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I'm having rediculous amounts of trouble in ZvZ; it is pretty much an insta-lose when I get matched with another zerg. I'm not sure what's going on; everyone says macro is paramount to a win up to ~diamond. I'm a platinum Zerg with a SQ of 80, inject gap of ~4s, and I never stop keeping drones in production. And yet, when I watched my replays, I had unbelievable economic advantages but still lose to misc. things. I was using the old standard; 14h 15p (18g) and I can defend early aggro and have synced injects. I have two base ling/bling trades with my opponent, with transition into roaches and then mutas. But I die in the long run, and I die to differing compositions like bling muta (responded with fungals, died anyways), roach hydra (I thought massed roach > hydras >.<) and stuff like this. I thought I was at the point where I could start using advanced unit compositions, but ling festor didn't work either. What is my mindset supposed to be during ZvZs? Any tips would be extremely appreciated! Thanks! Here's the replay I mentioned when I said I lost to roach/hydra. My spirit was shattered when I saw his race (chat log) and completely broken after I lost my third. Everything after is a half -assed attempt to scrape a game together. This complete degaf is the source of my failing to meet my normal 65+ at 8:00 macro benchmark. Those devastating supply blocks... http://drop.sc/209322Note my obscene amount of floating resources, a phenomenon that happens to me only in ZvZ. I think I should have mineral sink'd this into spine crawlers and macro hatches. I'm always completely starve for gas for some reason. (My belief that more roaches > roach hydra came from a bit of unit testing that I did). Also, my unique hotkey setup... Which will be fixed later.
yea find that roach/hydra just straight up kills someone in an even game if they go infestors before maxing out. It didn't really happen that way until I got to about 1k+ masters, even when I was around 900 points I went infestors every game and handled roach/hydra with ease. It wasn't until people started to macro better that I was straight up dying, even when the opponent droned up to 75, wasn't like they were doing some sort of all-in at all.
You should try 15hatch instead. The 'zerg openers thread' says 14 hatch is the best, and I followed it for the loongest time, but if you test it out in a YABOT (yet another build order tester), 15 hatch is like 70 minerals ahead around 30 supply, but it's consistently better.
Standard build in zvz is 15h/15p/15g, but if you are making 17gas work, go for it. That's a bit too greedy imo (unless my drone scout sees they went hatch first)m, but if you are good (im not), you can make it work. probably.
Also, if you are anything but 1k+ masters (last season, this season might be like 800 or so at the moment?) zerg, then you have serious deficiences in macro. Even low masters are known to have terrible macro (supply blocks in the first 8 minutes is unexcusable, there is no reason you shouldn't have perfectly timed overlords in the first 8 minutes - it's not good macro just to avoid supply blocks anymore either), so there is no way your macro is good. My point here is not to be mean, my point is that you thinking your macro is good, is bad. It means you fail to realize that your macro is the source of a lot of your losses, and results in frustration (evident in your post). If you say you good macro but are platinum, or diamond, or low masters, what's really going on is that you are tricking yourself into thinking your macro is good, and so when you lose, you fail to reflect properly on your losses, and so you just get mad and frustrated, rather than play more, and improve.
You have to understand how shitty you are, so that you can improve as a player. Does that make sense? You say in your opening lines your macro is just so great, but then at the end you say how bad your supply blocks are. You should never get supply blocked in the first 8 minutes, that's just as bad as forgetting to make a worker at the start. It's a big deal, even an overlord that is slightly late or early by 5 seconds can cost you 3-5 supply after a few minutes.
Anyways, watching replay. I dont mean to be mean here, it's just you gotta be tough on yourself, and until you are code s, nothing is excusable ^^
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On June 28 2012 16:09 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 16:01 Sapp wrote:
^I don't know how have you been testing that roach vs roach/hydra, but that is like totaly wrong. --..-- [...]or if you are thinking pure roach is better, roach/hydra > pure roaches anyway.
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A composition you should be going for is roach/infestor and then adding hydras or roach/hydra then adding infestors. I personally prefer roach/hydra then adding infestors as it's a strong composition zvz.
map dependent, if you plan to go throu some kind of a choke or narrow ramp in the future, you shuld be makeing infestors.
