion, but nowhere near as much as you like to think. A terran player does not have to 'plan' his engagements to anything like the extent a zerg player does.
Also, about the APM comment. Terrans can get away with <60 average APM and be 1600+ diamond. A zerg would be lucky to make it out of platinum with this kind of APM.
Seeing a terran try to argue that their race is harder to play is laughable.
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On October 29 2010 11:15 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 10:49 mati wrote:
well slayers_boxer at the end of his interview on the ro32 said something like:
(he was talking about TvP actually, but i think it could be apply for Tvz also)
I tryed to go for the macro style to beat this match many times on practice, and wasnt very good, so i decided that going for strategy was better, so i made this build (go watch his games :p)
Terran on SC2 its a very strategic race more than a brute force (protoss) or a macro oriented (zerg), im not saying terran cant do macro, or some brute heavy pushes (they can), but i think the focus should be on the strats more than anything... I dont think terran is loosing so much because of poor macro/micro, but because of poor desicion making... Not only about what composition of a army to get (wich people love to argue about on this forum), but what do you do with your units (mobility for me is THE biggest issue with terran, excepts for bioballs, but when opponents get better, bioball A-Push, or plain kiting, cease to be efective, wich i think is good for the game overall)....
Nada "micro" on game 3 today, wasnt THAT good... he got his marines spread before the battle take place, and then he only move behind the one that was being targeted (zerg must micro their blings, saying that they dont only probe you didnt play zerg very much -not trying to be rude, just realistic :p- if he just do A-Click they will all attack the siege and thats no good), while the other marines just sitting there were shooting the blings from far for minimal damage. I guess the hardest part if to keep adding marines to the group that are running behind wile the blings are coming... But again, spreading the marine early did the trick, not "ultra-sick-micro". Low level terran should be able to pull it off with out so much practice.
And Kyrix doesnt do "all in moves" he never did... Artosis some times over do it with the harras, and make many mistakes... Because he saw him rush a protoss that was really asking for it, doesnt mean he does 2 bases all in, he didnt in all his matches vs terrans (ro32 n 16). He just apply crazy amount of presion... and well, is a game style... Many terran/protoss also do it, you should be able to play against it Yea right click bling to the marines certainly requires more micro than A-click or spreading marines before hand.
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM)
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On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM)
I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument.
Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
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On October 29 2010 17:30 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 16:48 OooLaLa wrote:
I think a large problem with the TvZ match up is the large difference in required apm to manage the armies. For a terran, when engaging a bling ling muta... he has to stim, seige, pdd, micro marines from banelings, if infestors..snipe. Also throw down AT's and manage hellions flames just to be equally effective. A zerg has to Amove, make sure he doesnt click inside his magic box, and maybe throw down a few fungal growths and watch as the terran army melts to his banelings. Also, since zerg has creep everywhere and mobility, they normally get to choose where adn when the fight starts giving them that precious half second to prepare b4 the big battle. Terrans don't normally have that luxury of time, so they normally don't have a chance to do everything require to stand a chance. I understand that players like qxc/nada/ITR have great mechanics and can get this all done smoothly and efficiently, but at my lvl (1600 diamond) and lower ..the battle portion of the matchup is just way too easy for the zerg. So the state of the matchup is now this. Zerg has the advantage in macro/mobility/ease of combat and terran has....mules? Zerg requires much higher average APM to play effectively than terran. Also saying all a zerg has to do is 1A and cast a few spells is rather ignorant, try playing zerg before throwing around these assumptions. When a zerg engages, positioning is everything. If you 1a as zerg in the majority of your fights I doubt you will make it past 1k diamond. Terran does take more army micro in my opinion, but nowhere near as much as you like to think. A terran player does not have to 'plan' his engagements to anything like the extent a zerg player does. Also, about the APM comment. Terrans can get away with <60 average APM and be 1600+ diamond. A zerg would be lucky to make it out of platinum with this kind of APM. Seeing a terran try to argue that their race is harder to play is laughable.
I agree the Zerg requires higher APM to play but saying Terran don't need to plan engagement is really dumb. Both sides need position. Terran don't where to siege the tanks it is gonna end up really bad. What would you call Nada's siege position and spreading of marines before the battle is if not planning?
