|
On October 13 2010 04:11 Jermstuddog wrote:
Yeah, I do main Zerg, I'm sitting around 1530 rating right now.
When I'm feeling frisky, I play T, becaused they're my 2nd favorite race, my rating might drop down to 1400 on days I play Terran.
If that's not high enough, I'm sorry, I figured being better than 97% of SC2 players would be enough...
At any rate, I can get you a replay of me beating a ~1500 rating protoss with about 8 Tanks and 30 hellions (3 bases each), but I'm sure you'd never deliver on your million dollars anyway.
Don't really care to get into your argument but I just want to point out real quick that 8 tanks/30 hellions isn't close to a max army. 3 base isn't late game to me. I'm thinking more like just about every available expo taken with max armies and banking resources.
|
On steppes of war (the map I have my replay on) that is 60% of the bases, we were each poking at our respective golds, but neither had the means to secure it.
Unfortunately, I can't give a max army made up largely with hellions, I figure anything over 30 of them is a bit excessive.
|
On October 13 2010 04:22 Jermstuddog wrote:
On steppes of war (the map I have my replay on) that is 60% of the bases, we were each poking at our respective golds, but neither had the means to secure it.
Unfortunately, I can't give a max army made up largely with hellions, I figure anything over 30 of them is a bit excessive.
Indeed it would be. Just about anything can be done in the early to mid-game.
The point still stands, however. 60% is not 100% or even 90% and besides, the max army requirement should be accepted as conditional for the late-game. I've seen plenty of games that take all expos, even on SoW (actually it's surprisingly frequent on that map).
|
On October 13 2010 01:06 Yaotzin wrote:
Other than ghosts, there's nothing to add to a MMM ball to make it stronger. P gets lots of new toys as they tech up, that make their basic zealot/stalker ball stronger and stronger and stronger. T mostly just has to make a bigger MMM ball. At a certain point, that's not enough anymore.
I don't play Terran, but... what about ravens and vikings? PDD?
Also, I know nobody uses it anymore, but seeker missile WOULD one shot HT grouped closely together (they're too slow to dodge).
Lastly, if you're already transitioning to vikings and ravens to help combat colossi and stalkers, why not get battlecruisers? It really sounds like a lot of Terran players just say:
P gets a lot of new toys as they tech up because a straight zealot/stalker ball really struggles against upgraded bio with or without medivacs. It's not that T doesn't have tools to deal with colossi and high templar, it's just that I rarely see Terrans using all the options at their fingertips.
|
On October 13 2010 04:11 Jermstuddog wrote:
Yeah, I do main Zerg, I'm sitting around 1530 rating right now.
When I'm feeling frisky, I play T, becaused they're my 2nd favorite race, my rating might drop down to 1400 on days I play Terran.
If that's not high enough, I'm sorry, I figured being better than 97% of SC2 players would be enough...
At any rate, I can get you a replay of me beating a ~1500 rating protoss with about 8 Tanks and 30 hellions (3 bases each), but I'm sure you'd never deliver on your million dollars anyway.
If you seriously think 1500 protoss is good you're direly mistaken. I regularly play 1600 people on ladder and jesus I get the most stupid shitty all ins thrown at me. 1500 rating really is the new 1000 rating.
8 Tanks and 30 hellions isn't lategame. 30 minutes into the game with 150+ armies is late game. Stop spewing your nonsense in this thread when EVERY SINGLE PROGAMER disagrees with you (for IdrA go to post 1, TLO said in TvP there isn't a late game transition, you have to stick to MMMG for the entire game, etc.)
If you want to continue sticking to your opinion I recommend you post some replays of a Terran pro beating a seemingly equally skilled protoss on comparable economies past the 30 minute mark. I haven't seen a single TvP where the T wasn't either very far ahead or much better than the Protoss.
The game is so retardedly balanced and Blizzard still sit on their asses thinking their TvP 49,6% statistic shows balance, when every single Protoss cries about early game imbalance and Terrans get absolutely buttfucked in late game.
|
On October 13 2010 04:48 Toxigen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 01:06 Yaotzin wrote:
Other than ghosts, there's nothing to add to a MMM ball to make it stronger. P gets lots of new toys as they tech up, that make their basic zealot/stalker ball stronger and stronger and stronger. T mostly just has to make a bigger MMM ball. At a certain point, that's not enough anymore. I don't play Terran, but... what about ravens and vikings? PDD? Also, I know nobody uses it anymore, but seeker missile WOULD one shot HT grouped closely together (they're too slow to dodge). Lastly, if you're already transitioning to vikings and ravens to help combat colossi and stalkers, why not get battlecruisers? It really sounds like a lot of Terran players just say: P gets a lot of new toys as they tech up because a straight zealot/stalker ball really struggles against upgraded bio with or without medivacs. It's not that T doesn't have tools to deal with colossi and high templar, it's just that I rarely see Terrans using all the options at their fingertips.
