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On October 25 2010 19:58 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 15:15 MrBitter wrote:
Queens on the ramp, spines target banes, lings run in and clean up the rest.
This really isn't that difficult... I would love to believe this. But I'd also like to see some specific timings and such. Any chance you could post a rep or two. Thanks for the analysis.
I'll post some more replays as I get more ZvZs. As it is, this is the only one I've played recently.
The guy I played against was terrible.
This was my first game played in like 3 days, so I was sloppy as shit.
However, this does show what I do when I go hatch first.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/4658
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There are clearly better zergs than I (~1400) posting here, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
I've been hatching first in about half of my ZvZs for a couple of months. This is map dependant, and should not be attempted on Scrap Station especially. On a single player map, I find that scouting on 9 is good, 8 for steppes. If I see a 14 pool or later, I expand.
I've been going 15h14p, drone to 16, ov, drone. On pool pop, make a couple zerglings and a queen. On hatch pop start the second queen and 1-2 spine crawlers. Queen from main drops a creep tumor on her way to the ramp. Second queen spits and then to ramp (hold position).
I've been fiddling with the timings, but while you hold the front, start an extractor and roach warren in the main. What your first batch of lings scouts determines whether you drone hard or make more lings. 3 roaches can block the ramp and free your queens up, but add more to taste. If he's dead set on running banelings into your roaches, make sure there is a little space between your lines because of splash damage. Also remember that if lings are heading for your natural mineral line, select the workers and click on a mineral patch in your main. They'll go through your units on the ramp in hold position.
Around the time I'm ready to go Lair, I'll drop an evo chamber and additional extractors, depending on tech path. This is also when I want to sac an overlord if I don't know what he's going for.
This is an opening that has developed over time, and it is by no means perfect. I'm comfortable with the timings and the transitions because of practice and repetition. I really prefer it to the ling/bling openers. Something that people might miss at first glance is that the hatch first creates creep (and supply) that lets you get spines in time. I'll have to review some replays where the pros are attempting something similar.
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Thanks a lot MrBitter, I'll have to check that out.
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On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours
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I did this build today against some very hard AI's because I saw Mr.Bitter posted it and everytime I see him post on this forums I know he is saying something of great value for the swarm. (1500 point platinum zerg, rank 1, here)
Basically: I was scared to death. I played 1 ZvP and 1 ZvZ, I should have lost the ZvP, but I didn't, due to mutas forcing the ai to not move out and win. But that was my first try, and I really did drone tooooo much.
Second game, I played a little more conservative, and for the benefit of the doubt I put it on scrap station instead of blistering sands which is rush town. Defended the first roach attack no problem, went ling/baneling/muta. Micro'd lings to attack roaches while my banelings head for the mineral line. I won and felt really freaking good about it because playing a game THIS macro based just feels great.
All in All, I want to do this strategy against all races if on a cross position map that I think isn't too short, and I will lose some games unnecessarily over it at first because I need to learn when to not be drone greedy but DAMN this is a fun strategy if I learn it right. Pretty much: if I lose, it's on me not balancing larvae well enough. But I'd rather learn this strat well and win lots of games in the future, then stick to the safe builds I use now.
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On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours
I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this...
If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different?
You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers.
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On October 26 2010 08:47 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this... If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different? You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers.
The next few sets of lings should make a difference due to the fact that there should be more of them since the 14 pool player did not invest 300 minerals in a hatchery  There is definitely a window where the 14 pool player will have a greater amount of lings
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On October 26 2010 09:12 sennen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:47 MrBitter wrote:On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this... If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different? You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers. The next few sets of lings should make a difference due to the fact that there should be more of them since the 14 pool player did not invest 300 minerals in a hatchery There is definitely a window where the 14 pool player will have a greater amount of lings
Ok, I concede.
You keep going pool first. I hope it works out for you.
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Sennen doesn't know when to shut up and take good advice, sigh.
Thanks for the replys Bitter/Dark, I have hated ZvZ because of the direction it was/is taking. By going hatch first you can pretty much dictate the way the game will be played (hard macro, early aggression etc.), because if you defend/scout well enough, the other zerg has no choice but to match you macro-wise, turning the MU into something muuuuuch more fun than 10minute ling/bling/roach wars every time.
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MrBitter: would you mind explaining a little bit on how to adapt to early pressure, and maybe go into a little more detail about if this strategy is exclusive to ZvZ? Maybe talk about some teching paths etc?
I'm really nervous to develop this in ladder as I am on the verge of finally getting promoted to diamond league, but I'd love to see a replay of you personally doing this against maybe 2 gate pressure, or a 13 pool, or doing it on blistering sands so we can see when do you ling, where do you go, etc.
I just really need to know larvae balance and when to tech. But this build is really exciting and it feels empowering having this many resources and gas coming in soooo early!
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On October 26 2010 10:16 Jeffbelittle wrote:
MrBitter: would you mind explaining a little bit on how to adapt to early pressure, and maybe go into a little more detail about if this strategy is exclusive to ZvZ? Maybe talk about some teching paths etc?
