EPT[D] ZvZ 16 Hatch 15 Pool - Page 3
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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AngelusDeLetum
United States98 Posts
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forgotten0ne
United States951 Posts
The main idea in high ZvZ is called "Pool chicken" where if the player gets an earlier pool, you want to get one ~2-3 supply later (depending on the map) to maximize your econ, while still being able to defend early aggression. If they haven't pooled by 15, it is safe to expo first. Finally, you should always scout with your 9th drone in ZvZ. This will allow you to play "Pool" chicken safely, and stop the 6-8 pools (you'll see it ~12 which is early enough of a pool to defend). | ||
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mikell
Australia352 Posts
On October 25 2010 13:35 Barrin wrote: Isn't 9lord better than 10lord? Contradiction detected! oh i know 9 lord is better than 10 lord, i made that signature when i first signed up and started playing sc2  and i am not saying that 16 hatch 15 pool is the best answer to an early pool, but i'm just putting this out there saying that it isn't a straight up build order loss. | ||
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oddeye
Canada716 Posts
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
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Reuental
United States457 Posts
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
Slow lings woudlnt be defend their crawlers until all the banelings were dead, which surely would be after the spines were dead if the banelings were microd so that their splash hits the spine. | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On October 25 2010 11:16 Zvendetta wrote: The idea behind when I see a hatch is that I know they will only have access to lings to defend- and they won't have the gas for anything. What I can do is morph in 4 banelings and post them up on the lower part of the ramp, then the rest of my lings will start to eat away at the FE. This is especially awesome to do on jungle basin, because they honestly can't block the ramp before the hatch even finishes. The whole point is not have the blings actually do anything but hold position, I'm never actually attacking buildings with blings, but they give me control over the game. Blings are the "power unit" in this situation. The best part is, the zerg who didn't go for a greedy FE is now extraordinarily farther ahead in the eco- sometimes in ZvZ, being able to get higher drone count will give you a better eco edge than getting an FE. I don't need to charge into the main when I do this, (maps like lost temple), all I need to do is separate his forces from mine and I can instantly wreck the expansion, afterwards I'll get my own expansion at 25ish food, but since I have been denying yours I am in the better position. The hatch first will only pay off once you get drones mining on it, and to be honest its not that its just vulnerable to cheese- a mere handful of lingblings will absolutely deny outright. Its just to greedy. This has happened to me a couple of times. They have a lot of speedlings that are attacking the expansion with a couple of banelings on hold behind the speedlings. If you send out lings 1 by 1 to kill the blings, the opponents speedlings will pick them off. If you send out more lings, they'll counter with the banelings. The only reasonable solution is a lot of roaches or banelings yourself. You can't let that expansion go down though or they will take the economic advantage in the mid game. There are very clear roles in zvz. The player who expands first is going to be the defender and the player who elects not to expand or expands later, will be the aggressor. These roles reverse if the FE player either loses, or has to cancel the hatchery at his nat. I definitely feel that the defender has the advantage, especially at higher levels of play. His units obviously have much less distance to travel, he can see the opponents army composition well before they see his, and he has the option of static defenses. Games where you see expansions go down at similar times, whether it be at 14, 21, or 30+ doesn't matter. Those are the games that make it to tier 2 and they simply throw armies at each other (usually roaches.) Hatch first on larger maps works very well in zvz. I don't even scout till my first set of lings, so yes I hatch first blindly. The chances of getting 6 pooled on a 4-player map are slim to none. On smaller maps I'm still playing ling/bling. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 25 2010 14:10 samuraibael wrote: So you are saying 2 spines 1 queen and 2 hatch production of slow lings can stop anything a 14 pool can throw at it (on relevant maps)? Id have thought 14 pool baneling/speedlings would be able to break this if microd well. Slow lings woudlnt be defend their crawlers until all the banelings were dead, which surely would be after the spines were dead if the banelings were microd so that their splash hits the spine. Yes. Except you definitely want a 2nd queen asap. On October 25 2010 14:09 Crabman123 wrote: Every time my opponents go hatch before pool in ZvZ I just make mass lings + 3-4 banelings and do a timing attack the moment speed finishes. Speedlings >>>>>>>>>>> normal lings. It is not even close. Have any higher level players found a way to deal with such an attack? I just don't see a way that you could possibly deal with it with ought building 3+ spine crawlers. Queens on the ramp, spines target banes, lings run in and clean up the rest. This really isn't that difficult... | ||