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1. Don't forget speed. Yours is soooo late. I like to hotkey my upgrade buildings on 6 - so spawning pool at start, and then later when I make evos, I remove pool and just make the evo's on 6, and then add spire/infestation pit, yadayadayada. You need to get speed asap.
If you are going to keep mining gas, you need to get banelings. Again, you need to get it asap. Track your gas better. If you want to be greedy, doing things like not getting speed or banelings immediately (which is standard and you kind of need speed, then banes and single spine so mass ling doesnt overrun you, you wouldve died here) you need to scout better, like have an overlord by his natural, constantly checking his base with a ling until he kills it (he didnt have speed either, but you didnt know that). If you can't scout for sure what's going on, you need to get speed, bane nest+spine asap (so like bane nest around 25ish) and then morph 4 banes (its greedier to make less, if you know what your doing make less, but... yea its risky) and continue droning. You would have just died to anything here. I'm sure you lose a lot to early aggression.
You also afford your protection with hatch first by your queens and transfuse, not units. You can't inject until you know the opponent went hatch first. Otherwise, you got to save up energy on both queens until you see an expo, and then only inject with 1 unless you are pro and REALLY know what you are doing, until your 4 banelings pop. Until then, hold position at the ramp.
2. Missed overlord at 33. Causes a supply block and bank of money..
3. Can't be late on injects. There is no excuse to be late on your 2nd round of injects. That's bad macro, thats the same as forgetting a drone at the start. later in the game, or during a battle, it's excusable. No reason to screw it up at this point in the game. Your opponent just gets ahead for free.
4. That was a weird third to take. Don't take that third, i get you want to be far away, but this is zvz, not zvt or zvp, so make it as close to you as possible unless you really know what you are doing. if you are going roach based vs mutas for example, you would want a more aggressive expo. but whatever, just take the closer third until you figure the game out more. That third is way too far from you.
Also, you take it too early. You should take it at 45 at the earliest in zvz, more like 50. going third before lair in zvz is standard play, but not an expo at 35.
5. you take your expo with ~4 banelings. You dont even have a baneling nest. the guy could have made a round of lings and killed you. Now, your expo turned out to be safe because the opponent was massing spines (massing static defense = you expand) but you didnt know that. You seriously need to scout better. Every decision you make needs to be "am i safe to do this?"
So before taking a third, you need a few banelings. Secondly, you can only take a third if the opponent is not doing a roach/ling all-in. This is very easy to scout for - roaches made before a third is taken, no gases taken at nat, very empty mineral line. But you dont do any of this. You ALWAYS need an overlord over his natural mineral line in zvz, or at least by his gas. a roach/ling all-in is the same as a 4 gate, basically - you cant take a third against a 4 gate.
6. Send the drone, then make it. You queue up the third with a drone from the natural. That means 300 minerals that are tied up doing nothing for about 15 seconds. Thats SO HUGE. That's a BIG DEAL! That's the same as being supply blocked for about 20 seconds! This is HUGE! 300 minerals is a LOT! EVERY building you make, send the drone, then make it when it arrives. You did a good job of this with your natural, you send your 14th drone egg to the natural, bam, its 300 minerals when it arrives. Why did you not do this with the third? Its not late enough to excuse such a huge mistake.
really. big deal. you are plat now, this isnt bronze anymore. dont do that. you are better than that.
7. why are you making a third queen in zvz? that doesnt make sense.
8. you are banking 400/240 at the 35 supply, 6:00 mark, you have 7 unused larva, your injects are okay, but you sent that lthird drone from your nat, and been on 35 suppply for forever. You should be supply blocked, but your macro is so poor that you arent even making units. So then you think your macro is good because you think you avoid supply blocks, but really, you just never make anything, so you never gert supply blocked. See the vicious cycle here? You need to be way more active, any other player would be much higher in supply by now, by at least 10-15 supply.
So you really are banking about 700/240 at this point in the game. This is not okay at all. I dont know why you think your macro is good, its not , you never make units and never scout. huge problems here.
