EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 297
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
|
Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
| ||
|
Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 27 2012 02:45 Vandrad wrote: What to do vs mass voidray-carrier + mothership Harass him before he gets that composition if he has a lot of bases. If he is turtling you should mass expand and get hydra/infestor/corruptor and engage with spore crawlers nearby (root them into place), so you will need a lot of creep spread. You should also try and do runbys and nydus lings into his bases as his army is horribly gas requiring so if you can tradr somewhat efficiently and cut off his gas mining you'll be golden. | ||
|
err
54 Posts
| ||
|
Farkinator
United States283 Posts
| ||
|
KhAmun
United States1005 Posts
On June 27 2012 03:50 Anacletus wrote: Harass him before he gets that composition if he has a lot of bases. If he is turtling you should mass expand and get hydra/infestor/corruptor and engage with spore crawlers nearby (root them into place), so you will need a lot of creep spread. You should also try and do runbys and nydus lings into his bases as his army is horribly gas requiring so if you can tradr somewhat efficiently and cut off his gas mining you'll be golden. I disagree, cut out the hydras and go double upgraded spire. 2-2 and 3-3 corruptors with some infestors mixed in can beat any air army in the game. | ||
|
Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 27 2012 04:09 Farkinator wrote: I've been having trouble on Shakuras Plateau. Like 30% winrate (Almost every game is versus Protoss on that map). Should I undo one of my vetoes to get rid of the map or should I be playing it differently? I think that you should just veto the map. Without replays to help consult you on what you can do differently and with that low of a win rate it seems to be your best option. | ||
|
Mvrio
689 Posts
On June 27 2012 04:30 KhAmun wrote: I disagree, cut out the hydras and go double upgraded spire. 2-2 and 3-3 corruptors with some infestors mixed in can beat any air army in the game. I came in this thread literally to ask this question. I lost to this build, held him to 3 base the entire time. I didn't go hydra and went corrupter, no double spire, few infestors, high on bases, (once I scouted him with fleet of knew exatcly what his comp would be) I took gold (antiga) but to no avail. | ||
|
TG Manny
United States325 Posts
Thanks! | ||
|
Anacletus
United States733 Posts
On June 27 2012 06:06 TG Manny wrote: I know this seems silly but I'd like to ask a favor if there is a "Big book to zerg" to read. I'm race switching from Terran and I feel...well....lost as far as builds. I've been doing a 2 base roach 'allin' just to practice mechanics but I'd like to get some pointers on how to hold hatch first, when to lair, gas, etc. Thanks! Actually, yes. This is pretty awesome - some of the information may be outdated, and it may not include some of the present metagame, but it is extremely descriptive and helpful nonetheless. http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/topic/56332-zerg-for-noobies-ebook-v12/ I hope this helps - and if you like it make sure to send thanks to vVvShaft for making it  | ||
|
SamuraiSEA
Japan89 Posts
I've recently encountered a few Protoss who FFE into a high immortal composition with lots of sentries and zealots.. This completely shut-down my normal 11:50 or so max roach army... As even in some what good engagement positions forcefields render that useless... So If any of you know what to do, or perhaps give me some tips on this composition following a FFE, it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks | ||
|
Bearwidme
Australia57 Posts
On June 27 2012 13:08 SamuraiSEA wrote: Hey guys, I've recently encountered a few Protoss who FFE into a high immortal composition with lots of sentries and zealots.. This completely shut-down my normal 11:50 or so max roach army... As even in some what good engagement positions forcefields render that useless... So If any of you know what to do, or perhaps give me some tips on this composition following a FFE, it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks I know this sounds obnoxious but scouting that this kind of composition is coming is the way to beat it. A lot of protoss are blind countering the stephano style roach max because they can't deal with it doing regular gateway pushes/defense. Once you establish that he's going for a lot of sentries/immortals (has to have double gas at natural for this to be effective) you need to do SOMETHING other than roaches. You need hydras or burrow movement or infestors - Mutas are perfect however i think you will struggle to transition out of a roach max into mutas if you don't scout it in time. Having said all this, if you have really good macro (perfect overlord timings) i think you can still overwhelm this style with roach/speedling. You just have to wear down that sentry energy in ways that don't lose you 20+lings/4+ roaches. | ||
|
ChimeraGaming
United States5 Posts
In ZvZ If I open a safe 14/14 what should I be doing against a hatch first opponent? I feel like going 14/14 although safer it just puts me behind a lot in drone count. Should I be trying a timing attack when I have speed and he doesn't? Is there no real way to catch up against good players? I've searched for threads on this issue, but they only give the perspective of the hatch first player. Thanks for any answers! | ||
