|
On October 13 2010 06:12 Kryptix wrote:
200/200 Terran armies can't beat a T3 200/200 army from either of the other races... I've tried every combo of mech and bio with ghost and raven support vs the other two races, and barring BCs there is just nothing that can stand toe to toe.
How about 15 thors, 10 helions and like 2 workers per thor issued with move on it and auto-repair? That's 140 supply . I'd like to see a zerg composition that beats that except in a real game scenario except broodlords.
|
On October 13 2010 06:35 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:
I think the Terran metagame is underdeveloped because of the efficiency of their early game harasses. Any of their harass is like the 4 gate; easy to pull off and can potentially win the game. However, recently players have been trying to do every gimmick in the Terran arsenal, and never winning with one. They then go to the next gimmick, and if that doesn't work, on to the next gimmick. About 12 minutes in, most of these types of players don't know what to do with themselves, so they end up losing even though they are on the same amount of bases as their opponent.
Terran army compositions can be tweaked much better imo, but like I said, the development is behind. Look at TLO's new play in TvT... It's not tank/viking/bio, its hellion/thor, and it makes sense too. Hellions for bio, thors for mech. If T were so worried about mass gateway armies in PvT backed by HT, they know they can go ghost and they know to scout ahead to get off the EMP, to snipe during the battle, to make the P waste storms, etc.
As a P player, I thought to myself, "cool, just get 3 void rays and a small gate army, kill off all the marines in the first engagement, and win with voidrays." It works really well. T players try this: Marine/Marauder/Viking/Banshee... My only anti air in PvT are stalkers which don't do too well against an equal number of banshees, so kill off all the stalkers.
T players need to think up new things that players haven't seen a billion times; Hellion drops, Marauder drops, tank drops, cloaked banshees... It was effective when I didn't come to expect that crap every single TvP I played. Maybe it isn't the race that's hurting T, it is how they are currently being played. Yeah, in the end game P is going to warp in a ton of Zeals and HT to replace lost units. Get reactored hellions late game, there's no excuse for not being able to handle Z/HT i agree a lot with this. we Terrans havent tried hard enough yet to develop different, more macro- and lategame-oriented playstyles. think of bw tvz, which had a very stable metagame for years which said that once zerg gets out some defilers with lurkers or ultras and is not completely dead economically, he proceeds to roflstomp the terran. then, after several years of professional gaming, the metagame shifts and terrans discover that a mech transition starting in the midgame is possible and is beating the shit out of zerg lategame. this example shows that in particular the lategame of an rts as complex as sc, which only rarely is reached on reasonably equal grounds, can hold much of undiscovered yet viable strategies. i think idras assertion is correct in tendency, but i dont agree with the statement that terran cant be played in a more macro- and lategame-focused style at all. as a T player, i can say they cant be played in a totally passive way, but the early game advantage can be used to pressure the opponent and secure a macro advantage. from there on, a solid macro style can be just as effective as continuing the harass.
u cant possibly claim that T arent innovative with their strategies because thats complete bulshit.
terrans were one of the very first who started fast expanding and used wiked unit combinations like marine/tank/ raven/banshee, ghost mech, ghost reaper etc while other races played exclusively 4WG or massed hydra/roach,
even now after multiple mech nerfs which led into less build variety (basically mech is just an addition not a core of T army anymore - with exception of tvz but bio-mech is way to go in this MU) we still see new trends like mass mulple front drops but theres not much u can do with bio beyond that, keeping constant pressure is the only way to win with terran, with mech u leave too much free space/time for other races u will get run over by their superior high tech army.
|
Just make more production facilities late game... if your 200/200 there is no use saving up money as Terran. Its better to throw down like 10 + rax/fac/starport so you can churn out a lot of units and reinforce just as quick as toss and z.
|
On October 13 2010 07:29 Payout wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:35 Black Gun wrote:On October 13 2010 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:
I think the Terran metagame is underdeveloped because of the efficiency of their early game harasses. Any of their harass is like the 4 gate; easy to pull off and can potentially win the game. However, recently players have been trying to do every gimmick in the Terran arsenal, and never winning with one. They then go to the next gimmick, and if that doesn't work, on to the next gimmick. About 12 minutes in, most of these types of players don't know what to do with themselves, so they end up losing even though they are on the same amount of bases as their opponent.