9. you make lair way too early, probably as a result of you banking so much gas and all this weird play. you should get an evo chamber and +1, and then a roach warren after youve started +1, with standard fast third play. You didnt scout you could get away with not doing this.
If you are taking a fast third, as a result, you cant get a quick lair. Zerg has a choice in all 3 match-ups - lair, or third base. You can't do both. You are doing both. As a result, your economy is crap. You wont be able to afford your mass speed roaches, or mutas, or enoguh spines to hold a sudden push, or infestors, or anything. You are just kiling yourself economically here.
Here' a standard bo for zerg:
speed, then bane nest + spine and 4 banes (if you want to be defensive macro that is)
~40 evo, +1`
~50 third (as long as you make sure no hatch tech 2 base roach/ling is coming), roach warren, 2nd gas
~60 lair, 3rd gas
if the opponent is doing a mass 2 base lair speedroach all-in (a really bad attack you never see, but just saying in order to keep you honest), you wont have speed in time against him, so you need to use your 3 base econ to just overwhelm it by making a lot more roaches and lings defensively, since you cant make spines since if you make spines he just goes around and kills another base since there are more than 1 choke to defend.
you cant get lair so quickly.
and you need +1 before roach warren, because you need +1 on roaches. before 50 supply, speedlings rape roaches, so you need a strong econ before going to roaches, and so you need +1 first.
Watch a few pro level zvz's, and you'll see how they do a fast third roach standard play. they dont do it like this, you are making things too quickly and as a result you have no money. well you have lots of money because you arent making anything, but you get the point.
10. You got gas at 17, but you finally spend your first gas 7:00 into the game at 50 supply. wtf. dont even bother getting gas if you arent going to use it, it cuts your drone production by a lot to get gas, you need a reason to get gas. no speed, any sort of pressure would have straight up killed you here, and this is bad macro.
11. supply blocked at 52 with 8 larva. dude. your macro. is not right at all. 300 minerals! you cannot get supply blocked like this, at diamond level supply blocks this hard are a straight up GG, nevermind low masters.
play in build order tester, and learn to make overlords better. Here's my recommendation for making them - make an overlord at 33/36, and then every overlord now, is made when you hit the cap, and at ~5 supply before. So like this:
33/36 ovie
36/36-44 ovie (which will only be 36/36 shortly, immediately it will be 36/44)
42/44 ovie (a bit later since you are either taking gas for 2 base lair or building like evo or whatever)
44/44-52 ovie
46/52 ovie
52/52-60 ovie
get it?
12. 1 evo chamber, not 2. You make the 2nd evo when lair is done when going roaches. you cant afford 1/1, and also, 2/0 roaches stomp 1/1 roaches (im sure you tested this?). You get +1 with evo, then lair like 20 supply later, so you can get +2 when lair is done, maybe even 2/1 at the same time. Doesnt matter when you get that second evo, but just understand +2 missile >>>>>>>> 1/1. you cant afford to get 1/1 while also taking a third, and lair and all of this so quickly...
13. 4th gas too quick.
14. you just made 6 overlords and are now at 60/102. whhhhhhhhhhhatt the fuciuuuuuck.
i cant look at this anymore. your macro is just not there. ill flash forward the rest, because your macro only gets worse.
you NEED an overseer when lair is done. always see what hes doing, check his army size to see how many roaches you need to make. if he hasnt taken a third yet and is clearly just bad, you need to not drone up you r third and be pumping roache sto hold his all-in (because not taking a third is somewhat all-in, even 2 base muta/infestor is semi-all-in as long as you hold the pressure)
need hydras, 1K+ bank...
you give away wayyyyy too many roaches for free. stop doing that. you constantly just lose units. you sniping his third was a gamble too. it only worked beacuse he was terrible and was caught out of position, but he's only losing 300 minerals and you are losing your entire army, worth about 1.5k. dont do that.
why would you make a spire? you are going roaches. mutas are a timing units, not a combat unit. if you go spire, you need to not go third base, you go 2 base lair and its a timing attack thats semi all-in and must do damage or else you end up behind. you see he clearly has hydras, you arent going to do anything with them and he'll just get infestors asap while defending with his hydras instead of making spore/queen, and be way ahead of you.