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On October 25 2010 13:40 forgotten0ne wrote: This all revolves around a core concept: economy. The idea is that in a high level game, the player that wins is the player with the highest econ. To maximize your econ in the early game as Zerg, you go 16 hatch/15pool. 16 hatch is when you'll have 300 minerals anyway just from only being able to pump drones and ovies, and the reason you don't use this same "drone until you have the minerals" trick on the pool, is that you hit a point where earlier queens will allow you to keep your minerals down upon popping. The main idea in high ZvZ is called "Pool chicken" where if the player gets an earlier pool, you want to get one ~2-3 supply later (depending on the map) to maximize your econ, while still being able to defend early aggression. If they haven't pooled by 15, it is safe to expo first. Finally, you should always scout with your 9th drone in ZvZ. This will allow you to play "Pool" chicken safely, and stop the 6-8 pools (you'll see it ~12 which is early enough of a pool to defend). I love this, "Pool Chicken" LOL. It's true, I use this exact concept when close positioning on LT or Metalopolis. I guess I should start scouting at 9 on other maps to do the same thing... | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
anyways I tried out 15Hatch 14Pool and 14Hatch 13Pool, depending on if they were random (14hatch is my standard for P and T so it's my AVG pool timing if don't know what race he is.) To get to the point I went 6-2; the opponents didn't even have time to get roaches because they were investing so many lings to stop my early hatchery. To address something a lot of people are assuming: The early hatchery is not necessarily for an early economy lead. It is for a high larva build which easily transitions into a high economy should the aggression die down. Picture it as a normal lingbling matchup but if he stops to make roaches or stops attacking with lings you are free to make drones and a couple crawlers and defend up because you already have your hatch down. Also if you want to play more aggressively you pretty much SLINGSHOT forward shake & bake style with your amount of lings in comparison to his. Replay of 15hatch 14pool from today ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160412.jpg) | ||
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sennen
46 Posts
On October 25 2010 10:42 MrBitter wrote: The fact is: Hatch first is completely safe. (Except to cheese) That's why the pros are doing it. uhhh.....what? I couldn't help but laugh at your thought process here. When you go hatch first you invest 300 minerals into something that CANNOT attack. I repeat it CANNOT attack. ALL it does is produce larvae. This build also delays your spawning pool meaning (assuming the timings you stated were correct) the opponent will have 6 zerglings out ~24 seconds before you. Hmmm if I had 6 zerglings out and my opponent had none....I think I'd pick off a drone or two. So assuming the 14 pool zerg player manages to pick off say 2 drones while the hatch first zerg has no zerglings out, which is a fair amount I'd say, the hatch first zerg is now 2 or 3 drones behind. Ok but the extra hatch will make up for that in production....no it won't. Not immediately anyways (in the 15-30 food range) because the 14 pool zerg's queen will have been injecting larvae sooner than the hatch first zerg's, the pool first zerg actually has better production early. BUT the hatch first zerg can make spine crawlers to defend right? And spines are VERY cost efficient! True but if the pool first zerg is playing with his build's strength (an extra 300 minerals to use on military units = 12 extra zerglings) he will have map control and will continually harass the natural, preventing mining as well as the production of spines. Something you also seem to have forgotten, Mr.Bitter, is that while your queens are sitting at your ramp protecting your main (2 queens to block the ramp is an extra 150 mineral investment which = 6 zerglings) there is nothing protecting your natural, assuming the pool first player won the zergling war using his superior number of lings to wittle down the natural. Oh I forgot to mention, the pool first player has access to zergling speed MUCH earlier. To sum things up- GG 14 hatch | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
of course it gets hardcountered by an early pool, but usually you can at least scout most, if not all positions before placing down the hatchery. @the guy above me: most of your post is complete nonsense. | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On October 25 2010 18:34 sennen wrote: uhhh.....what? I couldn't help but laugh at your thought process here. When you go hatch first you invest 300 minerals into something that CANNOT attack. I repeat it CANNOT attack. ALL it does is produce larvae. This build also delays your spawning pool meaning (assuming the timings you stated were correct) the opponent will have 6 zerglings out ~24 seconds before you. Hmmm if I had 6 zerglings out and my opponent had none....I think I'd pick off a drone or two. So assuming the 14 pool zerg player manages to pick off say 2 drones while the hatch first zerg has no zerglings out, which is a fair amount I'd say, the hatch first zerg is now 2 or 3 drones behind. Ok but the extra hatch will make up for that in production....no it won't. Not immediately anyways (in the 15-30 food range) because the 14 pool zerg's queen will have been injecting larvae sooner than the hatch first zerg's, the pool first zerg actually has better production early. BUT the hatch first zerg can make spine crawlers to defend right? And spines are VERY cost efficient! True but if the pool first zerg is playing with his build's strength (an extra 300 minerals to use on military units = 12 extra zerglings) he will have map control and will continually harass the natural, preventing mining as well as the production of spines. Something you also seem to have forgotten, Mr.Bitter, is that while your queens are sitting at your ramp protecting your main (2 queens to block the ramp is an extra 150 mineral investment which = 6 zerglings) there is nothing protecting your natural, assuming the pool first player won the zergling war using his superior number of