EPTAnyways help me out!
Replay links:
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[D] ZvZ 16 Hatch 15 Pool
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
Anyways help me out! Replay links: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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CHOChi
Germany73 Posts
dont really get what you want to hear at stopping the 16 hatch build.. well some cheese may stop it i guess.. | ||
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On October 25 2010 06:51 CHOChi wrote: i've been doing 14 hatch 14 pool and it works pretty well for me, but 16 hatch is clearly the better economy build dont really get what you want to hear at stopping the 16 hatch build.. well some cheese may stop it i guess.. Not really, any ling bling can pop the hatch. When i roll a zvz, i see alot of blind hatch first builds, and I have recently learned that sling/bling with decent micro can at least kill the hatch. Even in worst possible cases(cross map metal late scout) | ||
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shmoo
United States139 Posts
When you play against high level opponents, the odds of cheese diminishes greatly so you see these greedy macro oriented openings more often. Its very hard to stop a good timing push in zvz when you fe and the opponent 1 bases. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
I scout at 9, and if my opponent did an early pool, I go 13/14 pool or whenever I scout it. If my opponent went standard 13 or 14 pool, I go 15 hatch. If they are going hatch first, I block the hatch with my scouting drone. | ||
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ZomgTossRush
United States1041 Posts
On October 25 2010 07:09 Dromar wrote: This is my standard (almost). I scout at 9, and if my opponent did an early pool, I go 13/14 pool or whenever I scout it. If my opponent went standard 13 or 14 pool, I go 15 hatch. If they are going hatch first, I block the hatch with my scouting drone. What if they went like a 14/13 gas/pool build? How in the world can you hold off sling/bling? I imagine you could even cut the speed and get faster blings. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
I think the reason the pros get away with it is sling/bling play could be seen as all in if you don't kill lots of drones or the hatch. | ||
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Zecias
United States116 Posts
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Synk
United States297 Posts
Roaches also lose to speedlings, which has neted me a shitload of wins since the last patch because people think 1 range is going to change that. If I see roaches sometimes I will slow the game down and get 1 ups for my lings but, it really isn't required imo .. but helps if you have to break through a choke. I'm not sure how this MU can be fixed really, but its crazy retarded right now and I don't see it changing anytime soon. PS I have like an 80% zvz winrate this month so .. yea (not sure if there is a way to verify this besides picking through match history but im pretty sure its around that ) | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On October 25 2010 07:13 zomgtossrush wrote: What if they went like a 14/13 gas/pool build? How in the world can you hold off sling/bling? I imagine you could even cut the speed and get faster blings. So far, I've been reasonably successful, but I can't say I've played very good opponents. That said, I haven't really refined it much myself, so I wasn't playing very well either. If/when I run into something I can't handle with a hatch first build, I'll post again in this thread. will post some replays once I figure out how to do so. edit: ok what's the good site to upload sc2 replays to? | ||
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dave333
United States915 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/?3fafttxc06g4w55 | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
One obviously is the fact that your pool will be later. But this isn't that much of a bother, as you can get lings out soon enough if he 14gas14 pooled. Another is you're delaying your queen, thus you lose inevitable larva when under pressure. The hatchery does produce larva, but not enough against a Sling/Bling build. Thirdly, it is actually detrimental to your economy early on. Let that sink into you for a little bit. =>DETRIMENTAL<=. The reasoning behind this is that unlike your opponent, you invested 300 minerals in a hatchery that has yet to pay for itself. Your opponent on the other hand has had that money to drone up a bit more than you. He will have a better economy than the FE player in that timeframe. You had to cut drone production while you were planting that hatch and waiting for the minerals for the spawning pool. Meanwhile he used that money on a few extra drones. I've experimented with 14 hatch 14 pool on shakuras plateau cross positions, and it didn't work. I had the banelings nest, I had the zerglings. But I could not hold onto the hatchery. You don't need that hatchery that early. Expanding at about 25 is safer and has less of a chance to fail, while having a better economy. You never want to sacrifice economy early, especially not in ZvZ. ( Unless you're going for a 6 or 10 pool ). Even if your opponent gets the expansion up, will you really let him saturate that expansion? Eat him up, force him to make zerglings. He wont stand a ghost of a chance if you are reasonably agressive. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
