[D] ZvZ 16 Hatch 15 Pool

On October 25 2010 06:51 CHOChi wrote:
i've been doing 14 hatch 14 pool and it works pretty well for me, but 16 hatch is clearly the better economy build

dont really get what you want to hear at stopping the 16 hatch build.. well some cheese may stop it i guess..

On October 25 2010 07:09 Dromar wrote:
This is my standard (almost).

I scout at 9, and if my opponent did an early pool, I go 13/14 pool or whenever I scout it. If my opponent went standard 13 or 14 pool, I go 15 hatch. If they are going hatch first, I block the hatch with my scouting drone.

On October 25 2010 08:38 Chaosvuistje wrote:

Thirdly, it is actually detrimental to your economy early on. Let that sink into you for a little bit. =>DETRIMENTAL<=.

The reasoning behind this is that unlike your opponent, you invested 300 minerals in a hatchery that has yet to pay for itself. Your opponent on the other hand has had that money to drone up a bit more than you. He will have a better economy than the FE player in that timeframe.
You had to cut drone production while you were planting that hatch and waiting for the minerals for the spawning pool. Meanwhile he used that money on a few extra drones.

On October 25 2010 08:25 Gentso wrote:
To those guys saying it doesn't work against 14 gas 13 pool... here's a replay of me doing a 15 hatch, 16 pool and winning against a 1500 diamond player who did just that. Sry, I don't ladder enough but I think 1500 is kind of a decent opponent.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3fafttxc06g4w55

On October 25 2010 09:57 SlapMySalami wrote:
guys please stay on topic we dont care about a speedling all in every game this is to discuss 16 hatch 15 pool

This is a VALID build order as exhibited by 3 of the top zerg players in the world (i do not know who luffy is) so discuss its pros and cons, as it has both rather than just discussing why it auto loses every game.. the opening build seems to be 16 hatch 15 pool into lingbling with a roach transition later. I do not know how many roaches are necessary but dimaga seems to get about 30 (lol) and overwhelm his opponent massively to the point where it seems there is no other valid midgame switch

On October 25 2010 10:03 zomgtossrush wrote:



They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right?

And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles.

In my opinion/experience, fast hatches are very vulnerable to sling/fast blings, especially when its not super far positions. The issue isn't about blocking the ramp from letting blings in, its figuring out how to defend the natural AND your ramp from lings and blings with just lings/queen, until you get your blings out.

On October 25 2010 06:56 TheWarbler wrote:
I dont get how the build will stop a 8 pool. Id like to see it used vs some cheese before testing.

On October 25 2010 10:42 MrBitter wrote:

hatch first analysis

On October 25 2010 10:53 hadoken5 wrote:
I think that it works in the pro games because they know their opponent won't cheese them. On the ladder you can't be sure.

On October 25 2010 10:03 zomgtossrush wrote:
They are on topic. You can't discuss a builds strengths, without discussing its weaknesses. Right?

And just fyi, just because a "pro" does it, doesn't mean its the answer, or the optimal. Even they have weaknesses and play styles.

On October 25 2010 10:57 SlapMySalami wrote:



yes because 4 separate professional gamers do the same exact opening build in a tournament setting means its pretty damn efficient

theyre playing for $25000 so unless hatch before pool is cheese it is qualified as a standard and reliable build

mrbitter i like all of your analysis.. these players actually sacrifice banelings for spines what do you think of that??

On October 25 2010 10:55 MrBitter wrote:


If you scout on 9, you're going to find your opponent by 12 supply anyway. If you see a pool, drop one of your own. Big freak'n deal.

On October 25 2010 11:16 Zvendetta wrote:
I'm not saying it isn't viable or anything, but honestly I won't start up my "siege" or attack of an FE until the baneling nest is done.

The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE.

I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy.

On October 25 2010 10:49 hadoken5 wrote:
There is no way that this will stand a chance against cheese. If I played these guys I would just 8pool them to see what they would do. I bet standard ling/bling would wreck this.

On October 25 2010 13:35 Barrin wrote:

Isn't 9lord better than 10lord?


Contradiction detected!

On October 25 2010 11:16 Zvendetta wrote:
The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE.