taking 5th and 6th gas should never be done like that either. you only make 5th gas when getting hydras, and only after having 60+ drones. you dont have nearly enough drones you are at only 57 drones. not enough
why are you getting mutas makes no sense. if you made roaches, you wont have enough gas to get enough mutas to do anything, not to mention its way too late. bad decision making there. you are now ahead of this zerg in econ, so now stop droning, and focus on tech, and army. mutas are tech, but not the right tech choice here, since he's stuck on 2 base, you already accomplished that, mutas wont chance that especially when he has hydras. you should have gotten hydras yourself.
78 drones on 4 bases with a spire, vs 48 drones on 2 base with roach/hydra. you should seroiusly look up a guide called "THE ETA CONCEPT". Basically, you are already ahead in E=Economy. You need to get ahead now with T=Tech and A=Army. No reason for you to lose here. Even if you massed roaches you could have won. You need to mass units now that your ahead in econ. You droned way too hard, bad decision making. You see he's on 2 base, you need to make army to hold his push first, as well as tech (hydras, or even infestors, fuck).
dont engage in a choke. flank him, dont let him run up to your third like that, use changelings. you should always know where his army is, and your army should have been by your most vulnerable spot, your third, as you can run back to your natural if he runs there since you have creep spread and all. dont engage ina choke like that.
that spine you made at the start, you should have uprooted that to the third too. dont make buildings useless, always re-root spines and spores as necessary.
you should make a macro hatch once on 3 base. you neer did that. your bad macro is why you bank 4k minerals, roaches are extremely mineral intensive. the only reason you bank so much minerals is because of bad macro. if you go mutas, which are very gas intensive, you need a macro hatch off 2 base (roaches mean macro hatch after third, lings like mutas or infestors means macro hatch on 2). you making mutas was just a terrible decision, probably what really cost you the game since your oppoennt macro'd really bad too
your mutas end up hurting you more than helping. you lose them all without doing enough damage to justify them, they were useless, if that was roaches you wouldve easily won the game. mutas are a timing unit, not a combat unit. if you make even a roach warren or roach speed or +1, you wont have enough gas to get mutas early enough, large enough, to do anything. and you cant get mutas if you go 3 base like that. just comes too late.
engaging his army was a terrible decisoin.
you are too all-in. This is how the game is played, especially as zerg:
take more bases, deny your opponent bases. You made enough roaches to secure your third again. Dont attack, just take your third, since your the one behind since you went mutas and lost your third earlier. attacking was just weird. thats like attacking against a 2 rax when going a normal hatch first in zvt. its not like that, you need to defend.
and he has more hydras than you have roaches. no way you are going to win that battle.
hydras are awesome unit. they are only bad in lower levels when people dont macro well, since hydras are only good as a timing unit, much like mutas. if you dont macro well, you can get away with things like not making hydras and only making roaches in zvz, or going straight to infestors instead of hydras in zvz (in zvp, hydras are bit different, they are more as a unit to defend 2 base all-ins with blink or stargate, or do pressure before colossi are out, which again, requires good macro and is timing based).
good luck, hope this helps.
btw, i love zvz. best match-up by far, it makes me sad when peopel say they dont like it or dont understand it ;/
map dependent, if you plan to go throu some kind of a choke or narrow ramp in the future, you shuld be makeing infestors.
Not really...
In ZvZ, assuming an even game where you both go roaches, you should go for hydras before infestors. In higher level play, if you go infestors before basically maxing out or having a huge lead, you will simply get owned by roach/hydra if you go infestors, as they kill you when you are at 150 supply, and the roach/hydra player is at 180-200 and attacking right when your infestors are popping out 1 by 1 and not enough FG and banked energy to stop the roach/hydra attack, and thats including someone who drones up. Maybe if you just not drone up your third at all can you get infestors, but then the roach/hhydra guy just takes a fourth and gets his own infestors and has a huge lead...
infestors are great defensively, yes, but they wont allow you to take additional bases against a roach/hydra player, and then you just lose as your 3rd or 4th is way too late.
of course, if the opponent does a 2base lair play like mutas or infestors, you are safe to skip hydras and go infestors first, thats a bit different.
roach/hydra/infestor > roach/infestor, there's a reason pro players always gets hydras in zvz, and nestea and drg always gets hydras, and idra gets hydras. they are damn good units if you macro well. its not like lower level players know better than these guys - for the longest time i thought roach/infestor was better than hydras too.
