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On October 12 2010 22:17 noD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 22:12 PanzerKing wrote:On October 12 2010 21:47 bobcat wrote:On October 12 2010 12:56 noveyak wrote:
I think idra makes a somewhat valid point. Terran units, excluding the battlecruiser are really not super impact units when used on other races. On the other hand, protoss and zerg both have very powerful units (broodlord/ultralisk/collosi/HT). Most of terran games against protoss revolve around MMM and then either ghost to counter HT or vikings to counter collosi. But the fact is terran would probably he happier delaying the HT/Collosi tech and continue using MMM rather than making units that specifically counter those.
TvZ is a bit different since the Thor is actually a pretty good unit in the matchup and really is not bad against too much (excluding Broodlords and maybe mass lings unsupported). However, the zerg macro mechanic is just much stronger in the sense that Zerg can tech switch really fast (from mutas to ultras), while Terran does not have this flexibility. This would show that Terran would probably be better off ending the game earlier or just making sure they have a lead when going in to the end game.
TvT I feel is a bit different. It is definitely very harass heavy in the beginning, but the macro game is generally more apparent here because building BCs after you have the air advantage generally wins you the game. So there is an advantage to late game macro.
It just seems like that although Terran could play a macro game, it is much more productive to abuse their mobility and strong harass mechanics so they have an advantage when it gets to the point where protoss and zerg can build units that are either much more powerful or produce powerful units at a much faster rate. I disagree in TvP you get plenty of powerful units by choosing to go into the upper tiers. Ghosts wreck Templar play if you are on the ball, Ravens are one of the greatest casters in the game, and Siege Tanks are still a great unit. Even with the nerf to their damage vs. light, they still hit a pack of zealots for as much as they would a pack of stalkers due to the frame size of zealots. The reason a lot of terran players like to keep the game at 1.5 is because that is where they rule the game. TvP Marauders own first tier protoss pretty hard. Huh? Ghosts are a possible counter to HTs, if you land good EMPs, but they're not going to cut it once P is on 3 bases and can insta-warp 75 energy HTs. Ravens are a joke against P - one is ok early game for a PDD, but lategame feedback is just LOL and PDD doesn't do anything against a colossus/zealot army. Siege tanks are not great against P, they're not even good - any good T player will agree on this point. Gretorp even went so far as to call them "worthless" in TvP, if I remember correctly. They don't cut it against speedlots, blink stalkers or, surprisingly, Archons - I had to dramatically outmacro to squeeze out a win earlier using hellions+tanks+ghosts against Archon/Zealot, like 5 bases to 3 outmacro, and it was still a stupidly close game. Also, they soak up your gas and can't hit P's strong air units. T keeps the game at 1.5 because it's where they're strongest, yes. But it's not like they really have any other choice in a serious TvP. He called them useless, at wednesday's day 9... With all words... Tho 35 isnt a bad damage, the 3 seconds per shot is, it's not like the protoss will stay still for 30 seconds while he is being siege shoted =X
The argument that siege tanks are useless because units don't atnd still is kind of like saying colossi are useless because vikings can kill them or High Templar are useless because EMP has a longer range than psi storm. Siege tanks are supposed to force your opponent to either commit to a full fight or refuse to engage. They also make any area on the map with a ramp or other choke territory where you are at a disgusting advantage. Just because units can run away doesn't make siege tanks bad. Should I run away when your army is at the front of my base? Should I run away when you doom drop in the back? Mobility is something you trade for damage.
"I had to dramatically outmacro to squeeze out a win earlier using hellions+tanks+ghosts against Archon/Zealot, like 5 bases to 3 outmacro, and it was still a stupidly close game. Also, they soak up your gas and can't hit P's strong air units."
Why the hell didn't you have any marauders? Concussive shells + stimpacks + emp = free win.
Why are you using helion tank ghost against that build anyway. You have nothing to tank for your army. Thats like me going sentry stalker high templar against mass marauders.
