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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On June 25 2012 05:08 oZii wrote:
Toss goes FFE whats best time to Sac a Ovie? Was playing earlier going max roach style and would have won but he had DTS for defense. Part of me thinks I should have pushed in anyway but the dts and cannons (he also had some zealots to tank for cannons and a few stalkers) they where just killing my force.
6.30-7.00 is the standard time to sac an OVIE. Personally ,i usually do a scout at 6.45-7.00 to scout tech.
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I asked this in the Terran Help Me Thread, but I figure it might be smarter to ask here:
What one or two base all-ins do you have a difficult time againsts in ZvT? To my understanding there are no viable all-ins (except maybe proxy rax all-ins), but maybe you Zergs can enlighten me.
Thanks!
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On June 25 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I asked this in the Terran Help Me Thread, but I figure it might be smarter to ask here:
What one or two base all-ins do you have a difficult time againsts in ZvT? To my understanding there are no viable all-ins (except maybe proxy rax all-ins), but maybe you Zergs can enlighten me.
Thanks!
You could go for a 2 base mass Thor / banshee /hellion all in which can mass repair to deliver a powerful punch.
You could go for a mass hellion marauder all in.
Those are the ones that I personally find difficult to deal with.
The liquipedia page has a few specific builds linked that you could try out.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
Several allins I lost to are:
- 1base Hellion/Marauder
- 1base mass Banshee
- 2base mass Thor
- 1base Thor proxy Factory with SCVs repairing
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On June 25 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I asked this in the Terran Help Me Thread, but I figure it might be smarter to ask here:
What one or two base all-ins do you have a difficult time againsts in ZvT? To my understanding there are no viable all-ins (except maybe proxy rax all-ins), but maybe you Zergs can enlighten me.
Thanks!
What league are you in? I'm Silver, and I get messed up by big Blue Flame Hellion rushes. Probably won't work in later leagues though.
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I know the current metagame in ZvP is passive roach infestor spine into infestor brood/corruptor but in what situations does Roach/hydra/corruptor still work?
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On June 25 2012 07:30 Guamshin wrote:
I know the current metagame in ZvP is passive roach infestor spine into infestor brood/corruptor but in what situations does Roach/hydra/corruptor still work?
When you want to lose.
Seriously, there is no point going roach/hydra/corruptor on even bases, or even if you're up a base. The only time it would work is if you are already ahead by a lot, and want to go for the killing blow against a turtling opponent. In which case, it doesn't really matter what comp you have.
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Thanks for the tips so far =)
On June 25 2012 07:25 PandaGuns wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I asked this in the Terran Help Me Thread, but I figure it might be smarter to ask here:
What one or two base all-ins do you have a difficult time againsts in ZvT? To my understanding there are no viable all-ins (except maybe proxy rax all-ins), but maybe you Zergs can enlighten me.
Thanks! What league are you in? I'm Silver, and I get messed up by big Blue Flame Hellion rushes. Probably won't work in later leagues though.
I'm high master. Probably should have mentioned that.
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On June 25 2012 07:30 Guamshin wrote:
I know the current metagame in ZvP is passive roach infestor spine into infestor brood/corruptor but in what situations does Roach/hydra/corruptor still work?
Generally speaking, roach/hydra/corruptor just isn't as strong as infestor broodlord, however it can be obtained a lot sooner, is cheaper, and a bit more mobile. This means you can be aggressive up until the protoss hits a critical mass or a deathball. This style was generally dropped because of the small windows of timing you have to hit to be effective before the protoss create a stronger army and defeat you. In general I would suggest not making hydras altogether, however roach/corruptor can be great to hold the pushes protoss use with small amounts of colossi and let's you transition into broodlords later.
Here's a stub on Zerg unit usage to let you make some comparisons.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_ZvP_Strategy
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On June 25 2012 07:38 Starshaped wrote:Thanks for the tips so far =) Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 07:25 PandaGuns wrote:On June 25 2012 06:45 Starshaped wrote:
I asked this in the Terran Help Me Thread, but I figure it might be smarter to ask here:
What one or two base all-ins do you have a difficult time againsts in ZvT? To my understanding there are no viable all-ins (except maybe proxy rax all-ins), but maybe you Zergs can enlighten me.
Thanks! What league are you in? I'm Silver, and I get messed up by big Blue Flame Hellion rushes. Probably won't work in later leagues though. I'm high master. Probably should have mentioned that.
Hate to help a terran with something like all-ins, but, and this is at low masters...