Terran army compositions can be tweaked much better imo, but like I said, the development is behind. Look at TLO's new play in TvT... It's not tank/viking/bio, its hellion/thor, and it makes sense too. Hellions for bio, thors for mech. If T were so worried about mass gateway armies in PvT backed by HT, they know they can go ghost and they know to scout ahead to get off the EMP, to snipe during the battle, to make the P waste storms, etc.
As a P player, I thought to myself, "cool, just get 3 void rays and a small gate army, kill off all the marines in the first engagement, and win with voidrays." It works really well. T players try this: Marine/Marauder/Viking/Banshee... My only anti air in PvT are stalkers which don't do too well against an equal number of banshees, so kill off all the stalkers.
T players need to think up new things that players haven't seen a billion times; Hellion drops, Marauder drops, tank drops, cloaked banshees... It was effective when I didn't come to expect that crap every single TvP I played. Maybe it isn't the race that's hurting T, it is how they are currently being played. Yeah, in the end game P is going to warp in a ton of Zeals and HT to replace lost units. Get reactored hellions late game, there's no excuse for not being able to handle Z/HT i agree a lot with this. we Terrans havent tried hard enough yet to develop different, more macro- and lategame-oriented playstyles. think of bw tvz, which had a very stable metagame for years which said that once zerg gets out some defilers with lurkers or ultras and is not completely dead economically, he proceeds to roflstomp the terran. then, after several years of professional gaming, the metagame shifts and terrans discover that a mech transition starting in the midgame is possible and is beating the shit out of zerg lategame. this example shows that in particular the lategame of an rts as complex as sc, which only rarely is reached on reasonably equal grounds, can hold much of undiscovered yet viable strategies. i think idras assertion is correct in tendency, but i dont agree with the statement that terran cant be played in a more macro- and lategame-focused style at all. as a T player, i can say they cant be played in a totally passive way, but the early game advantage can be used to pressure the opponent and secure a macro advantage. from there on, a solid macro style can be just as effective as continuing the harass. u cant possibly claim that T arent innovative with their strategies because thats complete bulshit. terrans were one of the very first who started fast expanding and used wiked unit combinations like marine/tank/ raven/banshee, ghost mech, ghost reaper etc while other races played exclusively 4WG or massed hydra/roach, even now after multiple mech nerfs which led into less build variety (basically mech is just an addition not a core of T army anymore - with exception of tvz but bio-mech is way to go in this MU) we still see new trends like mass mulple front drops but theres not much u can do with bio beyond that, keeping constant pressure is the only way to win with terran, with mech u leave too much free space/time for other races u will get run over by their superior high tech army.
but this is exactly what i was referring to: most terrans nowadays focus their whole builds, timings and strategies around early- or midgame attacks. as zerg and protoss get better and better at countering this harass or timing attacks, this focus on early attacks is hurting terran players more and more. because most of the terrans so far have only invested their thinking into tailoring harassing and/or timing attack techniques, it is imho fair to say that the terran lategame potential is not fully explored yet. the tendency will probably be that Z or P are better off in the lategame, but this doesnt mean a lategame-oriented terran style isnt feasible at all.