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On October 27 2010 13:58 mGMUSE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:44 RifleCow wrote:On October 27 2010 13:37 mGMUSE wrote:
it was extremely painful to watch the maka and mvp going marine/tanks in all their games only to get rolled over. why do they stick to marine tank throughout the game? marines cant fend off mutas harass properly, even if you stim everytime you see mutas going into your base. a thor set at one mineral line can fend off any mutas harass with scvs repairing.
mechplay is 3x better than rines/tanks imo, the only reason i can think of for pros going marines/tank is to stop that 'fruitdealer' type of play where you can use dropships to drop onto the zerg's 3rd/4th/5th as mechplay cannot do that(immobility).
someone enlighten me as to why the pros insist on going rines/tanks? Lack of mobility. If you go mech you can't move out without zerg counter attacking into your main. Killing your production then cleaning up your army because of the lack of reinforcements. Additionally, due to the slowness of your army zerg is free to build countless expos because it takes forever for the terran to get from one expo to the next. So, in the ned its like 5 base zerg vs 2 base terran. Really, terrans should try to match zergs production rate with reactored production facilities. Mass marines worked in BW despite all sort of marine killing units that zerg could pull out, since a terran could produce the same rate as a zerg. Maybe terrans should try something similar? I don't think rines/tank can handle the counter-attacks well either. I mean, if you push out you shouldn't ever need to turn back or you'll be at the disadvantage. Furthermore rines are limited by tanks' speed which makes them pretty immobile too. What I do to prevent counterattacks is to leave 2 tanks, 2 hellions at my natural(which is walled off with buildings). Also 1 thor at each mineral line throughout the game. I haven't really encountered any real counterattacks though, usually just speedlings trying to stream into my base(which hellions take care of). I mean, if they decide to avoid your army and push into your base with his whole army, all you need to do is to walk over to his main and kill off all tech structures and trade bases with him. He wont be able to re-produce after that and we all know theres no way zerg can beat a 200/200 terran mech army...
Apparantly just mass roaches destroy Mech nowaydays since +1 range.. -.-
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On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about.
You say it like if the game goes on longer ITR or NaDa would've lost. I'm not sure if that's true. Those games show that T can kill Z with a well executed timing attack, that's all.
What makes you think T can't compete in a macro game?
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Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
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On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine :
1)EB Zerg FE delay success.
2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers.
3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen.
While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140.
In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
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On October 30 2010 10:42 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine : 1)EB Zerg FE delay success. 2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers. 3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen. While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140. In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
Morrow switched and I died a little bit inside. the days of skill in sc are over it seems as every game is Make collosi GG or make ultralisk GG and terran has... uum.... what???
Early cheese that more often that not fails..... and we cant keep up with macro vs them...
Oh well I just get upset when I lose to a zerg who has horrible unit control horrible apm horrible desision making and can just roll me because he can take however many bases he wants to.
And I hate losing to toss who just mass collosi in their base and I make one mistake in micro or get caught out of PERFECT position We cannot ALL be QXC and NADA and BOXER and its sad when I see QXC saying he doesnt know how to deal with collosi either.
dont switch man Take pride that your part of the only race that requires thought in matchups and not just blind tech rushing to your "win button" unit. When they do balance it you will dominate .
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On October 30 2010 06:37 Penetrates wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:01 positron. wrote:On October 29 2010 18:22 mati wrote:
if zergs manage to kill all you army by clicking on the marine only, sir your micro sucks badly (sorry but its true), im at low diamond and my opponents almost always manage to not letting just "click on unit" or "a click" to do the trick... I have to manually move them by following around, and spliting when marine also split so not every single blings die to just a 1/5 of the marine army... Unless you are fighting zerg on creep... and why would you do that?! >.<... Scan/Raven kill tumor, no more creep.. Beside borrowed blings will become more and more popular, so it will be a must to be able to detect.
Play zerg for some games vs a decent terran, then come to argue about how easy is it...
@OooLaLa
Check APM on your replays... Im almost always getting way more than my terran opponents (and im no good), injection, macro mechanic, positioning, continuos scouting (wish we could do just a scan), multitasking, counter attack... Zerg speed isnt a advantage if you dont use (with lot of APM) I am not gonna say much about this except that maybe you should play Terran and try to deal with the bling yourself. There is a reason why all TvZ end with Terran rushing to win. If you want to know more why this match up is no where as balanced as you think it is then read the entire thread then form some argument. Please don't even cite those wins in TvZ of Nada and ITR as an example of how decent Terran can deal with Zerg. It is not about winning it is about the way they win. If you think one race has to end game early with timing push is balance then you really have no idea what you are talking about. You say it like if the game goes on longer ITR or NaDa would've lost. I'm not sure if that's true. Those games show that T can kill Z with a well executed timing attack, that's all. What makes you think T can't compete in a macro game?
Of course nobody is stupid enough to say that it is impossible for T to win a macro game because it is still early to say that. However have you seen any Terran beat Zerg in a macro game (2+ bases for T and 3+ bases for Z)? I haven't seen that in the GSL. Game 2 of Nada is amazing but I don't think many people can compete with Nada in macro. That game was extremely close though. Leenock finally breached the third base and Nada abandoned it to go for a doom attack. Other than that game 2 you will see all the games end early with Terran pushing before mutas ling bling reach a big number. I am waiting to see a Terran show me the way to play TvZ macro but have not seen it.