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Vatican City State95 Posts
Whenever I find myself forced into a macro game vs a Zerg I instantly start going for Battlecruisers. Because once they have ultra's storming in no amount of tanks/thors ground units are going to stop them. With BC's I can handle them effectively and force the Zerg to tech switch to air but at that point my air dominance is to far ahead.
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On October 12 2010 23:52 kentonator wrote:
Whenever I find myself forced into a macro game vs a Zerg I instantly start going for Battlecruisers. Because once they have ultra's storming in no amount of tanks/thors ground units are going to stop them. With BC's I can handle them effectively and force the Zerg to tech switch to air but at that point my air dominance is to far ahead.
How are you goign to stop ultras from rampaging your base?
If you switch to BC*s take into account Z probably have armor upgrade and maybe even ultra armor. A slow-BC is never going to kill the ultras in time.
Also "time"; lategame you can pop a ton of corruptors to react to his BC's
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On October 12 2010 23:30 Payout wrote:
u do realize that colo has 9 range and with critical number of them marauders wont even get in range before they die ?
Define critical number. 10 colossi? 15? It takes of lot of those puppies to kill marauders before they get in range. Considering it takes 5 shots for a colossus to kill a marauder and stimmed marauders move really fast you would need an awful lot of colossi to burn them all down.
i do realize that colo has 9 range. However dedicating more than a specific amout of colossi to a ball is a disaster. The gas used to make each colossus is taking away from other units my army desperately needs, like stalkers to keep the colossi from all dying to vikings. In reality, it makes much more sense to use zealots and stalkers as a barrier to keep the colossi out of marauder range. Then I better hope the T player doesn't have vikings, because their bio ball can now mercilessly destroy my stalker/zealot ball.
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On October 12 2010 23:44 Grebliv wrote:
Reason mech is flimsy is that it's not the same isntagib machine it was, it's not that it's bad vs anything when fighting. It's just that it's while not neccessarily much worse than bw mech in direct confrontations it's really really immobile, something that spider mines used to help with a lot, hellions are good vs light but you can lose 2 pages of them to a handful of anything that isn't.
The reason it kind of worked now in sc2 is that it was just that cost effective, you could afford to spread your stuff a bit but now after people have figured out the appropriate counters and well the tank got nerfed quite a bit. It's a really shaky style.
bw recall in the back +mines = blue goo
sc2 blinkstalkers in the back = gg
Bio while great early/mid game does not really hold a candle to an untouched Z or P later on. There might be a reason T was the "horrible race (yes like 1 in 10 zotac finalists was a T on a good day)" until they beefed tanks up with the splash fix and made stim/conc/shields/speed take way less $$, they then now put tanks back in their place pretty much and the only difference to bio from those times is the time it takes to get those upgrades, hence all those pesky 1base pushes and harassment.
Terran can be played "macro" style but it has to have some pressure/harassment/specific timing it really seems.
I agree. The other races have to harass too though. Thats not a terran unique thing.
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@Yaotzin:
Everything you mentioned has nothing to do with late game units being weak and everything to do with early game units being beastly.
Marines are down right broken IMO. The only way to deal with them is area damage. There isn't a single unit in the game that can stand up to them straight up. This is much different from brood war and has a lot to do with terran power.
When going up against Zerg, Terran has the Thor, which destroys everything in the Zerg army. The only units Zerg has that are effective are the zergling, which gets countered by literally every other unit in the Terran army. And the Broodlord, which is too expensive, slow (both movement and DPS) and unweildy to make a huge impact on the game.
Against Protoss, you have the Ghost which is just scary. 1/2 to 2/3 of your army will start every fight with no shield, you have to spend an excessive amount of attention microing your HTs, or its GG right there, and this unit out ranges your casters, blends in with your opponents army, and can turn invisible if really needed.
I don't even need to mention the medivac, we all know how ridiculous that unit is.