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I was wondering: are there clear signs that a terran is getting too greedy and that you should go punish him by making some kind of all in?
More precisely, I guess it would have to do with the timing of the third: is there any time it's too early, and then you are pretty sure you can go kill it?
Thanks!
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On June 28 2012 17:38 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +map dependent, if you plan to go throu some kind of a choke or narrow ramp in the future, you shuld be makeing infestors. Not really... In ZvZ, assuming an even game where you both go roaches, you should go for hydras before infestors. In higher level play, if you go infestors before basically maxing out or having a huge lead, you will simply get owned by roach/hydra if you go infestors, as they kill you when you are at 150 supply, and the roach/hydra player is at 180-200 and attacking right when your infestors are popping out 1 by 1 and not enough FG and banked energy to stop the roach/hydra attack, and thats including someone who drones up. Maybe if you just not drone up your third at all can you get infestors, but then the roach/hhydra guy just takes a fourth and gets his own infestors and has a huge lead... infestors are great defensively, yes, but they wont allow you to take additional bases against a roach/hydra player, and then you just lose as your 3rd or 4th is way too late. of course, if the opponent does a 2base lair play like mutas or infestors, you are safe to skip hydras and go infestors first, thats a bit different. roach/hydra/infestor > roach/infestor, there's a reason pro players always gets hydras in zvz, and nestea and drg always gets hydras, and idra gets hydras. they are damn good units if you macro well. its not like lower level players know better than these guys - for the longest time i thought roach/infestor was better than hydras too.
And this is exacly what I just said, only simpler... You act like everyone exept you were 12years old..
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I was wondering: are there clear signs that a terran is getting too greedy and that you should go punish him by making some kind of all in?
More precisely, I guess it would have to do with the timing of the third: is there any time it's too early, and then you are pretty sure you can go kill it?
Thanks!
In my ZvT Guide, I talk about this.
You can sac your overlord by his main at 30 instead of 40, to see if he took a fast third, at which you can go roach/baneling and nearly autowin as long as he doesn't find out in time (even then, it's pretty damn hard to hold, I dont think I've seen a pro terran hold it yet, ive only had one guy hold it against me on ladder and i screwed up the build really bad and he was way better than me).
The drawback is that if there is no fast third, or you dont see it (a huge possibility, although you can maybe deduct what's going on, ie no gas but no mass rax thrown down either), you won't know what T's follow-up to his expansion build, like if he's going to go banshees or marauder stim timing, both of which require different responses and can just win the game for terran if you are unprepared.
If Terran goes FE->4 rax, or does a 2 rax and you hold it off, you can baneling bust and do a lot of damage. I believe the FE into 4 rax was made unviable due to banelings busts a long time ago, but just in case you see a T do it. Also, a lot of T go double expand after a 2 rax, especially if they are behind, which just begs for you to roach/bane all-in. You can sac an overlord around 30 too, but you know since he made 2 rax, you can probably rule out banshees.
Other than a baneling bust or roach/bane all-in though, there isn't really anything you can do with standard play against a Terran. These are both all-ins, but they are strong all-ins that even a 2 base terran may struggle with, or a 3 base terran even if he scouts what you are up to.
And this is exacly what I just said, only simpler... You act like everyone exept you were 12years old..
I respond by the quality of the post I'm responding to.
And no, you didn't say that. You justified getting infestors before hydras, and unless the map is calm before the storm.... no.
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Agaisn't a bronze T whats a good timing to attack? should i scout his base with an overlord first to see what hes doing?
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On June 28 2012 20:05 yuseifan wrote:
Agaisn't a bronze T whats a good timing to attack? should i scout his base with an overlord first to see what hes doing?
