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On June 27 2012 15:02 Belial88 wrote:^ I don't agree with his advice... If you are losing to immortal/sentry all-ins, then quite simply you are either being too greedy or you are teching too hard. Immortal/sentry pushes will squash you if you go for a 5th and 6th gas, or if you go hydras/infestors/mutas. You cannot tech up against it. Just like a 1 base 4 gate robo immortal all-in, you just need to churn out a ton of roach/ling for a very long time. Submit a replay - as naniwa said, it's much easier to execute an immortal/sentry all-in than to defend it, and there has still yet to be a single game in the GSL where someone defended an immortal/sentry all-in. Regardless, you need to be churning out roach/ling from 8:30+, and you should be at least at 65 supply at the 8:00 mark. It's definitely hard to hold, but you need to engage out in the open, you can't let the engagement happen at your base, and you need to force lots of forcefields. My ZvP guide talks about it in-depth: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038Bearwidme's advice is completely wrong, and if you try to go hydras or burrow move or infestors or mutas, you will straight up lose to a strong immortal/sentry all-in.You can check out "Nestea's anti-immortal sentry build" thread for some discussion on the subject, but believe me when I say, bearwidme is giving completely incorrect advice. You just need better macro, and more roach/ling. As for scouting, seeing 4 gas total (2 at his nat), especially 2 that are taken 'late' (6:00+), that is usually indicative of an immortal opening, and you should be able to get an overlord in and see since he is just making sentries. Then, when your lair completes, you need to send an overseer in to see if he's either expanding behind it (1-5 gates, in which case you should get mutas or infestors or go attack with roach aggression) or all-inning (6+ gates), in which case you desperately need to mass as much roach/ling as you can. Show nested quote +
Probably a simple question, but I'm relatively new to SC2.
In ZvZ If I open a safe 14/14 what should I be doing against a hatch first opponent? I feel like going 14/14 although safer it just puts me behind a lot in drone count. Should I be trying a timing attack when I have speed and he doesn't? Is there no real way to catch up against good players?
I've searched for threads on this issue, but they only give the perspective of the hatch first player.
Thanks for any answers!
You are only ~5 drones behind with 14/14, it isn't that far behind. just take your expo at 21, remove drones off gas as soon as you get 100 for speed. You can make an initial 2-6 lings (the hatch first player will be forced to make just as many, so it wont put you behind at all) if you want, but just drone up and play normal. You aren't far behind, and you'll hit high masters before you hit anyone who can really exploit that 5 drone lead they have over you, and by that point, you'll know all the nuances of 14/14 and hatch first. But 14/14 is considered behind in terms of build orders against hatch first. Although you can probably build order win up to low masters if you just reactively stay on gas and do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. Bad advice, I know, but just saying. But on TDA, 14/14 is better than hatch first (no ramp to block with 2 queens, therefore cant drone up, and you end up behind in drones against 14/14). And probably everyone who does hatch first in lower levels doesnt drone properly or know how to hold aggression with it, or how to scout, so just 14/14 and watch your reps and see how your drone count fared. Really, don't worry about it, the poor macro of people in diamond and below is a MUCH bigger problem than the lead or gains by hatch first vs 14/14. Or, rather, the very minor macro mistakes even low masters make, like being 5 seconds late on the 36 overlord, is a bigger deal than the lead hatch first has.
Was he talking about all-ins?
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How do you guys deal with Warp Prism harass, specifically Zealot groups? I can't send lings because they'll just get bottled up and shredded, but roaches are a) usually at the front of my bases waiting to defend a push and b) pretty slow, meaning they generally won't arrive in time to prevent the death of a key tech structure.
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On June 28 2012 00:43 Hemingway wrote:
How do you guys deal with Warp Prism harass, specifically Zealot groups? I can't send lings because they'll just get bottled up and shredded, but roaches are a) usually at the front of my bases waiting to defend a push and b) pretty slow, meaning they generally won't arrive in time to prevent the death of a key tech structure.