All of these units are T3 quality units and are available within the first 10 minutes of the game.
But you don't see Terran players hinging on any one unit excessively. Marines and Marauders can muscle through anything P or Z can make in the equivalent tier and T has all the best early game all-ins. (All this hinges on how strong bio is)
The way the game breaks down in TvX is the terran player techs when he wants, and the other guy has to balance tech, economy, and army size in perfect portions, assuming he doesn't screw up scouting.
I understand they wanted bio in every T army, but damn...
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yeah i really do not like late game vs protoss. I find it to be nearly impossible unless i emp like 20 templars luckily and the protoss just hasnt gone collosi lol
they need to make tanks better vs protoss basically 
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On October 13 2010 00:05 Jermstuddog wrote:
Marines are down right broken IMO. The only way to deal with them is area damage. There isn't a single unit in the game that can stand up to them straight up. This is much different from brood war and has a lot to do with terran power.
This applies to every ranged unit...I do believe things like dark swarm/plague/lurkers were used to stop big balls in BW, so yeah it's exactly the same.
Against Protoss, you have the Ghost which is just scary. 1/2 to 2/3 of your army will start every fight with no shield, you have to spend an excessive amount of attention microing your HTs, or its GG right there, and this unit out ranges your casters, blends in with your opponents army, and can turn invisible if really needed.
Why all the theorycrafting? In actual games, P players have proven that ghosts simply don't shut down HTs.
I dunno why they hide in armies for you. Turn on health bars? That purple bar is really pretty obvious :0 Plus the game doesn't let you feedback units without energy, so you can just spam it until you hit his ghost.
But you don't see Terran players hinging on any one unit excessively. Marines and Marauders can muscle through anything P or Z can make in the equivalent tier and T has all the best early game all-ins. (All this hinges on how strong bio is)
Er, no, not really. Anyway this is about T early game strength, which is not in dispute.
The way the game breaks down in TvX is the terran player techs when he wants, and the other guy has to balance tech, economy, and army size in perfect portions, assuming he doesn't screw up scouting.
I understand they wanted bio in every T army, but damn...
And then, if they balance it right and get to the late game, they lol all over the poor Terran who got no new toys to play with.
You need to get over your "terran is sooooo op" mindset. They are, but it's purely an early game thing. If you can survive in decent shape to late game, they really start to suck a bit.
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Unfortunately, I main Zerg, and thors and marines maintain their power all the way through the late game, well after ultras have shown up.
There is no "hard tech switching" as these two units counter everything except large amounts of broodlords, which are just as immobile as thors and tanks and get SUPER hard countered by a handful of vikings.
TvP is a little different, but by no means is T weak in the late game.
The typical 40 min TvP I see:
Marine, marauder, ghost, medivac, maybe some vikings or a raven
Vs
Zealot, sentry, stalker, immortal, colossus, high templar, archon, observer, possibly some void rays or warp prisms
The complaint seems to be that a MMM ball w/ ghosts can't win vs protoss 40 min in to the game, no shit, they're using a much more diversified army.
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On October 13 2010 00:44 Jermstuddog wrote:
Unfortunately, I main Zerg, and thors and marines maintain their power all the way through the late game, well after ultras have shown up.
Marines  They're terribad against bling/infestor..
There is no "hard tech switching" as these two units counter everything except large amounts of broodlords, which are just as immobile as thors and tanks and get SUPER hard countered by a handful of vikings.
Thankfully you don't need them!
TvP is a little different, but by no means is T weak in the late game.
In disagreement with pretty much every T, pro and not.
The typical 40 min TvP I see:
Marine, marauder, ghost, medivac, maybe some vikings or a raven
Vs
Zealot, sentry, stalker, immortal, colossus, high templar, archon, observer, possibly some void rays or warp prisms
The complaint seems to be that a MMM ball w/ ghosts can't win vs protoss 40 min in to the game, no shit, they're using a much more diversified army.
