On October 27 2010 03:09 Bowdy wrote: if they hatch first i do the +1 attack speed roach timing attack off one base. It's very all in, as youll only have like 15 drones and no expansion if the attack fails, but I'm pretty convinced it's literally impossible to stop if they hatch first. If they go roaches you'll have 3 times as many, if they go lings you just ball up your roaches so they can't get a good surround, and spine crawlers.... well lawl, theyd have to make so many that the extra hatch wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.
That being said, I hate doing that build, but I've never had it not work (even against 2200 zerg practice partner over and over again).
No I don't enjoy ZvZ phlintlock
Basically this, I have the hardest time holding off roaches when going hatch first. My question for you guys is if you scout roaches, do you mainly just go spines for defense, or do you use lings at all? Also, when do you transition to roaches yourself?
howdy! i'm a ~1750 zerg on EU at the moment. i suggest reading "MrBitter"'s post on page 2, he puts the strategy in quite good words, i haven't read the whole thread but wanted to give my view
this build has actually changed my ZvZ a lot in the past weeks.
let's consider lost temple (easiest for this to learn):
i 14 hatch, 14 pool (consider 13 hatch close posi, because of creep for spinecrawlers) i drone up until my hatch and pool finish, then immediatly build 2 queens and 6 zerglings. send your zerglings out to attack his - he won't have more with a standart speedling / baneling build! just kill enough and dont let him do early banelings (sometimes banelings before speed happens..). now you build 2 spinecrawlers close to your ramp, some space between bc of baneling splash (this is important). now your queens finish, you transfuse both hatches and send then to your ramp to block (hold position!!!). now you are pretty safe and have a lot of options. i generally drone up a bit, and depending on pressure do one or all of the following things: add spinecrawlers (space in between! close to your ramp), build extra lings or i drone up, get a roachwarren and gas. if he tries to attack - mineral walk your drones to your mainbase (you have overlords to see it coming, banelings are slow). vs speedling, just add spines and roaches. 2 base roach timing attack will destroy every 1base zerg!
follow up: hydras and 2 infestors against mutas. sporecrawlers against faster tech. get roach speed and overwhelm him or continue your makro advantage.
good maps (in order of personal preference): lost temple, shakuras plateau, metalopolis, sometimes steppes and blistering sands can work, but its harder. haven't yet tested it on jungle basin but with early creep it's maybe possible, but your 2nd queen will walk a long time...
bad maps (=nogo!): scrap station, xelnaga, delta quadrant
i usually lose on the "good maps" because of screwing up timings... if you play and control this perfectly (which isn't that hard), you have a solid most times gamechanging advantage.
good counters: 1base roach timing push, most people just expand and you have a bit of an advantage, which you should hold on to via makro.
So far I've been having success using 16 hatch to open. But, when I face better, aggressive zergs they do some really weird things to punish the FE. For example against a practice partner who 14 pools he'll take his scouting drone and build a spine crawler in a little nook behind the mineral line that has very little surface area. I'm forced to pull drones to kill it off and he'll just cancel it before it dies and restart it. It only costs him 25 minerals per cancel IIRC and 4 drones not mining for me is a lot. It delays my first spine crawlers just enough so he has a critical amount of lings to pick it off. And then I'm screwed when his banelings come shortly after. How do you guys deal with this?
I'm not saying it's not valid, I'm just saying that it's not necessarily safe either.
I do think that blind hatch is fucking ridiculously dumb, I'm not sure why any pro would do this with a clear conscience. If you scout to check their pool timing or on very large map then it works fine, I even do it sometimes.
I typically do a few things when I see hatch first.
1. Block my ramp with a couple roaches to hide tech/units. Most players assume fast muta and build extra queen/spores or tech to muta themselves, spreading themselves pretty thin. 2. Scout to see spine count, if low, push with roach ball. If he thought you were teching and he started to drone, you usually win. 3. If it is high, fast lair into nydus. Spines tend to be out of position and +1 roaches really demolish lings. I can usually kill or severely damage his main. 4. Expand myself. Usually not hard to hold since he spent his money on queens and spines.
The problem with hatch first isn't so much the hatch, but the droning afterwards. I will be first to admit that a hatch with only transferred drones is quite safe, but if he drones at all, it takes a little while for that hatch to pay for itself, and there's a big window where I can push and/or nydus and either kill it or remove whatever advantage he had just through killing his shit.
On October 25 2010 06:58 shmoo wrote: It really comes down to where you are on the ladder and who you are playing. Anything later than a 13 pool has a really hard time with a 6 or 7 pool.
When you play against high level opponents, the odds of cheese diminishes greatly so you see these greedy macro oriented openings more often.
To maximize your econ in the early game as Zerg, you go 16 hatch/15pool.
Has anyone actually worked this out to see if it is true? Superficially it seems that building anything other than Drones slows down your economy. But getting a Queen/Hatch gives more larva, allowing more drones to be built. It depends on how you define "maximize your econ", but I wonder if16h/15p is too late.
I've been playing around with "Evolution Chamber" ( http://code.google.com/p/evolutionchamber/ ). I've done many different kinds of BO optimizations. Almost always, the pool/hatch go down no later than 14. Sure, this is a slight eco hit over 16h/15p at that moment, but it gets paid back once the extra larva can be used. And having the pool/queen slightly earlier has non-eco benefits as well.
Evolution Chamber is relatively new, and might not be working correctly. That's why I am asking if anyone has worked out the eco benefits of 16h/15p over something like 14/14.
Artosis said in the GSL 3, before the first set between Nestea and Sen something about
New AI letting drones fend off early pools (or did he say pool first?) except may be things like 10 pool bling, 11 pool bling, etc. He said that it works if you go 17 hatchery, and that if you "micro right" you will be able to hold off (and secure an advantage?) with those 17 drones vs early zerglings.
Although what you are posting is 16 hatch... so I'm not sure.
EPT