You have to see it coming. If you have to react when zealots are getting warped in or already hitting stuff you will take damage.
Better overlord spread and minimap awareness 
If you do see it coming, 4-5 roaches can deal with it just fine. Don't forget to get your queen hitting it ASAP
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On June 27 2012 21:35 Bearwidme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 15:02 Belial88 wrote:^ I don't agree with his advice... If you are losing to immortal/sentry all-ins, then quite simply you are either being too greedy or you are teching too hard. Immortal/sentry pushes will squash you if you go for a 5th and 6th gas, or if you go hydras/infestors/mutas. You cannot tech up against it. Just like a 1 base 4 gate robo immortal all-in, you just need to churn out a ton of roach/ling for a very long time. Submit a replay - as naniwa said, it's much easier to execute an immortal/sentry all-in than to defend it, and there has still yet to be a single game in the GSL where someone defended an immortal/sentry all-in. Regardless, you need to be churning out roach/ling from 8:30+, and you should be at least at 65 supply at the 8:00 mark. It's definitely hard to hold, but you need to engage out in the open, you can't let the engagement happen at your base, and you need to force lots of forcefields. My ZvP guide talks about it in-depth: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038Bearwidme's advice is completely wrong, and if you try to go hydras or burrow move or infestors or mutas, you will straight up lose to a strong immortal/sentry all-in.You can check out "Nestea's anti-immortal sentry build" thread for some discussion on the subject, but believe me when I say, bearwidme is giving completely incorrect advice. You just need better macro, and more roach/ling. As for scouting, seeing 4 gas total (2 at his nat), especially 2 that are taken 'late' (6:00+), that is usually indicative of an immortal opening, and you should be able to get an overlord in and see since he is just making sentries. Then, when your lair completes, you need to send an overseer in to see if he's either expanding behind it (1-5 gates, in which case you should get mutas or infestors or go attack with roach aggression) or all-inning (6+ gates), in which case you desperately need to mass as much roach/ling as you can.
Probably a simple question, but I'm relatively new to SC2.
In ZvZ If I open a safe 14/14 what should I be doing against a hatch first opponent? I feel like going 14/14 although safer it just puts me behind a lot in drone count. Should I be trying a timing attack when I have speed and he doesn't? Is there no real way to catch up against good players?
I've searched for threads on this issue, but they only give the perspective of the hatch first player.
Thanks for any answers!
You are only ~5 drones behind with 14/14, it isn't that far behind. just take your expo at 21, remove drones off gas as soon as you get 100 for speed. You can make an initial 2-6 lings (the hatch first player will be forced to make just as many, so it wont put you behind at all) if you want, but just drone up and play normal. You aren't far behind, and you'll hit high masters before you hit anyone who can really exploit that 5 drone lead they have over you, and by that point, you'll know all the nuances of 14/14 and hatch first. But 14/14 is considered behind in terms of build orders against hatch first. Although you can probably build order win up to low masters if you just reactively stay on gas and do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. Bad advice, I know, but just saying. But on TDA, 14/14 is better than hatch first (no ramp to block with 2 queens, therefore cant drone up, and you end up behind in drones against 14/14). And probably everyone who does hatch first in lower levels doesnt drone properly or know how to hold aggression with it, or how to scout, so just 14/14 and watch your reps and see how your drone count fared. Really, don't worry about it, the poor macro of people in diamond and below is a MUCH bigger problem than the lead or gains by hatch first vs 14/14. Or, rather, the very minor macro mistakes even low masters make, like being 5 seconds late on the 36 overlord, is a bigger deal than the lead hatch first has. Was he talking about all-ins?
Yeah this is about immortal sentry All ins
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Does anyone have a replay of defending a +2 blink all-in? I am so lost against it.
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What's the best place to get build orders? Liquipedia always seems out of date. I'm specifically looking for ZvT ling/bling/infestor since I'm bored of mutas.