You shouldn't play specific styles because it 'works at a certain level'. This type of mentality will keep you stagnant at that level because at higher levels people will most likely be able to deal with your strategy. The best thing for you to do is to focus on getting your macro down with just practicing your spending and keeping up with injections, creep and other tedious things.
To find a solid opener you should check out liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Zerg_Strategy
There is quite a list of information on how to get started with improving your macro, and there are a few good builds on there as well.
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On June 28 2012 16:09 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 16:01 Sapp wrote:
^I don't know how have you been testing that roach vs roach/hydra, but that is like totaly wrong. --..-- Um just to be clear roach/hydra is better then pure roach. Not sure if you are saying why he thought pure roach was better or if you are thinking pure roach is better, roach/hydra > pure roaches anyway. A composition you should be going for is roach/infestor and then adding hydras or roach/hydra then adding infestors. I personally prefer roach/hydra then adding infestors as it's a strong composition zvz. roach/hydra/infestor will crush a roach/infestor army (or at least I do unless I was super behind all game)
This is all entirely true! My reason for quoting is not to disagree, but to add onto this.
Pure roach is a lot faster to get and is a cheaper army. It does have a weaker potential strength and lacks the positional strength adding in hydras and infestors add. However, getting infestors and hydras requires additional tech and a lot more gas, so it requires for you to defend yourself until you get the units out and then for you to trade efficiently. Transitionally it is weaker than pure roach and you can find yourself subject to an all in, but once you get your army out and pumping you will generally win fights with fungal and the added dps + range of hydras. (Not that you should/will necessarily get both of them at once, but either is a huge buff to your army)
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On June 28 2012 17:05 Sapp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 16:09 blade55555 wrote:On June 28 2012 16:01 Sapp wrote:
^I don't know how have you been testing that roach vs roach/hydra, but that is like totaly wrong. --..-- [...]or if you are thinking pure roach is better, roach/hydra > pure roaches anyway. ... Show nested quote +
A composition you should be going for is roach/infestor and then adding hydras or roach/hydra then adding infestors. I personally prefer roach/hydra then adding infestors as it's a strong composition zvz.
map dependent, if you plan to go throu some kind of a choke or narrow ramp in the future, you shuld be makeing infestors.
You really shouldn't be forcing your way through a choke or ramp with roach inefestor either.
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Hi guys, I just want to ask do players like DRG, nestea release rep packs or where can I get other rep packs of good Z players to learn.
Also I hear ppl talking about the 6 queens build in ZvT. Can anyone give me a basic idea of it?
Thanks 
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If terran does a 1rax gasless expand, at what time can a banshee with cloack reach my 3rd?
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On June 28 2012 22:20 invisible.terran wrote:Hi guys, I just want to ask do players like DRG, nestea release rep packs or where can I get other rep packs of good Z players to learn. Also I hear ppl talking about the 6 queens build in ZvT. Can anyone give me a basic idea of it? Thanks
They generally don't, no.
You can find good replays of them in tournament packs like DH, IGN, Korea Weekly, GSL, MLG, etc etc.
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On June 28 2012 22:27 gronnelg wrote:
If terran does a 1rax gasless expand, at what time can a banshee with cloack reach my 3rd?
I would guess after 9:00~ if he really cut economy and units and 10:00~ as a standard.
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On June 28 2012 22:27 gronnelg wrote:
If terran does a 1rax gasless expand, at what time can a banshee with cloack reach my 3rd?
It's something like first banshee out at 7:30, cloak done by 8:30 ish, so I put up spores at main and 3rd at 8:00 normally.
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Can anyone tell me please how to handle mutas in zvz? My deflaut opening is 14p/15h/15g i then proceed to 2 queens drone up when safe drop bane nest around 30 supply poke a little with banes.
Start lair 2evo roach warren (im on 4gas at this point), now i try scout his mid game transition and if i see mutas i can just gg because its autoloss for me.