I'm really nervous to develop this in ladder as I am on the verge of finally getting promoted to diamond league, but I'd love to see a replay of you personally doing this against maybe 2 gate pressure, or a 13 pool, or doing it on blistering sands so we can see when do you ling, where do you go, etc.
I just really need to know larvae balance and when to tech. But this build is really exciting and it feels empowering having this many resources and gas coming in soooo early!
FE in ZvT and ZvP is completely different from going hatch first in ZvZ. I think that discussion might be better served in another thread.
As for the ZvZ breakdown...
We've talked about how to respond to early pressure already. Lings, Queens and Spines are really all you'll need to handle any early push from the other Z.
An awesome example of this is TLO vs Dimaga on LT from Blizzcon.
TLO goes pool first against Dimaga's hatch first.
Dimaga makes 3 spines, blocks his ramps with queens to prevent a run-by, and lets the spines do all the work when TLO commits to his attack. If you haven't seen the game, you should really check it out. The whole replay pack can be found here:
http://us.media.blizzard.com/blizzcon/2010/replays/blizzcon_2010_sc2_tournament_replays.zip
TLO vs Dimaga was in Round 2.
After averting the early pressure, all Dimaga had to do was ride the advantage he'd established to victory.
As for teching paths... Well, that's almost always situational, but you can rarely go wrong by aiming for hydra/infestor/roach.
I like to get there by first establishing map control with speedlings, and then rushing to my hydra tech in time for mutas.
After going hatch first, its pretty easy to just win outright with speedlings because of the production advantage you'll have established for yourself.
If your opponent techs, your lings can easily deny his natural.
If your opponent goes roach, your lings can easily shut them down as soon as he leaves the security of his ramp.
If your opponent tries to drone, you can just outright overwhelm.
As always with lings, you have to be mindful of banelings, and as always with Starcraft, don't mindlessly attack into a well defended opponent. If he has spines and units, and you don't know for sure that you can break in, be satisfied with the advantage you've established, and continue building on it with good macro.
Its also important to understand that in really long games (as rare as they are) there's virtually nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can shut down a few Broodlords.
If you feel a game is going to go the distance, aim for greater spire tech, rather than ultras.
I feel like I've rambled on a bit longer than I intended to. Hope this helps, and please ask more questions if you've got 'em.
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On October 25 2010 08:59 Slayer91 wrote:
You can defend early ling/baneling with the stuff Zelniq used in the day[9] daily with queens to block the ramp and 2-3 spinecrawlers -->roaches. I believe I saw dimaga do that stuff in fact.
It's auto loss to 6-->10 pool but they're so rare since they lose to everything else =p
hope nobody quoted this but, it is actually auto win to 6-10 pool if you have any idea how to micro your drones behind the minerals or in the mineral line for protectoin.
18 drones surrounding 6 lings tears them apart and u will lose 1 drone at most... then win the game easy with a massive eco advantage...
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On October 26 2010 14:27 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 10:16 Jeffbelittle wrote:
MrBitter: would you mind explaining a little bit on how to adapt to early pressure, and maybe go into a little more detail about if this strategy is exclusive to ZvZ? Maybe talk about some teching paths etc?
I'm really nervous to develop this in ladder as I am on the verge of finally getting promoted to diamond league, but I'd love to see a replay of you personally doing this against maybe 2 gate pressure, or a 13 pool, or doing it on blistering sands so we can see when do you ling, where do you go, etc.
I just really need to know larvae balance and when to tech. But this build is really exciting and it feels empowering having this many resources and gas coming in soooo early! FE in ZvT and ZvP is completely different from going hatch first in ZvZ. I think that discussion might be better served in another thread. As for the ZvZ breakdown... We've talked about how to respond to early pressure already. Lings, Queens and Spines are really all you'll need to handle any early push from the other Z. An awesome example of this is TLO vs Dimaga on LT from Blizzcon. TLO goes pool first against Dimaga's hatch first. Dimaga makes 3 spines, blocks his ramps with queens to prevent a run-by, and lets the spines do all the work when TLO commits to his attack. If you haven't seen the game, you should really check it out. The whole replay pack can be found here: http://us.media.blizzard.com/blizzcon/2010/replays/blizzcon_2010_sc2_tournament_replays.zipTLO vs Dimaga was in Round 2. After averting the early pressure, all Dimaga had to do was ride the advantage he'd established to victory. As for teching paths... Well, that's almost always situational, but you can rarely go wrong by aiming for hydra/infestor/roach. I like to get there by first establishing map control with speedlings, and then rushing to my hydra tech in time for mutas. After going hatch first, its pretty easy to just win outright with speedlings because of the production advantage you'll have established for yourself. If your opponent techs, your lings can easily deny his natural. If your opponent goes roach, your lings can easily shut them down as soon as he leaves the security of his ramp. If your opponent tries to drone, you can just outright overwhelm. As always with lings, you have to be mindful of banelings, and as always with Starcraft, don't mindlessly attack into a well defended opponent. If he has spines and units, and you don't know for sure that you can break in, be satisfied with the advantage you've established, and continue building on it with good macro. Its also important to understand that in really long games (as rare as they are) there's virtually nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can shut down a few Broodlords. If you feel a game is going to go the distance, aim for greater spire tech, rather than ultras. I feel like I've rambled on a bit longer than I intended to. Hope this helps, and please ask more questions if you've got 'em. Thanks for summarizing all this in one post MrBitter. I'm actually really surprised people still didn't know how badly hatch first can beat 14/14 lingbling. I've been playing like this vs lingbling ever since I saw zelniq do it way back on that day9 vod.