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On June 28 2012 00:43 Hemingway wrote:
How do you guys deal with Warp Prism harass, specifically Zealot groups? I can't send lings because they'll just get bottled up and shredded, but roaches are a) usually at the front of my bases waiting to defend a push and b) pretty slow, meaning they generally won't arrive in time to prevent the death of a key tech structure.
You should try and have overlords spread to see it before it comes as well as having 2-3 spines and spores near your bases to buy you time to get your roaches in position to kill the warping units. You should use your queen to aim the warp prism because it's the most important unit to kill there. Also, if at all possible, try and use your roaches to engage the zealots in chokes and place your queen behind them so that your queen can kill the prism from a safe distance and your roaches can easily kill the zealots one at a time taking minimal damage.
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On June 28 2012 04:15 PandaGuns wrote:
What's the best place to get build orders? Liquipedia always seems out of date. I'm specifically looking for ZvT ling/bling/infestor since I'm bored of mutas.
Your best bet would be to peruse pro replays to try and find one of them playing a style that you like and downloading the VOD or downloading their replay packs. You could also try checking Day9 archives for a specific replay, or even using the TL search function for replay packs and checking out the recent ones.
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On June 28 2012 02:09 Najda wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of defending a +2 blink all-in? I am so lost against it.
Upload a replay of your game and I'll give it a look. I have defended a lot of those all ins but don't have any replays on hand.
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On June 28 2012 02:09 Najda wrote:
Does anyone have a replay of defending a +2 blink all-in? I am so lost against it.
I recently watch a vod of it, not a replay but it's worth a watch. Go to youtube and search for
+ Show Spoiler +GESL Quarter Finals SlayerS_Alicia vs Empire.viOLet; there's a bo3 in one vid, go to 22:30 (game 2). violet defends it without knowing it's coming until maybe 10s before it hits, in toss-favored positions.
I can't figure out how to grab the link from my phone, sorry.
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On June 28 2012 00:47 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 00:43 Hemingway wrote:
How do you guys deal with Warp Prism harass, specifically Zealot groups? I can't send lings because they'll just get bottled up and shredded, but roaches are a) usually at the front of my bases waiting to defend a push and b) pretty slow, meaning they generally won't arrive in time to prevent the death of a key tech structure. You have to see it coming. If you have to react when zealots are getting warped in or already hitting stuff you will take damage. Better overlord spread and minimap awareness If you do see it coming, 4-5 roaches can deal with it just fine. Don't forget to get your queen hitting it ASAP
Best option is always to see it coming, best by far. But since I never see it coming myself, I have a few tricks to delay.
Premise: Always start by targeting the prism with your queen. Then a-move your army back.
Take drones and move them around the queen, hoping that the zeals auto target the queen (who is in attack mode and thus a priority over moving drones, similar to how a zealot defending a probe line will draw lings). The drone wall will keep the queen alive longer and help delay.
If that doesn't work or the queen falls, move all drones (and queen if still alive) away, then select one drone, move it out of the stack back towards the minerals of the base under attack, then attack move with it to draw the zealots towards your decoy. Micro the drone around, moving when zeals chase and a-moving when needed to keep them chasing. Get a second drone ready if needed
These only work against unmicro'd zealots, which accounts for most zealot only harass. Should he target a tech structure, I make the best of a bad situation and attack with drones until my army gets there (they get sent back to mining the moment lings show up), then send over all queens just in case I have a transfuse (easy to check if you just hotkey-select your queens for a moment). Don't be afraid to start rebuilding the tech structure at the natural if it is an important but cheap building (pool, RW).
Keep in mind these are minor tricks at best, and only to be used if you're still hitting injects and generally macroing properly.
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Does anyone have a replay of defending a +2 blink all-in? I am so lost against it.
In my ZvP guide there is a replay of myself beating it. You can also check out the "How to deal with DT's' replay as well, as it involves some blink all-innage. Basically, hold initial blink with roach/ling, have huge advantage. You can go hydras and end the game if you defended well enough, since he won't have any sentries, but you can do whatever with your lead.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038
What's the best place to get build orders? Liquipedia always seems out of date. I'm specifically looking for ZvT ling/bling/infestor since I'm bored of mutas
Check out my profile for ZvT and ZvP guides/builds. ZvT is in a lot of flux right now, and ZvP the build is really up to you (my guide talks about what everyone does though, in a range, but there are plenty of vods listed for you to pick a pro to imitate), but just watch recent DRG games for an example.