I tried either pressure with roach bane but that usually fails miserably, i tried third with hydras but that just fails aswell because u need ur whole army to deal with muta/ling and if u move it to third he just runs 20 lings to main etc. I tried fast infestor but oponent just split abit mutas and is fine making me waste imense amount of energy.
Im rly lost in this situation. 1100~ masters EU.
Thanks for help if reps are needed i think i can dig up at least one.
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On June 28 2012 23:38 Veriol wrote:
Can anyone tell me please how to handle mutas in zvz? My deflaut opening is 14p/15h/15g i then proceed to 2 queens drone up when safe drop bane nest around 30 supply poke a little with banes.
Start lair 2evo roach warren (im on 4gas at this point), now i try scout his mid game transition and if i see mutas i can just gg because its autoloss for me.
I tried either pressure with roach bane but that usually fails miserably, i tried third with hydras but that just fails aswell because u need ur whole army to deal with muta/ling and if u move it to third he just runs 20 lings to main etc. I tried fast infestor but oponent just split abit mutas and is fine making me waste imense amount of energy.
Im rly lost in this situation. 1100~ masters EU.
Thanks for help if reps are needed i think i can dig up at least one.
I would overproduce queens with a few spores and use infestors. Toss me a replay and I'll see if I have any insights.
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On June 28 2012 23:38 Veriol wrote:
Can anyone tell me please how to handle mutas in zvz? My deflaut opening is 14p/15h/15g i then proceed to 2 queens drone up when safe drop bane nest around 30 supply poke a little with banes.
Start lair 2evo roach warren (im on 4gas at this point), now i try scout his mid game transition and if i see mutas i can just gg because its autoloss for me.
I tried either pressure with roach bane but that usually fails miserably, i tried third with hydras but that just fails aswell because u need ur whole army to deal with muta/ling and if u move it to third he just runs 20 lings to main etc. I tried fast infestor but oponent just split abit mutas and is fine making me waste imense amount of energy.
Im rly lost in this situation. 1100~ masters EU.
Thanks for help if reps are needed i think i can dig up at least one.
Still struggle with mutas a lot myself; but from what I understand from several peoples post's; if your caught with your pants down when the mutas are out, attack with everything you've got to delay.
From that point, or assuming you saw/knew mutas were coming and have time to prepare 2 spores/base, 6 queens with your army, 3 for injects, and tech to infestors at the same time. Thats the general jist of what I've picked up on. I used to go hydras a lot aswell but against mutas their actually not very good, as unless you have a solid econ running you can't get enough out whilst maintaining other unit production.
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On June 28 2012 23:36 Host- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 22:27 gronnelg wrote:
If terran does a 1rax gasless expand, at what time can a banshee with cloack reach my 3rd? It's something like first banshee out at 7:30, cloak done by 8:30 ish, so I put up spores at main and 3rd at 8:00 normally.
This timing sounds ridiculously fast....on one base the banshee comes at around 6:30~ without cloak. There are 'faster' builds, but there's economic reasons people don't use them.
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On June 28 2012 23:38 Veriol wrote:
Can anyone tell me please how to handle mutas in zvz? My deflaut opening is 14p/15h/15g i then proceed to 2 queens drone up when safe drop bane nest around 30 supply poke a little with banes.
Start lair 2evo roach warren (im on 4gas at this point), now i try scout his mid game transition and if i see mutas i can just gg because its autoloss for me.
I tried either pressure with roach bane but that usually fails miserably, i tried third with hydras but that just fails aswell because u need ur whole army to deal with muta/ling and if u move it to third he just runs 20 lings to main etc. I tried fast infestor but oponent just split abit mutas and is fine making me waste imense amount of energy.
Im rly lost in this situation. 1100~ masters EU.
Thanks for help if reps are needed i think i can dig up at least one.
replay would be nice. You say you start lair and 2 evo's, then see his midgame transition. If you see muta's that early it would imply he won't have as much drones and units compared to you, so after some extra queens and spores in your base you should be safe. I would need to see a replay but it seems to me you are talking about extremely early mutas, so if you have a sizeable roach force you should be able to do some damage, since small clumps of mutas take forever to kill roaches.
For the ling runby problem: leave some banes strategically placed
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EPT