Btw I saw Tarson took down some Zerg in the Craftcup using the exact same strat ITR used on scrap station. Very entertaining :D. He did it twice I think. I guess from now on every TvZ on scrap station will be an auto win for Tarson.
Some guy post above me said that he split up bling to hit marines when marines split. Has anyone seen that in pro play? Please correct me if I am wrong but I think even pro players just shift click the bling and control his other units instead.
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On October 30 2010 10:42 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:44 xSuperflyTnT wrote:
Guys honestly When it wasnt easy for zerg to win they cried and whined until there was a patch I find it very uplifting to see terrans not whining about imba and just trying to discuss what is obviously a problem.
I mean come on the kid that played nada wasnt anywhere NEAR nadas level of play... he 6 pooled him ffs.... then nada schooled him like the nub he was.
A mediocre zerg who knows how to stop the early pushes will beat a much better terran player by just macroing out craploads of hard counters... dont try to argue with them its pointless zerg players so far as I have seen are the most biased players about their race. I can look and say "yeah reapers are a little imba they should fix that" or " yeah my marauders are a bit to strong vs buildings" but you propose to a zerg that ANY of their units are to powerful for the cost *cough roach cough* and you get slammed with an hour of them quoting the same overdone crap about fruitdealer and nada vs that noob and any other random comments like 'zomg make tanks" ok tanks SUCK vs basically everything now I have had 10 YES I SAID TEN siege tanks die to roaches Roaches kill basically everything and for their cost are way to powerful
What bugs me is this,,, " fruitdealer won even with a UP race because he is sooooooo goood" Random zerg
"Terran only wins because they are op..."
"if I dont autowin vs terran its obviously imba"
Terrans dont want an auto win ... They just want a fair game and right now as it stands our army is pathetic when matched against zerg. I would be perfectly happy if we both lost our armies completley in a battle but when terran loses everything and zerg still has 50% of his army... come on.....
Terran army rolls out of base terran army gets killed by right click banelings ( if you dont believe me or listen to the zerg saying its more than that watch some replays of idra or anyone from their view they select banelings click past the terran army and grab their other units 99% of the time.)
Then terran spends a great deal of time trying to recover from that loss while Zerg is up instantly and taking an expansion.
Zerg if you lose to terran he is basically a FAR better player than you are and you are way above where you should be because of your advantage im sorry but its true.
Stop telling us how to play our race if you think its so easy Pick up terran and play vs zerg I'm so tired of you telling us how to play when you make 3 unit comps and roll us while we have to have 5 to 6 sometimes 7 different unit types and micro them all perfectly
Sorry but I'm not impressed with the ability to fungal growth / a move your army and then sit back magic boxing Whitch consists of right clicking and hitting H or S when they get into position
And roaches are laughable 2 shotting thors and one shotting tanks without even worrying about losses because they are virtually free to make.
Man I'll be glad when blizzard nerfs you guys back and balances this game again half the zerg will quit playing and thats fine by me.
As 1900 points Diamond Terran I agree with everything here. Siege tanks no longer are good in my opinion (unless sick timing pushes with bio tanks which are more likely not to happen). The only good build I see is Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marine or Thors/Hellions/Raven/Banshee/Marauders. First goes for muta and second should counter roaches, but... You lose badly. I can win game with this kind of push if mine : 1)EB Zerg FE delay success. 2)Hellion pressure does some damage and forces him to make additional spine crawlers. 3)Banshee harass does quite a damage and forces him to get fourth queen. While macroing with FE I still harass AS MUCH AS I CAN. And if the first 120 supply timing push fails, its gg. And it's more likely to fail against mass roaches. And it pisses me off to lose to zerg whose APM is 70 while your's is about 130-140. In my eyes, Terrans are broken now. No macro game left for them. Now they are not only fighting races but the game time as well... If it continues to be like this for few more months, I will switch my race...
Uhm you use a similar build to what i use and say you can't win ? 
I agree if the harass fails, the push will also fail. So you do an EB as well, i was working on changing my early harass which is still 4 helions, i realize i need a earlier harass, and building an EB doesn't do that much. More micro intensive bunker rushes might work better. Vote out long maps like scrap station and it should work. I get matched vs 1500 zergs so not at 1900 yet, but the helion into banshee harass generally does force the zerg to make units and spine crawlers while killing a few lings/drones/queens in the process. Also with this build you can switch from thor/marine/banshee to thor/marauder/banshee or tank/marine/raven without having to build anything. Or do like nada and push at 3 bases while building a 4th :D
GSL showed us some pretty good TvZ's, i agree it still needs some work balance-wise because a good zerg will fend off all harass without overreacting, but i saw some really fast expand from Foxer for example, while still being able to pressure early, that delays the zerg macro advantage.
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EPT