Other than ghosts, there's nothing to add to a MMM ball to make it stronger. P gets lots of new toys as they tech up, that make their basic zealot/stalker ball stronger and stronger and stronger. T mostly just has to make a bigger MMM ball. At a certain point, that's not enough anymore.
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Upgraded hellions absolutely destroy zealots.
Banshees have started showing up lately to add their scary high dps.
Thors are like 4 marauders rolled into 1 for 100 more gas while costing 100 less minerals and 2 less supply, we all know how stupid SCV repair can get on thors.
The cliche complaint about Zergs being uninventive really does apply to Terrans in late game, but nobody gets there because they destroy early game so hard.
When they lose late game it must be because things are "unbalanced".
I don't buy it. Try using more than 4 units.
(I will admit that tanks seem a bit weak since the patch, I'm thinking +10 dmg vs armored would give them enough bite where they need it to see the light of day again.)
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On October 13 2010 01:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
Upgraded hellions absolutely destroy zealots.
Banshees have started showing up lately to add their scary high dps.
Thors are like 4 marauders rolled into 1 for 100 more gas while costing 100 less minerals and 2 less supply, we all know how stupid SCV repair can get on thors.
The cliche complaint about Zergs being uninventive really does apply to Terrans in late game, but nobody gets there because they destroy early game so hard.
When they lose late game it must be because things are "unbalanced".
I don't buy it. Try using more than 4 units.
(I will admit that tanks seem a bit weak since the patch, I'm thinking +10 dmg vs armored would give them enough bite where they need it to see the light of day again.)
See, this is the problem right here. You think of T units in a vacuum and say "WoW, what are T players talking about? They never use these units, but these units are really good!" What you should be doing is looking at the endgame units that your opponent will be fielding and realizing that, oh wait, those counter the units you think are so awesome.
Upgraded Hellions (not regular hellions) are useful for killing zealots, and that's about it. What's the most common complement to zealots in a mid-late game P army? Colossus. Colossus eat Hellions. Even if the colossus don't mow them down easily, after you kill his zealots, what do you do with the hellions? The point of the Zealots is to tank - once they've done their job, it's up to the Colossi and the other units to do the rest. If your plan is "I'm gonna make hellions to kill his zealots!" you're going to lose miserably, because Zealots are not the damage-dealing core of his army.
What about banshees? Yeah, their DPS is pretty good, even though they cost 3 supply. But what unit will P be making in addition to colossus, late-game? High templar. What unit absolutely destroys bunched-up banshees with storm, and cripples their HP with feedback? High Templar.
You know what else HT destroy? Thors. Oh, and void rays eat thors. As do carriers. And Immortals. Colossi easily outmicro them. In fact, pretty much every P unit except Sentries and Phoenixes do well against the Thor. What does the Thor do well against, in the P army? The phoenix. When are phoenixes fielded, in PvT? In the early game, not the late game.
See how much more logical our complaints are when you actually think of things in context, and not in a meaningless vacuum?
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Ugh, these responses went off the deep end after the 2nd page (like usual).
On October 13 2010 01:21 Jermstuddog wrote:
Upgraded hellions absolutely destroy zealots.
Banshees have started showing up lately to add their scary high dps.
Thors are like 4 marauders rolled into 1 for 100 more gas while costing 100 less minerals and 2 less supply, we all know how stupid SCV repair can get on thors.
The cliche complaint about Zergs being uninventive really does apply to Terrans in late game, but nobody gets there because they destroy eaaly game so hard.
When they lose late game it must be because things are "unbalanced".
I don't buy it. Try using more than 4 units.
Thors just get feedbacked, they don't work AT ALL. They are terrible vs chargelots even when they don't get feedbacked, and when they do, they're just completely terrible garbage because they only have (hp - energy) effective HP.
SCV repair against templar? They'll all die within 3 seconds of one storm.