lings to wittle down the natural. Oh I forgot to mention, the pool first player has access to zergling speed MUCH earlier. To sum things up- GG 14 hatch I feel like I covered this already. In the time it takes your slow lings to walk to my base, my lings will hatch. Likewise, in the time it takes the lings from your first injection to walk to my base, my first injection will have popped, and those lings will be ready too. Contrary to popular belief, Zerg units don't automatically appear in the other guy's base. They have to walk over there. As for your 300 mineral investment argument: I'm assuming you got gas to go with that pool? You remember those 4 drones you committed to gas? Mine are all on minerals. I promise you they'll mine enough to pay for that hatchery. Don't worry, I promise to put them on gas after your failure of a slow-ling rush gets repelled without doing any damage. I don't have to mine from my natural right away. You're not going to pick off ANY drones there. If you get into my base you might kill a few. But if you get up there, its not because of my build. Its because I scrubbed it up and let you up my ramp. I really don't understand why I have to explain this to you when all I'm doing is analyzing/copying what the pros are already doing in virtually every ZvZ they play. To sum things up - Don't be bad. Hatch first is the shit. On October 25 2010 18:40 DarKFoRcE wrote: hatch first works on quite a few maps against 14 gas 14 pool, especially on LT, Meta, Jungle Basin and Shakuras it is at least a soft counter. On Steppes of war it can work, but its harder because of the short rush distance. of course it gets hardcountered by an early pool, but usually you can at least scout most, if not all positions before placing down the hatchery. @the guy above me: most of your post is complete nonsense. And there you go. Validation from one of the top Zergs in all of Europe. Don't post nonsense if you clearly don't know what you're talking about. All it does is mislead people who are genuinely trying to improve. | ||
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Truffy
United States95 Posts
On October 25 2010 18:34 sennen wrote: uhhh.....what? I couldn't help but laugh at your thought process here. When you go hatch first you invest 300 minerals into something that CANNOT attack. I repeat it CANNOT attack. ALL it does is produce larvae. This build also delays your spawning pool meaning (assuming the timings you stated were correct) the opponent will have 6 zerglings out ~24 seconds before you. Hmmm if I had 6 zerglings out and my opponent had none....I think I'd pick off a drone or two. So assuming the 14 pool zerg player manages to pick off say 2 drones while the hatch first zerg has no zerglings out, which is a fair amount I'd say, the hatch first zerg is now 2 or 3 drones behind. Ok but the extra hatch will make up for that in production....no it won't. Not immediately anyways (in the 15-30 food range) because the 14 pool zerg's queen will have been injecting larvae sooner than the hatch first zerg's, the pool first zerg actually has better production early. BUT the hatch first zerg can make spine crawlers to defend right? And spines are VERY cost efficient! True but if the pool first zerg is playing with his build's strength (an extra 300 minerals to use on military units = 12 extra zerglings) he will have map control and will continually harass the natural, preventing mining as well as the production of spines. Something you also seem to have forgotten, Mr.Bitter, is that while your queens are sitting at your ramp protecting your main (2 queens to block the ramp is an extra 150 mineral investment which = 6 zerglings) there is nothing protecting your natural, assuming the pool first player won the zergling war using his superior number of lings to wittle down the natural. Oh I forgot to mention, the pool first player has access to zergling speed MUCH earlier. To sum things up- GG 14 hatch Please stop posting you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, like seriously you should be temp banned for saying something so wrong on a strategy forum. While hatch first isn't "completely safe" a 10 pool or something is really dangerous even though that's not really cheese, a 14 hatch 13 pool is very safe against a 13 gas 14 pool build or something similar which is pretty much the most popular ZvZ opening (at least around 1500 diamond) Sorry if hatch first doesn't work in silver league but you are SERIOUSLY misinformed to say something as ignorant as "GG 14 hatch." Edit : You just got told by darkforce your post is nonsense, i hear darkforce knows a thing or two about playing zerg. To add something constructive, I have had a lot of success with Roach/infestor timing pushes after my hatch first build if instead of putting pressure on the other zerg chooses to expand just a bit later. Infestors are extremely powerful, especially against hydra/mutas. They can also mess up roach concaves for the other play quite badly with some well placed fungals. Another one of my tricks is I research burrow then generally try to catch them somewhere without detection where I either fungal x2 and kill lots of workers or just spray infested terrans and kill the hatch+workers. | ||
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~GhoSt
145 Posts