- hellion-marauder is tough to hold but doable; biggest issue for terran is that it is relatively easily scouted by poking the front.
- the 8 marine, 4 hellion, 1 medivac thing still gives me random losses if I rely on too few queens for defense (having assumed reactor hellion FE); don't know how viable this is at a higher level though.
- heavier hellion pressure (6+) into banshee just generally disrupts everything, it's tough to be aware enough to remember to scout for the banshee switch. often i've kept preparing for more hellions just long enough to ensure I take a lot of damage from the banshees.
For the zergs reading this... don't get lazy on the overlord sac. It's easy to counter something when you know it's coming.
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http://drop.sc/204781
So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games...
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On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games...
Okay, so here are some thing that I noticed:- Your opening looks pretty solid, I feel like you did a great job scouting and assessing his play.
- At 10 minutes you are floating just about 1k minerals, you should work on keeping your money lower
- Another thing I noticed at 10 minutes is that you just finished your fourth hatchery and still have barely any larvae, I think that you should create additional hatcheries for larvae - this will help with your money spending problem.
- Early game your creep spread is lacking although you have a few extra queens - this is something you could work on micro-managing.
- At 11 minutes you chose to take your fourth base at the top middle expansion. I feel like this was a poor choice and you should have chosen the base on the middle left hand side below your third. That base only has one entrance and exit so if the Protoss goes to destroy it with his full army (as you should be defending slight harasses with spines / lings) you can contain him in there and force him to engage into you, whereas at the top right base he can force field you out and exit through the other entrance. + Show Spoiler +
As a side note, I saw just about every Zerg take the same base as their fourth in the GSL when against Protoss
- At 14 minutes the rocks to his third are still untouched, you should try and at get those down to force him to make some defense, it may not be huge but it will make a difference.
- At 15 minutes you let him take your fourth base for free while you sit at 90 drones. I feel like you overdroned a bit and should have had an army out in time to try and trade armies with him.
- You spent a lot of gas on overseers but really didn't do anything with them. You should put all of your overseers on a hotkey and constantly send in changelings with them to either get a free scout or force his attention somewhere else. (Assuming you leave your overseers are your expansions for DT detection).
- At around 16 minutes he is vastly ahead of you on upgrades, he is at 2-1 while you are at 0-1. You should be starting and making use of two evolution chambers to stay head of him. This is very important.
- At 16 minutes he does an incredibly offensive blink into you and you backed off. You should have fungaled him and caught him out of position, your spines were right there for your infestors to hide behind after all. I feel like if you had forced an engagement there you might have been able to win the game pushing after that.
- Your overlord spread is slightly lacking, if he were to do void prism drops you could end up in trouble, you should work on spreading your overlords across the outer parts of the map for the late game. Zealot drops can be extremely devastating.
- Your creep spread is still lack luster, just a friendly reminder to work on that!
- At 17:30 you lost an infestor and took a considerable amount of damage on your broodlords for free, why not fungal him when he offensively blinked and then back up?
- The engagement at 17:45 was so painful, you lost 2 broodlords before you threw a single fungal, and you didn't run in your forces until after you took a lot of damage. You also let him engage with his forces being on a ramp, so he could use a minimal amount of force fields to keep your lings from engaging.
- That engagement was EXTREMELY bad, you really should re-watch that and consider how to engage better against a Protoss, your army is a good bit stronger than his, but you aren't very aggressive in forcing good engagements and you fight very poorly and you didn't position very well.
- At 19 minutes I like your attempt at picking off a lot of his units with lings, this was definitely worth it and you also attempted to hurt his economy. Although it didn't pan out it was still a good decision to make.
- Awesome runby at 23 minutes, this was definitely a great decision and did a great deal of damage.
- Your composition after seeing his mothership wasn't too great, you overmade broodlords and lings and didn't have any infestors or corruptors to deal with it. You should try and get a better feel of how much is overcomitting to killing a mothership and how much is undercomitting, I feel like you definitely undercommitted in this game.
- At 24 minutes you have NO upgrades on broodlords, this is extremely not good. You should always get armor upgrades on them or else they will be super squishy to stalker damage. If you watch Stephano or other notable Zerg pros play they almost always drop an extra spire to get double upgrades going on their broodlords. You should consider adapting some in this way since it seems you favor your broodies a good bit.
- At 24:30 you should have split your units better so he couldn't cast two vortexes and caught your entire army. You should also keep a few infestors off to the side to fungal archons so that they can't get into the vortex, this will help mitigate damage it can do.
