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On October 25 2010 08:25 Gentso wrote:To those guys saying it doesn't work against 14 gas 13 pool... here's a replay of me doing a 15 hatch, 16 pool and winning against a 1500 diamond player who did just that. Sry, I don't ladder enough but I think 1500 is kind of a decent opponent. http://www.mediafire.com/?3fafttxc06g4w55
Sorry man, i don't consider a 50 apm zerg to be "decent"
You also did this on scrap, which is by far the longest distance of anymap in the pool. The ling micro was very supbar pre-blings, then his 5 blings killed i think a total of 10 lings, not the greatest micro.
I would call this a micro loss, as apposed to build order win.
The only issue i have with the "guard your ramp with queens/spines" as that this doesn't cover you natural at all(minus jungle). The issue is your nat is still really exposed and you dont have the number of lings, or the any blings by the time your nat is under fire.
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guys please stay on topic we dont care about a speedling all in every game this is to discuss 16 hatch 15 pool
This is a VALID build order as exhibited by 3 of the top zerg players in the world (i do not know who luffy is) so discuss its pros and cons, as it has both rather than just discussing why it auto loses every game.. the opening build seems to be 16 hatch 15 pool into lingbling with a roach transition later. I do not know how many roaches are necessary but dimaga seems to get about 30 (lol) and overwhelm his opponent massively to the point where it seems there is no other valid midgame switch
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On October 25 2010 09:57 SlapMySalami wrote:
guys please stay on topic we dont care about a speedling all in every game this is to discuss 16 hatch 15 pool
This is a VALID build order as exhibited by 3 of the top zerg players in the world (i do not know who luffy is) so discuss its pros and cons, as it has both rather than just discussing why it auto loses every game.. the opening build seems to be 16 hatch 15 pool into lingbling with a roach transition later. I do not know how many roaches are necessary but dimaga seems to get about 30 (lol) and overwhelm his opponent massively to the point where it seems there is no other valid midgame switch
They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right?
And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles.
In my opinion/experience, fast hatches are very vulnerable to sling/fast blings, especially when its not super far positions. The issue isn't about blocking the ramp from letting blings in, its figuring out how to defend the natural AND your ramp from lings and blings with just lings/queen, until you get your blings out.
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On October 25 2010 10:03 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 09:57 SlapMySalami wrote:
guys please stay on topic we dont care about a speedling all in every game this is to discuss 16 hatch 15 pool
This is a VALID build order as exhibited by 3 of the top zerg players in the world (i do not know who luffy is) so discuss its pros and cons, as it has both rather than just discussing why it auto loses every game.. the opening build seems to be 16 hatch 15 pool into lingbling with a roach transition later. I do not know how many roaches are necessary but dimaga seems to get about 30 (lol) and overwhelm his opponent massively to the point where it seems there is no other valid midgame switch They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right? And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles. In my opinion/experience, fast hatches are very vulnerable to sling/fast blings, especially when its not super far positions. The issue isn't about blocking the ramp from letting blings in, its figuring out how to defend the natural AND your ramp from lings and blings with just lings/queen, until you get your blings out.
I was playing around for awhile with a 14 hatch build. The thing I found that worked against 13/14 pools was a 14 hatch 14 pool 14-15 gas. Make an immediate baneling nest and some lings/queen/spinecrawlers The thing is spine crawlers at the choke are great at picking off opposing banelings and lings that have to run through a choke have trouble avoiding banelings.
I have switched back to 14 gas 14 pool and killed every fast expand player I have been up against just because at my 1500 diamond the micro isn't good enough to save a 14 hatch. At a high level I could see it working better because the baneling time is near identical and banelings at a choke can hold off ridiculous amounts of lings.
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1900 Zerg here.
Hatch first is the new standard on maps with defensible naturals. Maps like Lost Temple, Shakuras Plateau... Metalopolis can get a little sketchy sometimes, and Xel'Naga Caverns is more or less a no-no.
That said, proper building placement, a couple spines, and queens in chokes is all you need to defend any 1 hatch plays that can be thrown your way.
Here's why:
Unless you're getting cheesed, a typical pool first build is going to be 14 gas, 13 pool, or 13 pool, 15 gas.
14 hatch or 15 hatch will see the hatch going down at approximately the same time as the other guy's pool. Your pool will be down before your opponents' is even half way done.
This means your pool will be finished within 20-30 seconds of your opponents' pool finishing. Remember, it takes lings 24 seconds to build, so worst case scenario, his lings hatch as soon as your lings are started.
Any pool first build that involves early pressure stops droning at 15. If you drone past 15 you won't be able to make any significant number of lings.
If you drone past 14, the most lings you can make right away is 4.
This notion of hatch first giving an economic disadvantage is silly. If I hatch on 15, pool on 14, I'm going to have just as many (if not more) drones than my opponent, and 2 hatches from which to build more.
If you pool first, AND you save larvae to build lings, you'll have 14-15 drones, and 6 lings.
If you hatch first, by virtue of having a second hatchery, you instantly gain a larvae advantage. You'll be able to make 6 lings as soon as your pool finishes without saving larvae.
In other words, as soon as your hatch finishes (which incidentally, lines up with your pool finishing) you'll be able to make 6 lings.
This means your instantly matching your opponents units on the field, while also instantly gaining a production advantage.
Next comes the argument of "pool first gets a faster queen".
Sure it does. You'll get a brief 4 larvae advantage after you first inject. My first inject won't be far behind, however, and the units from my inject will be hatching before yours ever get to my base.