Banshees get feedbacked and stack harder and are slower than mutas so storm rips them up. Templar hard-counter them.
None of these ideas work. I've tried them.
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On October 12 2010 23:44 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 22:17 noD wrote:On October 12 2010 22:12 PanzerKing wrote:On October 12 2010 21:47 bobcat wrote:On October 12 2010 12:56 noveyak wrote:
I think idra makes a somewhat valid point. Terran units, excluding the battlecruiser are really not super impact units when used on other races. On the other hand, protoss and zerg both have very powerful units (broodlord/ultralisk/collosi/HT). Most of terran games against protoss revolve around MMM and then either ghost to counter HT or vikings to counter collosi. But the fact is terran would probably he happier delaying the HT/Collosi tech and continue using MMM rather than making units that specifically counter those.
TvZ is a bit different since the Thor is actually a pretty good unit in the matchup and really is not bad against too much (excluding Broodlords and maybe mass lings unsupported). However, the zerg macro mechanic is just much stronger in the sense that Zerg can tech switch really fast (from mutas to ultras), while Terran does not have this flexibility. This would show that Terran would probably be better off ending the game earlier or just making sure they have a lead when going in to the end game.
TvT I feel is a bit different. It is definitely very harass heavy in the beginning, but the macro game is generally more apparent here because building BCs after you have the air advantage generally wins you the game. So there is an advantage to late game macro.
It just seems like that although Terran could play a macro game, it is much more productive to abuse their mobility and strong harass mechanics so they have an advantage when it gets to the point where protoss and zerg can build units that are either much more powerful or produce powerful units at a much faster rate. I disagree in TvP you get plenty of powerful units by choosing to go into the upper tiers. Ghosts wreck Templar play if you are on the ball, Ravens are one of the greatest casters in the game, and Siege Tanks are still a great unit. Even with the nerf to their damage vs. light, they still hit a pack of zealots for as much as they would a pack of stalkers due to the frame size of zealots. The reason a lot of terran players like to keep the game at 1.5 is because that is where they rule the game. TvP Marauders own first tier protoss pretty hard. Huh? Ghosts are a possible counter to HTs, if you land good EMPs, but they're not going to cut it once P is on 3 bases and can insta-warp 75 energy HTs. Ravens are a joke against P - one is ok early game for a PDD, but lategame feedback is just LOL and PDD doesn't do anything against a colossus/zealot army. Siege tanks are not great against P, they're not even good - any good T player will agree on this point. Gretorp even went so far as to call them "worthless" in TvP, if I remember correctly. They don't cut it against speedlots, blink stalkers or, surprisingly, Archons - I had to dramatically outmacro to squeeze out a win earlier using hellions+tanks+ghosts against Archon/Zealot, like 5 bases to 3 outmacro, and it was still a stupidly close game. Also, they soak up your gas and can't hit P's strong air units. T keeps the game at 1.5 because it's where they're strongest, yes. But it's not like they really have any other choice in a serious TvP. He called them useless, at wednesday's day 9... With all words... Tho 35 isnt a bad damage, the 3 seconds per shot is, it's not like the protoss will stay still for 30 seconds while he is being siege shoted =X The argument that siege tanks are useless because units don't atnd still is kind of like saying colossi are useless because vikings can kill them or High Templar are useless because EMP has a longer range than psi storm. Siege tanks are supposed to force your opponent to either commit to a full fight or refuse to engage. They also make any area on the map with a ramp or other choke territory where you are at a disgusting advantage. Just because units can run away doesn't make siege tanks bad. Should I run away when your army is at the front of my base? Should I run away when you doom drop in the back? Mobility is something you trade for damage. "I had to dramatically outmacro to squeeze out a win earlier using hellions+tanks+ghosts against Archon/Zealot, like 5 bases to 3 outmacro, and it was still a stupidly close game. Also, they soak up your gas and can't hit P's strong air units." Why the hell didn't you have any marauders? Concussive shells + stimpacks + emp = free win. Why are you using helion tank ghost against that build anyway. You have nothing to tank for your army. Thats like me going sentry stalker high templar against mass marauders.