|
vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On June 27 2012 13:36 ChimeraGaming wrote: Probably a simple question, but I'm relatively new to SC2. In ZvZ If I open a safe 14/14 what should I be doing against a hatch first opponent? I feel like going 14/14 although safer it just puts me behind a lot in drone count. Should I be trying a timing attack when I have speed and he doesn't? Is there no real way to catch up against good players? I've searched for threads on this issue, but they only give the perspective of the hatch first player. Thanks for any answers! I now go hatch first with a 9 drone scout (allows me to 14 pool if they early pool) but I used to 14/14 and this is how I did it vs hatch first. This is also how stephano plays 14/14 vs hatch first. Once you scout hatch first with your ovie, take your drones off gas once you have 100 and drone to 19 supply (16 drones on minerals, 1 queen, 1 drone for hatch). Take your expansion at 19 supply and then make 6-10 lings. After you make the lings, get a 2nd queen and resume droning. Rally your next 3 drones onto gas so that you can get your baneling nest (A MUST vs hatch first or he can outproduce you with speedlings; many people will try to). All the remaining drones should go to your natural. Your lings should arrive at his base right when your speed is finishing up and you'll have about 50 seconds where you'll have speed and he wont. Use this time to pick off drones/harass. Don't fight his lings. This way is the most optimal way I've found, it gives you the maximum economy possible on 1 base and resumes droning right when your expansion finishes. It gives you chance to make up the difference if you pick off a drone or two. There is an EXCELLENT replay of this between stephano and violet at redbull lan. http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/001243035003218 Go to that page and download the game between stephano and violet on gsl daybreak. It's under match history at the bottom of the page. | ||
|
SamuraiSEA
Japan89 Posts
On June 27 2012 13:27 Bearwidme wrote: I know this sounds obnoxious but scouting that this kind of composition is coming is the way to beat it. A lot of protoss are blind countering the stephano style roach max because they can't deal with it doing regular gateway pushes/defense. Once you establish that he's going for a lot of sentries/immortals (has to have double gas at natural for this to be effective) you need to do SOMETHING other than roaches. You need hydras or burrow movement or infestors - Mutas are perfect however i think you will struggle to transition out of a roach max into mutas if you don't scout it in time. Having said all this, if you have really good macro (perfect overlord timings) i think you can still overwhelm this style with roach/speedling. You just have to wear down that sentry energy in ways that don't lose you 20+lings/4+ roaches. That sounds like a good solution ^^ thanks for the reply man, I'll try this next time. Definitely a problem of scouting for me. | ||
|
Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you are losing to immortal/sentry all-ins, then quite simply you are either being too greedy or you are teching too hard. Immortal/sentry pushes will squash you if you go for a 5th and 6th gas, or if you go hydras/infestors/mutas. You cannot tech up against it. Just like a 1 base 4 gate robo immortal all-in, you just need to churn out a ton of roach/ling for a very long time. Submit a replay - as naniwa said, it's much easier to execute an immortal/sentry all-in than to defend it, and there has still yet to be a single game in the GSL where someone defended an immortal/sentry all-in. Regardless, you need to be churning out roach/ling from 8:30+, and you should be at least at 65 supply at the 8:00 mark. It's definitely hard to hold, but you need to engage out in the open, you can't let the engagement happen at your base, and you need to force lots of forcefields. My ZvP guide talks about it in-depth: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 Bearwidme's advice is completely wrong, and if you try to go hydras or burrow move or infestors or mutas, you will straight up lose to a strong immortal/sentry all-in.You can check out "Nestea's anti-immortal sentry build" thread for some discussion on the subject, but believe me when I say, bearwidme is giving completely incorrect advice. You just need better macro, and more roach/ling. As for scouting, seeing 4 gas total (2 at his nat), especially 2 that are taken 'late' (6:00+), that is usually indicative of an immortal opening, and you should be able to get an overlord in and see since he is just making sentries. Then, when your lair completes, you need to send an overseer in to see if he's either expanding behind it (1-5 gates, in which case you should get mutas or infestors or go attack with roach aggression) or all-inning (6+ gates), in which case you desperately need to mass as much roach/ling as you can. Probably a simple question, but I'm relatively new to SC2. In ZvZ If I open a safe 14/14 what should I be doing against a hatch first opponent? I feel like going 14/14 although safer it just puts me behind a lot in drone count. Should I be