I'm ~1800 zerg and I can firmly show with confidence this build is actually one of two standard builds now: 16 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 13/14 gas. Of course this build will easily lose to very early cheese, but that's why you usually don't do it on 2 player maps like steppes of war or xel naga caverns(especially the former.) Basically, what you do with this build is just make two spinecrawlers once your pool finishes, block off ramp with queen, and from there you actually have several options(though most people go into roach/hydra/infestor. Also, I'm sorry but mass splings, while can be effective, will lose alright if the opponet knows what your doing. The effectiveness of mass splings comes mainly from the suprise, the "OMG why did he make so many lings." If the opponet realizes you're doing that, and makes enough banelings with lings to chase off those pesky enemy lings trying to kill blings, then your safe. Of course, that's not saying it's not effective per se, rather that it's not going to devolve to that kind of build. On October 25 2010 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote: Thirdly, it is actually detrimental to your economy early on. Let that sink into you for a little bit. =>DETRIMENTAL<=. The reasoning behind this is that unlike your opponent, you invested 300 minerals in a hatchery that has yet to pay for itself. Your opponent on the other hand has had that money to drone up a bit more than you. He will have a better economy than the FE player in that timeframe. You had to cut drone production while you were planting that hatch and waiting for the minerals for the spawning pool. Meanwhile he used that money on a few extra drones. Actually, this is somewhat accurate yet also leaves out a major aspect: it DOES give you an advantage later in the game. Think about it, you have more larva, you have another expo(and 5 drones at two different bases gives more income than 10 drones at one). Basically, once you hold off that initial push, you can just start making drones and get WAY ahead. | ||
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Synk
United States297 Posts
If I scout any early pool or if I don't scout in time, I just go a safe 13 pool 13 gas, then 15 hatch into mass lings .. but i end up with a few less drones in this one because I really need lings out asap. The reason why 2 hatches is so good, is it makes it so you can actually dump all of your minerals into ling production and it makes you able to out mass your opponent quickly. Without the 2nd hatch all in lings is very dangerous, but with the 2nd hatch its easy to walk right over roaches, banelings, and spinecrawlers .. with decent micro. I rarely even mine at all at my natural since its a bit more exposed and i risk losing one of my 14-18 drones .. depending the game. | ||
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Synk
United States297 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
So here's some replays. In a couple of them, either I or my opponent experimented with the evo chamber to block gas that has been discussed recently. I'm unimpressed with it, and won't be doing it anymore personally. Games where I played okay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95494-1v1-zerg-steppes-of-war this guy tried roach aggression in response to my fast expo. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95495-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns this guy did kind of a wierd build, getting fast +1 attack and mass lings. Happy ending  Games where I played like shit but still won: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95493-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands I had lots of minerals toward the end, but I was pretty far ahead at that point. roach aggression again. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95489-1v1-zerg-steppes-of-war this guy went straight for banelings, and I went roach. He left after the attack failed, not knowing I wasn't ahead very far due to crappy macro (was a bit rusty this game). Interesting fact: a baneling explosion is enough to kill all larva in its radius. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/95492-1v1-zerg-scrap-station This guy went all-out lings, and the weakness of roaches really shows on this open map. If he would have brought banelings, he would have probably won. I don't claim to be an excellent player, and if you watch the replays you'll notice that I don't really have any "game plan," other than a general idea to hold off the opponent's aggression with a stronger economy. Also I don't get much time to play, as I'm busy as a teacher and a student. But ever since patch 1.1.2 I've done hatch first in every matchup including ZvZ, and it's been working out pretty well. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
It's auto loss to 6-->10 pool but they're so rare since they lose to everything else =p | ||
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