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On June 26 2012 17:18 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +he also has a video on holding a 10 pool drone all in. with 15 hatch 17 pool.
You aren't supposed to pull every drone, you are supposed to pull 8 of 12 drones. The 10 pooler also chased the guy's drones well after he denied mining. He could have easily put up his 2 spines once the drones left and he was in the base, and he wasn't rallying reinforcing lings, which is what closes the game, as he's mining but you aren't. he also put a spine down early, that he allowed to get focused (you are supposed to put with when lings arrive, not like he did where drones can kill it off). It's a cute hold, but what he did does not work. It only works if the 10 pooler is bad ;/ I have seen one way to hold a 10 pool 8 of 12 drones pulled, and that's by reacting to the single spine with double spines, but I'm not sure if it always works, and i dont think it works well if the opponent does 10 pool baneling (the other autowin 10 pool build).
Well, that is true but drones on hold position on the ramp means the lings cant defend the spine. Also, coLRyze was saying that 15 hatch 17 pool was too greedy. StoicRegret held 4 of the 10+ different versiond from coLRyze. i doubt it is because the 10 pooler is bad.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On June 28 2012 00:43 Hemingway wrote:
How do you guys deal with Warp Prism harass, specifically Zealot groups? I can't send lings because they'll just get bottled up and shredded, but roaches are a) usually at the front of my bases waiting to defend a push and b) pretty slow, meaning they generally won't arrive in time to prevent the death of a key tech structure.
In every game that I go 3+ bases, I always have 4-6 Spine Crawlers at each base and an Overseer above the Hatchery. This denies any Zealot/DT harass a Protoss player can do, as DTs cannot snipe the Overseer and Spine Crawlers eat Zealots.
If I spot Warp Prism play at any point (something like White-Ra Special Tactics), I immediately surround my Greater Spire with Spine Crawlers, as by that time, I have larvae and minerals to spare to make sure 6 Zealots don't hinder me too much.
Like all others suggested, target the Prism with the Queen, make a meat wall out of Drones (basically, target all your drones, click on the Queen and hit the Hold Position button when they are all hugging the Queen, you can also use this in ZvZ against Zergling runbys, unless Zealots are microed to kill the Drones, they will just run amok, as Queen has a bigger aggro than Hold Position workers). Or just pull several units to deal with it, don't attack into choke points with Zerglings (like between mineral lines), just pull the Zerglings back, Hold Position them and slowly poke them off with the Queen, if they come out, surround them and butt-rape them.
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Well, that is true but drones on hold position on the ramp means the lings cant defend the spine. Also, coLRyze was saying that 15 hatch 17 pool was too greedy. StoicRegret held 4 of the 10+ different versiond from coLRyze. i doubt it is because the 10 pooler is bad.
Sorry - saying he was bad was stupid of me. What I mean was, is that the 10 pooler made mistakes.
I'd be more than interested in testing it out. But I really don't think that the way he attempted to hold, would work. And you say yourself, he only holds 4 of 10 variations. So it still doesnt really conclusively say one way or another. He needs to hold it with hatch first every time. If different variations of 10 pool require different response, that's fine, but I do not believe that his method would work against a 8 of 12 drone pull with 1 spine and reinforcing lings with better decision making.
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NrGmonk closed my thread for some reason so i hope you guys can help me in this thread or via pm whatever
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=348532
Also besides the styles i asked for in my Thread, what do you think about the Spanishiwa style like how it was played months ago? Is it still viable in all current match up's?
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"Spanishiwa' style is soooo outdated, it was abandoned about a year ago because of the total lack of map control. 2 base lair is very all-innish in ZvP/ZvT (it's semi all-in in ZvZ, but we are seeing a resurgence in it due to people not knowing how to deal with fast 2 base infestor into 3 base ultra).