Overall you're a great player, and I hope you don't take my negative tone words like 'bad' and such as being mean, I am just trying to use negative words to point out that what you did was....well...bad! So yeah, I hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck in your future matches! GG WP!
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On June 25 2012 12:15 Anacletus wrote:
[*]At 15 minutes you let him take your fourth base for free
If I had to pin down the biggest reason why the game ended in a loss it was this. The toss army just APPEARED at the fourth and destroyed it. There were no scouts on the attack path and the gas losses delayed the infestor/BL army.
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On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games...
+ Show Spoiler +Okay, so here are some thing that I noticed: - Your opening looks pretty solid, I feel like you did a great job scouting and assessing his play.
- At 10 minutes you are floating just about 1k minerals, you should work on keeping your money lower
- Another thing I noticed at 10 minutes is that you just finished your fourth hatchery and still have barely any larvae, I think that you should create additional hatcheries for larvae - this will help with your money spending problem.
- Early game your creep spread is lacking although you have a few extra queens - this is something you could work on micro-managing.
- At 11 minutes you chose to take your fourth base at the top middle expansion. I feel like this was a poor choice and you should have chosen the base on the middle left hand side below your third. That base only has one entrance and exit so if the Protoss goes to destroy it with his full army (as you should be defending slight harasses with spines / lings) you can contain him in there and force him to engage into you, whereas at the top right base he can force field you out and exit through the other entrance. + Show Spoiler +
As a side note, I saw just about every Zerg take the same base as their fourth in the GSL when against Protoss
- At 14 minutes the rocks to his third are still untouched, you should try and at get those down to force him to make some defense, it may not be huge but it will make a difference.
- At 15 minutes you let him take your fourth base for free while you sit at 90 drones. I feel like you overdroned a bit and should have had an army out in time to try and trade armies with him.
- You spent a lot of gas on overseers but really didn't do anything with them. You should put all of your overseers on a hotkey and constantly send in changelings with them to either get a free scout or force his attention somewhere else. (Assuming you leave your overseers are your expansions for DT detection).
- At around 16 minutes he is vastly ahead of you on upgrades, he is at 2-1 while you are at 0-1. You should be starting and making use of two evolution chambers to stay head of him. This is very important.
- At 16 minutes he does an incredibly offensive blink into you and you backed off. You should have fungaled him and caught him out of position, your spines were right there for your infestors to hide behind after all. I feel like if you had forced an engagement there you might have been able to win the game pushing after that.
- Your overlord spread is slightly lacking, if he were to do void prism drops you could end up in trouble, you should work on spreading your overlords across the outer parts of the map for the late game. Zealot drops can be extremely devastating.
- Your creep spread is still lack luster, just a friendly reminder to work on that!
- At 17:30 you lost an infestor and took a considerable amount of damage on your broodlords for free, why not fungal him when he offensively blinked and then back up?
- The engagement at 17:45 was so painful, you lost 2 broodlords before you threw a single fungal, and you didn't run in your forces until after you took a lot of damage. You also let him engage with his forces being on a ramp, so he could use a minimal amount of force fields to keep your lings from engaging.
- That engagement was EXTREMELY bad, you really should re-watch that and consider how to engage better against a Protoss, your army is a good bit stronger than his, but you aren't very aggressive in forcing good engagements and you fight very poorly and you didn't position very well.
- At 19 minutes I like your attempt at picking off a lot of his units with lings, this was definitely worth it and you also attempted to hurt his economy. Although it didn't pan out it was still a good decision to make.
- Awesome runby at 23 minutes, this was definitely a great decision and did a great deal of damage.
- Your composition after seeing his mothership wasn't too great, you overmade broodlords and lings and didn't have any infestors or corruptors to deal with it. You should try and get a better feel of how much is overcomitting to killing a mothership and how much is undercomitting, I feel like you definitely undercommitted in this game.
- At 24 minutes you have NO upgrades on broodlords, this is extremely not good. You should always get armor upgrades on them or else they will be super squishy to stalker damage. If you watch Stephano or other notable Zerg pros play they almost always drop an extra spire to get double upgrades going on their broodlords. You should consider adapting some in this way since it seems you favor your broodies a good bit.
- At 24:30 you should have split your units better so he couldn't cast two vortexes and caught your entire army. You should also keep a few infestors off to the side to fungal archons so that they can't get into the vortex, this will help mitigate damage it can do.