Also, to clear some stuff up that I saw. If the other guy is going 2gas mass baneling or something to target your hatch, just be ready on the transfusions. Your 2 queens on the ramp shouldnt really have been using their energy for anything other than 1 creep tumor, so you should have another 200 HP for the hatchery, which will usually save it. And even if it dies, to be honest it's not the worst trade in the world if he uses 16+ banelings to kill a hatchery, just counterattack him to put on some pressure and retake the base.
Also, don't forget your simcity people. 2 evo chambers placed in such a way that blocks off your 2-3 sunks makes you virtually invincible vs lingbling.
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On October 26 2010 09:12 sennen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:47 MrBitter wrote:On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this... If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different? You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers. The next few sets of lings should make a difference due to the fact that there should be more of them since the 14 pool player did not invest 300 minerals in a hatchery There is definitely a window where the 14 pool player will have a greater amount of lings
When your natural hatchery pops, you place 2 sunken colonies immediately. Believe me, the last thing in the world you are going to lose to vs any gas first build is mass ling.
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Lately all my zvz matches have become roach/hydra fests, and I agree that an economical approach early game could yield significant results towards the end of this matchup, but I still think that early aggression from zerg is worth the economic slow down sometimes. Think about it, if all the top players hatched first all the time, then a sleeper strategy that someone could do is an early pool. Are you gonna play the same way every match? I don't think there's a real "standard" in zvz, just economic builds and aggressive builds.
I've been experimenting with a lot of overpool (then drone to 13 and 6 lings after) with some success because the early ling aggression forces the opponent's drones to lose mining time if they do economic openings that don't get lings in time. Against hatch first builds, well, it automatically neutralizes the advantage you're supposed to get from an early hatch and most of the time you lose that hatch if you don't spend your larva on units to defend. Against 14 pool or similar openings, if you dont get those 6 lings out before mine get there, well, you lose drones. If you do, then basically I'm not too far behind if not equal, because you've spent those larva on lings.
Basically, overpool gives you get a faster queen, you can drone up after those 6 lings, and you can still put a gas down pretty early if you scout a gas first build. In my experience, there has been a lot of deviations after this opening, to mass speedlings or roaches depending on how the opponent reacts, and I've never been behind to the point that it cost me the game.
I don't see 16 hatch as a safe opening unless you get a good scout on the later pool. Play it safe, unless you got maphacks or something.
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@mr bitter and darkforce, nice to see high level zergs willing to post here . I've been doing the hatch first in most of my ZvZ's, was wondering if you think this build is viable on scrap station. I'm stubborn so I keep trying it but not being able to block the ramp with queens always proves detrimental to me. Any thoughts?
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its very difficult to say whether it works on scrap station, it has worked against my 14 gas 14 pool in the past, but that might very well have been because of micro mistakes of mine. the last time DIMAGA did it against me on scrap he instantly lost to the first few banelings becuase they ran into his minerals while his banelings where still morphing.
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On October 26 2010 14:49 BusyBee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 08:59 Slayer91 wrote:
You can defend early ling/baneling with the stuff Zelniq used in the day[9] daily with queens to block the ramp and 2-3 spinecrawlers -->roaches. I believe I saw dimaga do that stuff in fact.
It's auto loss to 6-->10 pool but they're so rare since they lose to everything else =p 18 drones surrounding 6 lings tears them apart and u will lose 1 drone at most... then win the game easy with a massive eco advantage...
I'm not saying this isn't true but whenever i try to defend with my drones, even if i get a good surround i still lose at least 4-5 drones to those 6 lings? am i doing it wrong? i just surround and then hit A.
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Played against darkforce and mardow several times.. They both FE'ed in steppes in ZvZ..15 hatch-14 pool..
1874 zerg here btw..
Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:47 MrBitter wrote:On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.
In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.
Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.
Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.
As for your 300 mineral investment argument:
I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?
You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.
I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.
I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.
To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.
Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this... If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different? You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers.
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On October 26 2010 19:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
its very difficult to say whether it works on scrap station, it has worked against my 14 gas 14 pool in the past, but that might very well have been because of micro mistakes of mine. the last time DIMAGA did it against me on scrap he instantly lost to the first few banelings becuase they ran into his minerals while his banelings where still morphing.
If you scout hatch first on scrap, couldn't you just skip speed for superfast baneling and win with your first attack? It's hard enough to deal with baneling first builds on maps like LT and metal, I don't see anyway you could protect both your main and nat in that situation.
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EPT