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Of course mobility and range/damage are tradeoffs, the point I'm making is that you WILL NOT WIN against a good P if you give up map control and let him freely expand (by focusing on tanks.) If you try to push too early, your tanks won't have the numbers to stop him from rolling over your half-assed bio/tank ball. If you turtle and macro, he'll outexpand you and overwhelm you with sheer numbers, or a transition to game-ending tech (i.e. carriers.)
Tanks become exponentially more effective the more you add onto your army. Adding tanks to a bioball is less effective than just adding on more medvacs and more units - there's no synergy with upgrades and it just makes you less mobile. Also, it's silly expecting T's bio units to "tank" for your siege tanks. A couple of storms and guess what? You have to pull back your bio. Now there's nothing between your tanks and P's Zealots. The tanks start splashing each other, and now you're fucked. At least hellions can poke at his zealots and move out of the storms without taking much damage... but they're too useless against his immortals, stalkers and colossi to do much else.
Fact is, T doesn't really have anything that can "tank" storms or colossi such that siege tanks are a viable option in TvP. It just doesn't work in practice.
EDIT: Honestly, I just don't understand how people can let themselves get sucked into such absurd cognitive dissonance. Do you seriously believe that every single top T in the world is making the same mistake? Do you think that they're ALL wrong and you're right, even though you don't have a fraction of a percent of their skill and knowledge in playing TvP? The sheer audacity of that kind of attitude blows my mind.
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On October 13 2010 03:04 PanzerKing wrote:
See, this is the problem right here. You think of T units in a vacuum and say "WoW, what are T players talking about? They never use these units, but these units are really good!" What you should be doing is looking at the endgame units that your opponent will be fielding and realizing that, oh wait, those counter the units you think are so awesome.
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See how much more logical our complaints are when you actually think of things in context, and not in a meaningless vacuum?
Lol, this is the same argument Zerg players have been making since release in ZvT all game long (not just 20+ min in) and Terran players have been quick to call out the QQ. The best part is, you only end up in this situation when you've messed up, where Zerg is in that situation every time they play a Terran opponent.
Anyway, I've used banshees and hellions vs Protoss personally. Both kick ass. The thor is admittedly more situational, but by no means are they useless.
So much of the Terran race has gone unexplored because of the face-rolling style bio offers.
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On October 13 2010 03:29 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:04 PanzerKing wrote:
See, this is the problem right here. You think of T units in a vacuum and say "WoW, what are T players talking about? They never use these units, but these units are really good!" What you should be doing is looking at the endgame units that your opponent will be fielding and realizing that, oh wait, those counter the units you think are so awesome.
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See how much more logical our complaints are when you actually think of things in context, and not in a meaningless vacuum? Lol, this is the same argument Zerg players have been making since release in ZvT all game long (not just 20+ min in) and Terran players have been quick to call out the QQ. The best part is, you only end up in this situation when you've messed up, where Zerg is in that situation every time they play a Terran opponent. Anyway, I've used banshees and hellions vs Protoss personally. Both kick ass. The thor is admittedly more situational, but by no means are they useless. So much of the Terran race has gone unexplored because of the face-rolling style bio offers.
We're talking about top-level play, not lower leagues or games so simple that you could have beaten the opponent with any unit. Without a replay of successful Thor use against a good P player, you're just making things up to prop up a failed argument.
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On October 13 2010 03:29 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:04 PanzerKing wrote:
See, this is the problem right here. You think of T units in a vacuum and say "WoW, what are T players talking about? They never use these units, but these units are really good!" What you should be doing is looking at the endgame units that your opponent will be fielding and realizing that, oh wait, those counter the units you think are so awesome.