How would you get close enough to seeker without getting feedbacked? BCs are horrible for the same reason plus it's just inviting void rays.
|
On October 13 2010 04:55 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 04:11 Jermstuddog wrote:
Yeah, I do main Zerg, I'm sitting around 1530 rating right now.
When I'm feeling frisky, I play T, becaused they're my 2nd favorite race, my rating might drop down to 1400 on days I play Terran.
If that's not high enough, I'm sorry, I figured being better than 97% of SC2 players would be enough...
At any rate, I can get you a replay of me beating a ~1500 rating protoss with about 8 Tanks and 30 hellions (3 bases each), but I'm sure you'd never deliver on your million dollars anyway. If you seriously think 1500 protoss is good you're direly mistaken. I regularly play 1600 people on ladder and jesus I get the most stupid shitty all ins thrown at me. 1500 rating really is the new 1000 rating. 8 Tanks and 30 hellions isn't lategame. 30 minutes into the game with 150+ armies is late game. Stop spewing your nonsense in this thread when EVERY SINGLE PROGAMER disagrees with you (for IdrA go to post 1, TLO said in TvP there isn't a late game transition, you have to stick to MMMG for the entire game, etc.) If you want to continue sticking to your opinion I recommend you post some replays of a Terran pro beating a seemingly equally skilled protoss on comparable economies past the 30 minute mark. I haven't seen a single TvP where the T wasn't either very far ahead or much better than the Protoss. The game is so retardedly balanced and Blizzard still sit on their asses thinking their TvP 49,6% statistic shows balance, when every single Protoss cries about early game imbalance and Terrans get absolutely buttfucked in late game.
Yup, inflation. We'll all be 10k soon just by maintaining 50% winrate 'cause of bonus pool.
|
I think terran macro is harass into an army comp that will be superior than the protoss/zerg.
In TvZ, hellion thor crushes mutaling which is very popular for Zergs in the MU.
And TvP its all about where you engage armies in the first place.
|
On October 12 2010 14:01 Everlong wrote:Im amazed, how GoOdy actually go mech every game against P and he makes it look so easy. However, he is probably the only one Ive seen meching against P in like month.
So, I did a quick replay search and created a mini GoOdy TvP Mech Replay pack. These are all post-tank nerf btw.
Here it is:
GoOdy TvP Mech Replay Pack
GoOdy manages to play with mostly Hellion Tanks but incorporates early-game marauder play and marauder drops while macroing up a scary tank force. In the mid game his Hellions keep the Zealot count low or discourage them completely so the tanks can do their work. Be sure to check out the Desert Oasis game where he does a Hellion/Tank/Single Thor push in the midgame while taking the whole map.
MouzHasu does something interesting against him: No Zealots and mostly Stalkers. This makes the Hellions useful only for harassment, but got me thinking: Hellion-Tank-Raven with PDD would be pretty scary. Air would be strong against it, but if you slow push while building turrets I think it could be pretty effective.
|
On October 13 2010 05:12 Shlowpoke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 14:01 Everlong wrote:Im amazed, how GoOdy actually go mech every game against P and he makes it look so easy. However, he is probably the only one Ive seen meching against P in like month. So, I did a quick replay search and created a mini GoOdy TvP Mech Replay pack. These are all post-tank nerf btw. Here it is: GoOdy TvP Mech Replay PackGoOdy manages to play with mostly Hellion Tanks but incorporates early-game marauder play and marauder drops while macroing up a scary tank force. In the mid game his Hellions keep the Zealot count low or discourage them completely so the tanks can do their work. Be sure to check out the Desert Oasis game where he does a Hellion/Tank/Single Thor push in the midgame while taking the whole map. MouzHasu does something interesting against him: No Zealots and mostly Stalkers. This makes the Hellions useful only for harassment, but got me thinking: Hellion-Tank-Raven with PDD would be pretty scary. Air would be strong against it, but if you slow push while building turrets I think it could be pretty effective.