Overall you're a great player, and I hope you don't take my negative tone words like 'bad' and such as being mean, I am just trying to use negative words to point out that what you did was....well...bad! So yeah, I hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck in your future matches! GG WP!
[/QUOTE]
OMG, I LOVE YOU! Thank you so much! I definitely have a better idea of how to go about mid-late game zvp now...though, engaging is most definitely the hardest part of it all. I have a knack of engaging horribly versus toss :/
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On June 25 2012 13:19 Amaterasu1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games... + Show Spoiler +Okay, so here are some thing that I noticed: - Your opening looks pretty solid, I feel like you did a great job scouting and assessing his play.
- At 10 minutes you are floating just about 1k minerals, you should work on keeping your money lower
- Another thing I noticed at 10 minutes is that you just finished your fourth hatchery and still have barely any larvae, I think that you should create additional hatcheries for larvae - this will help with your money spending problem.
- Early game your creep spread is lacking although you have a few extra queens - this is something you could work on micro-managing.
- At 11 minutes you chose to take your fourth base at the top middle expansion. I feel like this was a poor choice and you should have chosen the base on the middle left hand side below your third. That base only has one entrance and exit so if the Protoss goes to destroy it with his full army (as you should be defending slight harasses with spines / lings) you can contain him in there and force him to engage into you, whereas at the top right base he can force field you out and exit through the other entrance. + Show Spoiler +
As a side note, I saw just about every Zerg take the same base as their fourth in the GSL when against Protoss
- At 14 minutes the rocks to his third are still untouched, you should try and at get those down to force him to make some defense, it may not be huge but it will make a difference.
- At 15 minutes you let him take your fourth base for free while you sit at 90 drones. I feel like you overdroned a bit and should have had an army out in time to try and trade armies with him.
- You spent a lot of gas on overseers but really didn't do anything with them. You should put all of your overseers on a hotkey and constantly send in changelings with them to either get a free scout or force his attention somewhere else. (Assuming you leave your overseers are your expansions for DT detection).
- At around 16 minutes he is vastly ahead of you on upgrades, he is at 2-1 while you are at 0-1. You should be starting and making use of two evolution chambers to stay head of him. This is very important.
- At 16 minutes he does an incredibly offensive blink into you and you backed off. You should have fungaled him and caught him out of position, your spines were right there for your infestors to hide behind after all. I feel like if you had forced an engagement there you might have been able to win the game pushing after that.
- Your overlord spread is slightly lacking, if he were to do void prism drops you could end up in trouble, you should work on spreading your overlords across the outer parts of the map for the late game. Zealot drops can be extremely devastating.
- Your creep spread is still lack luster, just a friendly reminder to work on that!
- At 17:30 you lost an infestor and took a considerable amount of damage on your broodlords for free, why not fungal him when he offensively blinked and then back up?
- The engagement at 17:45 was so painful, you lost 2 broodlords before you threw a single fungal, and you didn't run in your forces until after you took a lot of damage. You also let him engage with his forces being on a ramp, so he could use a minimal amount of force fields to keep your lings from engaging.
- That engagement was EXTREMELY bad, you really should re-watch that and consider how to engage better against a Protoss, your army is a good bit stronger than his, but you aren't very aggressive in forcing good engagements and you fight very poorly and you didn't position very well.
- At 19 minutes I like your attempt at picking off a lot of his units with lings, this was definitely worth it and you also attempted to hurt his economy. Although it didn't pan out it was still a good decision to make.
- Awesome runby at 23 minutes, this was definitely a great decision and did a great deal of damage.
- Your composition after seeing his mothership wasn't too great, you overmade broodlords and lings and didn't have any infestors or corruptors to deal with it. You should try and get a better feel of how much is overcomitting to killing a mothership and how much is undercomitting, I feel like you definitely undercommitted in this game.
- At 24 minutes you have NO upgrades on broodlords, this is extremely not good. You should always get armor upgrades on them or else they will be super squishy to stalker damage. If you watch Stephano or other notable Zerg pros play they almost always drop an extra spire to get double upgrades going on their broodlords. You should consider adapting some in this way since it seems you favor your broodies a good bit.
- At 24:30 you should have split your units better so he couldn't cast two vortexes and caught your entire army. You should also keep a few infestors off to the side to fungal archons so that they can't get into the vortex, this will help mitigate damage it can do.
Overall you're a great player, and I hope you don't take my negative tone words like 'bad' and such as being mean, I am just trying to use negative words to point out that what you did was....well...bad! So yeah, I hope this helps and I wish you the best of luck in your future matches! GG WP!