I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy.

On October 25 2010 14:10 samuraibael wrote:
So you are saying 2 spines 1 queen and 2 hatch production of slow lings can stop anything a 14 pool can throw at it (on relevant maps)? Id have thought 14 pool baneling/speedlings would be able to break this if microd well.
Slow lings woudlnt be defend their crawlers until all the banelings were dead, which surely would be after the spines were dead if the banelings were microd so that their splash hits the spine.

On October 25 2010 14:09 Crabman123 wrote:
Every time my opponents go hatch before pool in ZvZ I just make mass lings + 3-4 banelings and do a timing attack the moment speed finishes. Speedlings >>>>>>>>>>> normal lings. It is not even close. Have any higher level players found a way to deal with such an attack? I just don't see a way that you could possibly deal with it with ought building 3+ spine crawlers.

On October 25 2010 13:40 forgotten0ne wrote:
This all revolves around a core concept: economy. The idea is that in a high level game, the player that wins is the player with the highest econ. To maximize your econ in the early game as Zerg, you go 16 hatch/15pool. 16 hatch is when you'll have 300 minerals anyway just from only being able to pump drones and ovies, and the reason you don't use this same "drone until you have the minerals" trick on the pool, is that you hit a point where earlier queens will allow you to keep your minerals down upon popping.

The main idea in high ZvZ is called "Pool chicken" where if the player gets an earlier pool, you want to get one ~2-3 supply later (depending on the map) to maximize your econ, while still being able to defend early aggression. If they haven't pooled by 15, it is safe to expo first.

Finally, you should always scout with your 9th drone in ZvZ. This will allow you to play "Pool" chicken safely, and stop the 6-8 pools (you'll see it ~12 which is early enough of a pool to defend).

On October 25 2010 10:42 MrBitter wrote:
The fact is: Hatch first is completely safe. (Except to cheese) That's why the pros are doing it.

On October 25 2010 18:34 sennen wrote:

uhhh.....what? I couldn't help but laugh at your thought process here. When you go hatch first you invest 300 minerals into something that CANNOT attack. I repeat it CANNOT attack. ALL it does is produce larvae. This build also delays your spawning pool meaning (assuming the timings you stated were correct) the opponent will have 6 zerglings out ~24 seconds before you. Hmmm if I had 6 zerglings out and my opponent had none....I think I'd pick off a drone or two. So assuming the 14 pool zerg player manages to pick off say 2 drones while the hatch first zerg has no zerglings out, which is a fair amount I'd say, the hatch first zerg is now 2 or 3 drones behind. Ok but the extra hatch will make up for that in production....no it won't. Not immediately anyways (in the 15-30 food range) because the 14 pool zerg's queen will have been injecting larvae sooner than the hatch first zerg's, the pool first zerg actually has better production early. BUT the hatch first zerg can make spine crawlers to defend right? And spines are VERY cost efficient! True but if the pool first zerg is playing with his build's strength (an extra 300 minerals to use on military units = 12 extra zerglings) he will have map control and will continually harass the natural, preventing mining as well as the production of spines. Something you also seem to have forgotten, Mr.Bitter, is that while your queens are sitting at your ramp protecting your main (2 queens to block the ramp is an extra 150 mineral investment which = 6 zerglings) there is nothing protecting your natural, assuming the pool first player won the zergling war using his superior number of lings to wittle down the natural. Oh I forgot to mention, the pool first player has access to zergling speed MUCH earlier. To sum things up- GG 14 hatch

On October 25 2010 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote:
hatch first works on quite a few maps against 14 gas 14 pool, especially on LT, Meta, Jungle Basin and Shakuras it is at least a soft counter. On Steppes of war it can work, but its harder because of the short rush distance.

of course it gets hardcountered by an early pool, but usually you can at least scout most, if not all positions before placing down the hatchery.

@the guy above me: most of your post is complete nonsense.

On October 25 2010 15:15 MrBitter wrote:
Queens on the ramp, spines target banes, lings run in and clean up the rest.

This really isn't that difficult...

On October 25 2010 08:48 Pandain wrote:
Wow at everyone saying "OMG THIS WILL NEVER WORK".
I'm ~1800 zerg and I can firmly show with confidence this build is actually one of two standard builds now: 16 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 13/14 gas.