I think pure Mech (w/ Ghost) is viable in TvP if you make sure you scout often (you should have plenty of scans since you don't need mules) for any air transition (pre build at least 1-2 Starports, when you see Air Transition, swap a reactor to the Starport and mass Vikings). It's just ALOT harder to do than pure bio aggressive play, so hardly anyone does it. Bio is just stronger early-mid game. But Mech I believe is better in the late game and allows for macroing games in TvP where you split the map in half.
|
|
|
Yeah lots of dumb posts, You cant go mech against toss. the void ray switch makes it too easy. and you cant afford vikings with mech. Ive tried many times and let me tell you, every toss knows how to void ray switch.
Jungle basin is not a legit mech map, because the third is hard to take which means having to spread your units out.
seeing lots of bad opinions but i am a 1450 terran diamond player.
noveyek and iechoic made good posts with good info.
of course terran cannot play a macro style, as many terrans have learned, certainly i was a macro terran from BW so i learned the hard way, costing me alot of losses.
All of the crying of terran imba comes from players like toss players or zerg players from BW who sort of want their imba fast DT's back or their imba muta stack back, but really these races have the late game advantage and can play to the late game. If the proposed terran nerfs go through, i am switching to toss because i do prefer a macro late game style.
Once the toss has late game 8 colossi, the terran cant do much. if he has enough vikings, he doesnt have enough bio units on the ground.
I have learned that you should just play 1 base all in against both races, unless its verse zerg and its a good map to go mech like zel naga or steppes.
Against toss, i always go with a 3 rax push and try to break the protoss before they get into the mid game and get that first colossi out. that comes @ about the 10 minute mark if they are going fast colossi. So i try to push out @ 9 minutes and if my push fails, i just gg and leave. You can try to play a macro game, but you run into the colossi. and if your opponent is tricky and techs to both patterns and goes with a switch to HT, god help you lol. SO the best thing to do against toss is to realize they are imba late game, and go for that 1 base all in. reaper cheese is brilliant as well against toss.
against zerg, you really have to harass and stop them from macroing up. the zerg has so many weapons, banelings are just brutal against T, and the T has no real way to prevent the Blings from reaching his marines. when combined with muta harrass, its hard for T to leave his base.
SO bottom line is against both races, you want to go one base all in, with some kind of gimmick.
the GSL really reflected this terran reality I feel.
|
On October 12 2010 12:59 zbedlam wrote:Yes terran can play macro style, see http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2007The reason why the majority of terrans choose not to play macro style is terran 1-2 base play is extremely effective and they can often end games quicker than if they were to play a macro style game.
erm... idra won that
|
200/200 Terran armies can't beat a T3 200/200 army from either of the other races... I've tried every combo of mech and bio with ghost and raven support vs the other two races, and barring BCs there is just nothing that can stand toe to toe.
Problem with BCs is corruptors hard counter them, and vikings get killed by hydras, so corruptor broodlord hydra is a quick switch at that point to kill you, or upgraded ultras just shrug off the damage and kill your base. Thors are the only counter to ultras, but broodlords counter thors hard, and hydras counter them for cost if massed. By the time you get 200/200, the problem is even if your comp wins and kills 2 bases, they are still on 5-6 hatcheries on 3-4 bases and will tech switch and kill you before you can produce a counter.
TvP, nothing is really viable except for MMM+G+R because voidrays hard counter everything else Terran can make so if your marine count ever drops, gg. Banshees and Thors add some damage and tanking but your primary army will always have to be bio, and then its just a matter of ghost v templar. I can win if I'm +1 base on the protoss but their drops are just as effective if not more so because they can storm an entire mineral line in seconds while I can't reinforce in time even MMM. After that I produce workers too slow and tend to fall behind eventually unless my harass is even more successful.
|
Yeah i see alot of protoss answering terran questions, inviting them to play macro and come to the late game. even going as far as to suggest terran go mech against toss. It is kind of funny, have you ever heard of the concept of 2 wolves and a chicken voting on whats for dinner?? lol kind of whats going on here.
I am a terran, my advice is, sure play a few macro games against toss and a few macro games against zerg, and see how you fair. then come back and study the 1 base strategies, generally i find my win % is much better when i open harrass and then do a mid game timing push... or just go no harrass and early all in. just as i mentioned in my last post, you can see this style reflected in the GSL.