|
On October 13 2010 05:12 Shlowpoke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 14:01 Everlong wrote:Im amazed, how GoOdy actually go mech every game against P and he makes it look so easy. However, he is probably the only one Ive seen meching against P in like month. So, I did a quick replay search and created a mini GoOdy TvP Mech Replay pack. These are all post-tank nerf btw. Here it is: GoOdy TvP Mech Replay PackGoOdy manages to play with mostly Hellion Tanks but incorporates early-game marauder play and marauder drops while macroing up a scary tank force. In the mid game his Hellions keep the Zealot count low or discourage them completely so the tanks can do their work. Be sure to check out the Desert Oasis game where he does a Hellion/Tank/Single Thor push in the midgame while taking the whole map. MouzHasu does something interesting against him: No Zealots and mostly Stalkers. This makes the Hellions useful only for harassment, but got me thinking: Hellion-Tank-Raven with PDD would be pretty scary. Air would be strong against it, but if you slow push while building turrets I think it could be pretty effective.
I LOVE U TY
ME--->  <------ U
|
So we probably have to look at terran game theory from a slightly different viewpoint. It has been brought up in this thread by zerg and protoss players that all terran units are available very early on, it is as if terran does not have tiers at all. Essentially you got acces to your entire arsenal really early. You can tech to 1-1-1 while expanding and being very safe so the only two units that feel like a tier away are the battlecruisers and the thor who both require an additional building, but the armory is such a core building anyway since it contains all the upgrades.
So what is the result of this? Well terran has their entire toolkit wide open from the start of the game, hence this sets up for some insanely strong early timing pushes which is what most protoss and zerg players would refer to when not being particularly happy with terran.
BUT on the other side of the same coin, all the terrans are feeling like the endgame is near impossible because obviously if you have all your tech in the first ten minutes, that also means that there is nothing left to transition into. The very same game state that makes terran so strong earlygame against toss and zerg is also what makes terran weak lategame.
For obvious reasons I have a hard time seeing blizzard balacing this out. Because whenever they nerf a unit to not make terran so strong early game, terran also gets exponentially weaker lategame, and vice versa.
When they nerfed the tank twice the early contains against protoss and one base marine/tank pushes became a lot less potent. At the same time it became impossible to hold several bases lategame against toss since the number of tanks needed at any given position to hold off small pushes became too high.
|
It seems like there's quite a bit of innovation for Terran, but a lot of it is in TvT. It's one of the only match-ups where pretty much every unit seems to be used.
TvP has a lot of opening for both sides, but the midgame is almost always some flavor of MMM against a Robo-bay Protoss.
TvZ was innovative for a while (it was the first matchup where Terran players went full mech), and Terran still has a variety of effective unit compositions. (Thor/Hellion/Banshee, who would've guessed?)
|
On October 13 2010 06:29 trotskyist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:00 Cyber_Cheese wrote:On October 12 2010 12:59 zbedlam wrote:Yes terran can play macro style, see http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2007The reason why the majority of terrans choose not to play macro style is terran 1-2 base play is extremely effective and they can often end games quicker than if they were to play a macro style game. erm... idra won that LOL, even when they try to give us links to a terran macro game, they are linking to games where terran lost.
I was making a point that terran _can_ play macro, i guess that was lost on you two. Yes the terran did lose the game, he also got outplayed all game long if you bothered to watch it.
|
On October 13 2010 07:52 ComTrav wrote:
It seems like there's quite a bit of innovation for Terran, but a lot of it is in TvT. It's one of the only match-ups where pretty much every unit seems to be used.
TvP has a lot of opening for both sides, but the midgame is almost always some flavor of MMM against a Robo-bay Protoss.
TvZ was innovative for a while (it was the first matchup where Terran players went full mech), and Terran still has a variety of effective unit compositions. (Thor/Hellion/Banshee, who would've guessed?)
TvZ is still innovative. TvT since the Tank Nerf has become more interesting. But TvP is just like you said it. MMM vs Robo. And even thats dieing out now that alot of protosses are incorporating Phoenixes to take down vikings and medivacs.
I won't be surprised that after a couple months Terran is considered the weakest race due to their inability to keep up into the late game.
In BW it seemed that most late game compositions were even in power relying on Spells and real skill in order to get the upper hand.