trying a timing attack when I have speed and he doesn't? Is there no real way to catch up against good players? I've searched for threads on this issue, but they only give the perspective of the hatch first player. Thanks for any answers! You are only ~5 drones behind with 14/14, it isn't that far behind. just take your expo at 21, remove drones off gas as soon as you get 100 for speed. You can make an initial 2-6 lings (the hatch first player will be forced to make just as many, so it wont put you behind at all) if you want, but just drone up and play normal. You aren't far behind, and you'll hit high masters before you hit anyone who can really exploit that 5 drone lead they have over you, and by that point, you'll know all the nuances of 14/14 and hatch first. But 14/14 is considered behind in terms of build orders against hatch first. Although you can probably build order win up to low masters if you just reactively stay on gas and do a 1 base ling/bane all-in. Bad advice, I know, but just saying. But on TDA, 14/14 is better than hatch first (no ramp to block with 2 queens, therefore cant drone up, and you end up behind in drones against 14/14). And probably everyone who does hatch first in lower levels doesnt drone properly or know how to hold aggression with it, or how to scout, so just 14/14 and watch your reps and see how your drone count fared. Really, don't worry about it, the poor macro of people in diamond and below is a MUCH bigger problem than the lead or gains by hatch first vs 14/14. Or, rather, the very minor macro mistakes even low masters make, like being 5 seconds late on the 36 overlord, is a bigger deal than the lead hatch first has. | ||
|
Macpo
453 Posts
On June 27 2012 14:28 SamuraiSEA wrote: That sounds like a good solution ^^ thanks for the reply man, I'll try this next time. Definitely a problem of scouting for me. Scouting is quite important, but I would also insist on two other things: - I find quite useful to have some lings before he is actually pushing (like make lings with your first round of units), instead of going only pure roaches. This serves 2 purposes. one is to delay is push, by threatening pylons, maybe forcing some forcefields. the other purpose is that lings are quite good against sentry immortals imo, as they tank quite a lot of damage. Finally, as they are more mobile, they help to get a good engagement - this is my second point: you need to have a good engagement, i.e. an engagement from multiple angles, that will make forcefields much more inefficient. (- a third thing, potentially, would be adding spines where you feel he is going to push, as these are good against sentries.) So basically, when i am doing the stephano build, if I see a robo, i make an extra round of drones, beyond 60 drones; then make around 30 lings; then spam roaches, and put a few spines at 3rd (like 2 or 3). When i see him going out, I make zerglings dance around his army, threaten his probe, units at the back, etc. At the same time, I try to position correctly my roach army for an attack from 2 angles. when he engages, I send everything | ||
|
6xFPCs
United States412 Posts
On June 27 2012 14:18 vsportsguy wrote: I now go hatch first with a 9 drone scout (allows me to 14 pool if they early pool) but I used to 14/14 and this is how I did it vs hatch first. This is also how stephano plays 14/14 vs hatch first. Once you scout hatch first with your ovie, take your drones off gas once you have 100 and drone to 19 supply (16 drones on minerals, 1 queen, 1 drone for hatch). Take your expansion at 19 supply and then make 6-10 lings. After you make the lings, get a 2nd queen and resume droning. Rally your next 3 drones onto gas so that you can get your baneling nest (A MUST vs hatch first or he can outproduce you with speedlings; many people will try to). All the remaining drones should go to your natural. Your lings should arrive at his base right when your speed is finishing up and you'll have about 50 seconds where you'll have speed and he wont. Use this time to pick off drones/harass. Don't fight his lings. This way is the most optimal way I've found, it gives you the maximum economy possible on 1 base and resumes droning right when your expansion finishes. It gives you chance to make up the difference if you pick off a drone or two. There is an EXCELLENT replay of this between stephano and violet at redbull lan. http://www.redbullusa.com/cs/Satellite/en_US/001243035003218 Go to that page and download the game between stephano and violet on gsl daybreak. It's under match history at the bottom of the page. I think I mostly agree with this guy, but let me write it my own way. My impression from the hatch first side of things is that the window of time where you have speed and I don't is critical. You want to pressure me, try to get me to make lings, deny mining at the natural, and delay larvae injects by threatening a runby. Best case for you, I panic and overbuild lings, then you already have banes defending at home when my speed finishes, while having gotten out a round or two of drones and started mining at your now-finished natural. I can't really say with any expertise whether you'd then be even, ahead, or still behind, but a properly played hatch first will not let you get anything done other than the above. So I don't recommend any all-in or large speedling deal. Remember, hatch first has the larvae advantage until your natural hatch finishes. And all that being said, I'd still like to suggest that you try hatch first. Once you put in a few practice runs with it, you'll realize how powerful it is. | ||