This easily translates to SC2, in my opinion at least, because from my perspective zvz is a very aggressive MU, so either you expand and get lucky/defend really well that initial rush, or you're going to lose your expo (that is if they went for an aggressive pool timing). Even as i continue to watch the SPL, I always see one person in the ZvZ match up that goes on the early aggression. What I can assume to this though, is the attribute of how zerg needs to dictate pace, and by containing your opponent you can either choose to go for the all-in now or later, leaving your opponent to find different avenues to regain pace. And I think it is at that point, where if you're the one doing doing the 16 hatch, you are more than confident in prepairing to defend against any rushes because you know how to defend it, and even if they contain you, you know how to get out, or else it's better to 16 hatch if they do a later pool. What's so nice about zerg in SC2 is that back in SC1 you only get 3 larvae per hatch, the queen back in BW wasn't nice enough to spew an additional 4, which is ESSENTIAL because for 150 minerals you get what's equivelant of a hatch +1 extra larvae, WITHOUT risking yourself to move to the expansion. And that's why BW zergs had to sooner than a terran or a protoss would, because they need that extra hatch, not necessarily for the income, but rather for the additional larvae. I say this because what if for instance you did do a 16 hatch, but not at the expo, and rather in your main? You can saturate your main mineral line sooner, while have this extra hatch to spawn units, while expanding your creep without using energy, or having to wait for a lair. Although I'm not certain if this is economically better, I think it is better position wise. What I mean by that is, with the hatch placed in the main, you can defend the main better as well as potentially narrowing down the path of movement, considering zerg builds the least amount of structures. You don't run the risk of losing alot of drones, because all you have to do is immediately focus on your workers in the main, instead of whether he'll bounce back and forth or, will my units make it in time, etc. etc. What this also does is help the immediate macro game to your favor, and if you do defend the early aggression, you have that economic advantage since your main mineral line is more saturated than your opponent's, and you have an extra hatchery that was making lings/ovas already, so you have more units to do whatever you want with, and if the timing is right, you can probably expand not too long after he stops pushing you. So now you have three hatcheries to make units, a staturated mineral line, and more than enough drones to transfer over to your expo without having to think too much of making more drones, as well as having the creep already spread in your base so you can transfer a queen faster. All-in-all it really comes down to scouting, because if they do an extremely fast pool ( equal-to or less than 10 pool) then you really can't 16 hatch obviously, but from what I read is that the threat of speedlings and banelings were a deterance because of the fear of losing the expansion and drones. Just some food for thought. | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On October 25 2010 15:15 MrBitter wrote: Queens on the ramp, spines target banes, lings run in and clean up the rest. This really isn't that difficult... I would love to believe this. But I'd also like to see some specific timings and such. Any chance you could post a rep or two. Thanks for the analysis. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On October 25 2010 08:48 Pandain wrote: Wow at everyone saying "OMG THIS WILL NEVER WORK". I'm ~1800 zerg and I can firmly show with confidence this build is actually one of two standard builds now: 16 hatch 15 pool or 14 pool 13/14 gas. Of course this build will easily lose to very early cheese, but that's why you usually don't do it on 2 player maps like steppes of war or xel naga caverns(especially the former.) Basically, what you do with this build is just make two spinecrawlers once your pool finishes, block off ramp with queen, and from there you actually have several options(though most people go into roach/hydra/infestor. Also, I'm sorry but mass splings, while can be effective, will lose alright if the opponet knows what your doing. The effectiveness of mass splings comes mainly from the suprise, the "OMG why did he make so many lings." If the opponet realizes you're doing that, and makes enough banelings with lings to chase off those pesky enemy lings trying to kill blings, then your safe. Of course, that's not saying it's not effective per se, rather that it's not going to devolve to that kind of build. Actually, this is somewhat accurate yet also leaves out a major aspect: it DOES give you an advantage later in the game. Think about it, you have more larva, you have another expo(and 5 drones at two different bases gives more income than 10 drones at one). Basically, once you hold off that initial push, you can just start making drones and get WAY ahead. I do agree that it gives you an advantage in the later stage of the game. However what I'm debating is wether it is better to go pool -> hatch rather than hatch -> pool. The advantage of hatch first is that you can hold mass speedling with good micro and positioning. The larvae differential isn't that huge compared to the queen larvae inject due to the distance the lings need to walk. The advantage of pool first vs a hatch first is you can lay pressure on the hatch firster. Because you will have speedlings sooner, and possibly banelings. While you force spinecrawlers on your opponent. Because you know he will be droning up because he is slightly behind, you can drone up too and tech. Basically what I'm saying is, fast expanding IS the future of ZvZ. No doubt about that. I've fought quite a bit of zergs when we both fast expanded. But I still find pool first into hatchery a better alternative to hatch first into pool. The economy advantage between the two is neglible while the aggresion advantage is pretty big. However, when Pool chickening ( I like that word, really do ) when both players are trying to delay their pool for as long as possible, I think you can go hatch first. Though I've yet to find too much of those games thus far. Lastly, I find it interresting that ZvZ is one of the matchups that is least understood under most zergs. This isn't directed at anyone from this thread. Its just an observation that I do from playing Zergs on the ladder. | ||
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