OMG, I LOVE YOU! Thank you so much! I definitely have a better idea of how to go about mid-late game zvp now...though, engaging is most definitely the hardest part of it all. I have a knack of engaging horribly versus toss :/[/QUOTE]
Awesome - glad I could be of assistance! Feel free to shoot me a PM anytime!
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On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games...
A general observation: hasn't Zerg become to focused on 3base "gogo Hive" giving Protoss all incentive to cut crazy corners to get a counter army? I've been losing at lot in ZvP with the 3base tactic and when I look at the replays Protoss pretty much always assumes I'm going 3base defensive he doesn't make any units and starts teching up crazy.
Since a few days I've changed my ZvP to the old "Losira timing" (36 Roach/Sling allin) and from the last 20 or so ZvP's I've only lost one due to a retardedly long supply block.
Now i'm only high diamond EU, but in the replay Amaterasu posted the Protoss gets his first unit AT 6.50 MINUTES and then warpgate isn't even finished!
Should the metagame not shift somewhat to punish greedy Protoss?
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On June 25 2012 20:42 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games... A general observation: hasn't Zerg become to focused on 3base "gogo Hive" giving Protoss all incentive to cut crazy corners to get a counter army? I've been losing at lot in ZvP with the 3base tactic and when I look at the replays Protoss pretty much always assumes I'm going 3base defensive he doesn't make any units and starts teching up crazy. Since a few days I've changed my ZvP to the old "Losira timing" (36 Roach/Sling allin) and from the last 20 or so ZvP's I've only lost one due to a retardedly long supply block. Now i'm only high diamond EU, but in the replay Amaterasu posted the Protoss gets his first unit AT 6.50 MINUTES and then warpgate isn't even finished! Should the metagame not shift somewhat to punish greedy Protoss?
I don't want this to come off the wrong way, but no. This may work at your level but is not necessarily true for all levels. What you are doing is metagaming, taking knowledge from outside what is known in game (like knowing a player always 6 pools, you wouldn't 15 hatch, right?) and adjusting your play to fit that. You should work on improving scouting and mechanics instead of trying to gain advantages over present builds/metagame.
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I agree with your general point that mechanics are more important than metagame, but you can't (or shouldn't) completely disregard it. My point is that Protoss across the board have shifted their metagame to counter a purely macro hive tech Zerg style, and that this offers interesting timings to exploit.
If you're simply referring to the best way to get into master league, then off course simply focusing on macro & mechanics is optimal from an individual perspective.
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On June 25 2012 21:45 Kraelog wrote:
I agree with your general point that mechanics are more important than metagame, but you can't (or shouldn't) completely disregard it. My point is that Protoss across the board have shifted their metagame to counter a purely macro hive tech Zerg style, and that this offers interesting timings to exploit.
If you're simply referring to the best way to get into master league, then off course simply focusing on macro & mechanics is optimal from an individual perspective.
You can metagame and do a 15gas/15pool/15hatch mass speedling build and get into grandmaster because of the metagame. That does not however mean you'll be very good.
The more reliant on assumptions (metagame) you make your playstyle, the worse off you'll be when it a
shifts or when you get metagamed yourself.
Metagaming is about winning. Mechanics are about improving.
I think that sums up my point very well.
+ Show Spoiler +I mean that quite literally, I have a friend in top GM (<16) from cheese alone
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On June 25 2012 20:42 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2012 10:57 Amaterasu1234 wrote:http://drop.sc/204781So, in this zvp, I take a quick fourth as the toss takes a quick 3rd and I do a quick tech to broods. Problem is...I'm not entirely sure how many infestors/broodlords I should have before I push out...if I'm supposed to push out at all. Late game zvp is where I lose the majority of my games... A general observation: hasn't Zerg become to focused on 3base "gogo Hive" giving Protoss all incentive to cut crazy corners to get a counter army? I've been losing at lot in ZvP with the 3base tactic and when I look at the replays Protoss pretty much always assumes I'm going 3base defensive he doesn't make any units and starts teching up crazy. Since a few days I've changed my ZvP to the old "Losira timing" (36 Roach/Sling allin) and from the last 20 or so ZvP's I've only lost one due to a retardedly long supply block. Now i'm only high diamond EU, but in the replay Amaterasu posted the Protoss gets his first unit AT 6.50 MINUTES and then warpgate isn't even finished! Should the metagame not shift somewhat to punish greedy Protoss?
Protoss gets greedy, zerg gets greedier.
Can't out-greed a zerg.
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EPT