And again. I have two hatcheries. You can't match my production.
From there, you can try to continue with aggression, but its up to me to make a mistake at this point. I have more production, and AT LEAST an equal economy.
If you break me, its not my builds fault... its mine for having bad control.
Exceptions to this are maps like Xel'Naga, where I can't really defend my hatch and my ramp at the same time. In instances like this, you can just run up my ramp and win, because I can't defend two places at once.
Most maps, however, don't suffer from this dilemma.
So if you go pool first, what are your choices?
You can go banelings, but you won't get them up my ramp. I don't have to even mine from that expo. I'd like to, but if you're bringing crazy pressure, I'll just keep my drones safe, and defend my front.
It takes 17 banes to kill a hatchery. (that was actually pre-1.1.2) I'll make that trade all day long, and then I'll just run to your base and win.
I can block my ramp with queens, and you can throw units at it all day, you won't get up as long as I match your ling production.
The fact is: Hatch first is completely safe. (Except to cheese) That's why the pros are doing it.
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On October 25 2010 06:56 TheWarbler wrote:
I dont get how the build will stop a 8 pool. Id like to see it used vs some cheese before testing.
none would expand after scouting 8 pool, obviously you go for FE only if you dont see a pool or a late pool of your opponent
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There is no way that this will stand a chance against cheese. If I played these guys I would just 8pool them to see what they would do. I bet standard ling/bling would wreck this.
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On October 25 2010 10:42 MrBitter wrote:
hatch first analysis
I really liked your analysis. I agree: Hatch first can match the early ling production of 1 base zerg.
I have one major dilemma with hatch first builds, and that how long it takes to get speedlings. While your ling production will match a 1-base zerg, you will get speedlings much later, which gives them a pretty big window to do some damage. For this reason, I think it's smart to try and get blings or roaches out quickly. But, I dont get to ZvZ that often, and hatch first is almost always resulting in a loss. I think I need to work on my sim city, but I dont know.
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I think that it works in the pro games because they know their opponent won't cheese them. On the ladder you can't be sure.
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On October 25 2010 10:53 hadoken5 wrote:
I think that it works in the pro games because they know their opponent won't cheese them. On the ladder you can't be sure.
If you scout on 9, you're going to find your opponent by 12 supply anyway. If you see a pool, drop one of your own. Big freak'n deal.
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On October 25 2010 10:53 hadoken5 wrote:
I think that it works in the pro games because they know their opponent won't cheese them. On the ladder you can't be sure.
Actually, you can be sure, by scouting.
I bet standard ling/bling would wreck this.
Do you think the people who use this build regularly haven't run into ling/bling yet?
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On October 25 2010 10:03 zomgtossrush wrote:
They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right?
And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles.
yes because 4 separate professional gamers do the same exact opening build in a tournament setting means its pretty damn efficient
theyre playing for $25000 so unless hatch before pool is cheese it is qualified as a standard and reliable build
mrbitter i like all of your analysis.. these players actually sacrifice banelings for spines what do you think of that??
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On October 25 2010 10:57 SlapMySalami wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 10:03 zomgtossrush wrote:
They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right?
And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles.
yes because 4 separate professional gamers do the same exact opening build in a tournament setting means its pretty damn efficient theyre playing for $25000 so unless hatch before pool is cheese it is qualified as a standard and reliable build mrbitter i like all of your analysis.. these players actually sacrifice banelings for spines what do you think of that??
I don't get banes when I go hatch first, unless I add them later for some sort of roach/bling push. (Which I never do, anyway)
Fact is, spines kick ass. If you have any inkling of control you can focus banes with the spines, and then clean up with the lings you have stashed in the back of your nat.
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On October 25 2010 10:55 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 10:53 hadoken5 wrote:
I think that it works in the pro games because they know their opponent won't cheese them. On the ladder you can't be sure. If you scout on 9, you're going to find your opponent by 12 supply anyway. If you see a pool, drop one of your own. Big freak'n deal.
In at least one of his games TLO dropped a hatch without sending a drone out to scout. They're playing build order lottery, not doing it reactively.
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I'm not saying it isn't viable or anything, but honestly I won't start up my "siege" or attack of an FE until the baneling nest is done.
The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE.
I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy.
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On October 25 2010 11:16 Zvendetta wrote:
I'm not saying it isn't viable or anything, but honestly I won't start up my "siege" or attack of an FE until the baneling nest is done.
The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE.
I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy.
all you need to do is send zerglings in 1 by 1 for the banelings as long as you dont micro them anyways these players get banelings as well so you'll be on even footing
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6 pool and 15 hatcher. I for one scout at 10 drones and then 14 hatch if i dont see a 6 pool.
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i love to see 15 hatch, because i almost always go 12 gas, 12 pool, first 100 gas ling speed, first 50 gas banelings nest, all while pumping lings, its more than enough income to sustain a crazy amount of lings and an eventual lair morph
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alright i just had a game using this strat at around 1400 diamond..
opponent 10 pooled and failed to kill me after i chucked down a few spine crawlers at my natural.
very bad mannered game
have a looksie for those interested in the viability of this build vs earlier pools.
i also had a game before this where my opponent 6 pools but you can easily defend this with drones alone if you pull back long enough for lings to come out
replay link
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On October 25 2010 10:49 hadoken5 wrote:
There is no way that this will stand a chance against cheese. If I played these guys I would just 8pool them to see what they would do. I bet standard ling/bling would wreck this.
..it's called scouting. No one will blindly build 15hatch after scouting an early pool.
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EPT