For example. MEch>GateWay
Gateway+Arbiter>MEch
MEch + Sci = Gateway + Arbiter
As fun as Starcraft 2 is i believe it will be awhile before all the races are balanced. The only issue is that things like Terran Earlygame PWNage and late game weakness pretty much throws off the Stats.
If BW taught us anything Harass over time is countered and nulled thus only serving as a surprise tactic. IMHO the same will be for SC2.
|
My problem with late game TvP is that anything you might want to transition into out of the stuff that falls to storm so quickly can get fedback or is the tank. Which are even worse against protoss by the time charge is available.
It's quite problematic that HTs counter small cheap units but (in the case of terran) also the big expensive units.
Colossus/Phoenix is also kind of iffy.
What I found to be ridiculously powerful late game however is mass ravens if you get enough gas to sustain a good number and get the 3759 upgrades for them. Beware of feedback though.
|
On October 13 2010 07:21 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:12 Kryptix wrote:
200/200 Terran armies can't beat a T3 200/200 army from either of the other races... I've tried every combo of mech and bio with ghost and raven support vs the other two races, and barring BCs there is just nothing that can stand toe to toe. How about 15 thors, 10 helions and like 2 workers per thor issued with move on it and auto-repair? That's 140 supply . I'd like to see a zerg composition that beats that except in a real game scenario except broodlords.
some fungal growth + ultra later, then spawn another wave of fungal + ultra. Some guy tried to mass thor in GSL against fruitdealer.
Fruit dealer dealt him some fruit he couldn't refused.
|
On October 13 2010 07:48 Raiden X wrote:I LOVE U TY ME---> <------ U Lol. Glad you enjoyed GoOdy's style as much as I did. Definitely my favorite Terran player to watch after seeing those matches.
I found a few more (Updated replay pack here):
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157093.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157094.jpg)
In one of the recent Day9 dailies Gretorp was on and Day9 asked him what he thought about tanks post-nerf. He said something to the effect of "there's no good time to get them."
But GoOdy seems to have found a sturdy, flexible mech opening that still includes harassment options. It doesn't have the potential to quickly kill off the opponent like mass barracks play does, but imo this leads him into a stronger mid-late game than a MMM-centered army could.
|
On October 13 2010 08:46 Shlowpoke wrote: Lol. Glad you enjoyed GoOdy's style as much as I did. Definitely my favorite Terran player to watch after seeing those matches. I found a few more (Updated replay pack here): In one of the recent Day9 dailies Gretorp was on and Day9 asked him what he thought about tanks post-nerf. He said something to the effect of "there's no good time to get them." But GoOdy seems to have found a sturdy, flexible mech opening that still includes harassment options. It doesn't have the potential to quickly kill off the opponent like mass barracks play does, but imo this leads him into a stronger mid-late game than a MMM-centered army could.
You mean that a 2250 player is able to beat a 1500 player with a weaker strategy. That's not exactly an earth-shattering development. 1500 just doesn't cut it. Shit, I'm 1500 and I've never played an RTS before and I play the game maybe twice a week - not exactly progamer or high-level by any stretch of the imagination. You'd have to show him beating a comparably-skilled opponent who played well and used an effective strat, to persuade anyone here.
|
On October 13 2010 07:21 VoirDire wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:12 Kryptix wrote:
200/200 Terran armies can't beat a T3 200/200 army from either of the other races... I've tried every combo of mech and bio with ghost and raven support vs the other two races, and barring BCs there is just nothing that can stand toe to toe. How about 15 thors, 10 helions and like 2 workers per thor issued with move on it and auto-repair? That's 140 supply . I'd like to see a zerg composition that beats that except in a real game scenario except broodlords.
Flank with roach/ultra and it's a win, or at least a trade in your favor. T has to focus-fire the ultras, leaving the roaches free to move in and focus-fire the thors. 2 SCVs on auto-repair won't do shit when the thors are being one-shot by a clump of roaches. Any T turtling and building up a thor/hellion army has left you free to expand across the map, so you should have at least a one-base advantage on him, probably two. Regenerate your army and push while his numbers are small, collect your points.
|
I've watched all the Goody reps from the replay pack except for the one where he played Sjow, I'm not even gonna bother watching someone off race to consider a strategy.