Look at ensnare, this guy is a top terran player and always goes for a 1 base play against protoss, even on a huge macro map like delta quadrant.
|
On October 12 2010 14:49 iamke55 wrote:
IMO terran must be played aggressively in SC2 or they will have a lot of trouble against both zerg and protoss. They don't have an endgame army anything close to the 3/3 mech from Brood War. Unit tester may or may not favor terran armies, but the ability of protoss to warp in 75 energy templars anywhere with pylons, and the ability of zerg to rebuild their army in a minute, means that terran lacks the ability to sustain a powerful lategame push.
true, great post. there is alot of understanding here and this is good advice
|
On October 13 2010 06:00 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 12:59 zbedlam wrote:Yes terran can play macro style, see http://sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2007The reason why the majority of terrans choose not to play macro style is terran 1-2 base play is extremely effective and they can often end games quicker than if they were to play a macro style game. erm... idra won that
LOL, even when they try to give us links to a terran macro game, they are linking to games where terran lost.
|
i played Terran macrostyle against Protoss on some maps almost exclusivly.
It works out pretty well,
i usually play rax, reactor, CC, fact, rax teclab teclab
and pump out tanks marines marauder (usually at least one bunker - depends on the map) to defend my exp against 4warpgateallins etc.
after my exp is up and running, I
a) use the reactor rax to scout for his tech, build up 3 more fact and an armory and get thor/tanks/hellion/ghost if he goes HT
b) same if he goes colossi, but less thors and more vikings
c) if he goes voidrays i stick to bio. voidrays are not the best choice in my oppinion. in open field or if you attack him they are pretty bad against marines with stim.
simultaniously getting my thirdbase
I usually push out a little, not up to his base while getting my third.
+ constant hellion harrasement at his bases if there are no cannons etc.
gaining mapcontrol isnt too hard with hellions and if he builds cannons i usually add some marauders back into my play. (because he got less zealots. and my hellions aren't that effective against stalkers etc.)
tank/thor/ghost is always the backbone of my army. And upgrading is very important.
|
On October 13 2010 03:59 tehemperorer wrote:
I think the Terran metagame is underdeveloped because of the efficiency of their early game harasses. Any of their harass is like the 4 gate; easy to pull off and can potentially win the game. However, recently players have been trying to do every gimmick in the Terran arsenal, and never winning with one. They then go to the next gimmick, and if that doesn't work, on to the next gimmick. About 12 minutes in, most of these types of players don't know what to do with themselves, so they end up losing even though they are on the same amount of bases as their opponent.
Terran army compositions can be tweaked much better imo, but like I said, the development is behind. Look at TLO's new play in TvT... It's not tank/viking/bio, its hellion/thor, and it makes sense too. Hellions for bio, thors for mech. If T were so worried about mass gateway armies in PvT backed by HT, they know they can go ghost and they know to scout ahead to get off the EMP, to snipe during the battle, to make the P waste storms, etc.
As a P player, I thought to myself, "cool, just get 3 void rays and a small gate army, kill off all the marines in the first engagement, and win with voidrays." It works really well. T players try this: Marine/Marauder/Viking/Banshee... My only anti air in PvT are stalkers which don't do too well against an equal number of banshees, so kill off all the stalkers.
T players need to think up new things that players haven't seen a billion times; Hellion drops, Marauder drops, tank drops, cloaked banshees... It was effective when I didn't come to expect that crap every single TvP I played. Maybe it isn't the race that's hurting T, it is how they are currently being played. Yeah, in the end game P is going to warp in a ton of Zeals and HT to replace lost units. Get reactored hellions late game, there's no excuse for not being able to handle Z/HT
i agree a lot with this. we Terrans havent tried hard enough yet to develop different, more macro- and lategame-oriented playstyles. think of bw tvz, which had a very stable metagame for years which said that once zerg gets out some defilers with lurkers or ultras and is not completely dead economically, he proceeds to roflstomp the terran. then, after several years of professional gaming, the metagame shifts and terrans discover that a mech transition starting in the midgame is possible and is beating the shit out of zerg lategame.
this example shows that in particular the lategame of an rts as complex as sc, which only rarely is reached on reasonably equal grounds, can hold much of undiscovered yet viable strategies.
i think idras assertion is correct in tendency, but i dont agree with the statement that terran cant be played in a more macro- and lategame-focused style at all. as a T player, i can say they cant be played in a totally passive way, but the early game advantage can be used to pressure the opponent and secure a macro advantage. from there on, a solid macro style can be just as effective as continuing the harass.
|
This thread makes a lot of sense of my experiences as terran. My play style is harass-macro and instinctively I feel like the longer the game goes on the less and less chance I have of winning (which is usually right). Only rarely have I won 45 minute games in tvp or tvz. 45min wins are common in tvt however.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
