[D] ZvZ 16 Hatch 15 Pool - Page 3

On October 25 2010 13:35 Barrin wrote:

Isn't 9lord better than 10lord?


Contradiction detected!

On October 25 2010 11:16 Zvendetta wrote:
The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE.

I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy.

On October 25 2010 14:10 samuraibael wrote:
So you are saying 2 spines 1 queen and 2 hatch production of slow lings can stop anything a 14 pool can throw at it (on relevant maps)? Id have thought 14 pool baneling/speedlings would be able to break this if microd well.
Slow lings woudlnt be defend their crawlers until all the banelings were dead, which surely would be after the spines were dead if the banelings were microd so that their splash hits the spine.

On October 25 2010 14:09 Crabman123 wrote:
Every time my opponents go hatch before pool in ZvZ I just make mass lings + 3-4 banelings and do a timing attack the moment speed finishes. Speedlings >>>>>>>>>>> normal lings. It is not even close. Have any higher level players found a way to deal with such an attack? I just don't see a way that you could possibly deal with it with ought building 3+ spine crawlers.

On October 25 2010 13:40 forgotten0ne wrote:
This all revolves around a core concept: economy. The idea is that in a high level game, the player that wins is the player with the highest econ. To maximize your econ in the early game as Zerg, you go 16 hatch/15pool. 16 hatch is when you'll have 300 minerals anyway just from only being able to pump drones and ovies, and the reason you don't use this same "drone until you have the minerals" trick on the pool, is that you hit a point where earlier queens will allow you to keep your minerals down upon popping.

The main idea in high ZvZ is called "Pool chicken" where if the player gets an earlier pool, you want to get one ~2-3 supply later (depending on the map) to maximize your econ, while still being able to defend early aggression. If they haven't pooled by 15, it is safe to expo first.

Finally, you should always scout with your 9th drone in ZvZ. This will allow you to play "Pool" chicken safely, and stop the 6-8 pools (you'll see it ~12 which is early enough of a pool to defend).

On October 25 2010 10:42 MrBitter wrote:
The fact is: Hatch first is completely safe. (Except to cheese) That's why the pros are doing it.

On October 25 2010 18:34 sennen wrote:

uhhh.....what? I couldn't help but laugh at your thought process here. When you go hatch first you invest 300 minerals into something that CANNOT attack. I repeat it CANNOT attack. ALL it does is produce larvae. This build also delays your spawning pool meaning (assuming the timings you stated were correct) the opponent will have 6 zerglings out ~24 seconds before you. Hmmm if I had 6 zerglings out and my opponent had none....I think I'd pick off a drone or two. So assuming the 14 pool zerg player manages to pick off say 2 drones while the hatch first zerg has no zerglings out, which is a fair amount I'd say, the hatch first zerg is now 2 or 3 drones behind. Ok but the extra hatch will make up for that in production....no it won't. Not immediately anyways (in the 15-30 food range) because the 14 pool zerg's queen will have been injecting larvae sooner than the hatch first zerg's, the pool first zerg actually has better production early. BUT the hatch first zerg can make spine crawlers to defend right? And spines are VERY cost efficient! True but if the pool first zerg is playing with his build's strength (an extra 300 minerals to use on military units = 12 extra zerglings) he will have map control and will continually harass the natural, preventing mining as well as the production of spines. Something you also seem to have forgotten, Mr.Bitter, is that while your queens are sitting at your ramp protecting your main (2 queens to block the ramp is an extra 150 mineral investment which = 6 zerglings) there is nothing protecting your natural, assuming the pool first player won the zergling war using his superior number of lings to wittle down the natural. Oh I forgot to mention, the pool first player has access to zergling speed MUCH earlier. To sum things up- GG 14 hatch

On October 25 2010 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote:
hatch first works on quite a few maps against 14 gas 14 pool, especially on LT, Meta, Jungle Basin and Shakuras it is at least a soft counter. On Steppes of war it can work, but its harder because of the short rush distance.

of course it gets hardcountered by an early pool, but usually you can at least scout most, if not all positions before placing down the hatchery.

@the guy above me: most of your post is complete nonsense.

On October 25 2010 15:15 MrBitter wrote:
Queens on the ramp, spines target banes, lings run in and clean up the rest.

This really isn't that difficult...

On October 25 2010 08:48 Pandain wrote:
Wow at everyone saying "OMG THIS WILL NEVER WORK".
I'm ~1800 zerg and I can firmly show with confidence this build is actually one of two standard builds now: 16 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 13/14 gas.

Of course this build will easily lose to very early cheese, but that's why you usually don't do it on 2 player maps like steppes of war or xel naga caverns(especially the former.)

Basically, what you do with this build is just make two spinecrawlers once your pool finishes, block off ramp with queen, and from there you actually have several options(though most people go into roach/hydra/infestor.

Also, I'm sorry but mass splings, while can be effective, will lose alright if the opponet knows what your doing. The effectiveness of mass splings comes mainly from the suprise, the "OMG why did he make so many lings." If the opponet realizes you're doing that, and makes enough banelings with lings to chase off those pesky enemy lings trying to kill blings, then your safe.
Of course, that's not saying it's not effective per se, rather that it's not going to devolve to that kind of build.



Actually, this is somewhat accurate yet also leaves out a major aspect: it DOES give you an advantage later in the game. Think about it, you have more larva, you have another expo(and 5 drones at two different bases gives more income than 10 drones at one). Basically, once you hold off that initial push, you can just start making drones and get WAY ahead.