|
vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
On June 27 2012 15:02 Belial88 wrote: ^ I don't agree with his advice... If you are losing to immortal/sentry all-ins, then quite simply you are either being too greedy or you are teching too hard. Immortal/sentry pushes will squash you if you go for a 5th and 6th gas, or if you go hydras/infestors/mutas. You cannot tech up against it. Just like a 1 base 4 gate robo immortal all-in, you just need to churn out a ton of roach/ling for a very long time. Submit a replay - as naniwa said, it's much easier to execute an immortal/sentry all-in than to defend it, and there has still yet to be a single game in the GSL where someone defended an immortal/sentry all-in. Regardless, you need to be churning out roach/ling from 8:30+, and you should be at least at 65 supply at the 8:00 mark. It's definitely hard to hold, but you need to engage out in the open, you can't let the engagement happen at your base, and you need to force lots of forcefields. My ZvP guide talks about it in-depth: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320038 Bearwidme's advice is completely wrong, and if you try to go hydras or burrow move or infestors or mutas, you will straight up lose to a strong immortal/sentry all-in.You can check out "Nestea's anti-immortal sentry build" thread for some discussion on the subject, but believe me when I say, bearwidme is giving completely incorrect advice. You just need better macro, and more roach/ling. As for scouting, seeing 4 gas total (2 at his nat), especially 2 that are taken 'late' (6:00+), that is usually indicative of an immortal opening, and you should be able to get an overlord in and see since he is just making sentries. Then, when your lair completes, you need to send an overseer in to see if he's either expanding behind it (1-5 gates, in which case you should get mutas or infestors or go attack with roach aggression) or all-inning (6+ gates), in which case you desperately need to mass as much roach/ling as you can. I'll second this for how to defend sentry immortal. I almost never lose to it. I start each ZvP with the intention of doing stephano's roach ling max which is drone to about 70 supply on 4 gas, 1 evo, and a macro hatch. There is no reason you can't be around 72-75 supply by 8 minutes with some practice (provided you don't need to make more than 2 lings early on). I remember practicing maxing as fast as I could again and again in yabot. The only answer on how to defeat this immortal push is simply HAVE MORE STUFF. That's it. You can't beat it with any sort of tech. If you're caught teching to mutas/infestors/hydras with 5 or 6 gas you will get absolutely demolished. Make sure to constantly engage him while he's making his way from his base to yours. Make him use forcefields then you run away. Then you reingage and make him use more forcefields. He should never actually make it to your 3rd, he should run out of forcfields and you can overrun him once he does. Also stay AWAY from chokes, he will crush you if you fight near one. I know of one other way to beat the push and that is to never actually engage it: send all of your units to base trade while you mass spines at your main ramp. However this is gimmicky and I think far more unpredictable than beating it with roach/ling. If he ends up taking a 3rd instead of doing the push (they often look identical as far as scouting), THEN you can get your 4th base, 5th and 6th gas, and tech for the lategame, but you need to play each ZvP with the precaution that he is going to do the immortal push and pump roach/ling off of 4 gas until you confirm he's expanded. | ||
|
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Do NOT let him move out with 4/5 sentries and an immortal to place a pylon. If he tries you can kill the sentries and the push is shut down. You want to engage as far from your base as possible. Baiting forcefields helps, but don't expect them to run out. Whenever you engage, focus immortals if you have enough to GUARANTEE a kill on it, otherwise focus sentries. | ||
|
xBAMx
Germany3 Posts
What's a good way to keep track of your injects? At the moment I hotkey every hatch and tap from time to time my main hatch to see, if the current larva cycle is over. PROBLEM => Looking at the status bar for the inject doesn't work while you produce anything in the hatch. At first I started out with hotkeying my ueens, but switched over to hotkeying my hatches and select the corresponding queen for the inject manually (works pretty well). So looking at the queens energy isn't sufficient for me (moreover, once I start to mess up, the queens energy gets higher and the "over 25 energy"-thing won't work anymore). Furthermore, I think about incorporating screen locations in my play, saving all my hatches and forget about the individual hotkeys for every hatch all together (only one hotkey for all hatches => production). I'm thinking about switching through my different hatches via screen hotkeys to see, if it's time to inject. But I'm not so sure if that's a good way to do this? Any thoughts would be appreciated! | ||
| ||
