EPT[D] ZvZ 16 Hatch 15 Pool - Page 5
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kweer
United States34 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 27 2010 01:44 kweer wrote: I have seen the pros hatch first in ZvZ and make it work, however I have had so much luck with staying at 1 base, getting out 12-15 roaches and then hitting their expo. It seems like no matter what they're going for they never have enough to stop it. I'm probably going to keep this as my standard ZvZ until it stops working. Who have you been playing where that works? I can't see how that would work vs anyone who is proactive with their scouting. Sunks+ling+queens+drones can hold off lots and lots of roaches. That seems like a decent strategy on maps with large nats, but on maps that are conducive to hatch first builds, that seems like a bad counter. | ||
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
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Phlintlock
Canada32 Posts
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Bowdy
United States232 Posts
That being said, I hate doing that build, but I've never had it not work (even against 2200 zerg practice partner over and over again). No I don't enjoy ZvZ phlintlock | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On October 27 2010 03:05 Phlintlock wrote: Does anyone ENJOY ZvZ???? It's my least favorite matchup, but I still enjoy it. | ||
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lindn
Sweden833 Posts
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 27 2010 05:55 Jeffbelittle wrote: Mr.Bitter: I know that this is totally about ZvZ but if not this build, would you reccomend a 15 hatch/14 pool build or a 16/15, or a 14 hatch/15 pool build to someone looking to get better overall as zerg in the other matchups besides ZvZ? Things that small don't really matter, especially if you are just learning the race. Just pick one and stick with it. Personally I'd say 15/14 or 14/14, as 16hatch is pretty unsafe even after all the nerfs. | ||
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adrenaLinG
Canada676 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 27 2010 06:54 AdrenalinG wrote: if youre going 16 hatch im 6 pooling you good thing fog of war exists then | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 27 2010 05:55 Jeffbelittle wrote: Mr.Bitter: I know that this is totally about ZvZ but if not this build, would you reccomend a 15 hatch/14 pool build or a 16/15, or a 14 hatch/15 pool build to someone looking to get better overall as zerg in the other matchups besides ZvZ? Hatch first is great in all match ups. Don't be afraid to try it vP or vT. I go 14 hatch, almost universally.... Except in ZvZ when I'll try to add another drone or two before dropping my expo. In other words: Listen to SixGhost. (he owns me every time we play, btw) | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
Well I've been doing 15 hatch and 14 pool in ZvZ's for a while now ever since some korean guy stomped my usual cheesy 14 gas 13 bling build. Nowadays players have really learned to completely shut down bling play, and it's just annoying to know that there will most likely be an obnoxious roach all-in follow up after the initial bling rush. 15 hatch 14 pool is so much more fun, and I don't mind losing games doing that build, except when the other player decides to blindly 6pool me. Typically the spawning pool never seems to come out on time for me even if I scout super early =_=, maybe I should scout at like friggin 8 food or some shit like that. Currently the counters I've seen the 15/14 or 14/14 is a huge ling all-in push, which you will most certainly die to if you just don't scout it. There was this other one that was really neat, where the zerg player made spinecrawlers at my nat and pressured me as long as possible while keeping his lings alive as we both got our crawlers up, but of course this would never happen if you just PAID ATTENTION hahaha, something I have trouble doing. There's also the big roach push as was mentioned before, but I think all of us are too bad to properly stop the push. I'm quite positive that if we had gosu control and game sense we'd be able to buy enough time to prepare and scout for that massive push. Over time I've learned that, if you see no units (except for ones blocking the front), but also you see no expansion, then that bastard you're facing is hiding his goddamn units =_=. On a side note, has anyone thought that going mass queen and zerglings with 1 or 2 spine crawlers will be a good way to stave off any type of all-in attack? Queens just incase the guy decides to block off his ramp and make some extremely fast mutas, and even if he does do a roach all-in the queens (in a good number by the time he gets 12-14 roaches) coupled together with lings and a few crawlers should be enough to hold off the attack. Also scaring the roach guy, by have speedlings to potentially run-by into his main is also a good tactic to buy time before he makes his all-in push. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
(I'm 1850 and win shitload of ZvZ w early pool, most in fact, not necessarily right away with the rush tho) | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 27 2010 08:49 oddeye wrote: Hey guy, I just don't understand how you can hold off a early pool with this build. Seems like you won't win many games. If you scout him before you throw down your hatch, your usually not even ahead because of the scouting drone and he gets a faster queen anyway. If you did not see it, you are dead pretty much. I think you need to kill like 2 drones to be equal with someone 13 pooling with 8pool and it's really not that hard to do with early pools, drone don't do as good as before they don't have range. (I'm 1850 and win shitload of ZvZ w early pool, most in fact, not necessarily right away with the rush tho) I'm guessing (not sure) that the response includes canceling the hatch and building Spines. I really can't see any other way to hold against the kind of Zergling numbers that should be expected from a 13pool with some guts behind it. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
I am referring to pool before first ovie btw. | ||
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Zvendetta
United States321 Posts
If I force the production of 1 spine and 5 sets of lings just because I am *threatening* with blings, then I can produce another round of drones while he is constantly forced to defend. Meanwhile, I throwdown my expansion at 20 drone count, while zerg 1 who went 16 hatch still only has 16 drones and his expo is being hammered away. Best case scenario, I kill a batch of lings then have blings at the bottom of ramp allowing my own lings to kill his natural. Worst case scenario, He is forced to lower to 15 drone count because he built a spine, and for the next 2/3 minutes is only producing lings to defend. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 27 2010 09:50 Zvendetta wrote: Damage in ZvZ is not just meaused in terms of literal units/buildings lost, but also in larvae expenditure. If I force the production of 1 spine and 5 sets of lings just because I am *threatening* with blings, then I can produce another round of drones while he is constantly forced to defend. Meanwhile, I throwdown my expansion at 20 drone count, while zerg 1 who went 16 hatch still only has 16 drones and his expo is being hammered away. Best case scenario, I kill a batch of lings then have blings at the bottom of ramp allowing my own lings to kill his natural. Worst case scenario, He is forced to lower to 15 drone count because he built a spine, and for the next 2/3 minutes is only producing lings to defend. You can try that out on me if you'd like, I'm curious to see how that game would work out. Thing is though, it's extremely easy to have overlords watching your reinforcement path, and as such, I can tell when you are stopping ling production, and it's just as easy for me to switch back into droning, except with more double your queen and hatch count for a while. I've never had a person open baneling on me and win with anything other than a straight up bust when doing this build. I think a build like that would have trouble handling the pressure a 15hatch can apply if you play passive. sixghost.219 if you're on the NA server. | ||
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Mindspider
91 Posts
On October 27 2010 01:44 kweer wrote: I have seen the pros hatch first in ZvZ and make it work, however I have had so much luck with staying at 1 base, getting out 12-15 roaches and then hitting their expo. It seems like no matter what they're going for they never have enough to stop it. I'm probably going to keep this as my standard ZvZ until it stops working. I usually do the same, though I hit with less roaches. If I see a fast expand I immediately switch to roaches, pump out 8-10 (two injects), and then attack. Typically arrives before they have a significant amount of lings or crawlers up, and if you can get your roaches onto their ramp or behind their mineral line, you can hold off a large amount of lings fairly easily. I haven't lost with this response yet, though I can't say how it would work against better opponents. That being said, after seeing so many pro players using hatch first builds, I've been trying hard to learn how to make them work. If you can hold off early aggression, having that early expansion feels great. | ||
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