Of course this build will easily lose to very early cheese, but that's why you usually don't do it on 2 player maps like steppes of war or xel naga caverns(especially the former.)

Basically, what you do with this build is just make two spinecrawlers once your pool finishes, block off ramp with queen, and from there you actually have several options(though most people go into roach/hydra/infestor.

Also, I'm sorry but mass splings, while can be effective, will lose alright if the opponet knows what your doing. The effectiveness of mass splings comes mainly from the suprise, the "OMG why did he make so many lings." If the opponet realizes you're doing that, and makes enough banelings with lings to chase off those pesky enemy lings trying to kill blings, then your safe.
Of course, that's not saying it's not effective per se, rather that it's not going to devolve to that kind of build.



Actually, this is somewhat accurate yet also leaves out a major aspect: it DOES give you an advantage later in the game. Think about it, you have more larva, you have another expo(and 5 drones at two different bases gives more income than 10 drones at one). Basically, once you hold off that initial push, you can just start making drones and get WAY ahead.

On October 25 2010 19:58 Lobotomist wrote:


I would love to believe this. But I'd also like to see some specific timings and such. Any chance you could post a rep or two. Thanks for the analysis.

On October 25 2010 18:48 MrBitter wrote:
I feel like I covered this already.

In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch.

Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too.

Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there.

As for your 300 mineral investment argument:

I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool?

You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage.

I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp.

I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play.

To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit.

On October 26 2010 08:00 sennen wrote:

Hey chill Mr.Bitter I'm not trying to engage in some lame nerd war with you on the teamliquid forums. True you will have 6 lings up as 6 lings enter your base however it's the reinforcements and the early speed that will cause problems in the 25-30 food area. I still am having a hard time understanding how you think you can stop a zergling force that has 12 or more lings in it than yours

On October 26 2010 08:47 MrBitter wrote:


I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't wrap your head around this...

If your first 6 lings can't get to my base before my first 6 lings hatch, why on earth do you think your next 12 lings will be any different?

You don't have to take it from me. Take it from Darkforce who posted right after you on the previous page. He's a 2300+ Diamond Zerg on the Euro servers.

On October 26 2010 09:12 sennen wrote:

The next few sets of lings should make a difference due to the fact that there should be more of them since the 14 pool player did not invest 300 minerals in a hatchery There is definitely a window where the 14 pool player will have a greater amount of lings

On October 26 2010 10:16 Jeffbelittle wrote:
MrBitter: would you mind explaining a little bit on how to adapt to early pressure, and maybe go into a little more detail about if this strategy is exclusive to ZvZ? Maybe talk about some teching paths etc?

I'm really nervous to develop this in ladder as I am on the verge of finally getting promoted to diamond league, but I'd love to see a replay of you personally doing this against maybe 2 gate pressure, or a 13 pool, or doing it on blistering sands so we can see when do you ling, where do you go, etc.

I just really need to know larvae balance and when to tech. But this build is really exciting and it feels empowering having this many resources and gas coming in soooo early!

On October 25 2010 08:59 Slayer91 wrote:
You can defend early ling/baneling with the stuff Zelniq used in the day[9] daily with queens to block the ramp and 2-3 spinecrawlers -->roaches. I believe I saw dimaga do that stuff in fact.

It's auto loss to 6-->10 pool but they're so rare since they lose to everything else =p

On October 26 2010 14:27 MrBitter wrote:


FE in ZvT and ZvP is completely different from going hatch first in ZvZ. I think that discussion might be better served in another thread.

As for the ZvZ breakdown...

We've talked about how to respond to early pressure already. Lings, Queens and Spines are really all you'll need to handle any early push from the other Z.

An awesome example of this is TLO vs Dimaga on LT from Blizzcon.

TLO goes pool first against Dimaga's hatch first.

Dimaga makes 3 spines, blocks his ramps with queens to prevent a run-by, and lets the spines do all the work when TLO commits to his attack. If you haven't seen the game, you should really check it out. The whole replay pack can be found here:
http://us.media.blizzard.com/blizzcon/2010/replays/blizzcon_2010_sc2_tournament_replays.zip

TLO vs Dimaga was in Round 2.