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See how much more logical our complaints are when you actually think of things in context, and not in a meaningless vacuum? Lol, this is the same argument Zerg players have been making since release in ZvT all game long (not just 20+ min in) and Terran players have been quick to call out the QQ. The best part is, you only end up in this situation when you've messed up, where Zerg is in that situation every time they play a Terran opponent. Anyway, I've used banshees and hellions vs Protoss personally. Both kick ass. The thor is admittedly more situational, but by no means are they useless. So much of the Terran race has gone unexplored because of the face-rolling style bio offers.
Didn't you just say you mained zerg? Why do you even feel like you're qualified to argue about this? Do you main zerg and play a high-level terran somehow?
I love banshees and hellions. I made an entire strategy about banshees and hellions becuase I love them so much. Once you get into the lategame they stop working as your core army.
You have never beaten anyone good at the game lategame with banshees and hellions, I would bet a million dollars on it.
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I think the Terran metagame is underdeveloped because of the efficiency of their early game harasses. Any of their harass is like the 4 gate; easy to pull off and can potentially win the game. However, recently players have been trying to do every gimmick in the Terran arsenal, and never winning with one. They then go to the next gimmick, and if that doesn't work, on to the next gimmick. About 12 minutes in, most of these types of players don't know what to do with themselves, so they end up losing even though they are on the same amount of bases as their opponent.
Terran army compositions can be tweaked much better imo, but like I said, the development is behind. Look at TLO's new play in TvT... It's not tank/viking/bio, its hellion/thor, and it makes sense too. Hellions for bio, thors for mech. If T were so worried about mass gateway armies in PvT backed by HT, they know they can go ghost and they know to scout ahead to get off the EMP, to snipe during the battle, to make the P waste storms, etc.
As a P player, I thought to myself, "cool, just get 3 void rays and a small gate army, kill off all the marines in the first engagement, and win with voidrays." It works really well. T players try this: Marine/Marauder/Viking/Banshee... My only anti air in PvT are stalkers which don't do too well against an equal number of banshees, so kill off all the stalkers.
T players need to think up new things that players haven't seen a billion times; Hellion drops, Marauder drops, tank drops, cloaked banshees... It was effective when I didn't come to expect that crap every single TvP I played. Maybe it isn't the race that's hurting T, it is how they are currently being played. Yeah, in the end game P is going to warp in a ton of Zeals and HT to replace lost units. Get reactored hellions late game, there's no excuse for not being able to handle Z/HT
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@bobcat
A few counterpoints:
You do realize that Terran cannot queue up units when they're sitting at 200/200 right? When T and P exchange armies at max, Protoss will be sitting on fully ready warpgates that can insta replenish 30 supply worth of units. Terran won't be getting anything out for another 30 secs and by then Protoss will be ready with another round. It'll be a race Terran cannot win. He MUST be ahead in any major exchange and that's exceedingly hard against Protoss endgame units.
Most of Terran's higher tech units are ineffective late game. Besides medivacs and vikings (and situationally ravens), there's really nothing else we can build that won't get slammed hard. BCs and Thors are vulnerable to Void Rays and HT feedback. Chargelots and HTs make tanks almost counter-productive. Banshees are non-viable once detection is properly placed. Why do you think in a lot of TvP pro replays, the T always seems to stick mostly with 1.5? It's not because it's OP. There's really no viable alternative. Alternatives are sub-par and in every situation I've seen, ghosts+mmm+medivac/viking would have done just as well or better. There is no other optimal deviation possible.
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Yeah, I do main Zerg, I'm sitting around 1530 rating right now.
When I'm feeling frisky, I play T, becaused they're my 2nd favorite race, my rating might drop down to 1400 on days I play Terran.
If that's not high enough, I'm sorry, I figured being better than 97% of SC2 players would be enough...
At any rate, I can get you a replay of me beating a ~1500 rating protoss with about 8 Tanks and 30 hellions (3 bases each), but I'm sure you'd never deliver on your million dollars anyway.
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EPT