1 game he got absolutely wrecked by a bunch of speedrays (Delta Quadrant)
1 game the P just threw his blink stalkers into his sieged tanks. Not really sure what to think about that one.
1 game MaNa just played absolutely horribly and let Terran walk all over the map and siege in front of his base (Its DO even)
The strategy is absolutely horrible and Goody is mediocre at best. I know he's #1 in EU ladder, but that doesn't say anything. I don't see any efficiency or good timings or whatever. The Protosses just played absolutely horribly.
|
On October 12 2010 11:56 Raiden X wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:47 iEchoic wrote:I don't think so. Terran can't handle either infestor+ultra or ht/zealot/stalker spam lategame cost-effectively. In addition, zerg can out-macro terran when left undisturbed, and protoss' anti-harassment lategame with mass cannons and templar warping in anywhere on the map is incredibly hard to break. Tanks are terrible since the patch in TvP so map control is hard to establish and and ultras already beat tanks. Terran needs to successfully apply pressure throughout the game to come out even in the lategame. There was a drewbie quote that I agree with about TvP lategame, essentially about how protoss units are more cost effective later on and the t player needs to harass and out-macro early on to be on even footing. I don't think there is any reason to play a Terran style that macros without aggression. + Show Spoiler +See the GSL finals for examples. Well Tanks don't seem to bad when you have hellions with pre igniter. The only issue i have with TvP mech is Voids. Maybe what we need is for NaDa to pull off a crazy Terran Macro style like he did in BW. And against Zerg, NOBODY can out Macro a zerg even in BW. Terran if he meched would push off off to bases with a massive army and force a Third and possible fourth in one push.
I think it would be cooler to see iLoveOOV do it, he was a macro beast.
|
Pretty much every terran that I've hit on the ladder in the past week does a 1 base timing attack with 4 banshees + marines, raven + banshees + marines, marine + tank + ghost or some variation. There is no scouting or adapting done for the first 10 minutes; he hits however many units and then just a-moves into the enemy base. Sounds like it wouldn't work, right? wrong. I've seen almost no creativity or exploration on the ladder from terrans. It might be true that terran is capable of playing a macro game, but these timing attacks are so strong and so easy to execute that these players are fighting having to play one.
|
I rarely have problems late game as Terran (low-mid Diamond). My problems seem to the 1 base all ins from my opponent, or epicly bad harass by myself. I normally feel like if I survive the first 10 minutes of play, I've got the game in the bag. But I guess this just could at the low-mid diamond level.
|
I've have yet to find out a solution for TvP lategame. Like what many posters have said, TvP revolves around in your face tactics since Tanks are a joke. Tanks are hardcountered by pretty much every Protoss unit and ability (Zealots, Blink Stalkers, Pheonix, Voidrays, Immortals etc). I'm a BW Terran player and i believe its quite disgusting how MMMG is currently the only endgame option vs Protoss.
|
On October 14 2010 03:10 Musiq wrote:
I've have yet to find out a solution for TvP lategame. Like what many posters have said, TvP revolves around in your face tactics since Tanks are a joke. Tanks are hardcountered by pretty much every Protoss unit and ability (Zealots, Blink Stalkers, Pheonix, Voidrays, Immortals etc). I'm a BW Terran player and i believe its quite disgusting how MMMG is currently the only endgame option vs Protoss.
Agreed, I am a BW terran player too and it sucks how they killed mech. yes terran was hard to play in BW, but atleast you did have a strong capability with your army
your right the entire toss army is aimed around countering tanks lol. pretty sad, but i am sticking to the 1 base all ins and it works sometimes. better than never, which going late game against alot of colossus never works lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