It was never viable in ZvZ, and it was never really viable in ZvP or ZvT, it was just sort of a proof of concept in ZvT/ZvP back when t/p always 1 or 2 base all-inned (you never see t/p 1 base all-in anymore) proving that queens are good, and some of what he did was incorporated into pro play, like making more than just 2 queens for 2 hatch. But fast third in zvp became standard a loooong time ago, and fast third is now the standard in zvt (only due to terrans now going 1 rax fe/cc first though, it's not really possible to do if T goes reactor hellion, the popular build a few months ago).
Like I said in my posts, you can check out my profile for an updated on how to play ZvT/ZvP. I'd say they are the most comprehensive guides on ZvP/ZvT on the internet. I might be a bit biased, but I think most would agree. There are plenty of other good guides out there, but I think I reference most of them in my guides, although they are more about a particular playstyle or build, and it sounds like you are looking for help in general on how to play zerg. although i think my guides might be a bit more advanced than what you are looking for, it should give you a basic idea on how the match-ups are played.
You can PM Monk about why he closed your thread, but it's pretty obvious why he did. You just sort of asked a very vague, general open-ended question. Basically, any thread opened without replays or vod evidence is going to get closed. If you want to open your thread again (and only after first asking monk, after showing him what you intend to post first), you would probably want to include replays, maybe replays of people like leenock or suhosin who do a lot of 2 base aggression, to preface your question (I want to all-in instead of play macro oriented, here I see suhosin do a roach/bane opening against MVP in the gsl with success, do you think zerg can be played like this with stability? I currently have a 50% win rate so far in platinum doing it, here are some replays of me doing it, et cetera).
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I'm having rediculous amounts of trouble in ZvZ; it is pretty much an insta-lose when I get matched with another zerg. I'm not sure what's going on; everyone says macro is paramount to a win up to ~diamond. I'm a platinum Zerg with a SQ of 80, inject gap of ~4s, and I never stop keeping drones in production.
And yet, when I watched my replays, I had unbelievable economic advantages but still lose to misc. things.
I was using the old standard; 14h 15p (18g) and I can defend early aggro and have synced injects. I have two base ling/bling trades with my opponent, with transition into roaches and then mutas. But I die in the long run, and I die to differing compositions like bling muta (responded with fungals, died anyways), roach hydra (I thought massed roach > hydras >.<) and stuff like this. I thought I was at the point where I could start using advanced unit compositions, but ling festor didn't work either.
What is my mindset supposed to be during ZvZs? Any tips would be extremely appreciated! Thanks!
Here's the replay I mentioned when I said I lost to roach/hydra. My spirit was shattered when I saw his race (chat log) and completely broken after I lost my third. Everything after is a half -assed attempt to scrape a game together. This complete degaf is the source of my failing to meet my normal 65+ at 8:00 macro benchmark. Those devastating supply blocks... http://drop.sc/209322
Note my obscene amount of floating resources, a phenomenon that happens to me only in ZvZ. I think I should have mineral sink'd this into spine crawlers and macro hatches. I'm always completely starve for gas for some reason. (My belief that more roaches > roach hydra came from a bit of unit testing that I did).
Also, my unique hotkey setup... Which will be fixed later.
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^I don't know how have you been testing that roach vs roach/hydra, but that is like totaly wrong. --..--
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On June 28 2012 16:01 Sapp wrote:
^I don't know how have you been testing that roach vs roach/hydra, but that is like totaly wrong. --..--
Um just to be clear roach/hydra is better then pure roach. Not sure if you are saying why he thought pure roach was better or if you are thinking pure roach is better, roach/hydra > pure roaches anyway.
A composition you should be going for is roach/infestor and then adding hydras or roach/hydra then adding infestors. I personally prefer roach/hydra then adding infestors as it's a strong composition zvz. roach/hydra/infestor will crush a roach/infestor army (or at least I do unless I was super behind all game)
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EPT