After averting the early pressure, all Dimaga had to do was ride the advantage he'd established to victory.

As for teching paths... Well, that's almost always situational, but you can rarely go wrong by aiming for hydra/infestor/roach.

I like to get there by first establishing map control with speedlings, and then rushing to my hydra tech in time for mutas.

After going hatch first, its pretty easy to just win outright with speedlings because of the production advantage you'll have established for yourself.

If your opponent techs, your lings can easily deny his natural.
If your opponent goes roach, your lings can easily shut them down as soon as he leaves the security of his ramp.
If your opponent tries to drone, you can just outright overwhelm.

As always with lings, you have to be mindful of banelings, and as always with Starcraft, don't mindlessly attack into a well defended opponent. If he has spines and units, and you don't know for sure that you can break in, be satisfied with the advantage you've established, and continue building on it with good macro.

Its also important to understand that in really long games (as rare as they are) there's virtually nothing in the Zerg arsenal that can shut down a few Broodlords.

If you feel a game is going to go the distance, aim for greater spire tech, rather than ultras.

I feel like I've rambled on a bit longer than I intended to. Hope this helps, and please ask more questions if you've got 'em.

On October 26 2010 09:12 sennen wrote:

The next few sets of lings should make a difference due to the fact that there should be more of them since the 14 pool player did not invest 300 minerals in a hatchery There is definitely a window where the 14 pool player will have a greater amount of lings

On October 26 2010 14:49 BusyBee wrote:


18 drones surrounding 6 lings tears them apart and u will lose 1 drone at most... then win the game easy with a massive eco advantage...

On October 26 2010 19:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
its very difficult to say whether it works on scrap station, it has worked against my 14 gas 14 pool in the past, but that might very well have been because of micro mistakes of mine. the last time DIMAGA did it against me on scrap he instantly lost to the first few banelings becuase they ran into his minerals while his banelings where still morphing.

On October 27 2010 01:44 kweer wrote:
I have seen the pros hatch first in ZvZ and make it work, however I have had so much luck with staying at 1 base, getting out 12-15 roaches and then hitting their expo. It seems like no matter what they're going for they never have enough to stop it. I'm probably going to keep this as my standard ZvZ until it stops working.

On October 27 2010 05:55 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Mr.Bitter: I know that this is totally about ZvZ but if not this build, would you reccomend a 15 hatch/14 pool build or a 16/15, or a 14 hatch/15 pool build to someone looking to get better overall as zerg in the other matchups besides ZvZ?

On October 27 2010 06:54 AdrenalinG wrote:
if youre going 16 hatch im 6 pooling you

On October 27 2010 05:55 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Mr.Bitter: I know that this is totally about ZvZ but if not this build, would you reccomend a 15 hatch/14 pool build or a 16/15, or a 14 hatch/15 pool build to someone looking to get better overall as zerg in the other matchups besides ZvZ?

On October 27 2010 08:49 oddeye wrote:
Hey guy, I just don't understand how you can hold off a early pool with this build. Seems like you won't win many games. If you scout him before you throw down your hatch, your usually not even ahead because of the scouting drone and he gets a faster queen anyway. If you did not see it, you are dead pretty much. I think you need to kill like 2 drones to be equal with someone 13 pooling with 8pool and it's really not that hard to do with early pools, drone don't do as good as before they don't have range.

(I'm 1850 and win shitload of ZvZ w early pool, most in fact, not necessarily right away with the rush tho)

On October 27 2010 09:50 Zvendetta wrote:
Damage in ZvZ is not just meaused in terms of literal units/buildings lost, but also in larvae expenditure.

If I force the production of 1 spine and 5 sets of lings just because I am *threatening* with blings, then I can produce another round of drones while he is constantly forced to defend.

Meanwhile, I throwdown my expansion at 20 drone count, while zerg 1 who went 16 hatch still only has 16 drones and his expo is being hammered away. Best case scenario, I kill a batch of lings then have blings at the bottom of ramp allowing my own lings to kill his natural.
Worst case scenario, He is forced to lower to 15 drone count because he built a spine, and for the next 2/3 minutes is only producing lings to defend.

On October 27 2010 01:44 kweer wrote:
I have seen the pros hatch first in ZvZ and make it work, however I have had so much luck with staying at 1 base, getting out 12-15 roaches and then hitting their expo. It seems like no matter what they're going for they never have enough to stop it. I'm probably going to keep this as my standard ZvZ until it stops working.

On October 27 2010 22:06 mrhobbers wrote:
I checked out sc2rep, they didn't have these Cella vs ret games. Were they replays or just streams? I'm yet to win trying the 14-15 hatch, as others have said, I just don't have enough to defend the 1 base roach push.

On October 27 2010 22:16 imperator-xy wrote:
what do zergs with hatch first do if i just build a spine crawler next to their hatch while its building and go ling all-in then? i would do a normal 14 pool

On October 27 2010 22:23 Aubergine wrote:


Where will you build the spine crawler? There's no creep next to a building Hatch unless you hatch-cancel-then build a spine crawler. I always have a overlord over my building hatch in case of such things (like cannons and bunkers too).

On October 27 2010 23:05 imperator-xy wrote:

yes, you have to hatch-cancel and then build it.

okay, i guess that will become less effective from day to day as you will always get an overlord to your expansion if you loose against this one time.
but right now my opponents dont do anything against it nearly all the time. this is still a good way to cancel an expansion i think

On October 27 2010 23:36 Mczeppo wrote:
I got the point in doing the early hatch but there is one thing i'm still wondering about. Do you block the ramp with *one* Queen and a couple of zerglings. I mean without zerglings you need 2 queens usually.
My second question is, do you put the spine crawlers behind your ramp (which is protected by one queen and some lings?) or do you put it at each gas geyser to protect your second hatch. If you put them behind the ramp you'd have to keep all drones in your main base; if you put them at your natural you're maybe allowed to also mine from that second base.

How do you do it i didn't get the build 100 %
Thanks

On October 28 2010 00:18 ImGonnaRideYou wrote:
I'll keep this hatch first build in mind and practice it in customs/friends to see how it feels. I don't see it working vs opponents bnet pits me against (900pt plat). I can't risk it because one bad loss and I may lose momentum and go on a losing streak the whole night. I have yet to come across anyone going >13pool or using "pool chicken" mentality on me. You just bring the biggest gun you have to the fight and hope the other guy's gun is smaller.

On October 25 2010 06:58 shmoo wrote:
It really comes down to where you are on the ladder and who you are playing. Anything later than a 13 pool has a really hard time with a 6 or 7 pool.

When you play against high level opponents, the odds of cheese diminishes greatly so you see these greedy macro oriented openings more often.

Its very hard to stop a good timing push in zvz when you fe and the opponent 1 bases.

On October 27 2010 03:09 Bowdy wrote:
if they hatch first i do the +1 attack speed roach timing attack off one base. It's very all in, as youll only have like 15 drones and no expansion if the attack fails, but I'm pretty convinced it's literally impossible to stop if they hatch first. If they go roaches you'll have 3 times as many, if they go lings you just ball up your roaches so they can't get a good surround, and spine crawlers.... well lawl, theyd have to make so many that the extra hatch wouldn't do them a damn bit of good.

That being said, I hate doing that build, but I've never had it not work (even against 2200 zerg practice partner over and over again).

No I don't enjoy ZvZ phlintlock

On November 03 2010 03:57 Beardfish wrote:
Anyone have any high level replays of this being done on blistering sands? Thanks.

On October 25 2010 06:58 shmoo wrote:
It really comes down to where you are on the ladder and who you are playing. Anything later than a 13 pool has a really hard time with a 6 or 7 pool.

When you play against high level opponents, the odds of cheese diminishes greatly so you see these greedy macro oriented openings more often.

On November 03 2010 12:11 Subversion wrote:
MrBitter, if you're still watching this thread:

could you post a good build order for hatch 1st?

im just uncertain of when to get gas,queens and crawlers this is assuming your opponent is 1-basing and trying to punish ur build

btw your stream kicks ass!

To maximize your econ in the early game as Zerg, you go 16 hatch/15pool.